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If you could stop time...


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#31 Nard_S

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:05 PM

I would argue the reverse is true.  The modern technology showcases "true talent" much better than the old.

I could not disagree more. It may bring "mano a mano" more to the front, but talent is also handling the adversity of course & elements. Equipment designed to mitigate that part diminishes what is integral to the game and sets golf a part from other sports. Jack & Tiger were not just long, they controlled the ball better than their peers. Golf historically has been man vs elements vs opponent. Tech has diminished the trifecta of challenge and many here like it and approve. I do not and never will. Cheers.


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#32 1970.gpp

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 06:34 PM

View PostKYMAR, on 13 November 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

New stuff is shiny.
New stuff feels better, too...
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#33 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 08:45 PM

View PostNard_S, on 13 November 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

I would argue the reverse is true.  The modern technology showcases "true talent" much better than the old.

I could not disagree more. It may bring "mano a mano" more to the front, but talent is also handling the adversity of course & elements. Equipment designed to mitigate that part diminishes what is integral to the game and sets golf a part from other sports. Jack & Tiger were not just long, they controlled the ball better than their peers.

It does exactly the opposite.  Technology makes distance available to all.  Golf is *less* "man a mano" because of tech, not more.  The technology gives bigger gains to those who swing slower.  Technology can help a ton with playing golf swing.  It can't help at all with playing golf.  It levels the playing field for slower swingers.
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#34 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 08:51 PM

View Postchisag, on 13 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

"I would argue the reverse is true.  The modern technology showcases "true talent" much better than the old.  Somebody is always going to drive it further - Jack was longer than the field, relatively speaking, than anyone is now.  Modern technology helps people play golf swing better.  True talent is playing golf. Golf is a mental game, not a physical one, and the new technology allows those with less-than-optimal swings to compete."

... How old are you? (I wish everyone put that in their profile) Golf is a mental AND physical game. Show me the strongest willed but completely non athletic guy in the world and I doubt he would play well in 1971. I ask how old you are because if you played with balata balls, persimmon drivers and small MB's you would know how much harder it was to control the ball. Virtually nobody played a straight ball flight because it didn't exist. Blade a TP5x and it gets in the air and runs a good ways, but blade a HT-100 and if it didn't cut completely showing rubber bands, the cover was cut and not only didn't go very far but curved tremendously. And it's not like there was no mental aspect to the game back then, it was as much or arguably more important because the ball had so much movement with a poor swing. Skill was at a premium and those that could control their ball flight AND hit it far had a huge advantage.

... I do not compare players then to players now because either group would change their game to match the equipment if they have real talent. But golf was not played by the masses back then because it was just so dammed difficult, as opposed to today when anyone can pick up a 460cc forgiving driver and have at least some success as well as hitting SGI irons compared to some Wilson FG-17's that gave you no help getting the ball in the air.


35, but I played tennis my whole life until I gave it up due to injury.  About five years into golf.

Everything  you are saying here makes sense, if the goal of the game was to make the best swing possible.

If the winner in golf was the guy who made the best golf swing, stripping away the technology would absolutely make the cream rise.  There is no doubt about that.  None.  We just disagree what "true talent" is when it comes to golf.  You think its how someone swings a club and hits a ball.  I think its how someone navigates a course and handles their emotions.  The technology does, indeed, hurt "talent from rising" under your definition - the best pure swing won't win nearly as often. Under mine (a mental, course management and guts game), it helps "true talent" beat the guy with the flawless swing.

In tennis, there are tons of guys who had better strokes than Jimmy Connors.  Were they "more talented" ?  Maybe.  They won a lot less.  As the racquets got better, players like Federer and Nadal (ever seen Nadal hit a first serve?) started to dominate through mental toughness and being better at the actual game, not just the tennis strokes.

Technology hurts talent if talent is defined in terms of the swing (technology evens the playing field for those without perfect swings).  Technology helps talent if talent is defined in terms of the intangibles of the game (technology allows a slower swinger to compete where they would otherwise be completely unable to).
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#35 chisag

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:22 PM

... Perhaps you are too young to have seen them, but the best players in the persimmon-balata era did not have pure swings. Far from it. What they did do was control the ball as well as how they navigated a course and had the mental discipline to recover from their bad shots or manage their good ones. "I think its how someone navigates a course and handles their emotions." was even truer then than it is now. Navigating a course was just more difficult because the ball moved much more and every little mistake was exaggerated. They all worked the ball, some one way and some both ways. Chi Chi Rodriguez, Tee Trevino, Raymond Floyd as well as Arnie and Jack. None of them had pure swings. They just were able to get the club head back to the ball the same way when needed for any given shot, even though they had what would be considered today, as serious swing flaws. It took much more talent to play back then. Again, I don't compare todays players to players then because we don't know how Dustin Johnson would have played back then. He grew up with different equipment and he has mastered them because the skills of 1970 is not needed today, but had he grown up during that time his game would have developed differently and he still may have been one of the best in the game.

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#36 DFS PFD

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:23 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 November 2017 - 08:51 PM, said:

View Postchisag, on 13 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

"I would argue the reverse is true.  The modern technology showcases "true talent" much better than the old.  Somebody is always going to drive it further - Jack was longer than the field, relatively speaking, than anyone is now.  Modern technology helps people play golf swing better.  True talent is playing golf. Golf is a mental game, not a physical one, and the new technology allows those with less-than-optimal swings to compete."

... How old are you? (I wish everyone put that in their profile) Golf is a mental AND physical game. Show me the strongest willed but completely non athletic guy in the world and I doubt he would play well in 1971. I ask how old you are because if you played with balata balls, persimmon drivers and small MB's you would know how much harder it was to control the ball. Virtually nobody played a straight ball flight because it didn't exist. Blade a TP5x and it gets in the air and runs a good ways, but blade a HT-100 and if it didn't cut completely showing rubber bands, the cover was cut and not only didn't go very far but curved tremendously. And it's not like there was no mental aspect to the game back then, it was as much or arguably more important because the ball had so much movement with a poor swing. Skill was at a premium and those that could control their ball flight AND hit it far had a huge advantage.

... I do not compare players then to players now because either group would change their game to match the equipment if they have real talent. But golf was not played by the masses back then because it was just so dammed difficult, as opposed to today when anyone can pick up a 460cc forgiving driver and have at least some success as well as hitting SGI irons compared to some Wilson FG-17's that gave you no help getting the ball in the air.


