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Swingers, Hitters, and Switters


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#1 PJ1120

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 02:28 PM

The below is from Jeff Mann's website which talks about different swing styles. I remember Mike McNary telling me years ago that he considered himself a switter. Mike has one of the best golf swings I've seen. Which category do you feel you fall into? I'll copy and paste more detail if you don't understand the concepts.


A golfer needs to learn how to use the appropriate powering mechanics for his selected swing style and he should not mix-and-match fundamental swing concepts that are incompatible with each other. There are two basic golf swing styles - swinging and hitting. A golfer can therefore either choose to become a swinger or a hitter. I will describe how a swinger powers the full golf swing and how a hitter powers the full golf swing in great detail. It is important that a golfer not mix the fundamentals underlying a hitting action with the fundamentals underlying a swinging action because they may not be compatible. If one does mix the fundamentals, one becomes a switter (a golfer who uses an admixture of swinging and hitting actions) and a switter may be plagued by a inconsistent golf swing because his swing fundamentals may not be working synergistically together in a synchronised manner.


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#2 Chote konez

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 02:39 PM

Isn’t Jeff Mann that older dude who has no clue what he’s talking about?

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#3 PJ1120

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:00 PM

He's an older dude but he's got good information that he gets from very reputable sources....e.g. Tutelman

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#4 pinhigh27

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:36 PM

Literally not real things
How to be in better shape for golf?
Become a better athlete.
Don't worry about golf specific.
Compound lifts w/ linear progress
Don't forget the mobility work.
More results, more functional

Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
Pga tour driver avg launch conditions: 11* 2700

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#5 Yff Theos

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:47 PM

Swinger/Hitter in the TGM sense ? Everything is in the Book.


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#6 glk

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:48 PM

Last discussion  on this forum was a weird one where Mann was represented by a third party (who would post on Mann's site, get Mann's response, and reply here) about Mann not believing that the lead wrist is extending through impact for virtually all professionals measure via 3D (Daniel Berger being an exception).    He attempted to use video 2d evidence to refute 3d - going on and on about the interval of 3D measurement was insufficient to say the wrists were extending.    

I've been to his site.  He has people asking him for advice and he can't see even the most obvious of swing flaws.   Tells people they have an excellent swing even though they are losing their angles by P6 and flipping through impact.   He has been accused of banning people and removing posts that disagree with his opinions on his site.    

On the swinger/hitter, I'm of the view that no such things exists.   Just a TGM concept that has seen it's day and has been surpassed by the current biomechanics of
the swing.    If it works for someone then good for them.    To me, I prefer Cheetham, Shasho, et al and info from 3D.   Shaun Webb has a nice youtube site with lots of 3D videos on different aspects of the swing - dispelling myths along the way.       Or info from others on this forum such as Monte, iteach, FWP (and though he doesn't post here,
Tyler Ferrell).

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#7 chrisgilly09

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:10 PM

Not real, and since its that time of year, neither is Santa

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#8 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:35 PM

It has been my experience that nearly every person who concerns themselves with swing and release pattern terminology and aspire to or pigpen hole themselves, never get better and often get worse.

Those that ask what they can do to hit it better, often improve.


Did you see him smacked up
And cracked up
With his tongue on his chin
And his club in his hand,
Swinging from the rafters
Like a real RocknRolla

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#9 PJ1120

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:54 PM

Isn't left arm off the chest a swingers move? Unless you are swinging both arms at the same speed (MDLT?) it seems you only have two choices to power the swing.....pull (swing) from the left side or push(hit) from the right side. I do both....sometimes in the same round which is maddening. If my intent is to "skip the stone" I have a really hard time consciously swinging my left arm at the same time. I think Homer got some things wrong but not all. O'Grady fashioned a lot of MORAD from what he learned from TGM. Are you saying both are BS?

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#10 iteachgolf

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 05:20 PM

View PostPJ1120, on 13 November 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

Isn't left arm off the chest a swingers move? Unless you are swinging both arms at the same speed (MDLT?) it seems you only have two choices to power the swing.....pull (swing) from the left side or push(hit) from the right side. I do both....sometimes in the same round which is maddening. If my intent is to "skip the stone" I have a really hard time consciously swinging my left arm at the same time. I think Homer got some things wrong but not all. O'Grady fashioned a lot of MORAD from what he learned from TGM. Are you saying both are BS?

