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PGA Jr League


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#121 heavy_hitter

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:10 AM

 Noles, on 21 November 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

 mikpga, on 21 November 2018 - 09:51 AM, said:

I would keep all matches local with no advancing.  As mentioned, I think it's a great way to introduce the game, getting the kids on the course.  Better kids need to start playing stroke play imo...
Agreed on the first part.  To the second part, its not an either/or.  My son has been playing stroke play events since he was 6 and was clearly the best kid from our club and in our league and I thought he got a lot out of being a part of it.  I think the other kids really benefitted from his being there as well.  I think his presence and influence really helped a few kids from our club decide to stick with golf and make it something that they still play and are much more "in to" it.

I agree on this as well.


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#122 mikpga

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:15 AM

Yes.  Having A and B players is great, and there’s a lot of good that comes out of it.  I would simply like to see a transition to stroke play.  Or maybe I’m too old school, and perhaps we can get more people playing the game via scramble format!

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#123 heavy_hitter

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 10:24 AM

 mikpga, on 21 November 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

Yes.  Having A and B players is great, and there's a lot of good that comes out of it.  I would simply like to see a transition to stroke play.  Or maybe I'm too old school, and perhaps we can get more people playing the game via scramble format!

If they want to advance and have a tournament like they do, I am all for it.  They should just do it differently.  Now you have sub-regional areas that are to advance one local all star team.  Take the recruiting out of it and have 1 sub-regional all star team.  Split the final 4 teams up from sub-regionals just like the locals and make that your all star team.  This will take all the recruiting out of it.

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#124 Noles

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 01:37 PM

 heavy_hitter, on 21 November 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

 Noles, on 21 November 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

 mikpga, on 21 November 2018 - 09:51 AM, said:

I would keep all matches local with no advancing.  As mentioned, I think it's a great way to introduce the game, getting the kids on the course.  Better kids need to start playing stroke play imo...
Agreed on the first part.  To the second part, its not an either/or.  My son has been playing stroke play events since he was 6 and was clearly the best kid from our club and in our league and I thought he got a lot out of being a part of it.  I think the other kids really benefitted from his being there as well.  I think his presence and influence really helped a few kids from our club decide to stick with golf and make it something that they still play and are much more "in to" it.

I agree on this as well.
What?  Did the earth start spinning in the opposite direction?  If this keeps up, people will accuse us of having a bromance! lol

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#125 Golfingdawg19

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 08:30 PM

 leezer99, on 21 November 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

 Golfingdawg19, on 21 November 2018 - 08:47 AM, said:

What I think is crazy is all the recruiting going on in PGA junior league. They had the coach of the winning team on PGA radio and he talked about how they won. He has an academy and hand picks who is on his team. He has kids coming from all around his area to play on his team. How is a regular team mad up of kids who are legitimately from a golf club supposed to beat a stacked team of all stars. Just like everything else, adults have ruined the whole process.

The only people complaining are the ones that value winning over the experience.  If you want to win, get better and join a fully recruited team in your area that legitimately has a chance to win.  Stop living in the Bad News Bears dream and get with the times.

Mark my words... PGA Jr. League is going to go international and team Japan, Korea, Australia, etc. will all be nationally recruited teams.  Your local team from Hoboken Muni Golf Club won't have a chance.

The intention of the PGA junior league was to grow the game and it wasn’t originally about who won some national tournament. The tournament was a bonus that rewarded the kids at the end. Now adults are manipulating the system to try and win at all cost. They do the same thing with the drive chip and putt. It just seems ridiculous that teams aren’t “home grown.” When you have kids skipping their own local team to go and play for a “stacked team” hours away it becomes ridiculous. What you have now is a competition to see who can recruit the best. The states with the top junior golfer (California, Florida, Texas, etc) will dominate. Just crazy how adults ruin things.


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#126 tiger1873

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 11:04 AM

All teams sports are the same. If you join a team you want it to be successful.   Some kids want to play team golf and some parents like  it having less pressure put on the individual kid unlike playing regular tournament golf.

Team golf is fine but if your kid is good in golf your going to do tournament golf instread. I don’t like the recurting aspect so we tend to avoid team golf now plus I don’t believe it not really what my kids want now. When my oldest first started playing team golf was great for me because I was worried about being a caddy. Now that I’d done that enough we moved on.  At the end of the day that is what PGA junior league is good for parents who never been involved in golf before.

Edited by tiger1873, 23 November 2018 - 11:09 AM.


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#127 DGord10

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 11:44 PM

While I understand some of the views above, I think that I have a different perspective of the program.....

My son has participated in PGA Jr League for the last 3 summers - the first two at our local club and this past summer farther away on the IL Cog Hill team that made it to the finals at Greyhawk.  We purposely went out of our way this summer to put him in the much better program at Cog Hill in order to have the opportunity to go to post season and potentially to the national finals - he is 13 and a very good junior golfer and the "regular" season PGA Jr League wasn't worth the time and effort if there wasn't potential for post season.  While he had some fun the first two summers, he was really the only good golfer on the team and found it fun only because he was playing with a good friend (who wasn't much good) and got a chance to play on local country club courses which were very nice and new to him - decent way to spend a couple of hours when he was 11 and 12 but nothing more and sometimes pretty frustrating for him as so many of the kids had trouble even getting bogies/double bogies in a scramble format.  But, after talking to some friends who had previously been to the national finals through Cog Hill, there was no question that for a good junior the prize was post season play and potentially getting to the finals.  If we hadn't gone to Cog then we probably wouldn't have bothered and so the potential lure of the special aspects of post season kept both my son (and some of his peers at the same level as my son) participating when otherwise they wouldn't have bothered, instead just focusing on regular tournaments.