35, but I played tennis my whole life until I gave it up due to injury.  About five years into golf.

Everything  you are saying here makes sense, if the goal of the game was to make the best swing possible.

If the winner in golf was the guy who made the best golf swing, stripping away the technology would absolutely make the cream rise.  There is no doubt about that.  None.  We just disagree what "true talent" is when it comes to golf.  You think its how someone swings a club and hits a ball.  I think its how someone navigates a course and handles their emotions.  The technology does, indeed, hurt "talent from rising" under your definition - the best pure swing won't win nearly as often. Under mine (a mental, course management and guts game), it helps "true talent" beat the guy with the flawless swing.

In tennis, there are tons of guys who had better strokes than Jimmy Connors.  Were they "more talented" ?  Maybe.  They won a lot less.  As the racquets got better, players like Federer and Nadal (ever seen Nadal hit a first serve?) started to dominate through mental toughness and being better at the actual game, not just the tennis strokes.

Technology hurts talent if talent is defined in terms of the swing (technology evens the playing field for those without perfect swings).  Technology helps talent if talent is defined in terms of the intangibles of the game (technology allows a slower swinger to compete where they would otherwise be completely unable to).

Just looking for input here, questioning your opinion, where was the equipment evening the field during the Tiger Woods era?
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#37 BearQ

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:28 PM

View PostSubaruWRX, on 13 November 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

Iíd stop the clock when I was 23. Super healthy and stronger than I am now. I could play with any equipment, and itís not like everyone else could play anything better than what I could get my hands on. So with equipment not giving anyone an advantage, Iíll take my younger self and hit the course!

Ahah Iím totally with you. Gimme my health and pre injury swing back and Iím okay playing nearly anything. Health and energy is everything
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#38 Gamble Gamble

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:32 PM

I don't understand this version of the neo-Luddite approach to golf.  If you want to play with old equipment do that.  If not, play the new stuff.  The new equipment is not the only reason these kids are out driving previous generations by 35 yards.  It's sheer athleticism, biomechanics, genetics and TALENT.  

The reason it is becoming more prevalent is because golf income on tour is eclipsing other high contact sports.  Follow the money.

Edited by Gamble Gamble, 13 November 2017 - 10:49 PM.

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#39 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:42 PM

View Postchisag, on 13 November 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

... Perhaps you are too young to have seen them, but the best players in the persimmon-balata era did not have pure swings. Far from it. What they did do was control the ball as well as how they navigated a course and had the mental discipline to recover from their bad shots or manage their good ones. "I think its how someone navigates a course and handles their emotions." was even truer then than it is now. Navigating a course was just more difficult because the ball moved much more and every little mistake was exaggerated. They all worked the ball, some one way and some both ways. Chi Chi Rodriguez, Tee Trevino, Raymond Floyd as well as Arnie and Jack. None of them had pure swings. They just were able to get the club head back to the ball the same way when needed for any given shot, even though they had what would be considered today, as serious swing flaws. It took much more talent to play back then. Again, I don't compare todays players to players then because we don't know how Dustin Johnson would have played back then. He grew up with different equipment and he has mastered them because the skills of 1970 is not needed today, but had he grown up during that time his game would have developed differently and he still may have been one of the best in the game.

Right, but its all relative.  They all had incredibly pure swings *relative to each other*.  They weren't competing against trackman, playing since you were 3 years old to the exclusion of all other sports, pressure plates, body maps, etc... etc... In terms of competing against each other, they all had pure swings.  Trevino's fade was just as unique as Rory's power alley draw.  Its just that we don't see it the same because it wasn't as good.  But relative to his playing competitor's the overall situation was identical.

We've learned over time that "working the ball" isn't usually very smart.  That isn't a technological advancement, its a metrical shotlink advancement.  Mastering one ballflight and using it 95% of the time (as today's pros do, per shotlink) is a more effective way to play.  We don't play that way because we have M2 irons, we play that way because shotlink has taught us that working the ball leads to higher scores over time, and GIR is king (not working it to a pin and risking missing, but hitting a stock shot over and over and over).

Your argument is akin to saying NBA players don't shoot mid range jumpers and only take 3 pointers because shoes are better now.  The game is understood better now.  It has nothing to do with technology.  Just like the NBA has learned through analytics that mid range jump shots lose games and three pointers win games, we've learned "working the ball", 'shaping shots" and "shotmaking" is simply an inferior way to play compared to always hitting the same spin/direction shot over and over.  It has nothing to do with the technology in the clubs, just like how the NBA is played now compared to 1965 has nothing to do with the sneakers.
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#40 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:49 PM

View PostDFS PFD, on 13 November 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 November 2017 - 08:51 PM, said:

View Postchisag, on 13 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

"I would argue the reverse is true.  The modern technology showcases "true talent" much better than the old.  Somebody is always going to drive it further - Jack was longer than the field, relatively speaking, than anyone is now.  Modern technology helps people play golf swing better.  True talent is playing golf. Golf is a mental game, not a physical one, and the new technology allows those with less-than-optimal swings to compete."

... How old are you? (I wish everyone put that in their profile) Golf is a mental AND physical game. Show me the strongest willed but completely non athletic guy in the world and I doubt he would play well in 1971. I ask how old you are because if you played with balata balls, persimmon drivers and small MB's you would know how much harder it was to control the ball. Virtually nobody played a straight ball flight because it didn't exist. Blade a TP5x and it gets in the air and runs a good ways, but blade a HT-100 and if it didn't cut completely showing rubber bands, the cover was cut and not only didn't go very far but curved tremendously. And it's not like there was no mental aspect to the game back then, it was as much or arguably more important because the ball had so much movement with a poor swing. Skill was at a premium and those that could control their ball flight AND hit it far had a huge advantage.

... I do not compare players then to players now because either group would change their game to match the equipment if they have real talent. But golf was not played by the masses back then because it was just so dammed difficult, as opposed to today when anyone can pick up a 460cc forgiving driver and have at least some success as well as hitting SGI irons compared to some Wilson FG-17's that gave you no help getting the ball in the air.


35, but I played tennis my whole life until I gave it up due to injury.  About five years into golf.

Everything  you are saying here makes sense, if the goal of the game was to make the best swing possible.