Yes.  False dichotomy. Everyone who is any good does both in their swing.  There are both pulling and pushing forces being applied.  Everyone is a “swifter”


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#11 Yff Theos

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 05:35 PM

People often either complicate TGM things or throw crap on them, usually when they do not understand their merits well. In short and simplyfying it all: TGM Swinger/Hitter patterns are just sequences in which certain "motors" of the swing (Power Accumulators) work and what is the origin of the movement: centrifugal force or muscular effort. Swinging is then Rope Handle technique (rotating arm pulling) while Hitting is Axe Handle technique (continuous arm thrust). Nothing wrong in this approach, imo, although it is rough and rather primitive taking into account current knowledge. Also can be overexaggerated by TGM purists.
As far as I know, Mac did not use it the way it is presented in the Book but Mac was a player, Homer was just a theoretician who lacked the ability to play scratch golf. Nevertheless, without the Book (and its errors) there would not have been MORAD or it would have looked differently.

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#12 TTGolf77

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 05:53 PM

View PostPJ1120, on 13 November 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

Isn't left arm off the chest a swingers move? Unless you are swinging both arms at the same speed (MDLT?) it seems you only have two choices to power the swing.....pull (swing) from the left side or push(hit) from the right side. I do both....sometimes in the same round which is maddening. If my intent is to "skip the stone" I have a really hard time consciously swinging my left arm at the same time. I think Homer got some things wrong but not all. O'Grady fashioned a lot of MORAD from what he learned from TGM. Are you saying both are BS?

Left arm comes off the chest before the right arm starts to actively straighten.

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#13 PJ1120

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 08:34 PM

View PostTTGolf77, on 13 November 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostPJ1120, on 13 November 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

Isn't left arm off the chest a swingers move? Unless you are swinging both arms at the same speed (MDLT?) it seems you only have two choices to power the swing.....pull (swing) from the left side or push(hit) from the right side. I do both....sometimes in the same round which is maddening. If my intent is to "skip the stone" I have a really hard time consciously swinging my left arm at the same time. I think Homer got some things wrong but not all. O'Grady fashioned a lot of MORAD from what he learned from TGM. Are you saying both are BS?

Left arm comes off the chest before the right arm starts to actively straighten.

I get that. So Dan is saying that all good golfers are switters? Tony Finau said in an article last year that he wanted the feeling of both arms swinging the same speed. For some reason, I have to feel that one arm is more dominant ( from a force against the shaft) than the other. If my intent is to get the right elbow to chase the belly button it seems to slow my left arm off the chest. Is it just me?

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#14 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 09:11 PM

In which category does an overly zealous slash belong?

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#15 northgolf

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 09:20 PM

View PostYff Theos, on 13 November 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

People often either complicate TGM things or throw crap on them, usually when they do not understand their merits well. In short and simplyfying it all: TGM Swinger/Hitter patterns are just sequences in which certain "motors" of the swing (Power Accumulators) work and what is the origin of the movement: centrifugal force or muscular effort. Swinging is then Rope Handle technique (rotating arm pulling) while Hitting is Axe Handle technique (continuous arm thrust). Nothing wrong in this approach, imo, although it is rough and rather primitive taking into account current knowledge. Also can be overexaggerated by TGM purists.
As far as I know, Mac did not use it the way it is presented in the Book but Mac was a player, Homer was just a theoretician who lacked the ability to play scratch golf. Nevertheless, without the Book (and its errors) there would not have been MORAD or it would have looked differently.

TGM is for lemmings.

If I do this 11,548 more times, I will be having fun.  - Zippy the Pinhead

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#16 dap

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:26 PM

View PostPJ1120, on 13 November 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

View PostTTGolf77, on 13 November 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostPJ1120, on 13 November 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

Isn't left arm off the chest a swingers move? Unless you are swinging both arms at the same speed (MDLT?) it seems you only have two choices to power the swing.....pull (swing) from the left side or push(hit) from the right side. I do both....sometimes in the same round which is maddening. If my intent is to "skip the stone" I have a really hard time consciously swinging my left arm at the same time. I think Homer got some things wrong but not all. O'Grady fashioned a lot of MORAD from what he learned from TGM. Are you saying both are BS?

Left arm comes off the chest before the right arm starts to actively straighten.

I get that. So Dan is saying that all good golfers are switters? Tony Finau said in an article last year that he wanted the feeling of both arms swinging the same speed. For some reason, I have to feel that one arm is more dominant ( from a force against the shaft) than the other. If my intent is to get the right elbow to chase the belly button it seems to slow my left arm off the chest. Is it just me?
Not just you. I am a right handed so actively swinging the left arm hard is not instinctive. It tends to remain too passive. I need to feel the left elbow leads the downswing. It speeds up the left arm.

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#17 Chote konez

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:49 PM

View PostPJ1120, on 13 November 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

Isn't left arm off the chest a swingers move? Unless you are swinging both arms at the same speed (MDLT?) it seems you only have two choices to power the swing.....pull (swing) from the left side or push(hit) from the right side. I do both....sometimes in the same round which is maddening. If my intent is to "skip the stone" I have a really hard time consciously swinging my left arm at the same time. I think Homer got some things wrong but not all. O'Grady fashioned a lot of MORAD from what he learned from TGM. Are you saying both are BS?

