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No more viewer rule call ins - per USGA/R&A (Merged)

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#31 new2g0lf

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:41 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 December 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

The decision was long overdue and only necessary since the move to HD cameras and broadcasts.  You could barely make out peoples faces on the old NTSC broadcasts, no less whether a ball moved but with HD and all the cameras following around golfers it became a problem.  As we move into 4K or higher, this problem would only get worse

The problem I had with giving armchair rules officials the ability to call in was the disparity of the coverage.  The most popular golfers and those in the lead were placed under much greater scrutiny than others who could be just as guilty of rules infractions but would never get caught because they didn't have multiple HD cameras following their every move and getting aired to home viewers.  

I willingly accept that some infractions may be missed in order to ensure a better sense of fairness is applied overall to the field.

So that is a notion with some merit.  But it is a bit limited.  Yes; in the era that Tiger was at his peak (and perhaps even still) television loved Tiger and showed every shot he played.  And so maybe Tiger got some additional scrutiny.  (And a huge gallery who could roll boulders in the Arizona desert, too!)  And lesser players were ignored by telecast directors.  But ordinarily, they are showing all of the important players, and all of the important shots in a tournament.  And recording them.  And really, aren't those the ones that really count?  Do we honestly care so much about a guy who is finishing 20th, or 50th?

I am reminded of a story from Augusta.  Long, long ago a player had an on-course question about something and one of the Masters Tournament committeemen came over to provide a ruling.  The player described the question, and then the committeeman asked, "Where do you stand right now?"  The player replied, "I'm five over."  "Oh, hell," the committeeman said, "You can do whatever you want in that case."

Where we differ is I think we should care about the guy in 50th as much as we do the guys leading.  PGA Tour status is based on tournament earnings, we saw in the case of Ian Poulter that a few dollars can make a difference between keeping your tour card and not.  While the leaders are playing for millions, the guys in 50th and lower are playing to retain the ability to make a living, who has a greater motivation to overlook a potential rules infraction?

The game is supposed to be one of honor and fairness, the rules should equally apply to each player on the field regardless of position.  Allowing call ins resulted in disparate application of the rules and fairness, so I don't believe it was in the spirit of what golf was intended to be.

Edited by new2g0lf, 11 December 2017 - 09:46 AM.

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#32 cardoustie

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    haha, we don't play for 5's

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:43 AM

and let's not forget the stupidity that the 4 stroke penalty applied really on the first 3 rounds because after the 4th round is done and cards are signed the tournament is closed
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#33 DON SVO

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:45 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 December 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

The decision was long overdue and only necessary since the move to HD cameras and broadcasts.  You could barely make out peoples faces on the old NTSC broadcasts, no less whether a ball moved but with HD and all the cameras following around golfers it became a problem.  As we move into 4K or higher, this problem would only get worse

The problem I had with giving armchair rules officials the ability to call in was the disparity of the coverage.  The most popular golfers and those in the lead were placed under much greater scrutiny than others who could be just as guilty of rules infractions but would never get caught because they didn't have multiple HD cameras following their every move and getting aired to home viewers.  

I willingly accept that some infractions may be missed in order to ensure a better sense of fairness is applied overall to the field.

So that is a notion with some merit.  But it is a bit limited.  Yes; in the era that Tiger was at his peak (and perhaps even still) television loved Tiger and showed every shot he played.  And so maybe Tiger got some additional scrutiny.  (And a huge gallery who could roll boulders in the Arizona desert, too!)  And lesser players were ignored by telecast directors.  But ordinarily, they are showing all of the important players, and all of the important shots in a tournament.  And recording them. And really, aren't those the ones that really count?  Do we honestly care so much about a guy who is finishing 20th, or 50th?

I am reminded of a story from Augusta.  Long, long ago a player had an on-course question about something and one of the Masters Tournament committeemen came over to provide a ruling.  The player described the question, and then the committeeman asked, "Where do you stand right now?"  The player replied, "I'm five over."  "Oh, hell," the committeeman said, "You can do whatever you want in that case."

They all count, that's the issue I (and many many other people have) regarding using television coverage to act as a rules committee... it is far from "even and fair", in terms of player coverage.
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#34 cardoustie

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    haha, we don't play for 5's

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:45 AM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 December 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 December 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

The decision was long overdue and only necessary since the move to HD cameras and broadcasts.  You could barely make out peoples faces on the old NTSC broadcasts, no less whether a ball moved but with HD and all the cameras following around golfers it became a problem.  As we move into 4K or higher, this problem would only get worse

The problem I had with giving armchair rules officials the ability to call in was the disparity of the coverage.  The most popular golfers and those in the lead were placed under much greater scrutiny than others who could be just as guilty of rules infractions but would never get caught because they didn't have multiple HD cameras following their every move and getting aired to home viewers.  

