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No more viewer rule call ins - per USGA/R&A (Merged)

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#61 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:23 AM

View PostJerseyBoy, on 11 December 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

View PostJerseyBoy, on 11 December 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Effectively, this is a new rule that FORBIDS them from accepting phone calls.

Actually, the rule doesn't say that exactly. And again, nice deflection. Buck up. How would YOU do it?

From Golf Channel's story:

[font=&]
"The group – which includes the PGA Tour, European Tour, LPGA tour and PGA of America – also voted to stop considering viewer call-ins when processing potential rule violations."
[/font]

Now, let's agree that none of this -- before or after -- was governed by the Rules of Golf.  This new development is a "protocol," for tournament management.

Please read:
https://www.sbnation...v-call-ins-suck

And for the last time, because I'm getting tired of asking. What argument are you looking to win and what are you wanting to be right about?
So that is the "old" Decision from earlier in the year.  It had to do with technology, and high-def replays which were capable of "showing" things that a player, a fellow competitor and/or a rules official couldn't see with their own (naked) eyes.  It is a somewhat different issue, than the pure issue of whether to accept outside information concerning a Rules question.

And yes; of course; "SBNation" would reduce it to "Call ins suck."  Because, uh, SBNation.

As for the argument I am looking to win, the thesis would be this: While many general sports fans think it is outrageous that a phone call from a television viewer can impact the scoring and even the outcome of a professional golf tournament, those fans are mistaken in comparing "golf" to other games.  Golf does not rely on referees.  Golf is a game of self-imposed officiating and golf has a completely different history and development from other televised professional sporting events.  And from my purely personal viewpoint, I am fascinated by the intricacies of the Rules of Golf, and I am captivated by Rules controversies.  If any professional golfer is upset at the notion that a clearly-documented violation of the Rules should be overlooked simply because it was noticed by a television viewer, my opinion is that such a professional golfer does not understand the tradition of the game of golf.  He should stick to watching football on his 65" HDTV.


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#62 new2g0lf

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:30 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

View PostJerseyBoy, on 11 December 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

View PostJerseyBoy, on 11 December 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Effectively, this is a new rule that FORBIDS them from accepting phone calls.

Actually, the rule doesn't say that exactly. And again, nice deflection. Buck up. How would YOU do it?

From Golf Channel's story:

[font=&]
"The group – which includes the PGA Tour, European Tour, LPGA tour and PGA of America – also voted to stop considering viewer call-ins when processing potential rule violations."
[/font]

Now, let's agree that none of this -- before or after -- was governed by the Rules of Golf.  This new development is a "protocol," for tournament management.

Please read:
https://www.sbnation...v-call-ins-suck

And for the last time, because I'm getting tired of asking. What argument are you looking to win and what are you wanting to be right about?
So that is the "old" Decision from earlier in the year.  It had to do with technology, and high-def replays which were capable of "showing" things that a player, a fellow competitor and/or a rules official couldn't see with their own (naked) eyes.  It is a somewhat different issue, than the pure issue of whether to accept outside information concerning a Rules question.

And yes; of course; "SBNation" would reduce it to "Call ins suck."  Because, uh, SBNation.

As for the argument I am looking to win, the thesis would be this: While many general sports fans think it is outrageous that a phone call from a television viewer can impact the scoring and even the outcome of a professional golf tournament, those fans are mistaken in comparing "golf" to other games.  Golf does not rely on referees.  Golf is a game of self-imposed officiating and golf has a completely different history and development from other televised professional sporting events.  And from my purely personal viewpoint, I am fascinated by the intricacies of the Rules of Golf, and I am captivated by Rules controversies.  If any professional golfer is upset at the notion that a clearly-documented violation of the Rules should be overlooked simply because it was noticed by a television viewer, my opinion is that such a professional golfer does not understand the tradition of the game of golf.  He should stick to watching football on his 65" HDTV.

I would modify what I wrote in an earlier post

The game is supposed to be one of honor and fairness, the rules should equally apply to each player on the field regardless of position.  Allowing call ins resulted in disparate application of the rules and fairness due to variance in coverage, so I don't believe it was in the spirit of what golf was intended to be.[/font]

Edited by new2g0lf, 11 December 2017 - 11:31 AM.