Based on what I've observed, in my opinion there are two very different aspects to the program, each of which are critical for the program and the PGA - the regular main program during the season which had 51,000 participants this past summer which is mainly focused on younger kids and kids just getting into golf - very basic and entry level - and completely separate is the post-season which is purely a reward/focus to keep the better kids interested and participating - high level kids, coaching and opportunity. By participating on the Cog all star team, my son got to play alongside some of the other top juniors in the area, get coached by one of the top local coaches and got to practice on Dubsdread (one of the top courses in the area where for many years they had PGA events).  Both aspects to the program have their place, benefits and importance to the PGA but they do have to be separated when people think about PGA Jr League.  As a result, though it probably hurt my son's team a bit compared to a couple of other teams who recruit and plan more centrally across their state (the Cog team is regional based on word of mouth and friends bringing in friends but not recruited in a top down way like I heard some of the other teams were), I don't have a problem with recruiting and stacking the all star team and I don't have a problem with the PGA creating, fostering and enhancing the post season for the better golfers.

If it was just regular season the PGA would lose the interest of the better kids and I think that having the better kids still participate through age 13 (and I think next year through age 14) benefits the regular season program by having the younger kids and kids new to golf get some exposure to the better older kids.  By having the goal of a national finals put on and paid for by the PGA and run like a quasi-PGA event (even with 3 days of practice rounds before the three days of tournament play), the PGA provides a good reason for kids like my son to stay involved.  The quality of junior golf at the national finals was incredibly high - clearly with a lot of the top 12/13yr old boys and girls in the country represented.  My son played in 13 individual tournaments this season and would never have bothered with PGA Jr League otherwise since he had a full schedule - but as a result of this post season aspect of the program, my son had one of his best yet golf experiences and created some incredible memories (up there with going to US Kids Worlds and another international tournament at PGA National).  

What made it truly priceless was that on the way back from AZ my son told us that going to the national finals and the whole experience there may be the biggest highlight of the entire golf season for him (and not to toot his horn but to truly show what this finals experience meant to him, it was a season in which he won 7 tournaments, was player of the year for his age group, qualified for and played pretty well in two big local tournaments primarily for much older kids at full distance and satisfied a number of other key goals he had).  

As a result, I think that the PGA has found way to create a program which is very successful and beneficial for new/young kids as well as capable of providing an amazing and worthwhile experience for more accomplished kids. I admit that I was skeptical (and might have a different perspective if the goal of making to the national finals didn't pan out), but based on this experience I would encourage parents of more elite junior golfers to see if there is a good team in the broader area that might have a chance to go far in the post-season because that experience could be valuable even for those kids who have otherwise passed by the basic PGA Jr League program.  I give the PGA a lot of credit for this "dual" program approach and for putting such great resources into both.

Edited by DGord10, 05 December 2018 - 11:57 PM.


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#128 leezer99

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 08:43 AM

 DGord10, on 05 December 2018 - 11:44 PM, said:

While I understand some of the views above, I think that I have a different perspective of the program.....

My son has participated in PGA Jr League for the last 3 summers - the first two at our local club and this past summer farther away on the IL Cog Hill team that made it to the finals at Greyhawk.  We purposely went out of our way this summer to put him in the much better program at Cog Hill in order to have the opportunity to go to post season and potentially to the national finals - he is 13 and a very good junior golfer and the "regular" season PGA Jr League wasn't worth the time and effort if there wasn't potential for post season.  While he had some fun the first two summers, he was really the only good golfer on the team and found it fun only because he was playing with a good friend (who wasn't much good) and got a chance to play on local country club courses which were very nice and new to him - decent way to spend a couple of hours when he was 11 and 12 but nothing more and sometimes pretty frustrating for him as so many of the kids had trouble even getting bogies/double bogies in a scramble format.  But, after talking to some friends who had previously been to the national finals through Cog Hill, there was no question that for a good junior the prize was post season play and potentially getting to the finals.  If we hadn't gone to Cog then we probably wouldn't have bothered and so the potential lure of the special aspects of post season kept both my son (and some of his peers at the same level as my son) participating when otherwise they wouldn't have bothered, instead just focusing on regular tournaments.

Based on what I've observed, in my opinion there are two very different aspects to the program, each of which are critical for the program and the PGA - the regular main program during the season which had 51,000 participants this past summer which is mainly focused on younger kids and kids just getting into golf - very basic and entry level - and completely separate is the post-season which is purely a reward/focus to keep the better kids interested and participating - high level kids, coaching and opportunity. By participating on the Cog all star team, my son got to play alongside some of the other top juniors in the area, get coached by one of the top local coaches and got to practice on Dubsdread (one of the top courses in the area where for many years they had PGA events).  Both aspects to the program have their place, benefits and importance to the PGA but they do have to be separated when people think about PGA Jr League.  As a result, though it probably hurt my son's team a bit compared to a couple of other teams who recruit and plan more centrally across their state (the Cog team is regional based on word of mouth and friends bringing in friends but not recruited in a top down way like I heard some of the other teams were), I don't have a problem with recruiting and stacking the all star team and I don't have a problem with the PGA creating, fostering and enhancing the post season for the better golfers.

