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Good article on what it takes to play college women's golf


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#1 CTgolf

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 06:39 AM

http://www.golfwrx.c...-i-womens-golf/

A couple interesting points:

"Last year, the average National Junior Golf Score Board (NJGS) ranking for a player who signed at a Division I Institution was 589."

#589 average rank for *all* of last year's D1 signees (not just early signees which he mentions is #186 for this year so far) is not as high as I would have thought, and I assume this is overall ranking and not class/year rank(? - if not means the bar is even lower to compete).  Would be interested to know the median.  


"Upon first glance at the list, one cannot help but see a strong preference for the top players to also pick strong academic schools."

I noticed this before when looking at player rankings and where they end up playing in college.  Particularly for women, it seems like better players gravitate to more elite academic institutions (as opposed to athletic powerhouses that might better prepare them to be a touring pro).  Presumably this is due to fewer and less lucrative options for women professionals who want to pursue a career in golf?  For men, it seems like, with just a few exceptions, the best players go to powerhouse athletic schools that will prepare them the best for a future in golf as opposed to top academic universities (i.e. the avg ranking needed to play at a top academic school is lower for men than it is for women).


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#2 iteachgolf

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 08:09 AM

Why does that seem high to you?  There are 235 D1 womenís golf programs.  And many of the ranked players arenít seniors. Those schools have to find players somewhere.  Teams average 2-3 signees a year.  Which with 235 teams, and a lot of ranked players not being seniors, seems right.

And many of the top womenís golf programs also happen to be top academic schools.  The top golfers are going to go to Duke, Stanford, UCLA, and Florida.  All of which have strong academics but they get chosen because they are also great golf programs.  Throw in schools like Northwestern and Furman as well.  The 100th ranked LPGA Tour player on the money list makes less than most would make by graduating from a top school with the connections they provide.  Add in the travel, expenses, and time away from family the $65,000 a year (being generous) they (100th on $ list) take home isnít worth it for many.

Edited by iteachgolf, 02 December 2017 - 08:11 AM.


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#3 CTgolf

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 08:37 AM

Men's early signings by comparison:

http://www.golfwrx.c...signing-period/

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#4 CTgolf

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 08:39 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 02 December 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

Why does that seem high to you?  There are 235 D1 women's golf programs.  And many of the ranked players aren't seniors. Those schools have to find players somewhere.  Teams average 2-3 signees a year.  Which with 235 teams, and a lot of ranked players not being seniors, seems right.

And many of the top women's golf programs also happen to be top academic schools.  The top golfers are going to go to Duke, Stanford, UCLA, and Florida.  All of which have strong academics but they get chosen because they are also great golf programs.  Throw in schools like Northwestern and Furman as well.  The 100th ranked LPGA Tour player on the money list makes less than most would make by graduating from a top school with the connections they provide.  Add in the travel, expenses, and time away from family the $65,000 a year (being generous) they (100th on $ list) take home isn't worth it for many.

I was surprised that #589 was the average and not the cutoff.  Presumably the cutoff would then be in #800-900 range (or even higher?).

I agree with you that the numbers are such that only the truly top talent in among girls' juniors should focus on maximizing their golfing potential in picking which school to attend.

Edited by CTgolf, 02 December 2017 - 09:43 AM.


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#5 iteachgolf

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 08:49 AM

Rankings are flawed metric. I have a girl ranked 1800 who is getting D1 and D2 interest.  Doesnt have a lot of money and hasnít played big ranked events.  Many events she plays are supposed to be ranked but donít get enough girls to be ranked.  Sheís played really well in smaller events and her scoring average is getting notice (mid 70s) regionally even if ranking isnít that high.  

I also have a player who is one of top girls in the country but who got hurt and was sidelined for almost a year.  Her ranking plummeted but interest didnít.  Sheís now back ranked top 30 in class and played US junior and US womenís Am this year.  

Thereís a ton of ways a ranking wonít accurately reflect a players ability.  There will be players ranked over 1,000 who play D1 golf both guys and girls.


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#6 BNGL

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 09:12 AM

There not just going to D1 programs either, the elite D2 schools are able to get top talent as well. Our women's college team was elite of the elite according to golfstats metrics, had three ladies that averaged sub 74 and the 4-5 players would ham and egg rounds in mid 70s. I think they won like 6-7 events in a row?

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#7 dpb5031

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 09:30 AM

iTeach is correct about rankings; they don't always tell the full story and although important, many coaches look beyond rankings. They look for things like overall athleticism, power, and potential upside.