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#63 MattyO1984

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:31 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

View PostMattyO1984, on 11 December 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

...

You'll be sailing against the wind with this one I suspect!

Doesn't bother me in the slightest.  I think that there are a lot of casual golfers who freak out about the notion of a ball rollback too.  I'm not looking to make friends.  I'm looking to be right and win arguments.


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#64 ChronicSlicer

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:35 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

  And lesser players were ignored by telecast directors.  But ordinarily, they are showing all of the important players, and all of the important shots in a tournament.  And recording them. And really, aren't those the ones that really count?  Do we honestly care so much about a guy who is finishing 20th, or 50th?


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#65 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:39 AM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 December 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

...

I would modify what I wrote in an earlier post

The game is supposed to be one of honor and fairness, the rules should equally apply to each player on the field regardless of position.  Allowing call ins resulted in disparate application of the rules and fairness due to variance in coverage, so I don't believe it was in the spirit of what golf was intended to be.[/font]

I agree; honor and fairness.  And yes, the Rules should apply equally.  And yes, there is some disparate attention paid to some groups.  But almost always, the "disparate attention" is being paid to the people for whom it matters most; contenders in major events.  So that doesn't bother me at all.  Call-ins don't change the Rules.  Call ins only result in application of the Rules, as designed, in more situations.  So far, nobody has touched my challenge to name an instance in which a call-in resulted in an incorrect decision under the Rules.

So we can disagree on the "spirit of golf" otherwise.  I expected disagreement.  Lots of it.


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#66 JerseyBoy

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:42 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

As for the argument I am looking to win, the thesis would be this: While many general sports fans think it is outrageous that a phone call from a television viewer can impact the scoring and even the outcome of a professional golf tournament, those fans are mistaken in comparing "golf" to other games.  Golf does not rely on referees.  Golf is a game of self-imposed officiating and golf has a completely different history and development from other televised professional sporting events.  And from my purely personal viewpoint, I am fascinated by the intricacies of the Rules of Golf, and I am captivated by Rules controversies.  If any professional golfer is upset at the notion that a clearly-documented violation of the Rules should be overlooked simply because it was noticed by a television viewer, my opinion is that such a professional golfer does not understand the tradition of the game of golf.  He should stick to watching football on his 65" HDTV.

Then you have an erroneous assumption about the rules of Golf, sir. Thereby your argument fails. Golf is about self governance. The integrity of the game is paramount and each person is responsible to know and follow the rules, to the point of calling rules violations on themselves.

That being said, there are rules officials on premise to aid in that regard. A national audience should not be involved. Truthfully, a terrible error was made that caused a player to lose a Major Tournament through no fault of her own. And ONLY because of a television viewer. That is certainly NOT in the spirit of the game, and as such, the rules have been modified to reflect that.

What's interesting is that you think you're right, even though the governing body of Golf disagrees and has changed the rule to reflect that. But, by all means, carry on with having to be right and winning arguments.

Edited by JerseyBoy, 11 December 2017 - 11:44 AM.


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#67 heavy_hitter

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:43 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

View PostMattyO1984, on 11 December 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

...

You'll be sailing against the wind with this one I suspect!

Doesn't bother me in the slightest.  I think that there are a lot of casual golfers who freak out about the notion of a ball rollback too.  I'm not looking to make friends.  I'm looking to be right and win arguments.

View Postpureroll, on 11 December 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

This seems like yet another dumb occasion on which dumb sports fans and dumb sports writers who are only the most casual golfers (and whose knowledge of the Rules is dangerously low-level) have stampeded the USGA, the R&A and the tours into a public relations decision.

LOL i'm offended calling me dumb.......a little humility here dude. Too bad you are in the minority.  Golf is struggling to keep a solid base of growing the game and these instances on TV have made the casual golfer shake their head.  I think the tour and the tour players are fully capable of being jury and judge without our/your input.  It is good to know they are smarter than you.

I don't care the least bit about being in "the minority."  I expect that we proponents of a ball rollback are "in the minority" as well.  I don't want to be popular; I want to be right.

What I don't understand about your reply is what exactly is the problem with making "the casual golfer shake his head"?  If I see what I think is a Rules violation, and notify an official, why is that wrong?  I assuredly won't call any penalty; either the player will himself, or a tournament official, armed with all of the facts (including the facts which I supplied and they did not have) will assess a penalty.  Where is the terrible problem in any of that?

