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Pin Placements


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#31 Sean2

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 08:44 PM

View PostPepperturbo, on 07 November 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

Encounter that rather often.  Does it annoy me, no.  It does, however, make birdies more difficult so PAR becomes my target, which I am good with anyway.

Courses divide greens up into 7 day quadrants.  When the superintendent comes in the am, he tells someone to place cups/pins.  Typically, the person placing them is clueless about fair positions, undulations or tight spots.  He just does what he's told.

I don't mind if a few pins are placed this way...but not all 18 of them.

View Post2putttom, on 07 November 2017 - 08:03 PM, said:

"gotta exercise all area's of the greens" a quote from my superintendent . That being said, Sean it sucks cause some of greens have area's meant to penalizing for poor approach shots.

Amen!

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#32 Sean2

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 08:46 PM

View PostLarry The Golfing Doc, on 07 November 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 07 November 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

I played a course where all the pins were tucked...not one was in the middle of the green. And the problem with those pins was no sane golfer could attack any of them. The other issue was, if you hit the ball in the middle of the green you were faced with a long putt. So your good shot? Well, not so good. lol

Not sure if any of you played a course with those kinds of pins, but I did find it a bit annoying. lol

My most played local course other than my club typically has easier than usual greens. They're large, slow, and break very predictably.  I played there about a month ago only to find the pins in ridiculous spots. Several front nine greens are two tiered. On all of them  the pin was in the middle of the hill between tiers. I played well on the front and had a terrible score due to putting. 10 feet above ended up 15 feet below. A couple of them required you to hole a putt from over 4 feet because you couldn't get the ball to stop closer than that. I naturally complained a little when I made the turn to the director of golf-that sounds much more formal than it should, he's a buddy of mine and I told him his hole placement sucked that day-and he told me that the day before they played an event where they tried to trick out the course to see what kind of high scores they could produce. Ergo the stupid hole placements. There was a frost delay that morning so they didn't have a chance to swap them out. Upon hearing this I promptly crumpled up my scorecard and played as an outlaw on the back.

Yes...it can make a good ball striking day turn out not so good. I have seen pins placed on a side of a hill as you discussed. The USGA recommends that there be a flat area 2 to 3 feet around the hole.

View PostDivinDave, on 07 November 2017 - 11:33 PM, said:

Yup.
Every. dam. Sunday.  Some of these greens keepers are some diabolical SOBs.

Lol!
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#33 Sean2

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 08:48 PM

View PostKYMAR, on 07 November 2017 - 11:36 PM, said:

I set the sunday Pins at my home course quite often.

To know my mindset, see my avatar.

Even most clowns would shy away from you Kymar.
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#34 Sean2

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 08:50 PM

View PostConrad1953, on 07 November 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:

Happens a lot where I play. I don't really care where the pins are myself.
The big problem is tucked pins and pins on slopes just slow play way down
for everyone. That's fine on a Monday but on a busy weekend it doesn't
make sense.

But, OTOH, people come down here to play the trail and they want the
courses to play tough so that's what we're gonna get most of the time,
even though it leads to long waits for the greens to clear on some holes.

Conrad, while we were playing we talked about that. On one par 3 we waited, and waited, and waited for the group in front of us to clear the green. We couldn't figure out what took them so long...until we got up there and had to putt. lol

View PostHatsForBats, on 08 November 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

Every single one was either tucked or on a slope this past Saturday. All 27 holes. It was enjoyable though as it was a 5-man scramble with 8-inch cups. Not something I would want to try with normal size cups or if it wasn't a scramble. Maybe a scramble with normal size cups.

Not sure why it need to be a 5-man scramble. Likely just the extra $$$ for the course.

That's a new one on me.
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#35 Sean2

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 08:52 PM

View Postphil75070, on 08 November 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

We are also finding that this time of year the grass growth has stopped so old hole plugs are very obvious. The guy cutting the holes will place a new hole within a foot or two of an old hole that hasn't healed yet and won't for a while. Add to that the irregular depths of the holes they cut and one old plug will be raised and another sunken. The problem rests with the superintendents not providing the proper training or supervision and just sending someone out to get it done because they have to.

Back in the 70's and 80's I played a lot of course that had two holes cut on every green. You would play to the one that had the flagstick in it and when you were done playing the hole you put the flagstick in the other hole. This distributed the traffic on each green but obviously the system wasn't used for tournaments.

I've seen that in the winter, but not during what I call GHIN season (when you are still able to post a score).