If the winner in golf was the guy who made the best golf swing, stripping away the technology would absolutely make the cream rise.  There is no doubt about that.  None.  We just disagree what "true talent" is when it comes to golf.  You think its how someone swings a club and hits a ball.  I think its how someone navigates a course and handles their emotions.  The technology does, indeed, hurt "talent from rising" under your definition - the best pure swing won't win nearly as often. Under mine (a mental, course management and guts game), it helps "true talent" beat the guy with the flawless swing.

In tennis, there are tons of guys who had better strokes than Jimmy Connors.  Were they "more talented" ?  Maybe.  They won a lot less.  As the racquets got better, players like Federer and Nadal (ever seen Nadal hit a first serve?) started to dominate through mental toughness and being better at the actual game, not just the tennis strokes.

Technology hurts talent if talent is defined in terms of the swing (technology evens the playing field for those without perfect swings).  Technology helps talent if talent is defined in terms of the intangibles of the game (technology allows a slower swinger to compete where they would otherwise be completely unable to).
6-
Just looking for input here, questioning your opinion, where was the equipment evening the field during the Tiger Woods era?

It didn't, that was my point.  Tiger won because he was the best iron player of all time by a factor of 2-3x.  Tiger dominated under Butch (late 90s, early 2000s) and Haney (post-2006).  Those were two very different tech eras, but, the technology was irrelevant.  This whole business about "technology not letting true talent shine through" is silly.  Now because of technology we can get Langer in 2nd on a Sunday at Augusta, then Couples the next year, etc... In 1986 it was an insane event Nicklaus was even there.  Tech keeps the best players around longer.  Its ridiculous to conclude technology interferes with talent shining through.  It does exactly the opposite.

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#41 halliedog

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:50 PM

View PostItsjustagame, on 13 November 2017 - 07:06 AM, said:

If I could stop time I would put it to better use than my golf equipment.

I can't "stop" time, but if I could "turn back time" I'd give it all to you.  PM me if interested, and no low balls please!
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#42 Bonesaw

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:16 PM

The ball is 90% of the equation.  Jack would have hit a 4 or 5 at pebble in 72 if he had a pro v1.  Not a 1.  

It's made the game more fun.

12

#43 bladehunter

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:17 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 November 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 13 November 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

I would argue the reverse is true.  The modern technology showcases "true talent" much better than the old.

I could not disagree more. It may bring "mano a mano" more to the front, but talent is also handling the adversity of course & elements. Equipment designed to mitigate that part diminishes what is integral to the game and sets golf a part from other sports. Jack & Tiger were not just long, they controlled the ball better than their peers.

It does exactly the opposite.  Technology makes distance available to all.  Golf is *less* "man a mano" because of tech, not more.  The technology gives bigger gains to those who swing slower.  Technology can help a ton with playing golf swing.  It can't help at all with playing golf.  It levels the playing field for slower swingers.

which is exactly why older tech is a better test.. you get to see who the better player is ..not who gets the luckier bounces or can hit the straightest ball....same as wind/rain play...  tough conditions show us whos who....  sunshine, no wind and modern striaghtball clubs bring alot more luck into it





edit-  id stop time in 1998 if it were me......  non of this Y2K nonsense..... if be swinging a 975D with a 7.0 rifle  in steel  to go with my Titleist Custom Grinds and a pair of Rusty 588s...

Edited by bladehunter, 13 November 2017 - 11:25 PM.

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13

#44 bladehunter

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:19 PM

View PostGamble Gamble, on 13 November 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

I don't understand this version of the neo-Luddite approach to golf.  If you want to play with old equipment do that.  If not, play the new stuff.  The new equipment is not the only reason these kids are out driving previous generations by 35 yards.  It's sheer athleticism, biomechanics, genetics and TALENT.  

The reason it is becoming more prevalent is because golf income on tour is eclipsing other high contact sports.  Follow the money.


your side of the table claims distance hasnt gone up....  which is it ?
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#45 bladehunter

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:30 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 November 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

View Postchisag, on 13 November 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

... Perhaps you are too young to have seen them, but the best players in the persimmon-balata era did not have pure swings. Far from it. What they did do was control the ball as well as how they navigated a course and had the mental discipline to recover from their bad shots or manage their good ones. "I think its how someone navigates a course and handles their emotions." was even truer then than it is now. Navigating a course was just more difficult because the ball moved much more and every little mistake was exaggerated. They all worked the ball, some one way and some both ways. Chi Chi Rodriguez, Tee Trevino, Raymond Floyd as well as Arnie and Jack. None of them had pure swings. They just were able to get the club head back to the ball the same way when needed for any given shot, even though they had what would be considered today, as serious swing flaws. It took much more talent to play back then. Again, I don't compare todays players to players then because we don't know how Dustin Johnson would have played back then. He grew up with different equipment and he has mastered them because the skills of 1970 is not needed today, but had he grown up during that time his game would have developed differently and he still may have been one of the best in the game.

Right, but its all relative.  They all had incredibly pure swings *relative to each other*.  They weren't competing against trackman, playing since you were 3 years old to the exclusion of all other sports, pressure plates, body maps, etc... etc... In terms of competing against each other, they all had pure swings.  Trevino's fade was just as unique as Rory's power alley draw.  Its just that we don't see it the same because it wasn't as good.  But relative to his playing competitor's the overall situation was identical.

We've learned over time that "working the ball" isn't usually very smart.  That isn't a technological advancement, its a metrical shotlink advancement.  Mastering one ballflight and using it 95% of the time (as today's pros do, per shotlink) is a more effective way to play.  We don't play that way because we have M2 irons, we play that way because shotlink has taught us that working the ball leads to higher scores over time, and GIR is king (not working it to a pin and risking missing, but hitting a stock shot over and over and over).

Your argument is akin to saying NBA players don't shoot mid range jumpers and only take 3 pointers because shoes are better now.  The game is understood better now.  It has nothing to do with technology.  Just like the NBA has learned through analytics that mid range jump shots lose games and three pointers win games, we've learned "working the ball", 'shaping shots" and "shotmaking" is simply an inferior way to play compared to always hitting the same spin/direction shot over and over.  It has nothing to do with the technology in the clubs, just like how the NBA is played now compared to 1965 has nothing to do with the sneakers.


dont think you can claim that is true till someone dethrowns Jack and Tiger..... Ball control and the ability to move both ways is still the best way.... what your saying gets us what we have now... 10 guys swapping wins.... with more to come.... the old way produces alpha dogs... when the talent level is high enough...  Ill concede that the single minded game is best when someone wins 80 times with it and/or 20 majors or so..... right now best you have us Jordan Spieth... which has alot to do to get there... and im a spieth fan...