If it was just regular season the PGA would lose the interest of the better kids and I think that having the better kids still participate through age 13 (and I think next year through age 14) benefits the regular season program by having the younger kids and kids new to golf get some exposure to the better older kids.  By having the goal of a national finals put on and paid for by the PGA and run like a quasi-PGA event (even with 3 days of practice rounds before the three days of tournament play), the PGA provides a good reason for kids like my son to stay involved.  The quality of junior golf at the national finals was incredibly high - clearly with a lot of the top 12/13yr old boys and girls in the country represented.  My son played in 13 individual tournaments this season and would never have bothered with PGA Jr League otherwise since he had a full schedule - but as a result of this post season aspect of the program, my son had one of his best yet golf experiences and created some incredible memories (up there with going to US Kids Worlds and another international tournament at PGA National).  

What made it truly priceless was that on the way back from AZ my son told us that going to the national finals and the whole experience there may be the biggest highlight of the entire golf season for him (and not to toot his horn but to truly show what this finals experience meant to him, it was a season in which he won 7 tournaments, was player of the year for his age group, qualified for and played pretty well in two big local tournaments primarily for much older kids at full distance and satisfied a number of other key goals he had).  

As a result, I think that the PGA has found way to create a program which is very successful and beneficial for new/young kids as well as capable of providing an amazing and worthwhile experience for more accomplished kids. I admit that I was skeptical (and might have a different perspective if the goal of making to the national finals didn't pan out), but based on this experience I would encourage parents of more elite junior golfers to see if there is a good team in the broader area that might have a chance to go far in the post-season because that experience could be valuable even for those kids who have otherwise passed by the basic PGA Jr League program.  I give the PGA a lot of credit for this "dual" program approach and for putting such great resources into both.

So instead of sticking with your local team and having your son use his talents at golf to show leadership to a younger less accomplished group of golfers you instead gave up on them leaving them for fodder to join an already stacked team so that he could play in an event that is fun yet inconsequential, whereby you are teaching him that to get ahead you shouldn't start from the ground up but instead take a shortcut and join an already established juggernaut.  Got it.

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#129 DGord10

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 10:28 AM

 leezer99, on 06 December 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

 DGord10, on 05 December 2018 - 11:44 PM, said:

While I understand some of the views above, I think that I have a different perspective of the program.....

My son has participated in PGA Jr League for the last 3 summers - the first two at our local club and this past summer farther away on the IL Cog Hill team that made it to the finals at Greyhawk.  We purposely went out of our way this summer to put him in the much better program at Cog Hill in order to have the opportunity to go to post season and potentially to the national finals - he is 13 and a very good junior golfer and the "regular" season PGA Jr League wasn't worth the time and effort if there wasn't potential for post season.  While he had some fun the first two summers, he was really the only good golfer on the team and found it fun only because he was playing with a good friend (who wasn't much good) and got a chance to play on local country club courses which were very nice and new to him - decent way to spend a couple of hours when he was 11 and 12 but nothing more and sometimes pretty frustrating for him as so many of the kids had trouble even getting bogies/double bogies in a scramble format.  But, after talking to some friends who had previously been to the national finals through Cog Hill, there was no question that for a good junior the prize was post season play and potentially getting to the finals.  If we hadn't gone to Cog then we probably wouldn't have bothered and so the potential lure of the special aspects of post season kept both my son (and some of his peers at the same level as my son) participating when otherwise they wouldn't have bothered, instead just focusing on regular tournaments.

Based on what I've observed, in my opinion there are two very different aspects to the program, each of which are critical for the program and the PGA - the regular main program during the season which had 51,000 participants this past summer which is mainly focused on younger kids and kids just getting into golf - very basic and entry level - and completely separate is the post-season which is purely a reward/focus to keep the better kids interested and participating - high level kids, coaching and opportunity. By participating on the Cog all star team, my son got to play alongside some of the other top juniors in the area, get coached by one of the top local coaches and got to practice on Dubsdread (one of the top courses in the area where for many years they had PGA events).  Both aspects to the program have their place, benefits and importance to the PGA but they do have to be separated when people think about PGA Jr League.  As a result, though it probably hurt my son's team a bit compared to a couple of other teams who recruit and plan more centrally across their state (the Cog team is regional based on word of mouth and friends bringing in friends but not recruited in a top down way like I heard some of the other teams were), I don't have a problem with recruiting and stacking the all star team and I don't have a problem with the PGA creating, fostering and enhancing the post season for the better golfers.

If it was just regular season the PGA would lose the interest of the better kids and I think that having the better kids still participate through age 13 (and I think next year through age 14) benefits the regular season program by having the younger kids and kids new to golf get some exposure to the better older kids.  By having the goal of a national finals put on and paid for by the PGA and run like a quasi-PGA event (even with 3 days of practice rounds before the three days of tournament play), the PGA provides a good reason for kids like my son to stay involved.  The quality of junior golf at the national finals was incredibly high - clearly with a lot of the top 12/13yr old boys and girls in the country represented.  My son played in 13 individual tournaments this season and would never have bothered with PGA Jr League otherwise since he had a full schedule - but as a result of this post season aspect of the program, my son had one of his best yet golf experiences and created some incredible memories (up there with going to US Kids Worlds and another international tournament at PGA National).  