The problem is.... "You are wrong"!!  You aren't even close to being correct on this one.

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#68 Bye

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:43 AM

I'm not fussed either way by this.

Just to show that it's not always a bad thing, just imagine how bad this situation would have been we're it not for a knowledgable viewer.

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#69 North Butte

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:45 AM

Contenders in major championships only matter the most because that's who you most want to catch out in some incredibly minor infraction. The spirit of golf requires equity in application of the Rules, Period. The fact you want a handful of highly visible professional athletes each year singled out for special Rules scrutiny indicates your own contempt for the game that you pretend to care about.
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#70 DON SVO

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:47 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 December 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

...

I would modify what I wrote in an earlier post

The game is supposed to be one of honor and fairness, the rules should equally apply to each player on the field regardless of position.  Allowing call ins resulted in disparate application of the rules and fairness due to variance in coverage, so I don't believe it was in the spirit of what golf was intended to be.[/font]

I agree; honor and fairness.  And yes, the Rules should apply equally.  And yes, there is some disparate attention paid to some groups.  But almost always, the "disparate attention" is being paid to the people for whom it matters most; contenders in major events.  So that doesn't bother me at all.  Call-ins don't change the Rules.  Call ins only result in application of the Rules, as designed, in more situations.  So far, nobody has touched my challenge to name an instance in which a call-in resulted in an incorrect decision under the Rules.

So we can disagree on the "spirit of golf" otherwise.  I expected disagreement.  Lots of it.

This little bold part is where the focus needs to be, and you continually gloss over it.

A LOT of people do not like the FACT that TV call-ins are discriminatory and prejudiced due to the inability to cover all golfers fairly. Your position that the 10 guys at the top of the leader board are the only ones that matter is ignorant and invalidates pretty much everything you're standing behind... which is why the rule was enacted in the first place.

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#71 bandrz

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:00 PM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 December 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

The decision was long overdue and only necessary since the move to HD cameras and broadcasts.  You could barely make out peoples faces on the old NTSC broadcasts, no less whether a ball moved but with HD and all the cameras following around golfers it became a problem.  As we move into 4K or higher, this problem would only get worse

The problem I had with giving armchair rules officials the ability to call in was the disparity of the coverage.  The most popular golfers and those in the lead were placed under much greater scrutiny than others who could be just as guilty of rules infractions but would never get caught because they didn't have multiple HD cameras following their every move and getting aired to home viewers.  

I willingly accept that some infractions may be missed in order to ensure a better sense of fairness is applied overall to the field.

So that is a notion with some merit.  But it is a bit limited.  Yes; in the era that Tiger was at his peak (and perhaps even still) television loved Tiger and showed every shot he played.  And so maybe Tiger got some additional scrutiny.  (And a huge gallery who could roll boulders in the Arizona desert, too!)  And lesser players were ignored by telecast directors.  But ordinarily, they are showing all of the important players, and all of the important shots in a tournament.  And recording them.  And really, aren't those the ones that really count?  Do we honestly care so much about a guy who is finishing 20th, or 50th?

I am reminded of a story from Augusta.  Long, long ago a player had an on-course question about something and one of the Masters Tournament committeemen came over to provide a ruling.  The player described the question, and then the committeeman asked, "Where do you stand right now?"  The player replied, "I'm five over."  "Oh, hell," the committeeman said, "You can do whatever you want in that case."

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#72 new2g0lf

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:08 PM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 December 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

...

I would modify what I wrote in an earlier post

The game is supposed to be one of honor and fairness, the rules should equally apply to each player on the field regardless of position.  Allowing call ins resulted in disparate application of the rules and fairness due to variance in coverage, so I don't believe it was in the spirit of what golf was intended to be.[/font]

I agree; honor and fairness.  And yes, the Rules should apply equally.  And yes, there is some disparate attention paid to some groups.  But almost always, the "disparate attention" is being paid to the people for whom it matters most; contenders in major events.  So that doesn't bother me at all.  Call-ins don't change the Rules.  Call ins only result in application of the Rules, as designed, in more situations.  So far, nobody has touched my challenge to name an instance in which a call-in resulted in an incorrect decision under the Rules.