View Postthesaxemachine, on 08 November 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

There's tucked and then there's impossible. A tucked pin should be a challenge, but you should be able to get at it with a good shot. Then there are placements where there shouldn't be a pin at all, where good shots and good putts are punished.

Yes. This was exactly the case.

View Postrmakhani, on 08 November 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

Tucked I can live with, the ones that are on slopes and just unreasonable are the ones that make you mad.  All you can do then is hope to get in some putting practice or it will make you explode

Lol...we were a bit frustrated. :-)

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#36 Sean2

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 08:55 PM

[quote name='exgolfpro' timestamp='1510156088' post='16414106']
Our course uses a grid of 9 hole locations on each green.  For example:

1   5   7
9   2   4
3   6   8

This is repeated in the same order on the back 9

10  14  16
18  11  13
12  15  17

So each 9 holes has 3 front, 3 middle, 3 back....3 left, 3 middle, 3 right.  And each 9 has its 'corresponding back 9 hole' in the same location.  So if 1 is back left, then 10 is back left.  If 2 is center, then 11 is center.  Each day the grid shifts so that over the course of 9 days, they have used all 9 locations on a green.
[/quote]

That I can accept, but some of these pins were only 6 feet or so from the fringe.

[quote name='negolfking' timestamp='1510162777' post='16414614']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1510090549' post='16411130']
I played a course where all the pins were tucked...not one was in the middle of the green. And the problem with those pins was no sane golfer could attack any of them. The other issue was, if you hit the ball in the middle of the green you were faced with a long putt. So your good shot? Well, not so good. lol

Not sure if any of you played a course with those kinds of pins, but I did find it a bit annoying. lol
[/quote]
Sean would this have happen to be O S L in Bridgewater?
[/quote]

No, it was actually Pembroke.

[quote name='finleysg' timestamp='1510163078' post='16414636']
My home course has 7 or 8 holes (out of 27) where the hardest pin positions (in terms on putting difficulty) are in middle of the green. You have to get towards the edges to find easier locations to putt on. Two of those greens have 5-6% slope in the middle. So it's a bit of a pick your poison situation on those holes: "easier" approach or "easier" putt.

A few years ago, we hosted a women's local college event and our assistant pro, who did the course setup for the event, got an earful from one of the coaches who complained about too many "easy" pins because they were in the middle. The gist of the complaint was that the women didn't need any favors. It wasn't until after the round that the coach truly understood how difficult the course had been set up.
[/quote]

I have seen a few greens like this, but not many.

[quote name='tngolf22' timestamp='1510164383' post='16414754']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1510090549' post='16411130']
I played a course where all the pins were tucked...not one was in the middle of the green. And the problem with those pins was no sane golfer could attack any of them. The other issue was, if you hit the ball in the middle of the green you were faced with a long putt. So your good shot? Well, not so good. lol

Not sure if any of you played a course with those kinds of pins, but I did find it a bit annoying. lol
[/quote]

A course I was a member at used to have a "tough day" tournament where they put all the pins in ridiculous spots.  A score in the low 80s would usually win it.  I wonder if you played the course on the same day it had something similar going on?  Some courses call it "greenskeeper's revenge" lol.
[/quote]

I think this was more the latter than the former. :-)
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#37 Sean2

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 08:57 PM

View Postrsballer10, on 08 November 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

As long as the pins arent on a ridge, and as long as they are far enough from the fringe (I think I see this being the most frequent mistake) I don't really even think about it while I'm playing. Every once in a while there will be an impossible one that gets me mad, but what can ya do. Everyone else has to play it too...

True, but it's not like we were playing in a tournament. We left a lot of strokes on the table because of the pin placements.

View PostRickKimbrell, on 08 November 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

Unless it is in a tournament...I really do not care as long as you can reasonably stop a putt near the hole.
In tournaments, I believe there should be a good mix of pin placements and not every hole be hidden or every hole easy as can be.

And I expect that. I don't want every pin in the middle of the green...but hey, one would have been nice. lol
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#38 Sean2

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 08:59 PM

View PostBNGL, on 08 November 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 07 November 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

I played a course where all the pins were tucked...not one was in the middle of the green. And the problem with those pins was no sane golfer could attack any of them. The other issue was, if you hit the ball in the middle of the green you were faced with a long putt. So your good shot? Well, not so good. lol

Not sure if any of you played a course with those kinds of pins, but I did find it a bit annoying. lol

Talk to the sup or director of agronomy. We're usually pretty practical. Or speak to a committee member and they'll approach us.