What made it truly priceless was that on the way back from AZ my son told us that going to the national finals and the whole experience there may be the biggest highlight of the entire golf season for him (and not to toot his horn but to truly show what this finals experience meant to him, it was a season in which he won 7 tournaments, was player of the year for his age group, qualified for and played pretty well in two big local tournaments primarily for much older kids at full distance and satisfied a number of other key goals he had).  

As a result, I think that the PGA has found way to create a program which is very successful and beneficial for new/young kids as well as capable of providing an amazing and worthwhile experience for more accomplished kids. I admit that I was skeptical (and might have a different perspective if the goal of making to the national finals didn't pan out), but based on this experience I would encourage parents of more elite junior golfers to see if there is a good team in the broader area that might have a chance to go far in the post-season because that experience could be valuable even for those kids who have otherwise passed by the basic PGA Jr League program.  I give the PGA a lot of credit for this "dual" program approach and for putting such great resources into both.

So instead of sticking with your local team and having your son use his talents at golf to show leadership to a younger less accomplished group of golfers you instead gave up on them leaving them for fodder to join an already stacked team so that he could play in an event that is fun yet inconsequential, whereby you are teaching him that to get ahead you shouldn't start from the ground up but instead take a shortcut and join an already established juggernaut.  Got it.

Hmm, very cynical and harsh view - hard to know why.  If you have kids playing competitive golf, you know that there is only so much time in the day/week and summer and that ultimately you have to make hard decisions as to what to spend time doing that maximize the benefit to your kid and rationalize time spent by the parents as well.  At the age of 13 all golf events can be viewed as inconsequential - but you again are wrong about this in general and wrong about this event being inconsequential in the development of a youth golfer as these type of national events that bring together kids from all over are indeed important for so many reasons that I won't bother to explain since they should be obvious.  Sure, things get more and more consequential as he gets older but the right exposure to great experiences over time builds passion and a foundation that are invaluable - I have seen it happen with my son every time he has had an opportunity like this.

"Donating" time and effort in this program is a silly perspective - his local team had few practices with few interactions and would have been a complete waste of time from his perspective and our perspective, while his Cog team had regular practices and more interaction among the kids and the coach - if we are going to spend time and effort donating time to help youth golf it will be through our local first tee (and my son has already expressed an interest in getting involved in that for next summer).  Why you think that I should "sacrifice" a tremendous developmental opportunity for my kid on the alter of idealism for everyone is truly baffling.   There is a time and place to donate time, effort and money - and when you are doing it, that is what you are focusing on and trying to maximize - and there is a time to focus on your own kid's growth and development within the sport.  And, by the way, he "put in" his time of two summers on the local team in any event - so 2 out of 3 summers were spent "local" - sorry you think it should have been 3 out of 3.

By the way, he was on a "regular" team during the season (I think the Cog program by itself at one club at 80 kids and 8 teams) - and so he just wasn't with the "local" regular team - so I guess you are saying that we should have set our sights on mediocrity and not winning anything and had him be on his local team with no prospects of development and a great experience instead of finding a program that was much stronger from start to finish.  You should know that there is no such thing as starting from the ground up with something like this - this isn't a 4 or 5 yr process to develop talent (if that is even possible in this situation) - it is a couple of months and so playing on a team of 10 with only one kid who can break 90 or even 100 or in a division with only a few kids who could play decently once the all star team portion begins is not something that changes much in any given period.  You also seem to be forgetting that my son is a kid - playing on a team where the average age is under 10 with no good players is not something that keeps the interest of a 13yr old and forcing him to do it would have been wrong in so many ways and a hinderance to his passion for golf.  He wants to get involved with the first tee because he wants to help little kids learn but trying to combine that with purposefully avoiding a great team for a poor team also ignores the kid's needs as a kid, as a competitor and as a passionate golfer.  Again, a very strange and cynical perspective and it misses the point of the dual nature of this program and misses the point of trying to create something beneficial not only for beginning golfers but also something for accomplished ones as well.

I am baffled that you think that trying to find and put effort into great experiences for a kid is wrong?  Your logic would suggest that no kid should play on travel teams in any sport or try to excel and move up teams or try to find ways to play with better players to succeed, win and go after the pinnacle of experiences available in whatever sport at whatever level because then they are "depriving" local or regular league teams of their "talent" and leadership - so if your kid played baseball or basketball, etc and you had the opportunity to have you kid play on a great travel team with kids of his own level, you would dismiss that opportunity and leave them on a team with no other good players that loses every game because by staying on the team, your kid could somehow work from the ground up and turn the team around and help the other kids get a little better - nope, no parent would do it in any sport.  

None of the experiences are "consequential" in any real way at young ages but that doesn't mean that striving for them and participating in them is wrong or inappropriate.  Should my son stop practicing and playing in individual tournaments as much because he is already good enough and stop trying to strive for improving his game and giving himself better opportunities and instead spend lots of his time at the age of 13 trying to help other kids with golf at his local course?  Is that the right perspective to foster his passion and provide him with opportunities to excel and which reward the huge amount of time and effort that he has put into his game?  

This summer he probably spent an average of 40-50 hours a week on course playing and practicing and going to the national finals for PGA Jr League was a tremendous experience that rewarded that time and effort - I am thrilled that we were able to put him in a situation that gave him a chance to have this opportunity.  He won't be able to participate next summer because the post season will conflict with HS golf but otherwise he would love to continue for another season and we would do it without second thought.