Hitting is not skipping the stone. It’s extending the right arm. Not the same move at all. But as others have said I really wouldn’t worry about this stuff.

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#18 Yff Theos

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 05:36 AM

View Postnorthgolf, on 13 November 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

View PostYff Theos, on 13 November 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

People often either complicate TGM things or throw crap on them, usually when they do not understand their merits well. In short and simplyfying it all: TGM Swinger/Hitter patterns are just sequences in which certain "motors" of the swing (Power Accumulators) work and what is the origin of the movement: centrifugal force or muscular effort. Swinging is then Rope Handle technique (rotating arm pulling) while Hitting is Axe Handle technique (continuous arm thrust). Nothing wrong in this approach, imo, although it is rough and rather primitive taking into account current knowledge. Also can be overexaggerated by TGM purists.
As far as I know, Mac did not use it the way it is presented in the Book but Mac was a player, Homer was just a theoretician who lacked the ability to play scratch golf. Nevertheless, without the Book (and its errors) there would not have been MORAD or it would have looked differently.

TGM is for lemmings.

Why do you think so?

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#19 Swisstrader98

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 06:10 AM

View PostPJ1120, on 13 November 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

View PostTTGolf77, on 13 November 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostPJ1120, on 13 November 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

Isn't left arm off the chest a swingers move? Unless you are swinging both arms at the same speed (MDLT?) it seems you only have two choices to power the swing.....pull (swing) from the left side or push(hit) from the right side. I do both....sometimes in the same round which is maddening. If my intent is to "skip the stone" I have a really hard time consciously swinging my left arm at the same time. I think Homer got some things wrong but not all. O'Grady fashioned a lot of MORAD from what he learned from TGM. Are you saying both are BS?

Left arm comes off the chest before the right arm starts to actively straighten.

I get that. So Dan is saying that all good golfers are switters? Tony Finau said in an article last year that he wanted the feeling of both arms swinging the same speed. For some reason, I have to feel that one arm is more dominant ( from a force against the shaft) than the other. If my intent is to get the right elbow to chase the belly button it seems to slow my left arm off the chest. Is it just me?

How could both arms NOT swing at the same speed?  Fingers attached to club shaft, fingers attached to hand, hand attached to arms, and all swinging at same speed.

Can’t work any other way.

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#20 dap

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:57 AM

View PostSwisstrader98, on 14 November 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

View PostPJ1120, on 13 November 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

View PostTTGolf77, on 13 November 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

View PostPJ1120, on 13 November 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

Isn't left arm off the chest a swingers move? Unless you are swinging both arms at the same speed (MDLT?) it seems you only have two choices to power the swing.....pull (swing) from the left side or push(hit) from the right side. I do both....sometimes in the same round which is maddening. If my intent is to "skip the stone" I have a really hard time consciously swinging my left arm at the same time. I think Homer got some things wrong but not all. O'Grady fashioned a lot of MORAD from what he learned from TGM. Are you saying both are BS?

Left arm comes off the chest before the right arm starts to actively straighten.

I get that. So Dan is saying that all good golfers are switters? Tony Finau said in an article last year that he wanted the feeling of both arms swinging the same speed. For some reason, I have to feel that one arm is more dominant ( from a force against the shaft) than the other. If my intent is to get the right elbow to chase the belly button it seems to slow my left arm off the chest. Is it just me?

How could both arms NOT swing at the same speed?  Fingers attached to club shaft, fingers attached to hand, hand attached to arms, and all swinging at same speed.

Can’t work any other way.
The upper left arm above the elbow can move faster because the arm can bend. Watch this video of Ben Hogan. Right around P6 his left arm bends because he's leading with his left elbow hard as well as driving with his right arm. That's called blasting the left arm off the chest. You need to actively use both arms because you won't maximise your power to weight ratio if you don't.



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#21 PJ1120

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:05 PM

 MonteScheinblum, on 13 November 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

It has been my experience that nearly every person who concerns themselves with swing and release pattern terminology and aspire to or pigpen hole themselves, never get better and often get worse.

Those that ask what they can do to hit it better, often improve.

Monte....when you say "pigeon hole" themselves are you saying that one day you can feel you are a swinger and the next day feel you are a hitter and that's OK?

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#22 Chote konez

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:11 AM

 PJ1120, on 14 November 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

 MonteScheinblum, on 13 November 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

It has been my experience that nearly every person who concerns themselves with swing and release pattern terminology and aspire to or pigpen hole themselves, never get better and often get worse.

Those that ask what they can do to hit it better, often improve.