I willingly accept that some infractions may be missed in order to ensure a better sense of fairness is applied overall to the field.

So that is a notion with some merit.  But it is a bit limited.  Yes; in the era that Tiger was at his peak (and perhaps even still) television loved Tiger and showed every shot he played.  And so maybe Tiger got some additional scrutiny.  (And a huge gallery who could roll boulders in the Arizona desert, too!)  And lesser players were ignored by telecast directors.  But ordinarily, they are showing all of the important players, and all of the important shots in a tournament.  And recording them.  And really, aren't those the ones that really count?  Do we honestly care so much about a guy who is finishing 20th, or 50th?

I am reminded of a story from Augusta.  Long, long ago a player had an on-course question about something and one of the Masters Tournament committeemen came over to provide a ruling.  The player described the question, and then the committeeman asked, "Where do you stand right now?"  The player replied, "I'm five over."  "Oh, hell," the committeeman said, "You can do whatever you want in that case."

Where we differ is I think we should care about the guy in 50th as much as we do the guys leading.  PGA Tour status is based on tournament earnings, we saw in the case of Ian Poulter that a few dollars can make a difference between keeping your tour card and not.  While the leaders are playing for millions, the guys in 50th and lower are playing to retain the ability to make a living, who has a greater motivation to overlook a potential rules infraction?

Not just playing for a living, but playing for world ranking positions which gets them into majors and big events in the following season etc etc.  The rules need to be THE SAME for every player in the field
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#35 JerseyBoy

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:46 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm looking to be right and win arguments.

Really? What argument are you looking to win and what are you looking to be "right" about? Both of those things are highly subjective when it comes to your opinion.

Your argument is that you are in favor of armchair refs. Is that accurate?

The problem with this notion is that Golf is a game of integrity. We read often about "intent" do we not? How is that factored into the game for the armchair rules official? Why even bother hiring rules officials at all? More eyes on it the better? Really? So you were on favor of what happened to Lexi? Should we now pause after each shot and take a random polling of everyone watching to make sure there were no rules violations? How do we reconcile that a penalty can be called the next day after the tournament round is over, and have it have such a "major" (pun intended) impact on the outcome of a tournament? Should we further slow play down and review each shot to make sure no rules were violated?

When there is an official called to make a ruling, should we also take another poll to see if everyone agrees with the ruling or if someone saw something different?

How do you see this play out in other professional sports. Should we delay the Super Bowl Winner announcement until everyone at home is satisfied with how the rules were enforced?

What do you want to be "right" about? Again, you are basing this on your opinion, which given certain arguments, can be wrong.

Edited by JerseyBoy, 11 December 2017 - 09:51 AM.


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#36 puttingmatt

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:48 AM

While It is a good decision for the USGA,  Cause policies are slow
With this group,  It will not solve the issues of penealties that  should
Be called on players for violations.  Had the governing bodies policies
Truly addressed player violations, there would have been no need for
The viewer to bother calling in .
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#37 North Butte

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:49 AM

Winning arguments on GolfWRX is right up there with winning auctions on eBay in terms of fulfilling life objectives.
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#38 JellyPig

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:50 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm looking to be right and win arguments.

Good luck with that.

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#39 sui generis

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:52 AM

View Postpureroll, on 11 December 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

Yea,  good for all.  No more arm chair refs.

http://www.golfchann...ewer-call-ins//

If we're willing to accept *golf then all's well and good. It's only just a TV show as we know. If we didn't watch this form of reality TV, how would we know what kind of automobile to buy or what ED pill was best? ;)

More importantly to all of us is this:

"In addition, a new local rule was announced that will discontinue the penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard when the player was unaware of the violation."

Now, that's a long overdue option for the Committee.
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#40 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:55 AM

View Postbogeypro, on 11 December 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

I think it's great.  

Also, lets not overlook the new rule to not assess the 2 stroke penalty for signing an incorrect score card for a penalty the player didn't know they had committed.

Finally, I wish Golf channel and people on this forum would stop using Lexi as an example... she cheated and deserved to have the strokes called on her.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone in her playing group called it in on her.  I'm sure they knew the LPGA wouldn't come down on their media darling Lexi for possible cheating violations.

If I am going to play the role of the heavy on this topic, I want to say that I AM ALL IN FAVOR of Rules changes that accommodate the issue of signing a card with a later-assessed penalty superseding the signed card.  I am all for reasonableness.  I don't want duplicative penalties piling up in connection with the mere signing/posting of a scorecard.  I remember, barely, Roberto DeVicenzo, Tommy Aaron and Bob Goalby.    And I won't comment on the Lexi case, necessarily.  People have their own views on that as I do.

But the discrete issue of viewer call-ins has to do with legit penalties based on real facts.