Most girls are maxed out speed/distance wise by the time they're around 17, but can still improve short game, mental game, course management, etc.
Some coaches will opt for a powerful player with a solid swing and view her as a developmental player over a better ranked girl who scores well but may be already maxed-out with little upside.

They also like to see the ability to play well on longer and tougher courses.  Qualifying and playing in USGA national championships like the Women's Am and Girl's Junior carries significant weight.

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#8 byerxa

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 10:00 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 02 December 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

And many of the top women's golf programs also happen to be top academic schools.

This is exactly what my daughter and I have found going though this process. She is a "meh" golfer (650-700 NJGS ranking, no WAGR at this point) but academically strong (4.0 gpa, 1490 on first swipe at SAT basically written on a lark).  Consequently academics are a priority so you'd think the goal would be a highly ranked academic school with a 100-200 ranked DI program but alas that really does not exist.  It seems strong academics go hand in hand with high end athletics (save for Ivy league). Given that I am surprised how much is available for women's golf.  In my daughters case I really did not think she'd have any chance given her golfing level, but some coaches are looking at her because a) academics and b) she has not been golfing long so some are willing to take a shot on potential.

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#9 dpb5031

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 09:40 AM

View Postbyerxa, on 03 December 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 02 December 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

And many of the top women's golf programs also happen to be top academic schools.

This is exactly what my daughter and I have found going though this process. She is a "meh" golfer (650-700 NJGS ranking, no WAGR at this point) but academically strong (4.0 gpa, 1490 on first swipe at SAT basically written on a lark).  Consequently academics are a priority so you'd think the goal would be a highly ranked academic school with a 100-200 ranked DI program but alas that really does not exist.  It seems strong academics go hand in hand with high end athletics (save for Ivy league). Given that I am surprised how much is available for women's golf.  In my daughters case I really did not think she'd have any chance given her golfing level, but some coaches are looking at her because a) academics and b) she has not been golfing long so some are willing to take a shot on potential.

I think too many junior players and their parents become overly focused on the strength and reputation of a school's golf/athletic program, and many are delusional.   It's hard to not fall into this way of thinking when you're a competitive person heavily immersed in the junior golf world, but unless the kid is an elite level talent with professional aspirations he/she would be better served focusing on a myriad of other criteria.

I say look for an overall "best fit."  Academic reputation, scholarship money available, strength of alumni program for future networking, the school's overall culture, available curriculum/majors, geography/climate/ease of travel to and from home, opportunity to play and travel with the team, etc., should all be considered and given significant weight in the decision.

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#10 heavy_hitter

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 10:35 AM

iTeach and dpd are correct.  

With girl's, the top ranked programs happen to be high academic ranked schools.  Vanderbilt, Stanford, USC, Furman, Duke, Northwestern all have high academic standards and are all great women's golf programs.

I find the rankings to be more flawed for the girl's than I do for the guy's.  D1 coaches do have an image and stereotype in their minds of what they want their gir's to look like.   Outside of the top 50 in each class is where things start to get skewed.  I found through the recruiting process that they are looking for girl's that are 5'6" and taller.  They want them to be able to drive the ball 230 yards plus.  At D1 schools they need to be able to get around courses that are around 6400 yards.  You may have a highly ranked female golfer that struggles when put on longer courses because they are distance challenged.  There is a way to manipulate the ranking system for these girl's.  It doesn't mean they aren't good, it just isn't what the coaches are looking for.  They want someone that is going to take irons into long par 4's, not someone who needs a hybrid and are going to bump and run it in there.  They look more at the untapped side of the potential through height and body stature than on the men's side which you don't see in the rankings.  My kid was one of those girl's.  Not highly recruited because of her ranking as I think the highest she was at one point was 398 overall and around 150 maybe 160 in her class.  When coaches saw her in the US Girl's Amateur and North/South she received a lot of offers because you can't teach a girl to be close to 5'10".

Edited by heavy_hitter, 04 December 2017 - 11:26 AM.


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#11 CTgolf

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 01:54 AM

View Postbyerxa, on 03 December 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 02 December 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

And many of the top women's golf programs also happen to be top academic schools.

This is exactly what my daughter and I have found going though this process. She is a "meh" golfer (650-700 NJGS ranking, no WAGR at this point) but academically strong (4.0 gpa, 1490 on first swipe at SAT basically written on a lark).  Consequently academics are a priority so you'd think the goal would be a highly ranked academic school with a 100-200 ranked DI program but alas that really does not exist.  It seems strong academics go hand in hand with high end athletics (save for Ivy league). Given that I am surprised how much is available for women's golf.  In my daughters case I really did not think she'd have any chance given her golfing level, but some coaches are looking at her because a) academics and b) she has not been golfing long so some are willing to take a shot on potential.