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#46 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:22 AM

View PostLazyLightning22, on 13 November 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

View Postgolfandfishing, on 13 November 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

Pre adjustable driver, mainly because I don't own one and don't understand them and won't go to the range to hit balls to figure out what setting would work for me. Also because people who hit slices or snap hooks still hit them no matter what they have done with their fancy screwdriver.

I agree with this. I would stop right before the introduction of all the adjustable drivers. I don't think the adjustments make a world of difference. I feel like it's a way for companies to jack up the prices.

I like the adjustable drivers because it's easy to swap out and try different shafts.

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#47 Hubijerk

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 02:03 AM

This has turned into what I hoped it would, im workin at the moment but will read through in the am... but i agree that guys today grew up with different equipment thus honed different skills, or techniques as a result.  The swing is different today and the shots needed are different.  Would jack, asnd arnie, and hogan have developed the skills for the new stuff in this era, im sure.  But i do think its harder to dominate.  Something that i think gets overlooked sometimes too is how much better the greens are, that certainly plays a roll in scoring.
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#48 Gstew1930

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 04:45 AM

View Postcgasucks, on 13 November 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

Me personally 2003.  The 983K was one of the hottest drivers at that time and TM just started to release its TP line.  In those days, the TP meant not only an upgraded shaft, but TM claimed that the heads were made slightly differently as well.  So those heads sold at that time were made exactly the same as the ones in the tour van (I think).  The r510 TP was one of the first with that designation and still revered as a great club.  

Also, it was a great year for me personally and professionally as well :taunt:.

I agree, I loved my 983k. I also loved the strata tour ace. Anyone else play that ball?
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#49 scruffynick

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:32 AM

Wouldn't on the irons but the drivers are now way too big.....I'd say after the biggest big bertha in early naughties something should have been done.

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#50 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:04 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 November 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 November 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 13 November 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

I would argue the reverse is true.  The modern technology showcases "true talent" much better than the old.

I could not disagree more. It may bring "mano a mano" more to the front, but talent is also handling the adversity of course & elements. Equipment designed to mitigate that part diminishes what is integral to the game and sets golf a part from other sports. Jack & Tiger were not just long, they controlled the ball better than their peers.

It does exactly the opposite.  Technology makes distance available to all.  Golf is *less* "man a mano" because of tech, not more.  The technology gives bigger gains to those who swing slower.  Technology can help a ton with playing golf swing.  It can't help at all with playing golf.  It levels the playing field for slower swingers.

which is exactly why older tech is a better test.. you get to see who the better player is ..not who gets the luckier bounces or can hit the straightest ball....same as wind/rain play...  tough conditions show us whos who....  sunshine, no wind and modern striaghtball clubs bring alot more luck into it





edit-  id stop time in 1998 if it were me......  non of this Y2K nonsense..... if be swinging a 975D with a 7.0 rifle  in steel  to go with my Titleist Custom Grinds and a pair of Rusty 588s...

Wait, what do sunshine and no wind have anything to do with advancements in technology?!

We just have different definitions. When you say you want the "best to shine through" what you mean is that you want "the guy who can hit the ball the best (shotmaker, whatever)" to shrine through.

Technology equalizes golf swings. It does not equalize golf decisions. Just depends which you think is "golf talent". Tournament Golf is about 90% brain and 10% swing, so I don't care much about the technology distorting results.

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#51 Nard_S

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:11 AM

So the equipment has changed the dynamics of the game, fine. Problem is the courses really have not changed with them. You can extend tee boxes and narrow fairways all you want, it just a patch fix though.

Bobby Jones & Allister M. designed Augusta in the hickory era, the Links courses for The Open go even further back. Best majors of the last several years were not on those courses. So 50% of the major circuit that golf history is based upon is fast becoming irrelevant. Nice.

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#52 pierso2

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:16 AM

The title made me think of Cher's song If I Could Turn Back Time. Not sure why...but man it's gonna be a looooonnnnggggg week!

I'd almost agree with the OP. I'm gonna say 2008-2010. Back in 08, I was a senior in HS. Bag was set with Titleist 905R with V2 X 70g. 3 wood was an older Taylormade 200 series stock shaft. Hybrid was a Taylormade Rescue Dual TP with S300 shaft. Irons were Mizuno MP-30's with X100's and wedges were Titleist Spin Milled. Putter was a Ben Hogan Bettinardi Baby Ben. Ball was Bridgestone B330s. I still have the driver and irons. Might see if I can play a few rounds with them to see how they compare!
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22

#53 bladehunter

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:21 AM

 pinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

 bladehunter, on 13 November 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

 pinestreetgolf, on 13 November 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

 Nard_S, on 13 November 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

I would argue the reverse is true.  The modern technology showcases "true talent" much better than the old.

I could not disagree more. It may bring "mano a mano" more to the front, but talent is also handling the adversity of course & elements. Equipment designed to mitigate that part diminishes what is integral to the game and sets golf a part from other sports. Jack & Tiger were not just long, they controlled the ball better than their peers.

It does exactly the opposite.  Technology makes distance available to all.  Golf is *less* "man a mano" because of tech, not more.  The technology gives bigger gains to those who swing slower.  Technology can help a ton with playing golf swing.  It can't help at all with playing golf.  It levels the playing field for slower swingers.

which is exactly why older tech is a better test.. you get to see who the better player is ..not who gets the luckier bounces or can hit the straightest ball....same as wind/rain play...  tough conditions show us whos who....  sunshine, no wind and modern striaghtball clubs bring alot more luck into it





edit-  id stop time in 1998 if it were me......  non of this Y2K nonsense..... if be swinging a 975D with a 7.0 rifle  in steel  to go with my Titleist Custom Grinds and a pair of Rusty 588s...

Wait, what do sunshine and no wind have anything to do with advancements in technology?!