So we can disagree on the "spirit of golf" otherwise.  I expected disagreement.  Lots of it.

I don't think position in the field matters when it comes to application of the rules.  If you can't ensure fair and equal application then the players are not competing with equal enforcement of the rules.

The debate is really about whether golf is better served placing a small minority of players under severe scrutiny of rules infringement or if it's more important that each player be held to the same level of scrutiny.
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#73 bladehunter

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:09 PM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

View Postgolfer07840, on 11 December 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm not looking to make friends.  I'm looking to be right and win arguments.


So you're not a fan of the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" ?

Look, I've seen dozens of these threads.  With casual golfers all wondering why golf isn't like football.  I am well aware that with sportstalk radio, and the internet, vast majorities have convinced themselves that it is an outrage that a television viewer's telephone call could impact a professional sporting event.  In my view, it is because they don't really understand the Rules of Golf and the nature of golf.

I know perfectly well what I am up against.  Just like the ball/technology debate.


I don't understand why or how you can be a traditionalist as I am on the tech , ball etc debate.  AND yet be so progressive on this topic.  Wanting tech to invade the game further with TV call ins is akin to allowing super balls for tour use and raising Cor to 2.0 something.  


I've said at least ten times on this subject.

I'd be ok with call ins IF.  Each players every shot is televised ...if there is a short window of time.  Say 2 hours after each round that all rules rulings must be finalized.  And they do away with the incorrect card rule.  To allow things to be called after the fact is just wrong.  Period.

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#74 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:10 PM

You guys seem to think that I want to excuse some Rules violations at the bottom of the field in Tour events.  I don't.  I'm not excusing, or encouraging, any Rules violations anywhere.  I do understand that not every shot from every member of the field is broadcast on television.  Only a small percentage of shots are broadcast.  But most of the most important shots are broadcast.  Which is pretty good, with an eye toward championship-determining play.

At the same time, all of you are proposing to IGNORE certain Rules violations, among the tournament leaders, if and when those violations come to the attention of tournament officials from a phone call.  Most particularly including a phone call from a preeminent Rules expert like David Eger.

I'm very happy with my view on which of those two formulations I'd like to defend.

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#75 farmer

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:11 PM

One issue with call-ins is that what we see during a telecast is greatly influenced by camera angle and focal length of the camera in question.  What you think you see, particularly with long focal lengths, is not at all what you would see standing over the ball.  C'mon 15th, you're just trolling.  You will never "win" nor be "right".


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#76 North Butte

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:13 PM

I guarantee you that next week's events on all the professional Tours will result in literally dozens of Rules violations (most so picayune they affect the outcome not at all) that will be IGNORED because nobody happened to be obsessively re-watching zoomed in super-slow-motion HD video of the moment when they occurred.

I am perfectly fine with that.
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#77 the bishop

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:15 PM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

You guys seem to think that I want to excuse some Rules violations at the bottom of the field in Tour events.  I don't.  I'm not excusing, or encouraging, any Rules violations anywhere.  I do understand that not every shot from every member of the field is broadcast on television.  Only a small percentage of shots are broadcast.  But most of the most important shots are broadcast.  Which is pretty good, with an eye toward championship-determining play.

At the same time, all of you are proposing to IGNORE certain Rules violations, among the tournament leaders, if and when those violations come to the attention of tournament officials from a phone call.  Most particularly including a phone call from a preeminent Rules expert like David Eger.

I'm very happy with my view on which of those two formulations I'd like to defend.
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#78 Outlier

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:17 PM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

I am sorry to see this change.  I fully understand that baseball, football and basketball would never countenance people calling in what they saw.  I don't expect, or want, golf to be anything like professional football, baseball or basketball.  

I confess to taking some pleasure in all of the general sports fans who freaked out over someone like David Eger, who has forgotten more Rules of Golf information than most people will ever know, calling in to people he knew at Augusta with what he absolutely and clearly understood was a Rules violation with Tiger Woods on the 15th hole.

I learned from these Rules issues.  And all that I ever wanted was the correct Rules result.  I never viewed golf as a passive pro-sports entertainment; I viewed golf as a large community, and that viewers who were knowledgeable about the Rules had as much right as anybody -- indeed, a responsibility -- to point out Rules violations.