Edited by DGord10, 06 December 2018 - 12:45 PM.


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#130 leezer99

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 12:44 PM

Hmm, very cynical and bitter view - hard to know why.  If you have kids playing golf, you know that there is only so much time in the day/week and summer and that ultimately you have to make hard decisions as to what to spend time doing that maximize the benefit to your kid and rationalize time spent by the parents as well.  Your perspective is dead wrong.  At the age of 13 all golf events can be viewed as inconsequential - but you again are wrong about this in general and wrong about this event being inconsequential in the development of a youth golfer as these type of national events that bring together kids from all over are indeed important for so many reasons that I won't bother to explain to you since it sounds like you don't care.  Sure, things get more and more consequential as he gets older but the right foundation is invaluable. - My view is my own and is based on the fact that parents are ruining this experience for many young golfers by creating 'super teams' instead of participating in their local chapters.  Same thing happens in baseball, basketball, etc.  In regards to only having so much time, you spent two hours in the car traveling to and from each practice from home to Cog Hill.  If your time were important you'd probably try finding a better way to use it than sitting behind a windshield.  To me, it sounds like being on a winning team was more important to you than to your child's development within the game.

"Donating" time and effort in this program is a silly perspective - his local team had few practices with few interactions and would have been a complete waste of time from his perspective and our perspective, while his Cog team had regular practices and more interaction among the kids and the coach - if we are going to spend time and effort donating time to help youth golf it will be through our local first tee (and my son has already expressed an interest in getting involved in that for next summer).  Why you think that I should "sacrifice" a tremendous developmental opportunity for my kid on the alter of idealism for everyone is truly baffling.   There is a time and place to donate time, effort and money - and when you are doing it, that is what you are focusing on and trying to maximize - and there is a time to focus on your own kid's growth and development within the sport.  And, by the way, he "put in" his time of two summers on the local team in any event - so 2 out of 3 summers were spent in your idealism in any event - sorry you think it should have been 3 out of 3. - Golf is a community and relationship sport for the most part.  You willingly took your son out of that community and broke down those relationships he had created along the way.  Imagine being a kid on that local team you were on before looking forward to playing with an accomplished golfer like your son only to find out that it wasn't worth his time to play with a bunch of 'losers' so he went to be on a 'super team'.  As a parent you have input into how and when the team practices... we lost our coach towards the end of the season this year yet continued to have valuable practices facilitated by the parents.  Our band of misfits lost to a 'super team' by one point.

By the way, he was on a "regular" team during the season (I think the Cog program by itself at one club at 80 kids and 8 teams) - you must not realize that the all star team is post season only - and so he just wasn't with the "local" regular team - so I guess you are saying that we should have set our sights on mediocrity and not winning anything and had him be on his local team with no prospects of development and a great experience instead of finding a program that was much stronger from start to finish.  You should know that there is no such thing as starting from the ground up with something like this - this isn't a 4 or 5 yr process to develop talent (if that is even possible in this situation) - it is a couple of months and so playing on a team of 10 with only one kid who can break 90 or even 100 or in a division with only a few kids who could play decently once the all star team portion begins is not something that changes much in any given period.  You also seem to be forgetting that my son is a kid - playing on a team where the average age is under 10 with no good players is not something that keeps the interest of a 13yr old and forcing him to do it would have been flat out stupid and a hinderance to his passion for golf.  He wants to get involved with the first tee because he wants to help little kids learn but trying to combine that with purposefully avoiding a great team for a poor team also ignores the kid's needs as a kid, as a competitor and as a passionate golfer.  Again, a very strange and cynical perspective and it misses the point of the dual nature of this program and misses the point of trying to create something beneficial not only for beginning golfers but also something for accomplished ones as well. - Your focus is on winning instead of development.  If you want your 13 year old to be the best 13 year old of all time then by all means keep it up.  If you want to develop a child of character then you present them with challenges to overcome.  Joining a 'super team' like Cog Hill with its 8 teams of kids is simply a TID program.  BTW, I'm sure your local team would love to hear that you and your son feel that there are 'no good players'.  Again, you're burning the bridges of your local community.  If your son's passion only comes from being part of a winning team then you are in it for the wrong reasons and will likely fall out once the winning stops.

I am baffled that you think that trying to find and put effort into great experiences for a kid is wrong?  Your logic would suggest that no kid should play on travel teams in any sport or try to excel and move up teams or try to find ways to play with better players to succeed, win and go after the pinnacle of experiences available in whatever sport at whatever level because then they are "depriving" other teams of their "talent" and leadership - so if your kid played baseball or basketball, etc and you had the opportunity to have you kid play on a great travel team with kids of his own level, you would dismiss that opportunity and leave them on a team with no other good players that loses every game because by staying on the team, your kid could somehow work from the ground up and turn the team around and help the other kids get a little better - nonsense and no parent would do it in any sport.  - My son's baseball team this fall went 0-8.  One kid of the 12 never showed up and two quit during the season.  His spring season team went 16-0.  Where do you think he learned more and had more of an impact on the team?  Which do you think will have more of an impact on his long term development?  If you don't lie to yourself you'll know the answer was with the 0-8 team.  Like I said before, if your kid is only motivated by winning your time playing competitive anything will be short lived.  We were asked to play on the travel team this past year but he didn't want to... he's not the best ball player by any means but he is a team player that the other kids like being around.