We just have different definitions. When you say you want the "best to shine through" what you mean is that you want "the guy who can hit the ball the best (shotmaker, whatever)" to shrine through.

Technology equalizes golf swings. It does not equalize golf decisions. Just depends which you think is "golf talent". Tournament Golf is about 90% brain and 10% swing, so I don't care much about the technology distorting results.



sure .... But why is it OK that tech lets the short guy etc as you said catch up?   I agree with you that it is the case too...   would be like short guys getting a boost to shoot or dunk in the NBA....
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#54 chisag

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:42 AM

 pinestreetgolf, on 13 November 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

 chisag, on 13 November 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

... Perhaps you are too young to have seen them, but the best players in the persimmon-balata era did not have pure swings. Far from it. What they did do was control the ball as well as how they navigated a course and had the mental discipline to recover from their bad shots or manage their good ones. "I think its how someone navigates a course and handles their emotions." was even truer then than it is now. Navigating a course was just more difficult because the ball moved much more and every little mistake was exaggerated. They all worked the ball, some one way and some both ways. Chi Chi Rodriguez, Tee Trevino, Raymond Floyd as well as Arnie and Jack. None of them had pure swings. They just were able to get the club head back to the ball the same way when needed for any given shot, even though they had what would be considered today, as serious swing flaws. It took much more talent to play back then. Again, I don't compare todays players to players then because we don't know how Dustin Johnson would have played back then. He grew up with different equipment and he has mastered them because the skills of 1970 is not needed today, but had he grown up during that time his game would have developed differently and he still may have been one of the best in the game.

Right, but its all relative.  They all had incredibly pure swings *relative to each other*.  They weren't competing against trackman, playing since you were 3 years old to the exclusion of all other sports, pressure plates, body maps, etc... etc... In terms of competing against each other, they all had pure swings.  Trevino's fade was just as unique as Rory's power alley draw.  Its just that we don't see it the same because it wasn't as good.  But relative to his playing competitor's the overall situation was identical.

We've learned over time that "working the ball" isn't usually very smart.  That isn't a technological advancement, its a metrical shotlink advancement.  Mastering one ballflight and using it 95% of the time (as today's pros do, per shotlink) is a more effective way to play.  We don't play that way because we have M2 irons, we play that way because shotlink has taught us that working the ball leads to higher scores over time, and GIR is king (not working it to a pin and risking missing, but hitting a stock shot over and over and over).

Your argument is akin to saying NBA players don't shoot mid range jumpers and only take 3 pointers because shoes are better now.  The game is understood better now.  It has nothing to do with technology.  Just like the NBA has learned through analytics that mid range jump shots lose games and three pointers win games, we've learned "working the ball", 'shaping shots" and "shotmaking" is simply an inferior way to play compared to always hitting the same spin/direction shot over and over.  It has nothing to do with the technology in the clubs, just like how the NBA is played now compared to 1965 has nothing to do with the sneakers.

... You can think whatever you want about technology and how it effects talent and I certainly have no intentions of attempting to change your mind about something I personally experienced, but you are completely missing the point about the balata era. They worked the ball because the ball was always moving not because it was a superior way to play, because it was not like todays ball that wants to go straight. Nicklaus said pick a shot and use the whole fairway working a fade from the left side or a draw from the right because the ball most definitely was gonna draw or fade. Starting it down the middle and not knowing which way the shot was gonna curve cut the fairway in half. Having played then I can assure a straight shot was extremely rare, even from the best players in the world. And because the ball moved so much it was harder to control. Especially if you were going at it with a fast swing, as the faster the swing the more the ball moved. Now add to that persimmon drivers had a ton of gear effect because the sweetspot was the size of the head of an eraser. Mishits were just much more penal.
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24

#55 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:01 AM

 chisag, on 14 November 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

 pinestreetgolf, on 13 November 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

 chisag, on 13 November 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

... Perhaps you are too young to have seen them, but the best players in the persimmon-balata era did not have pure swings. Far from it. What they did do was control the ball as well as how they navigated a course and had the mental discipline to recover from their bad shots or manage their good ones. "I think its how someone navigates a course and handles their emotions." was even truer then than it is now. Navigating a course was just more difficult because the ball moved much more and every little mistake was exaggerated. They all worked the ball, some one way and some both ways. Chi Chi Rodriguez, Tee Trevino, Raymond Floyd as well as Arnie and Jack. None of them had pure swings. They just were able to get the club head back to the ball the same way when needed for any given shot, even though they had what would be considered today, as serious swing flaws. It took much more talent to play back then. Again, I don't compare todays players to players then because we don't know how Dustin Johnson would have played back then. He grew up with different equipment and he has mastered them because the skills of 1970 is not needed today, but had he grown up during that time his game would have developed differently and he still may have been one of the best in the game.

Right, but its all relative.  They all had incredibly pure swings *relative to each other*.  They weren't competing against trackman, playing since you were 3 years old to the exclusion of all other sports, pressure plates, body maps, etc... etc... In terms of competing against each other, they all had pure swings.  Trevino's fade was just as unique as Rory's power alley draw.  Its just that we don't see it the same because it wasn't as good.  But relative to his playing competitor's the overall situation was identical.

We've learned over time that "working the ball" isn't usually very smart.  That isn't a technological advancement, its a metrical shotlink advancement.  Mastering one ballflight and using it 95% of the time (as today's pros do, per shotlink) is a more effective way to play.  We don't play that way because we have M2 irons, we play that way because shotlink has taught us that working the ball leads to higher scores over time, and GIR is king (not working it to a pin and risking missing, but hitting a stock shot over and over and over).

Your argument is akin to saying NBA players don't shoot mid range jumpers and only take 3 pointers because shoes are better now.  The game is understood better now.  It has nothing to do with technology.  Just like the NBA has learned through analytics that mid range jump shots lose games and three pointers win games, we've learned "working the ball", 'shaping shots" and "shotmaking" is simply an inferior way to play compared to always hitting the same spin/direction shot over and over.  It has nothing to do with the technology in the clubs, just like how the NBA is played now compared to 1965 has nothing to do with the sneakers.