And I never, ever understood any risk from that state of affairs.  TV viewers don't assess penalties.  All that TV viewers do, is to call out facts as they see them (and as they are inevitably recorded on digital video).  It is only players and tournament officials who call penalties.  To ignore viewer calls is to say effectively, "We don't want to be aware of all of the facts."

What is going to happen, when a television announcer -- not a fan at home -- sees a Rules infraction on his monitor, and says something about it?  What if Mike Davis is sitting next to the announcer when that announcer sees a violation?  What if a retired tour player is sitting at home, watching the event, and calls that announcer, who is sitting next to Mike Davis?  Golf does not have umpires everywhere.  Golf is not like other sports.

A Rules violation is a Rules violation is a Rules violation.  It doesn't become "not a violation" depending on who notices it.

This seems like yet another dumb occasion on which dumb sports fans and dumb sports writers who are only the most casual golfers (and whose knowledge of the Rules is dangerously low-level) have stampeded the USGA, the R&A and the tours into a public relations decision.

At least you "confessed".  In your example, i do take solace in that the "accuser" was not anonymous.  To my thinking, "secrecy" by definition can never be a fair and equitable way of arbitrating. Why is the USGA not telling all about these emails, call-in tips etc.  I feel certain they are hiding the truth for a reason.  No doubt in my mind there was more at play with the Lexi call than simply a viewer with a sharp eye.  

It is too tempting to connect the dots and think somebody in the group figured 4 stroke penalty is greater than 2 stroke penalty.  Statistically speaking, if it were that obvious on TV,  I find it hard to believe only 1 person of the entire viewership noticed.

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#79 JerseyBoy

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:22 PM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:


At the same time, all of you are proposing to IGNORE certain Rules violations, among the tournament leaders, if and when those violations come to the attention of tournament officials from a phone call.  Most particularly including a phone call from a preeminent Rules expert like David Eger.



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#80 bladehunter

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:23 PM

View PostBye, on 11 December 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

I'm not fussed either way by this.

Just to show that it's not always a bad thing, just imagine how bad this situation would have been we're it not for a knowledgable viewer.

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The ambiguity of the rule allows that situation to exist.  Proper iron clad rule would've been " to place the ball directly behind or beside the spot of last strike no farther than 2 inches away. ". As in on the side or back of the divot.  Letting someone " drop as near as possible " is grey.  Brings on so many questions.  Do you drop behind and hope it rolls close. Do you drop on the divot and hope it hops just out.? Do you drop and watch it roll 3 feet closer to the hole ?   I'd say a drop in a 3 foot circle is anyone's bet guess as to what drop spot will end up closest to the divot.  We are talking a 6 foot drop here on a slope that probably ran 8-9 on a stimp  meter.

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#81 Outlier

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:27 PM

View Postbogeypro, on 11 December 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

I think it's great.  

Also, lets not overlook the new rule to not assess the 2 stroke penalty for signing an incorrect score card for a penalty the player didn't know they had committed.

Finally, I wish Golf channel and people on this forum would stop using Lexi as an example... she cheated and deserved to have the strokes called on her.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone in her playing group called it in on her.  I'm sure they knew the LPGA wouldn't come down on their media darling Lexi for possible cheating violations.

if what you suggest was the case happened, is it OK that they waited to get her 4 strokes instead of speaking up when it happened and getting her assessed 2 strokes?  I am curious where you draw the line on doing the right thing.Did the rules contemplate waiting to mention a violation til it had maximum effect?  Did the rule contemplate having a surrogate do it for you?

Edited by Outlier, 11 December 2017 - 12:30 PM.


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#82 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:29 PM

View PostOutlier, on 11 December 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

I am sorry to see this change.  I fully understand that baseball, football and basketball would never countenance people calling in what they saw.  I don't expect, or want, golf to be anything like professional football, baseball or basketball.  

I confess to taking some pleasure in all of the general sports fans who freaked out over someone like David Eger, who has forgotten more Rules of Golf information than most people will ever know, calling in to people he knew at Augusta with what he absolutely and clearly understood was a Rules violation with Tiger Woods on the 15th hole.