None of the experiences are "consequential" in any real way at young ages but that doesn't mean that striving for them and participating in them is wrong or inappropriate.  Gee, I guess according to you my son should stop practicing and playing in individual tournaments as much because he is already good enough and stop trying to strive for improving his game and giving himself better opportunities and instead spend lots of his time at the age of 13 trying to help other kids with golf at his local course....that just is flat out wrong headed. - Being defensive by trying to make my argument seem invalid by taking it to the extremes only shows that you are grasping at straws.  I will continue to believe that it was your decision to move him to the 'super team' at Cog Hill to be on a winning team (even if it was simply by bringing it up to him as an option) and that he probably would have been just fine playing locally with his friend.  Your idea of giving your child a better opportunity and my idea of giving my child a better opportunity obviously clash.

All that said, your son is a great player and I really do hope he keeps up the stellar play from this past year.  Winning POY this year along with his three other wins is a fantastic accomplishment that he should be proud of.


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#131 heavy_hitter

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 01:17 PM

I tend to agree with Leezer in this argument.

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#132 DGord10

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 01:18 PM

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  What I see and what I don't think you see is that an experience like this is an important part of my son's development in this sport and part of maintaining and fostering passion, excitement, etc. and rewarding hard work.  It was worth the time driving him to Cog (quite frankly being with the coach there and playing on Dubs was worth the drives as well).  In addition, growing in the game of golf when you are trying hard to get to an elite level notwithstanding difficult competition is an accumulation of experiences and just like practice, the more reps/experiences you have the better your development and the more that you can grow.  It is no different than playing in lots of tournaments of all types to provide a base of experience early on.  I don't really understand how you think that being on a winning team or winning is antithetical to growing as a kid and golfer - winning is not mutually exclusive to development and you seem to take that as a given.  That doesn't mean that winning is the be all and end all for everything - not at all.  But rather there are many aspects to development and dismissing this aspect doesn't make sense to me.

Golf is a hard sport period - it is even harder to "win" in golf and learning how to play when winning is on the line is critical as is having "big" time experiences where a kid has to bear down and perform under a lot of pressure.  He did the local thing 2 yrs in a row and he just wasn't going to do it again so it was the Cog team or no team.  Playing on the local team yet another summer wasn't going to help his development or character as much as getting a much higher quality experience all around at Cog both during the regular season and post season and having a shot at going to the finals.  If my son were at a different level and more of an entry golfer or enjoyed golf but wasn't devoting himself completely to it, perhaps our view would be different.  But at his level of play and level of devotion, I'm not going to pull punches - not fair to him when he is practicing as much as he is all the time - golf is what he is going after and not providing him with this opportunity would be purposefully holding him back.  My son has been on plenty of mediocre teams in baseball, basketball, etc. (and prior local PGA Jr League) and had his share of just being a team player and the character building that comes along with that (he has that now in fact on his school bball team where he only plays a couple minutes a game) - what he also needs are plenty of these types of experiences which develop other as important aspects of his golf character and development and reward his hard work and devotion to golf.

I also think you are missing something else critical that my first post was meant to bring into the conversation.  Creating the post season and all star teams no matter how constituted is something that is not a problem but rather keeps many older/better kids in the program that otherwise would have moved on and just done individual tournaments.  While very different than the regular season, it has its place and an important purpose as well both for the kids who stick around and for the PGA and broader program.

The other thing which I think is being missed is that there are times for all different types of challenges. The challenge of adversity and losing is something that goes hand in hand with golf at every stage and every level whether on a team or playing individually.  My son has seen plenty of the ups and downs in golf and has grown tremendously as a result.  When you play golf, you lose a lot - actually most of the time.  That doesn't mean that you don't go after winning when and how you can or purposefully pass over chances to excel.  There is a challenge to that as well and an important challenge.

Edited by DGord10, 06 December 2018 - 01:40 PM.


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#133 DGord10

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 02:22 PM

View Postleezer99, on 06 December 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:


All that said, your son is a great player and I really do hope he keeps up the stellar play from this past year.  Winning POY this year along with his three other wins is a fantastic accomplishment that he should be proud of.

By the way, thanks for the comment - much appreciated!

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#134 TigerMom

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 05:57 PM

View PostDGord10, on 06 December 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  What I see and what I don't think you see is that an experience like this is an important part of my son's development in this sport and part of maintaining and fostering passion, excitement, etc. and rewarding hard work.  It was worth the time driving him to Cog (quite frankly being with the coach there and playing on Dubs was worth the drives as well).  In addition, growing in the game of golf when you are trying hard to get to an elite level notwithstanding difficult competition is an accumulation of experiences and just like practice, the more reps/experiences you have the better your development and the more that you can grow.  It is no different than playing in lots of tournaments of all types to provide a base of experience early on.  I don't really understand how you think that being on a winning team or winning is antithetical to growing as a kid and golfer - winning is not mutually exclusive to development and you seem to take that as a given.  That doesn't mean that winning is the be all and end all for everything - not at all.  But rather there are many aspects to development and dismissing this aspect doesn't make sense to me.