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#41 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:59 AM

Again, there are no "armchair refs" in golf.  There never have been.  People see things, and report them.  Championship golf and the professional tours have their own "refs."  Those officials can act on what they see, and on what they have been informed about.  Or not.  Folks at home do not make rulings.  They never have.

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#42 JerseyBoy

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:01 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

But the discrete issue of viewer call-ins has to do with legit penalties based on real facts.

So if after the fact a viewer sees a bad call by an Umpire which causes an outcome change, there should be a way, in baseball, to reverse the win?

Hindsight is 20/20, sir. Viewers have the luxury of a DVR and can watch things over and over and over again. That's why it's so important to have real time officiating. Once it's done, it's done.

How much time lapse would you suggest for a rules violation viewed by an armchair ref? An hour, a day, a week?

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#43 JerseyBoy

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:02 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

Again, there are no "armchair refs" in golf.  There never have been.  People see things, and report them.  Championship golf and the professional tours have their own "refs."  Those officials can act on what they see, and on what they have been informed about.  Or not.  Folks at home do not make rulings.  They never have.

Maybe they don't make the ruling, but they initiate more scrutiny. And that's a bad thing, if the day is done. As we saw.

So how long should the scrutiny be viable? An hour, a week, a month, a year? Are we going to take away trophies after the fact because someone called in a potential violation. Are you in favor of that?

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#44 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:16 AM

View PostJerseyBoy, on 11 December 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

But the discrete issue of viewer call-ins has to do with legit penalties based on real facts.

So if after the fact a viewer sees a bad call by an Umpire which causes an outcome change, there should be a way, in baseball, to reverse the win?

Hindsight is 20/20, sir. Viewers have the luxury of a DVR and can watch things over and over and over again. That's why it's so important to have real time officiating. Once it's done, it's done.

How much time lapse would you suggest for a rules violation viewed by an armchair ref? An hour, a day, a week?

Golf is not baseball.  Nor is it football, or basketball, or any of those other games.  

I said that in my first post on this topic.

Your "time lapse" question is up to the USGA, the R&A, the tours, and other golf-tournament officials.  I am not going to answer every hypothetical.

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#45 JerseyBoy

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:19 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

Your "time lapse" question is up to the USGA, the R&A, the tours, and other golf-tournament officials.  I am not going to answer every hypothetical.

Nice deflection. You are the one in favor of this. How would YOU do it? You are the one that has to win the argument and be right, remember?

"It is this way because I said so" is hardly a way to have a reasonable conversation.

Edited by JerseyBoy, 11 December 2017 - 10:20 AM.


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#46 North Butte

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:23 AM

Under the new procedure, if you think you see some out-and-out cheating while watching TV (not talking about someone missing their re-mark spot by 1/16" or a ball rocking forward one dimple after it has been addressed) then here's what I suggest you do. Make a video capture, blow it up as far as the HDTV picture will allow and then get on every type of Social Media you can access and accuse the player of cheating.

That'll make you feel almost as potent calling in to the TV network and if you're right that player will be shamed forever and hounded into obscurity by the wrath of the public and their fellow players.

Or you may look like a blowhard dumbass living in his mom's basement. Social Media can be very fickle that way...
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#47 JerseyBoy

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:24 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 11 December 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

Or you may look like a blowhard dumbass living in his mom's basement. Social Media can be very fickle that way...

This.

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#48 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:25 AM

View PostJerseyBoy, on 11 December 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

Your "time lapse" question is up to the USGA, the R&A, the tours, and other golf-tournament officials.  I am not going to answer every hypothetical.

Nice deflection. You are the one in favor of this. How would YOU do it? You are the one that has to win the argument and be right, remember?

"It is this way because I said so" is hardly a way to have a reasonable conversation.

It is not any way, merely "because I said so."  Again, rules officials can simply refuse to consider information if it is so untimely as to be ridiculous.  For the umpteenth time, fans are not calling penalties.  Officials are calling penalties.  Doing so, within their discretion.  There was never a rule that required them to take phone calls.  Effectively, this is a new rule that FORBIDS them from accepting phone calls.

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#49 JerseyBoy

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:28 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Effectively, this is a new rule that FORBIDS them from accepting phone calls.

Actually, the rule doesn't say that exactly. And again, nice deflection. Buck up. How would YOU do it?

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#50 golfer07840

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:32 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:


I'm not looking to make friends.  I'm looking to be right and win arguments.


So you're not a fan of the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" ?


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#51 Lacey Underall

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:35 AM

I'll never understand why changes like this take so much time.  And why do we wait until the USGA lays down the law?  All the PGA Tour had to do is just not answer the phone!
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#52 mukster

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:35 AM

I for one am disappointed, as it is going to reduce the hysterical  arguments on this forum I have come to love.
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#53 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:38 AM

View PostJerseyBoy, on 11 December 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Effectively, this is a new rule that FORBIDS them from accepting phone calls.