... You can think whatever you want about technology and how it effects talent and I certainly have no intentions of attempting to change your mind about something I personally experienced, but you are completely missing the point about the balata era. They worked the ball because the ball was always moving not because it was a superior way to play, because it was not like todays ball that wants to go straight. Nicklaus said pick a shot and use the whole fairway working a fade from the left side or a draw from the right because the ball most definitely was gonna draw or fade. Starting it down the middle and not knowing which way the shot was gonna curve cut the fairway in half. Having played then I can assure a straight shot was extremely rare, even from the best players in the world. And because the ball moved so much it was harder to control. Especially if you were going at it with a fast swing, as the faster the swing the more the ball moved. Now add to that persimmon drivers had a ton of gear effect because the sweetspot was the size of the head of an eraser. Mishits were just much more penal.

I get it dude. I don't understand why playing with a whiffle ball "allows the talent of the best baseball players to shine through". A ball with an unpredictable flight makes talent less important to winning because it introduces variance. You are making my argument. If the ball flies every which way the result is way more luck based than a ball that doesn't.

Would you argue that Pete Rose (or whoever). isn't the best hitter because he doesn't hit a whiffle ball? I mean, when Pete hit it it went where he hit it. It didn't unpredictably curve in the air? What a dope. Nobody would argue that making the ball less predictable would help spot "true talent". Otherwise you'd have whiffle balls at baseball tryouts.

I'll accept you liked it better, but to say a balata ball takes "more talent" because you "don't know which way it will curve" is silly.

It's not like just jack was using it. They all had to deal with it.  It just made it more random. A balata ball makes it harder to play golf for sure, but when ALL players are using it the "difficultly factor" is cancelled out - they all have to hit it. Since they all had to hit it and it wasn't predictable, the increased variance obscured talent. You don't bring talent to the top by introducing a whiffle ball that flies wherever and saying "deal with this" UNLESS only one player has to use it. If everyone has to use it it just obscures reality (like having a home
Run derby with a whiffle ball - doesn't tell you nearly as much as a straight ball).

If we set out to find the most talented hitter in baseball, would we use old maple bats that were super thin and a whiffle ball? In tennis, would we use the old 1960s wooden racquets and the semi-hard grass balls that randomly don't go up? Of course not. We wouldn't do it in golf either.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 14 November 2017 - 11:04 AM.

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#56 OsnolaKinnard

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:04 AM

I don't want to stop time, but I would love to have the original Maxfli Revolution 90 back as well as real deal Royal Precision Rifle and Rifle spinner wedge shafts.


Edited by OsnolaKinnard, 14 November 2017 - 11:05 AM.

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#57 chisag

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:18 AM

 pinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

 chisag, on 14 November 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

 pinestreetgolf, on 13 November 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

 chisag, on 13 November 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

... Perhaps you are too young to have seen them, but the best players in the persimmon-balata era did not have pure swings. Far from it. What they did do was control the ball as well as how they navigated a course and had the mental discipline to recover from their bad shots or manage their good ones. "I think its how someone navigates a course and handles their emotions." was even truer then than it is now. Navigating a course was just more difficult because the ball moved much more and every little mistake was exaggerated. They all worked the ball, some one way and some both ways. Chi Chi Rodriguez, Tee Trevino, Raymond Floyd as well as Arnie and Jack. None of them had pure swings. They just were able to get the club head back to the ball the same way when needed for any given shot, even though they had what would be considered today, as serious swing flaws. It took much more talent to play back then. Again, I don't compare todays players to players then because we don't know how Dustin Johnson would have played back then. He grew up with different equipment and he has mastered them because the skills of 1970 is not needed today, but had he grown up during that time his game would have developed differently and he still may have been one of the best in the game.

Right, but its all relative.  They all had incredibly pure swings *relative to each other*.  They weren't competing against trackman, playing since you were 3 years old to the exclusion of all other sports, pressure plates, body maps, etc... etc... In terms of competing against each other, they all had pure swings.  Trevino's fade was just as unique as Rory's power alley draw.  Its just that we don't see it the same because it wasn't as good.  But relative to his playing competitor's the overall situation was identical.

We've learned over time that "working the ball" isn't usually very smart.  That isn't a technological advancement, its a metrical shotlink advancement.  Mastering one ballflight and using it 95% of the time (as today's pros do, per shotlink) is a more effective way to play.  We don't play that way because we have M2 irons, we play that way because shotlink has taught us that working the ball leads to higher scores over time, and GIR is king (not working it to a pin and risking missing, but hitting a stock shot over and over and over).

Your argument is akin to saying NBA players don't shoot mid range jumpers and only take 3 pointers because shoes are better now.  The game is understood better now.  It has nothing to do with technology.  Just like the NBA has learned through analytics that mid range jump shots lose games and three pointers win games, we've learned "working the ball", 'shaping shots" and "shotmaking" is simply an inferior way to play compared to always hitting the same spin/direction shot over and over.  It has nothing to do with the technology in the clubs, just like how the NBA is played now compared to 1965 has nothing to do with the sneakers.

... You can think whatever you want about technology and how it effects talent and I certainly have no intentions of attempting to change your mind about something I personally experienced, but you are completely missing the point about the balata era. They worked the ball because the ball was always moving not because it was a superior way to play, because it was not like todays ball that wants to go straight. Nicklaus said pick a shot and use the whole fairway working a fade from the left side or a draw from the right because the ball most definitely was gonna draw or fade. Starting it down the middle and not knowing which way the shot was gonna curve cut the fairway in half. Having played then I can assure a straight shot was extremely rare, even from the best players in the world. And because the ball moved so much it was harder to control. Especially if you were going at it with a fast swing, as the faster the swing the more the ball moved. Now add to that persimmon drivers had a ton of gear effect because the sweetspot was the size of the head of an eraser. Mishits were just much more penal.

I get it dude. I don't understand why playing with a whiffle ball "allows the talent of the best baseball players to shine through". A ball with an unpredictable flight makes talent less important to winning because it introduces variance. You are making my argument. If the ball flies every which way the result is way more luck based than a ball that doesn't.

Would you argue that Pete Rose (or whoever). isn't the best hitter because he doesn't hit a whiffle ball? I mean, when Pete hit it it went where he hit it. It didn't unpredictably curve in the air? What a dope. Nobody would argue that making the ball less predictable would help spot "true talent". Otherwise you'd have whiffle balls at baseball tryouts.

I'll accept you liked it better, but to say a balata ball takes "more talent" because you "don't know which way it will curve" is silly.