Golf is a hard sport period - it is even harder to "win" in golf and learning how to play when winning is on the line is critical as is having "big" time experiences where a kid has to bear down and perform under a lot of pressure.  He did the local thing 2 yrs in a row and he just wasn't going to do it again so it was the Cog team or no team.  Playing on the local team yet another summer wasn't going to help his development or character as much as getting a much higher quality experience all around at Cog both during the regular season and post season and having a shot at going to the finals.  If my son were at a different level and more of an entry golfer or enjoyed golf but wasn't devoting himself completely to it, perhaps our view would be different.  But at his level of play and level of devotion, I'm not going to pull punches - not fair to him when he is practicing as much as he is all the time - golf is what he is going after and not providing him with this opportunity would be purposefully holding him back.  My son has been on plenty of mediocre teams in baseball, basketball, etc. (and prior local PGA Jr League) and had his share of just being a team player and the character building that comes along with that (he has that now in fact on his school bball team where he only plays a couple minutes a game) - what he also needs are plenty of these types of experiences which develop other as important aspects of his golf character and development and reward his hard work and devotion to golf.

I also think you are missing something else critical that my first post was meant to bring into the conversation.  Creating the post season and all star teams no matter how constituted is something that is not a problem but rather keeps many older/better kids in the program that otherwise would have moved on and just done individual tournaments.  While very different than the regular season, it has its place and an important purpose as well both for the kids who stick around and for the PGA and broader program.

The other thing which I think is being missed is that there are times for all different types of challenges. The challenge of adversity and losing is something that goes hand in hand with golf at every stage and every level whether on a team or playing individually.  My son has seen plenty of the ups and downs in golf and has grown tremendously as a result.  When you play golf, you lose a lot - actually most of the time.  That doesn't mean that you don't go after winning when and how you can or purposefully pass over chances to excel.  There is a challenge to that as well and an important challenge.

DGord10,

I think you did a great thing for your son

In tennis you have to play against better players to get better

In fact, the most competitive players and their parents don’t want to play with kids worse than them

I am not saying it is good for society it’s just a fact

I am not expert in golf, but seems like you have to play with the best to reach your potential

And anything that helps develop love and passion for the sport is great

Ultimately kids have to be self motivated to become great

It is a function of passion, determination and effort (hard work with lots of solo practice)

You seem like you are helping your son in guiding him in right direction to achieve his best

Don’t let anyone discourage you

Leezer means well (I love your song “Beverly Hills”) but one size not fits all parents

P.S. how do you identify and get involved with PGA jr league all-star team?

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#135 leezer99

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 07:02 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 06 December 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

View PostDGord10, on 06 December 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  What I see and what I don't think you see is that an experience like this is an important part of my son's development in this sport and part of maintaining and fostering passion, excitement, etc. and rewarding hard work.  It was worth the time driving him to Cog (quite frankly being with the coach there and playing on Dubs was worth the drives as well).  In addition, growing in the game of golf when you are trying hard to get to an elite level notwithstanding difficult competition is an accumulation of experiences and just like practice, the more reps/experiences you have the better your development and the more that you can grow.  It is no different than playing in lots of tournaments of all types to provide a base of experience early on.  I don't really understand how you think that being on a winning team or winning is antithetical to growing as a kid and golfer - winning is not mutually exclusive to development and you seem to take that as a given.  That doesn't mean that winning is the be all and end all for everything - not at all.  But rather there are many aspects to development and dismissing this aspect doesn't make sense to me.

Golf is a hard sport period - it is even harder to "win" in golf and learning how to play when winning is on the line is critical as is having "big" time experiences where a kid has to bear down and perform under a lot of pressure.  He did the local thing 2 yrs in a row and he just wasn't going to do it again so it was the Cog team or no team.  Playing on the local team yet another summer wasn't going to help his development or character as much as getting a much higher quality experience all around at Cog both during the regular season and post season and having a shot at going to the finals.  If my son were at a different level and more of an entry golfer or enjoyed golf but wasn't devoting himself completely to it, perhaps our view would be different.  But at his level of play and level of devotion, I'm not going to pull punches - not fair to him when he is practicing as much as he is all the time - golf is what he is going after and not providing him with this opportunity would be purposefully holding him back.  My son has been on plenty of mediocre teams in baseball, basketball, etc. (and prior local PGA Jr League) and had his share of just being a team player and the character building that comes along with that (he has that now in fact on his school bball team where he only plays a couple minutes a game) - what he also needs are plenty of these types of experiences which develop other as important aspects of his golf character and development and reward his hard work and devotion to golf.

I also think you are missing something else critical that my first post was meant to bring into the conversation.  Creating the post season and all star teams no matter how constituted is something that is not a problem but rather keeps many older/better kids in the program that otherwise would have moved on and just done individual tournaments.  While very different than the regular season, it has its place and an important purpose as well both for the kids who stick around and for the PGA and broader program.

The other thing which I think is being missed is that there are times for all different types of challenges. The challenge of adversity and losing is something that goes hand in hand with golf at every stage and every level whether on a team or playing individually.  My son has seen plenty of the ups and downs in golf and has grown tremendously as a result.  When you play golf, you lose a lot - actually most of the time.  That doesn't mean that you don't go after winning when and how you can or purposefully pass over chances to excel.  There is a challenge to that as well and an important challenge.