It sounds like your daughter is a very good student, and would qualify for admissions to top schools based on academic merit alone

But I have to disagree with the comment “strong academics go hand in hand with high end athletics” ex-Ivy

Take a look at the top 30 schools in this list:
https://www.usnews.c...al-universities

Roughly 1/3 of the highest 30 have what could be deemed as superior athletic programs.  The reality is most of the best schools (based on subjective rankings but interestingly almost all the various rankings are very similar) are either Ivy or non-D1.

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#12 heavy_hitter

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:33 AM

View PostCTgolf, on 05 December 2017 - 01:54 AM, said:

View Postbyerxa, on 03 December 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 02 December 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

And many of the top women's golf programs also happen to be top academic schools.

This is exactly what my daughter and I have found going though this process. She is a "meh" golfer (650-700 NJGS ranking, no WAGR at this point) but academically strong (4.0 gpa, 1490 on first swipe at SAT basically written on a lark).  Consequently academics are a priority so you'd think the goal would be a highly ranked academic school with a 100-200 ranked DI program but alas that really does not exist.  It seems strong academics go hand in hand with high end athletics (save for Ivy league). Given that I am surprised how much is available for women's golf.  In my daughters case I really did not think she'd have any chance given her golfing level, but some coaches are looking at her because a) academics and b) she has not been golfing long so some are willing to take a shot on potential.

It sounds like your daughter is a very good student, and would qualify for admissions to top schools based on academic merit alone

But I have to disagree with the comment “strong academics go hand in hand with high end athletics” ex-Ivy

Take a look at the top 30 schools in this list:
https://www.usnews.c...al-universities

Roughly 1/3 of the highest 30 have what could be deemed as superior athletic programs.  The reality is most of the best schools (based on subjective rankings but interestingly almost all the various rankings are very similar) are either Ivy or non-D1.

I have looked at the rankings of schools and honestly take them with grain of salt.  How do you value the quality of Education is different from person to person.  I think where your geographical location in the states and where you are raised has a lot to do with it.  I think people in the South would rather go to a big football school than a "Liberal" institution in the North East to study micro aggressions.  At the end of the day you get hired by having a diploma, not by where you went to school.

I am still trying to figure out who said “strong academics go hand in hand with high end athletics” ex-Ivy.  Although in many cases high end athletics do go hand in hand with high end academics.  I honestly haven't even heard of a 1/3 of the institutions in the top 30 on that list.

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#13 byerxa

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:06 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 05 December 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

I am still trying to figure out who said “strong academics go hand in hand with high end athletics” ex-Ivy.  Although in many cases high end athletics do go hand in hand with high end academics.  I honestly haven't even heard of a 1/3 of the institutions in the top 30 on that list.
In saying this I've obviously made an overreaching generalization.  A bit more on our situation:
- We're Canadian so coming in as foreign student (hence costs are way higher). With her marks a lot are offering academic money but it still does not come close to covering the gaps between what it would cost here in Canada and the costs as an international student.
- My daughter is looking at engineering or computer science so our view of a "top" school ends up being narrow and hence seems to us academic and athletic rankings are closely tied.
- Because she has not be playing long she is a year late in the process, i.e., she only started contacting coaches this fall as a senior.
- She is a "meh" golfer in the grand scheme so not much leverage on the athletic side of the equation.

Given all this there is not a lot that fit the criteria which is a 100-200 ranked golf program with a good engineering program.  And being late most coaches have allocated their athletic money for 2018-19.  Have talked to many that would sign her on to their team but simply do not have much funding for athletic money.  We are looking at some potentials that are a good fit so it is a matter of seeing what combination of academic and athletic moneys can be provided. I am not willing to pay a huge premium just to have my kid play D1 golf for 4 years when she can get an education as good (or better) back here at home.

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#14 heavy_hitter

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 04:25 PM

View Postbyerxa, on 07 December 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 05 December 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

I am still trying to figure out who said “strong academics go hand in hand with high end athletics” ex-Ivy.  Although in many cases high end athletics do go hand in hand with high end academics.  I honestly haven't even heard of a 1/3 of the institutions in the top 30 on that list.
In saying this I've obviously made an overreaching generalization.  A bit more on our situation:
- We're Canadian so coming in as foreign student (hence costs are way higher). With her marks a lot are offering academic money but it still does not come close to covering the gaps between what it would cost here in Canada and the costs as an international student.
- My daughter is looking at engineering or computer science so our view of a "top" school ends up being narrow and hence seems to us academic and athletic rankings are closely tied.
- Because she has not be playing long she is a year late in the process, i.e., she only started contacting coaches this fall as a senior.
- She is a "meh" golfer in the grand scheme so not much leverage on the athletic side of the equation.