It's not like just jack was using it. They all had to deal with it.  It just made it more random. A balata ball makes it harder to play golf for sure, but when ALL players are using it the "difficultly factor" is cancelled out - they all have to hit it. Since they all had to hit it and it wasn't predictable, the increased variance obscured talent. You don't bring talent to the top by introducing a whiffle ball that flies wherever and saying "deal with this" UNLESS only one player has to use it. If everyone has to use it it just obscures reality (like having a home
Run derby with a whiffle ball - doesn't tell you nearly as much as a straight ball).

If we set out to find the most talented hitter in baseball, would we use old maple bats that were super thin and a whiffle ball? In tennis, would we use the old 1960s wooden racquets and the semi-hard grass balls that randomly don't go up? Of course not. We wouldn't do it in golf either.

... Read many of your posts on WRX and again the last thing I am trying to do is convince you of anything. You will spin your answer to suit your purpose and that is an exercise in futility. Wiffle ball? Sneakers? Really? Should I counter with white belts make millennial's bad golfers which is equally as ridiculous and off topic... smh. The point was the ball curved and it took skill to control it, not that skilled golfers did not know which way it would curve, quite the contrary as they curved it on purpose. Average golfers did not know which way it would curve because most just tried to hit it straight with very little success. I competed with a balata ball, taught with a balata ball and attended PGA Tour events with a balata ball and although you were not around then but are as always an expert of that era. Kinda like me saying Bobby Jones was over rated with his hickory shafts and easy courses. Fwiw, the discussion over which era took more skill is a valid discussion and has gone on in all sports with no absolute answer, other than yours of course, and I am not interested in arguing with you for the sake of arguing.

Edited by chisag, 14 November 2017 - 11:20 AM.

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#58 JoeJoeJoeUrBoat

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:33 AM

Haven't been around the game enough consistently. This is only my 4th season with an actual membership, going into my 5th. Wish I started when I was 5 and not 20.

I do play with a few older gents and they love modern tech. Seeing the look in their eyes when they smash a 250 yard drive with their new M2 is something else. I wouldn't go back a day.
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#59 rsballer10

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:46 PM

 pinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

 chisag, on 14 November 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

 pinestreetgolf, on 13 November 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

 chisag, on 13 November 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

... Perhaps you are too young to have seen them, but the best players in the persimmon-balata era did not have pure swings. Far from it. What they did do was control the ball as well as how they navigated a course and had the mental discipline to recover from their bad shots or manage their good ones. "I think its how someone navigates a course and handles their emotions." was even truer then than it is now. Navigating a course was just more difficult because the ball moved much more and every little mistake was exaggerated. They all worked the ball, some one way and some both ways. Chi Chi Rodriguez, Tee Trevino, Raymond Floyd as well as Arnie and Jack. None of them had pure swings. They just were able to get the club head back to the ball the same way when needed for any given shot, even though they had what would be considered today, as serious swing flaws. It took much more talent to play back then. Again, I don't compare todays players to players then because we don't know how Dustin Johnson would have played back then. He grew up with different equipment and he has mastered them because the skills of 1970 is not needed today, but had he grown up during that time his game would have developed differently and he still may have been one of the best in the game.

Right, but its all relative.  They all had incredibly pure swings *relative to each other*.  They weren't competing against trackman, playing since you were 3 years old to the exclusion of all other sports, pressure plates, body maps, etc... etc... In terms of competing against each other, they all had pure swings.  Trevino's fade was just as unique as Rory's power alley draw.  Its just that we don't see it the same because it wasn't as good.  But relative to his playing competitor's the overall situation was identical.

We've learned over time that "working the ball" isn't usually very smart.  That isn't a technological advancement, its a metrical shotlink advancement.  Mastering one ballflight and using it 95% of the time (as today's pros do, per shotlink) is a more effective way to play.  We don't play that way because we have M2 irons, we play that way because shotlink has taught us that working the ball leads to higher scores over time, and GIR is king (not working it to a pin and risking missing, but hitting a stock shot over and over and over).

Your argument is akin to saying NBA players don't shoot mid range jumpers and only take 3 pointers because shoes are better now.  The game is understood better now.  It has nothing to do with technology.  Just like the NBA has learned through analytics that mid range jump shots lose games and three pointers win games, we've learned "working the ball", 'shaping shots" and "shotmaking" is simply an inferior way to play compared to always hitting the same spin/direction shot over and over.  It has nothing to do with the technology in the clubs, just like how the NBA is played now compared to 1965 has nothing to do with the sneakers.

... You can think whatever you want about technology and how it effects talent and I certainly have no intentions of attempting to change your mind about something I personally experienced, but you are completely missing the point about the balata era. They worked the ball because the ball was always moving not because it was a superior way to play, because it was not like todays ball that wants to go straight. Nicklaus said pick a shot and use the whole fairway working a fade from the left side or a draw from the right because the ball most definitely was gonna draw or fade. Starting it down the middle and not knowing which way the shot was gonna curve cut the fairway in half. Having played then I can assure a straight shot was extremely rare, even from the best players in the world. And because the ball moved so much it was harder to control. Especially if you were going at it with a fast swing, as the faster the swing the more the ball moved. Now add to that persimmon drivers had a ton of gear effect because the sweetspot was the size of the head of an eraser. Mishits were just much more penal.

I get it dude. I don't understand why playing with a whiffle ball "allows the talent of the best baseball players to shine through". A ball with an unpredictable flight makes talent less important to winning because it introduces variance. You are making my argument. If the ball flies every which way the result is way more luck based than a ball that doesn't.

Would you argue that Pete Rose (or whoever). isn't the best hitter because he doesn't hit a whiffle ball? I mean, when Pete hit it it went where he hit it. It didn't unpredictably curve in the air? What a dope. Nobody would argue that making the ball less predictable would help spot "true talent". Otherwise you'd have whiffle balls at baseball tryouts.

I'll accept you liked it better, but to say a balata ball takes "more talent" because you "don't know which way it will curve" is silly.

It's not like just jack was using it. They all had to deal with it.  It just made it more random. A balata ball makes it harder to play golf for sure, but when ALL players are using it the "difficultly factor" is cancelled out - they all have to hit it. Since they all had to hit it and it wasn't predictable, the increased variance obscured talent. You don't bring talent to the top by introducing a whiffle ball that flies wherever and saying "deal with this" UNLESS only one player has to use it. If everyone has to use it it just obscures reality (like having a home
Run derby with a whiffle ball - doesn't tell you nearly as much as a straight ball).