DGord10,

I think you did a great thing for your son

In tennis you have to play against better players to get better

In fact, the most competitive players and their parents don’t want to play with kids worse than them

I am not saying it is good for society it’s just a fact

I am not expert in golf, but seems like you have to play with the best to reach your potential

And anything that helps develop love and passion for the sport is great

Ultimately kids have to be self motivated to become great

It is a function of passion, determination and effort (hard work with lots of solo practice)

You seem like you are helping your son in guiding him in right direction to achieve his best

Don’t let anyone discourage you

Leezer means well (I love your song “Beverly Hills”) but one size not fits all parents

P.S. how do you identify and get involved with PGA jr league all-star team?
On mobile but it's really just finding a local team, play against other local teams and get chosen to be in the all star team by the captain of the winning team. You'll have a hard time making any all star team if you're not hitting drives 250+.

Let me just reiterate that I am not against the PGA Jr league in any way. What I don't like are the super team leagues that are put together at the local level stripping all of the accomplished players out of what should be their local league. It's just parents gaming the system.


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#136 DGord10

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:41 AM

View PostTigerMom, on 06 December 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:


DGord10,

I think you did a great thing for your son

In tennis you have to play against better players to get better

In fact, the most competitive players and their parents don’t want to play with kids worse than them

I am not saying it is good for society it’s just a fact

I am not expert in golf, but seems like you have to play with the best to reach your potential

And anything that helps develop love and passion for the sport is great

Ultimately kids have to be self motivated to become great

It is a function of passion, determination and effort (hard work with lots of solo practice)

You seem like you are helping your son in guiding him in right direction to achieve his best

Don’t let anyone discourage you

Leezer means well (I love your song “Beverly Hills”) but one size not fits all parents

P.S. how do you identify and get involved with PGA jr league all-star team?

Thanks for the comments.

As for how you identify and get involved with the all-star team, I think Leezer has it right - the key is to be a stand out on your own team and get chosen as a result for the division/local all star team.  I think that only up to 2-3 kids from any given local team can be selected for the division all star team.  Certain areas/divisions have groups of better kids and so will ultimately have a better all star team when 1-2 are chosen from across the division teams to make up the 10 person all star team.  In our case, because of the quality of the program at Cog Hill, kids have been gravitating there in greater numbers every year since the beginning (I actually think the first national finals was played there) and so Cog Hill has its own full division with as I recall 8 teams just at the one club.  As a result, the top 10 kids are spread across those 8 teams, play on those teams for the regular season matches and then are selected for the all star team for the division, which happens to be all from the Cog teams.  I am not sure how the other top all star teams are assembled as the situation Cog has must be unusual.  So, because of that situation, we knew from day one talking with the head guy there that our son would be able to make the all star team if we signed him up for the program at Cog and based on my son's peers/friends who were also going to participate at Cog, we knew from the beginning that the 10 person all star team would be pretty strong and have a shot at getting to the national finals if they played to their potential.  Cog has previously sent a few teams to the national finals and the coach thought that this team would be his strongest to date based upon its overall depth (you need to be able to field four strong groups who can all pick up points).  Surprisingly enough only 4-5 of the 10 are 13 and so the team definitely gave up size/distance to pretty much every other team in the finals but some of the younger kids were terrific around the greens (so its not all about the distance and size but given the average height on the other teams, it certainly helps).

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#137 DGord10

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:48 AM

View Postleezer99, on 06 December 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

Let me just reiterate that I am not against the PGA Jr league in any way. What I don't like are the super team leagues that are put together at the local level stripping all of the accomplished players out of what should be their local league. It's just parents gaming the system.

One thing to keep in mind is that for the top kids it is not an either/or.  If there was not a top flight all star team to play on, my son just wouldn't have participated again in PGA Jr League and neither would probably 7-8 of my son's all star team overall - they would have just focused on other tournaments and golf opportunities during the summer.  So, the super teams actually do not serve to strip much if anything from other teams because those kids for the most part wouldn't be on the local teams in any event.  Instead, it enlarges/enhances the program because it provides something that keeps these kids in the program for another year or two when they otherwise would have moved on.  That's why I view it as a dual program with two completely different sets of goals and benefits for two different sets of kids.

Edited by DGord10, 07 December 2018 - 12:49 AM.


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#138 DGord10

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:02 AM

View Postleezer99, on 06 December 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

You'll have a hard time making any all star team if you're not hitting drives 250+.

Not necessarily - I would guess that only 6 of my son's 10 person team could hit drives over 250 at any time, let alone consistently....certainly at least 230 for most.  The key is not just distance but even more so the 90yrd in game and putting.  Though there were a lot of long hitters in the finals, what made the difference for a team to win over another usually came down to who was making the 10-15 footers consistently and who could get a couple of 25+ footers to fall or chip in.  For instance, my son who can drive the ball 250-260 regularly and has a great long iron game was paired with a teammate who couldn't hit the ball nearly as far (perhaps only 220 or so) but was incredible at reading putts and putting and so they complemented each other quite well.  The other kid would always go first off the tee, put one in the fairway perhaps out 220-230 and then my son could try to bomb it - but on the green my son would putt first and help show the line to the other kid because he was the better putter.  On par 5s, the other kid would lay up to a good distance on the second shot and my son would go for the green with a wood or a 3 iron.  Worked pretty well for them.  

So, while of course, long hitters are a good thing and it makes it easier to make the all star team, it isn't dispositive if there are other aspects of the game that a kid excels in and could contribute to his teammates.

Edited by DGord10, 07 December 2018 - 01:03 AM.


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