Monte....when you say "pigeon hole" themselves are you saying that one day you can feel you are a swinger and the next day feel you are a hitter and that's OK?

Imo most people don’t understand the terminology well enough to even begin to apply it. If you must I’d try to read TGM, although it’s not an easy read. Sounds like Monte is saying not to worry about it.

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#23 Yff Theos

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:13 AM

It is not that difficult. People are lazy.

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#24 northgolf

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:47 AM

 Yff Theos, on 15 November 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

It is not that difficult. People are lazy.

It is poorly written, poorly organized, and based an explanitorily inadequate physical model. I have read it three times - first in the prescribed order then twice as written. Once you understand the totality of what is in that book, you comprehend you have wasted your time; that is, only if you start from a base of complete ignorance and have scant critical thinking skills could you believe you had learned anything of value.  This is why I consider it a book for lemmings.
If I do this 11,548 more times, I will be having fun.  - Zippy the Pinhead

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#25 gvogel

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:10 AM

Lynn Blake did a video where he explained the difference between hitting and swinging.

The funny thing is that his swing looked identical when he was demonstrating both swings.  But I enjoyed the video nonetheless.

On Sundays, I used to play hickory

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#26 Yff Theos

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:02 AM

 northgolf, on 15 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

 Yff Theos, on 15 November 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

It is not that difficult. People are lazy.

It is poorly written, poorly organized, and based an explanitorily inadequate physical model. I have read it three times - first in the prescribed order then twice as written. Once you understand the totality of what is in that book, you comprehend you have wasted your time; that is, only if you start from a base of complete ignorance and have scant critical thinking skills could you believe you had learned anything of value.  This is why I consider it a book for lemmings.

It seems you did not grasp the spirit of the Book properly, hence your negative attitude. It is not a book for reading, it is a directory to be used ad hoc. Despite some errors, it widens horizons efrfectively. I cannot imagine an instructor who claims to know his stimmfach be a TGM-illiterate person.

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#27 rsballer10

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:10 AM

 northgolf, on 15 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

 Yff Theos, on 15 November 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

It is not that difficult. People are lazy.

It is poorly written, poorly organized, and based an explanitorily inadequate physical model. I have read it three times - first in the prescribed order then twice as written. Once you understand the totality of what is in that book, you comprehend you have wasted your time; that is, only if you start from a base of complete ignorance and have scant critical thinking skills could you believe you had learned anything of value.  This is why I consider it a book for lemmings.
I wouldn't say that. I would say it was a book written by a great intellectual and a terrible golfer. It attempted to take the mystique out of golf instruction. The hitters and swingers thing was poorly described, but it did evolve into the two release styles that is popularized today. So the book isn't all bad, it's just about as relevant as a typewriter, that's all.

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#28 David C

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:07 PM

The book was of its time.

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#29 northgolf

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:07 PM

 rsballer10, on 15 November 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

 northgolf, on 15 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

 Yff Theos, on 15 November 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

It is not that difficult. People are lazy.

It is poorly written, poorly organized, and based an explanitorily inadequate physical model. I have read it three times - first in the prescribed order then twice as written. Once you understand the totality of what is in that book, you comprehend you have wasted your time; that is, only if you start from a base of complete ignorance and have scant critical thinking skills could you believe you had learned anything of value.  This is why I consider it a book for lemmings.
I wouldn't say that. I would say it was a book written by a great intellectual and a terrible golfer. It attempted to take the mystique out of golf instruction. The hitters and swingers thing was poorly described, but it did evolve into the two release styles that is popularized today. So the book isn't all bad, it's just about as relevant as a typewriter, that's all.

Great intellectuals can write intelligibly.
If I do this 11,548 more times, I will be having fun.  - Zippy the Pinhead

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#30 rsballer10

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 03:02 PM

 northgolf, on 15 November 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

 rsballer10, on 15 November 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

 northgolf, on 15 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

 Yff Theos, on 15 November 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

It is not that difficult. People are lazy.

It is poorly written, poorly organized, and based an explanitorily inadequate physical model. I have read it three times - first in the prescribed order then twice as written. Once you understand the totality of what is in that book, you comprehend you have wasted your time; that is, only if you start from a base of complete ignorance and have scant critical thinking skills could you believe you had learned anything of value.  This is why I consider it a book for lemmings.
I wouldn't say that. I would say it was a book written by a great intellectual and a terrible golfer. It attempted to take the mystique out of golf instruction. The hitters and swingers thing was poorly described, but it did evolve into the two release styles that is popularized today. So the book isn't all bad, it's just about as relevant as a typewriter, that's all.

Great intellectuals can write intelligibly.
Hmmmmm...have you ever read an academic paper? I prefer plain English myself, it reads awfully similar to how he writes.


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