Actually, the rule doesn't say that exactly. And again, nice deflection. Buck up. How would YOU do it?

From Golf Channel's story:

[font=&]

"The group – which includes the PGA Tour, European Tour, LPGA tour and PGA of America – also voted to stop considering viewer call-ins when processing potential rule violations."

[/font]


Now, let's agree that none of this -- before or after -- was governed by the Rules of Golf.  This new development is a "protocol," for tournament management.

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#54 youngwaldo

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:42 AM

Thank goodness no more call ins. Players and rules officials following them should decide on the rule at that moment.  Sign the card when done. Round over.  No hey wait an hour ago or yesterday I saw this. Its over.  Great call and cant wait until January 1 to be enforced.

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#55 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:45 AM

View Postgolfer07840, on 11 December 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm not looking to make friends.  I'm looking to be right and win arguments.


So you're not a fan of the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" ?

Look, I've seen dozens of these threads.  With casual golfers all wondering why golf isn't like football.  I am well aware that with sportstalk radio, and the internet, vast majorities have convinced themselves that it is an outrage that a television viewer's telephone call could impact a professional sporting event.  In my view, it is because they don't really understand the Rules of Golf and the nature of golf.

I know perfectly well what I am up against.  Just like the ball/technology debate.


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#56 North Butte

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:47 AM

I would argue that someone in favor of golf tournaments being decided only by the players and the Committee, with no outside interference from TV networks and random bystanders, understands the game of golf at a much more meaningful level than someone who stays awake a night worrying that someone, somewhere, might be getting away with an inadvertent Rules violation that nobody noticed at the time.
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#57 JerseyBoy

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:52 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

View PostJerseyBoy, on 11 December 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Effectively, this is a new rule that FORBIDS them from accepting phone calls.

Actually, the rule doesn't say that exactly. And again, nice deflection. Buck up. How would YOU do it?

From Golf Channel's story:

[font=&]
"The group – which includes the PGA Tour, European Tour, LPGA tour and PGA of America – also voted to stop considering viewer call-ins when processing potential rule violations."
[/font]

Now, let's agree that none of this -- before or after -- was governed by the Rules of Golf.  This new development is a "protocol," for tournament management.

Please read:
https://www.sbnation...v-call-ins-suck

And for the last time, because I'm getting tired of asking. What argument are you looking to win and what are you wanting to be right about?

Edited by JerseyBoy, 11 December 2017 - 10:54 AM.


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#58 MrJones

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:03 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

View Postgolfer07840, on 11 December 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm not looking to make friends.  I'm looking to be right and win arguments.


So you're not a fan of the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" ?

Look, I've seen dozens of these threads.  With casual golfers all wondering why golf isn't like football.  I am well aware that with sportstalk radio, and the internet, vast majorities have convinced themselves that it is an outrage that a television viewer's telephone call could impact a professional sporting event.  In my view, it is because they don't really understand the Rules of Golf and the nature of golf.

I know perfectly well what I am up against.  Just like the ball/technology debate.
Would it surprise you to know that many tour players also dislike the call ins?
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#59 the bishop

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:09 AM

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

View Postgolfer07840, on 11 December 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm not looking to make friends.  I'm looking to be right and win arguments.


So you're not a fan of the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" ?

Look, I've seen dozens of these threads.  With casual golfers all wondering why golf isn't like football.  I am well aware that with sportstalk radio, and the internet, vast majorities have convinced themselves that it is an outrage that a television viewer's telephone call could impact a professional sporting event.  In my view, it is because they don't really understand the Rules of Golf and the nature of golf.

I know perfectly well what I am up against.  Just like the ball/technology debate.
People respect your right to an opinion.  It didn't prevail.  Too bad.
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#60 15th Club

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:10 AM

View PostMrJones, on 11 December 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

View Postgolfer07840, on 11 December 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Post15th Club, on 11 December 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm not looking to make friends.  I'm looking to be right and win arguments.


So you're not a fan of the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" ?

Look, I've seen dozens of these threads.  With casual golfers all wondering why golf isn't like football.  I am well aware that with sportstalk radio, and the internet, vast majorities have convinced themselves that it is an outrage that a television viewer's telephone call could impact a professional sporting event.  In my view, it is because they don't really understand the Rules of Golf and the nature of golf.

I know perfectly well what I am up against.  Just like the ball/technology debate.
Would it surprise you to know that many tour players also dislike the call ins?

No it would not!  Not at all!  I'm not a tour player.  Sometimes I agree with them.  Sometimes I don't.  Sometimes they don't agree amongst themselves.


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