If we set out to find the most talented hitter in baseball, would we use old maple bats that were super thin and a whiffle ball? In tennis, would we use the old 1960s wooden racquets and the semi-hard grass balls that randomly don't go up? Of course not. We wouldn't do it in golf either.
The flight with balata is not random. The ball spun and curved more. It's not really the equivalent of a wiffle ball.

I would like to see the ball completely rolled back, not necessarily to balata.

Everyone does have to play the same ball, no matter what. But it does boil down to what do we want the game to be about. Precision, shot making, control. That's what I want. Right now it's geared for distance, and putting.

I'd like to see the game be one where both a bomber and a shotmaker can both survive on the PGA tour.

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#60 Bye

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 03:58 PM

 rsballer10, on 14 November 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

 pinestreetgolf, on 14 November 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

 chisag, on 14 November 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

 pinestreetgolf, on 13 November 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

 chisag, on 13 November 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

... Perhaps you are too young to have seen them, but the best players in the persimmon-balata era did not have pure swings. Far from it. What they did do was control the ball as well as how they navigated a course and had the mental discipline to recover from their bad shots or manage their good ones. "I think its how someone navigates a course and handles their emotions." was even truer then than it is now. Navigating a course was just more difficult because the ball moved much more and every little mistake was exaggerated. They all worked the ball, some one way and some both ways. Chi Chi Rodriguez, Tee Trevino, Raymond Floyd as well as Arnie and Jack. None of them had pure swings. They just were able to get the club head back to the ball the same way when needed for any given shot, even though they had what would be considered today, as serious swing flaws. It took much more talent to play back then. Again, I don't compare todays players to players then because we don't know how Dustin Johnson would have played back then. He grew up with different equipment and he has mastered them because the skills of 1970 is not needed today, but had he grown up during that time his game would have developed differently and he still may have been one of the best in the game.

Right, but its all relative.  They all had incredibly pure swings *relative to each other*.  They weren't competing against trackman, playing since you were 3 years old to the exclusion of all other sports, pressure plates, body maps, etc... etc... In terms of competing against each other, they all had pure swings.  Trevino's fade was just as unique as Rory's power alley draw.  Its just that we don't see it the same because it wasn't as good.  But relative to his playing competitor's the overall situation was identical.

We've learned over time that "working the ball" isn't usually very smart.  That isn't a technological advancement, its a metrical shotlink advancement.  Mastering one ballflight and using it 95% of the time (as today's pros do, per shotlink) is a more effective way to play.  We don't play that way because we have M2 irons, we play that way because shotlink has taught us that working the ball leads to higher scores over time, and GIR is king (not working it to a pin and risking missing, but hitting a stock shot over and over and over).

Your argument is akin to saying NBA players don't shoot mid range jumpers and only take 3 pointers because shoes are better now.  The game is understood better now.  It has nothing to do with technology.  Just like the NBA has learned through analytics that mid range jump shots lose games and three pointers win games, we've learned "working the ball", 'shaping shots" and "shotmaking" is simply an inferior way to play compared to always hitting the same spin/direction shot over and over.  It has nothing to do with the technology in the clubs, just like how the NBA is played now compared to 1965 has nothing to do with the sneakers.

... You can think whatever you want about technology and how it effects talent and I certainly have no intentions of attempting to change your mind about something I personally experienced, but you are completely missing the point about the balata era. They worked the ball because the ball was always moving not because it was a superior way to play, because it was not like todays ball that wants to go straight. Nicklaus said pick a shot and use the whole fairway working a fade from the left side or a draw from the right because the ball most definitely was gonna draw or fade. Starting it down the middle and not knowing which way the shot was gonna curve cut the fairway in half. Having played then I can assure a straight shot was extremely rare, even from the best players in the world. And because the ball moved so much it was harder to control. Especially if you were going at it with a fast swing, as the faster the swing the more the ball moved. Now add to that persimmon drivers had a ton of gear effect because the sweetspot was the size of the head of an eraser. Mishits were just much more penal.

I get it dude. I don't understand why playing with a whiffle ball "allows the talent of the best baseball players to shine through". A ball with an unpredictable flight makes talent less important to winning because it introduces variance. You are making my argument. If the ball flies every which way the result is way more luck based than a ball that doesn't.

Would you argue that Pete Rose (or whoever). isn't the best hitter because he doesn't hit a whiffle ball? I mean, when Pete hit it it went where he hit it. It didn't unpredictably curve in the air? What a dope. Nobody would argue that making the ball less predictable would help spot "true talent". Otherwise you'd have whiffle balls at baseball tryouts.

I'll accept you liked it better, but to say a balata ball takes "more talent" because you "don't know which way it will curve" is silly.

It's not like just jack was using it. They all had to deal with it.  It just made it more random. A balata ball makes it harder to play golf for sure, but when ALL players are using it the "difficultly factor" is cancelled out - they all have to hit it. Since they all had to hit it and it wasn't predictable, the increased variance obscured talent. You don't bring talent to the top by introducing a whiffle ball that flies wherever and saying "deal with this" UNLESS only one player has to use it. If everyone has to use it it just obscures reality (like having a home
Run derby with a whiffle ball - doesn't tell you nearly as much as a straight ball).

If we set out to find the most talented hitter in baseball, would we use old maple bats that were super thin and a whiffle ball? In tennis, would we use the old 1960s wooden racquets and the semi-hard grass balls that randomly don't go up? Of course not. We wouldn't do it in golf either.
The flight with balata is not random. The ball spun and curved more. It's not really the equivalent of a wiffle ball.

I would like to see the ball completely rolled back, not necessarily to balata.

Everyone does have to play the same ball, no matter what. But it does boil down to what do we want the game to be about. Precision, shot making, control. That's what I want. Right now it's geared for distance, and putting.

I'd like to see the game be one where both a bomber and a shotmaker can both survive on the PGA tour.

Well said, maybe then some of the older classic courses could be used again for tour events.

A ball with the distance of a balata but with a modern cover would be perfect.

I've stopped watching golf on tv. It seems to be mostly a bombers course/putting contest or a straight hitters course. Styles make fights.

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