Given all this there is not a lot that fit the criteria which is a 100-200 ranked golf program with a good engineering program.  And being late most coaches have allocated their athletic money for 2018-19.  Have talked to many that would sign her on to their team but simply do not have much funding for athletic money.  We are looking at some potentials that are a good fit so it is a matter of seeing what combination of academic and athletic moneys can be provided. I am not willing to pay a huge premium just to have my kid play D1 golf for 4 years when she can get an education as good (or better) back here at home.

Schools will be intrigued by your daughter because they don't have to give her athletic money with her academics.  The class of 2018 was very thin on Girl's Golf Scholarships.  It is one of those years where a big majority of the D1 schools did not have availability on their rosters or financials to give.  In the niche' world of junior golf this talk about the class of 2018 has been going on for a couple of years.  The 2018 class for girl's is loaded with talent and there are really good female golfers that are ending up at DII schools because of the lack of financial offerings for the 2018 class.  At this time in the process for your daughter I would be relatively shocked if you found any money for her at any level other than NAIA or an Academic offering.

Just to throw this in....  trying to mix college golf with engineering is really really difficult, though it can be done.  There are a lot of conflicts at most schools when it comes to scheduling around collegiate golf and engineering.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 07 December 2017 - 04:26 PM.


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#15 kekoa

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 04:28 PM

Very interesting read.

I've been meaning to  get my daughter involved with golf asap.  She is 9 now and shows some interest.  I'm not sure if she gets jealous that I spend so much time with my son or if she really wants to play.  She can hit the ball ok for a kid who literally never practices.  I need to get her clubs for x-mas.


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#16 heavy_hitter

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 04:38 PM

View Postkekoa, on 07 December 2017 - 04:28 PM, said:

Very interesting read.

I've been meaning to  get my daughter involved with golf asap.  She is 9 now and shows some interest.  I'm not sure if she gets jealous that I spend so much time with my son or if she really wants to play.  She can hit the ball ok for a kid who literally never practices.  I need to get her clubs for x-mas.

Best sport in the world for girl's.  Actually had more fun with my daughter than I do now with my son.

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#17 hangontight

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:15 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 07 December 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 07 December 2017 - 04:28 PM, said:

Very interesting read.

I've been meaning to  get my daughter involved with golf asap.  She is 9 now and shows some interest.  I'm not sure if she gets jealous that I spend so much time with my son or if she really wants to play.  She can hit the ball ok for a kid who literally never practices.  I need to get her clubs for x-mas.

Best sport in the world for girl's.  Actually had more fun with my daughter than I do now with my son.

You've been down the road, interested to hear your reasons why. I'me early in the journey now with a 7 YO son but my daughter is coming up (only 4) but showing good interest on her own to tag along, putt, etc. Who knows which direction the both will go (both involved in a variety activities, sports, etc.), but already get a sense that her persuits will be more "Fun" than his. Could be a reflection of their personalities or maybe my approach, who knows.

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#18 heavy_hitter

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:28 PM

View Posthangontight, on 07 December 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 07 December 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 07 December 2017 - 04:28 PM, said:

Very interesting read.

I've been meaning to  get my daughter involved with golf asap.  She is 9 now and shows some interest.  I'm not sure if she gets jealous that I spend so much time with my son or if she really wants to play.  She can hit the ball ok for a kid who literally never practices.  I need to get her clubs for x-mas.

Best sport in the world for girl's.  Actually had more fun with my daughter than I do now with my son.

You've been down the road, interested to hear your reasons why. I'me early in the journey now with a 7 YO son but my daughter is coming up (only 4) but showing good interest on her own to tag along, putt, etc. Who knows which direction the both will go (both involved in a variety activities, sports, etc.), but already get a sense that her persuits will be more "Fun" than his. Could be a reflection of their personalities or maybe my approach, who knows.


It is just my opinion and probably because my daughter played it.  Got to see her go full circle from being absolutely terrible to earning a scholarship.  Didn't have to worry about teammates, cat fights, coaches, or playing time.  You always get to play as long as you shoot the number.  In high school there is no I am better than her or her because the number is the number.  It is a lot of family time traveling, planning, practicing and playing.  The time spent in team sports is your daughter with the rest of the team and you aren't involved.  You get to spend your time at really cool venues that are always different.  A basketball court is a basketball court and a softball field is a softball field.