I learned from these Rules issues.  And all that I ever wanted was the correct Rules result.  I never viewed golf as a passive pro-sports entertainment; I viewed golf as a large community, and that viewers who were knowledgeable about the Rules had as much right as anybody -- indeed, a responsibility -- to point out Rules violations.

And I never, ever understood any risk from that state of affairs.  TV viewers don't assess penalties.  All that TV viewers do, is to call out facts as they see them (and as they are inevitably recorded on digital video).  It is only players and tournament officials who call penalties.  To ignore viewer calls is to say effectively, "We don't want to be aware of all of the facts."

What is going to happen, when a television announcer -- not a fan at home -- sees a Rules infraction on his monitor, and says something about it?  What if Mike Davis is sitting next to the announcer when that announcer sees a violation?  What if a retired tour player is sitting at home, watching the event, and calls that announcer, who is sitting next to Mike Davis?  Golf does not have umpires everywhere.  Golf is not like other sports.

A Rules violation is a Rules violation is a Rules violation.  It doesn't become "not a violation" depending on who notices it.

This seems like yet another dumb occasion on which dumb sports fans and dumb sports writers who are only the most casual golfers (and whose knowledge of the Rules is dangerously low-level) have stampeded the USGA, the R&A and the tours into a public relations decision.

At least you "confessed".  In your example, i do take solace in that the "accuser" was not anonymous.  To my thinking, "secrecy" by definition can never be a fair and equitable way of arbitrating. Why is the USGA not telling all about these emails, call-in tips etc.  I feel certain they are hiding the truth for a reason.  No doubt in my mind there was more at play with the Lexi call than simply a viewer with a sharp eye.  

It is too tempting to connect the dots and think somebody in the group figured 4 stroke penalty is greater than 2 stroke penalty.  Statistically speaking, if it were that obvious on TV,  I find it hard to believe only 1 person of the entire viewership noticed.

So you are noting the problem of super high-def recording.  Which the USGA started to deal with, last spring.  I agree with the direction of their efforts.

And secondly, you are noting the problem of later-noted Rules violations.  And again, I have already stated that I favor addressing that in a reasonable and non-punitive way.

And as an aside, you seem to be bothered by some sort of anonymity.  I really don't care about the anonymity of anyone reporting a Rules violation.  The only reason that I have mentioned David Eger several times is in response to the frankly ignorant argument that the only people who call in Rules violation suspicions are people living in basements with nothing else to do.

The simple fact is, nobody in a basement is ever going to impose a penalty in a televised golf tournament.  Only a player, or a tournament official, or both, will ever do that.  And they will only do it based on clear and convincing video evidence.  Who cares who called it in?  Either it's a penalty (in which case it should be enforced) or not (in which case, no big deal).

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#83 sui generis

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:30 PM

The ruling bodies (and the various pro circuses) may have reason to suspect that the sports gambling industry has availed itself of the call-in to influence the outcome of some TV golf. Lexi's screw-up comes to mind.
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#84 augustgolf

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:32 PM

View PostJerseyBoy, on 11 December 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

As for the argument I am looking to win, the thesis would be this: While many general sports fans think it is outrageous that a phone call from a television viewer can impact the scoring and even the outcome of a professional golf tournament, those fans are mistaken in comparing "golf" to other games.  Golf does not rely on referees.  Golf is a game of self-imposed officiating and golf has a completely different history and development from other televised professional sporting events.  And from my purely personal viewpoint, I am fascinated by the intricacies of the Rules of Golf, and I am captivated by Rules controversies.  If any professional golfer is upset at the notion that a clearly-documented violation of the Rules should be overlooked simply because it was noticed by a television viewer, my opinion is that such a professional golfer does not understand the tradition of the game of golf.  He should stick to watching football on his 65" HDTV.

Then you have an erroneous assumption about the rules of Golf, sir. Thereby your argument fails. Golf is about self governance. The integrity of the game is paramount and each person is responsible to know and follow the rules, to the point of calling rules violations on themselves.

That being said, there are rules officials on premise to aid in that regard. A national audience should not be involved. Truthfully, a terrible error was made that caused a player to lose a Major Tournament through no fault of her own. And ONLY because of a television viewer. That is certainly NOT in the spirit of the game, and as such, the rules have been modified to reflect that.

What's interesting is that you think you're right, even though the governing body of Golf disagrees and has changed the rule to reflect that. But, by all means, carry on with having to be right and winning arguments.