I looked around for someone, but didn't see anyone. I could have mentioned something at the pro shop, but it simply didn't occur to me. We figured whoever set the pins doesn't play much golf.

This was my first experience with this kind of set-up.

Edited by Sean2, 08 November 2017 - 09:00 PM.

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#39 greg0241

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 09:49 PM

View Postnegolfking, on 08 November 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 07 November 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

I played a course where all the pins were tucked...not one was in the middle of the green. And the problem with those pins was no sane golfer could attack any of them. The other issue was, if you hit the ball in the middle of the green you were faced with a long putt. So your good shot? Well, not so good. lol

Not sure if any of you played a course with those kinds of pins, but I did find it a bit annoying. lol
Sean would this have happen to be O S L in Bridgewater?

Are you guys from the the south shore? I️ just moved to Duxbury

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#40 poppyhillsguy

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 11:54 PM

I cut cups 2-4 times a week.  We are on a numbering system with 7 locations per green.  I make my pins easier (not tucked) when I know it is senior day (Wednesdays) or ladies day (Thursdays).  But I really don't get to much freedom about where they go since it's on a numbering system.

My pins may be tougher on some days (they don't allow us green-keepers to get coffee from the gym/clubhouse area), so it's not my fault.


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#41 sui generis

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:46 AM

A timely Ask Linda on the topic.

------------

Ask Linda #1641-Impossible hole locations
Posted: 08 Nov 2017 12:00 AM PST
Hello Linda,
This question is different. Can course designers/superintendents go too far and break some kind of rule?

I play a course that has a few hilly greens – VERY hilly greens. If the ball is anywhere above the hole, there is no way physics will allow the ball to stop unless the center of the hole gets in the way. You could strike it with a feather and it wouldn’t stop. Then, it rolls and rolls off the green and down a hill and the next shot (after a five-foot putt) is a 100-yard uphill wedge.

Even worse, you can have an uphill putt – the ball will stop, and then start to roll backwards, and backwards and off the green until you have that 100-yard uphill wedge.

When does an impossible green go beyond fair play and the rules of course construction and pin placement?? Are there such rules??

Thank you,
Lou from Orrville, Ohio

Dear Lou,

There is no rule in the Rules of Golf that governs hole location, but there is a recommendation in The USGA Handicap System manual that should be adhered to by course superintendents. Section 15-3 (iii) states as follows:

An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.

The use of the word “should” indicates a strong recommendation, not a requirement. However, holes that are poorly located reward luck rather than skill, and take the fun out of the game, which can be a disincentive for repeat business. If your efforts to convince the superintendent to follow the recommendations of the USGA fail, a casual mention to the owner that you and your friends did not enjoy the course and will not return because of the impossible hole locations might be an effective wake-up call.

Here is a link to an FAQ from the USGA regarding hole location that I believe you will find helpful: https://www.usga.org...idx=143&Rule=16

And here is a link to a lengthy, detailed article about how to choose hole locations, written by a golf course designer:
http://gsrpdf.lib.ms...2008/080721.pdf

Linda
Copyright © 2017 Linda Miller. All rights reserved.

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#42 Sean2

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 04:35 PM

View Postgreg0241, on 08 November 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

View Postnegolfking, on 08 November 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 07 November 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

I played a course where all the pins were tucked...not one was in the middle of the green. And the problem with those pins was no sane golfer could attack any of them. The other issue was, if you hit the ball in the middle of the green you were faced with a long putt. So your good shot? Well, not so good. lol

Not sure if any of you played a course with those kinds of pins, but I did find it a bit annoying. lol
Sean would this have happen to be O S L in Bridgewater?

Are you guys from the the south shore? I️ just moved to Duxbury

Yes, I live on the South Shore. Welcome to the neighborhood! lol
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#43 negolfking

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 04:42 PM

View Postgreg0241, on 08 November 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

View Postnegolfking, on 08 November 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 07 November 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

I played a course where all the pins were tucked...not one was in the middle of the green. And the problem with those pins was no sane golfer could attack any of them. The other issue was, if you hit the ball in the middle of the green you were faced with a long putt. So your good shot? Well, not so good. lol

Not sure if any of you played a course with those kinds of pins, but I did find it a bit annoying. lol
Sean would this have happen to be O S L in Bridgewater?

Are you guys from the the south shore? I️ just moved to Duxbury
Norton Here

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