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#19 kekoa

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:33 PM

Here's my daughter's swing.  Club is a bit short and wearing sandals, but you get the point.  lol

https://www.youtube....h?v=Ppz-aY6PiVM

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#20 heavy_hitter

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 05:46 PM

View Postkekoa, on 07 December 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

Here's my daughter's swing.  Club is a bit short and wearing sandals, but you get the point.  lol

https://www.youtube....h?v=Ppz-aY6PiVM

You have seen my posts enough to know that I don't blow smoke and say what I have to say.  I usually roll my eyes at swing videos.  With that said, that is a good swing.  Rough around the edges, but I love the footwork and rotation.  She has something really good to build on because she has a great foundation with her feet and legs.  A lot of girl's just swing as hard as they can without ever compressing the ball.  She has great hip rotation and gets to her left side.  Outstanding.


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#21 kekoa

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 06:58 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 07 December 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 07 December 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

Here's my daughter's swing.  Club is a bit short and wearing sandals, but you get the point.  lol

https://www.youtube....h?v=Ppz-aY6PiVM

You have seen my posts enough to know that I don't blow smoke and say what I have to say.  I usually roll my eyes at swing videos.  With that said, that is a good swing.  Rough around the edges, but I love the footwork and rotation.  She has something really good to build on because she has a great foundation with her feet and legs.  A lot of girl's just swing as hard as they can without ever compressing the ball.  She has great hip rotation and gets to her left side.  Outstanding.

Thanks HH.  A few of my buddies have seen her hit and told me they would groom her if I won't.  LOL

I'm getting her some clubs for x-mas and I hope she takes on to the sport.  She plays basketball right now, but just goes through the motions since she isn't all that great.

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#22 byerxa

byerxa

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 08:17 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 07 December 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

Schools will be intrigued by your daughter because they don't have to give her athletic money with her academics.  The class of 2018 was very thin on Girl's Golf Scholarships.  It is one of those years where a big majority of the D1 schools did not have availability on their rosters or financials to give.  In the niche' world of junior golf this talk about the class of 2018 has been going on for a couple of years.  The 2018 class for girl's is loaded with talent and there are really good female golfers that are ending up at DII schools because of the lack of financial offerings for the 2018 class.  At this time in the process for your daughter I would be relatively shocked if you found any money for her at any level other than NAIA or an Academic offering.

Just to throw this in....  trying to mix college golf with engineering is really really difficult, though it can be done.  There are a lot of conflicts at most schools when it comes to scheduling around collegiate golf and engineering.
Especially with the early signing period over 2018 is pretty well done for athletic money.  There were some late opportunities but they did not fit.  Have one in the hopper where they can't offer athletic money for 2018 but have money for the remaining 3 years and waiting the see what will be offered in the new year once all of the academic money is figured out.  My daughter is also contemplating a lap year and going in for 2019 but that path is shaky.  Once out of junior golf tournament opportunities are limited and most coaches want to see tournament play.  Also if she started school here in Canada that starts the clock ticking on eligibility which some of the coaches did not seem too keen on.

And yes, wanting to do engineering and D1 golf is a tight fit.  I know most coaches (especially a top 50 golf program) would not even entertain it even if the class schedules worked out.  Time management becomes critical.  I know my kid could do it and seems to really want to do it, but she will have to up her time management skills.

I will say it has been an interesting journey so far.  I really did not think she'd have any chance at something but she is actually getting some looks and we've been on a couple of visits.  Based on what I have seen I'd say don't underestimate the academic side of things and how much coaches will look at potential and not just current abilities (at least for the womens golf).

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#23 byerxa

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:43 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 07 December 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

Best sport in the world for girl's.  Actually had more fun with my daughter than I do now with my son.

I think someone wrote an article here about this but girls/women are the future untapped potential for the game.  One problem we have here is a lack of critical mass of junior girl golfers.  You need a large enough group to create the friendships for girls to go out and play as groups.  Its tough enough for a young girl to go out and play golf without having to play by yourself or with adults or boys.  My daughter is an exception as she does not care and loves to golf - she will play with anybody.  My older daughter (if she played golf) would not be so eager and would refuse to go unless it was with friends.

Its great playing with my daughter (except she has kicked my azz for the last couple of years).  And it is something we will be able to do for as long as I can walk and swing a club.

Edited by byerxa, 10 December 2017 - 03:02 PM.


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