Lexi's "mistake" cost her a tournament, but she was penalized for a failure to follow the rules correctly, then penalized again for signing an incorrect scorecard.

Dustin Johnson still won the US Open, altho he was unfairly penalized for a situation exactly like another FC's situation who didn't get penalize.
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#85 bladehunter

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:37 PM

View Postsui generis, on 11 December 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

The ruling bodies (and the various pro circuses) may have reason to suspect that the sports gambling industry has availed itself of the call-in to influence the outcome of some TV golf. Lexi's screw-up comes to mind.

Precisely my thoughts.  If you don't think that they have people watching for violations now on every single round played , your nuts.   And it's on hopes of seeing something and then placing a bet knowing that the call in will result in a certain outcome.  Especially since the outcome can be effected hours later.  Remember. You can bet on anything.  What place someone finishes. If they finish.  What place they finish a certain round. Even what they make the turn at.  And much much more.

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#86 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:42 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 11 December 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

View Postsui generis, on 11 December 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

The ruling bodies (and the various pro circuses) may have reason to suspect that the sports gambling industry has availed itself of the call-in to influence the outcome of some TV golf. Lexi's screw-up comes to mind.

Precisely my thoughts.  If you don't think that they have people watching for violations now on every single round played , your nuts.   And it's on hopes of seeing something and then placing a bet knowing that the call in will result in a certain outcome.  Especially since the outcome can be effected hours later.  Remember. You can bet on anything.  What place someone finishes. If they finish.  What place they finish a certain round. Even what they make the turn at.  And much much more.

That's a gaming industry problem.  They should not be accepting those bets, if that sort of corruption can take place.  But I don't see it.  I've never seen evidence of such a bet.  And again, no matter what, a caller does not determine a penalty.  Only a tournament official determines a penalty.  Usually with input from the affected player.

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#87 lumberman2462

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:43 PM

Hey...this is progress.

Now if we can just get the stroke and distance changed on OB - I might actually start playing again.
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#88 bermuda

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:48 PM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

Do we honestly care so much about a guy who is finishing 20th, or 50th?


What about the guy in 70th place on Friday?

That's like saying NFL referees shouldn't call holding on the Cleveland Browns.

Edited by bermuda, 11 December 2017 - 12:50 PM.


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#89 sui generis

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:51 PM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 11 December 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

View Postsui generis, on 11 December 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

The ruling bodies (and the various pro circuses) may have reason to suspect that the sports gambling industry has availed itself of the call-in to influence the outcome of some TV golf. Lexi's screw-up comes to mind.

Precisely my thoughts.  If you don't think that they have people watching for violations now on every single round played , your nuts.   And it's on hopes of seeing something and then placing a bet knowing that the call in will result in a certain outcome.  Especially since the outcome can be effected hours later.  Remember. You can bet on anything.  What place someone finishes. If they finish.  What place they finish a certain round. Even what they make the turn at.  And much much more.

That's a gaming industry problem.  They should not be accepting those bets, if that sort of corruption can take place.  But I don't see it.  I've never seen evidence of such a bet.  And again, no matter what, a caller does not determine a penalty.  Only a tournament official determines a penalty.  Usually with input from the affected player.

It's the world we live in. And, I suspect it'll only get worse. :(

Still, the tv stuff is just that and has no affect on our games or the events we referee. :)
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#90 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 01:00 PM

View Postbermuda, on 11 December 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

Do we honestly care so much about a guy who is finishing 20th, or 50th?


What about the guy in 70th place on Friday?

That's like saying NFL referees shouldn't call holding on the Cleveland Browns.

No, it really isn't.  Nowhere do I suggest that the Rules should be different, for different players.  Nowhere.  The simple fact is, with or without tv, some players get more eyeballs.  Be it in a gallery, or with walking officials, or television attention, or something else.  Indeed, tv is "watching" more than what is broadcast.  They have lots of recorded footage that is never seen by viewers.  The tv trucks are digesting hours and hours of unseen footage.

Again, what you guys are saying is that there are certain video-recorded events that you just do not want to know about.  At least, you don't want the Rules to be applied to them.  Because someone saw it on tv and called it in, and that offends your idea of what happens in other sports and games that you watch.


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