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Race to Dubai in decline & Failed Roles Series? Or Something else...


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#31 JonnyKrasnodar

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 12:29 PM

100% this. The courses are more interesting than the PGA Tour, there are regularly hot finishes to events and the innovations this year have been refreshing. Whether they work to "grow" the tour is another thing.

I'd like to see the big names playing more as proven this year, any that have have generally struggled. But as they don't need the money they won't put themselves out there.

Can't remember the course but the tournament in India is one of the hardest anywhere in the world.


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#32 CrushSticks

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 11:21 PM

View PostDave230, on 11 November 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

View PostSantiago Golf, on 10 November 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

View PostCrushSticks, on 10 November 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

As someone who is an avid golf fan and watches all the major tours( mostly US pga, but I️ dabble in the others) I️ am familiar with most of the players and I️ just can’t get turned on by Euro your golf. I️ still watch because there are some amazing players, but I️ personally am unfamiliar with the courses, don’t see many “rivalries”, and don’t understand the location choices.

I️ mean let’s play more golf in Europe and utilize more of the great Irish and Scottish courses. That would get me watching more.
Many of the courses you are thinking of in Scottland and Ireland have no interest in hosting such events and probably not have any finacial gain

Yeah the courses that used to hold events outside the national Opens were the likes of The K Club, Gleneagles and Mount Juliet, because they had cash to burn. Many of the links courses would have no interest in the effort that goes into hosting a European Tour event.

Alright. But do you disagree with the theory that going to these types of courses would help the tour? Couldn’t the tour work with the courses and get better sponsors to help host events at more well known European courses.

I️ am obviously just spitballing, but one tournament, Dunhill Links, played across three courses just doesn’t seem like enough links style golf for me.
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#33 Santiago Golf

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 07:09 AM

View PostCrushSticks, on 11 November 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

View PostDave230, on 11 November 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

View PostSantiago Golf, on 10 November 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

View PostCrushSticks, on 10 November 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

As someone who is an avid golf fan and watches all the major tours( mostly US pga, but I️ dabble in the others) I️ am familiar with most of the players and I️ just can’t get turned on by Euro your golf. I️ still watch because there are some amazing players, but I️ personally am unfamiliar with the courses, don’t see many “rivalries”, and don’t understand the location choices.

I️ mean let’s play more golf in Europe and utilize more of the great Irish and Scottish courses. That would get me watching more.
Many of the courses you are thinking of in Scottland and Ireland have no interest in hosting such events and probably not have any finacial gain

Yeah the courses that used to hold events outside the national Opens were the likes of The K Club, Gleneagles and Mount Juliet, because they had cash to burn. Many of the links courses would have no interest in the effort that goes into hosting a European Tour event.

Alright. But do you disagree with the theory that going to these types of courses would help the tour? Couldn’t the tour work with the courses and get better sponsors to help host events at more well known European courses.

I️ am obviously just spitballing, but one tournament, Dunhill Links, played across three courses just doesn’t seem like enough links style golf for me.
European Tour Links stops
Open Championship
Dunhill Links
Scottish Open
Irish Open
French Open
British Masters
Golf Sixes

So thats 7 events on Links and probably more if you consider some other courses as hybrid links
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#34 youraway2

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 07:00 PM

I guess it's because I'm located in the US, but I find the RTD almost as boring as the FedEx Cup.  Yes it's big money, but for me it does nothing for the game, so I could care less.  I do enjoy the ET in the AM here in the US on early morning Golf Channel.  I get to see courses I never see normally and others that I just think are over-the-top awesome.  I do hate the stupid signage the ET now liters some beautiful holes with, but follow the money.  Maybe if the ET was really an ET, I would be more interested.  For instance thinking the ET will be at Ballybunion next week, or Royal Portrush, etc. would be exciting to me.  I would look forward to great courses, known scenic holes, and perhaps, top competitors.

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#35 Dave230

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 08:21 PM

View PostCrushSticks, on 11 November 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

Alright. But do you disagree with the theory that going to these types of courses would help the tour? Couldn’t the tour work with the courses and get better sponsors to help host events at more well known European courses.

I️ am obviously just spitballing, but one tournament, Dunhill Links, played across three courses just doesn’t seem like enough links style golf for me.

Despite the fact that the top 10 courses in Ireland by Golf Digest are all links courses, Irish Opens has been dominated by parkland courses since the 1990s, which was a shame, although the venues were fine in their own right. The Scottish Open was held at Loch Lomond for 14 years, another parkland. So it's a bit of an improvement to see a three-week links swing now on the European Tour, with the Irish, Scottish and Open all going to be hosted at links courses.

This year, we had Portstewart, Dundonald and Birkdale, it worked quite well I think.

To have more than that in a year? I think it's a bit like grass court tennis, everybody loves Wimbledon, and the grass court season is short but if there were too many grass events, would it be so loved? It might be the same if there were too many weeks on links courses.

Links courses are by the sea, mostly in very remote areas. The Irish Open this year will be in Ballyliffin, which is miles away from an international airport, with dodgy infrastructure around it, and poor roads. It's quite quaint and international tourists would like how peaceful it is there, but somewhere like that is not made to host large international events on a regular basis. Everybody golf fan would love to watch the Scottish Open at Royal Dornoch, but they might not realise just how far up the Highlands that Dornoch actually is.

This is the case for most links courses, in comparison to parkland courses which are often beside major cities. The exception is the Open courses, which have been hosting events for hundreds of years and know how to host a major.

It would be great, personally, to see world-class players in Ireland a few times a year. But I don't think the appetite is there for it given the logistics and bureaucracy that go into hosting an event these days. The European Tour have wisely made the Irish Open a Rolex Series event, I think. That's for their product abroad, it's one of the best attended events every year, and people like the Irish Open. But the European Tour is also dominated by the likes of Turkey and Dubai. Because they fork out the money. No matter how successful an Irish Open is, it will never compete with oil money.

Edited by Dave230, 12 November 2017 - 08:26 PM.


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#36 MattyO1984

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:05 AM

The problem with trying to get more tournaments into the UK and Europe in general is that so much of the sponsorship is coming from outwith the UK and Europe. Heck, even the Irish Open is the Dubai Duty Free Irish Open. With the link and exposure that they get from McIlroy, I am sure that DDF are happy enough with their deal but it's hard to maximise the tournament to your corporate needs if the tournament isn't in your own country and money talks. If a rich Sheikh wanted to put money up for a tournament and he wants the tournaments to be in his bag garden such as Trophee Hassan then that's what they will do.

View PostSantiago Golf, on 12 November 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

View PostCrushSticks, on 11 November 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

View PostDave230, on 11 November 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

View PostSantiago Golf, on 10 November 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

View PostCrushSticks, on 10 November 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

As someone who is an avid golf fan and watches all the major tours( mostly US pga, but I️ dabble in the others) I️ am familiar with most of the players and I️ just can’t get turned on by Euro your golf. I️ still watch because there are some amazing players, but I️ personally am unfamiliar with the courses, don’t see many “rivalries”, and don’t understand the location choices.

I️ mean let’s play more golf in Europe and utilize more of the great Irish and Scottish courses. That would get me watching more.
Many of the courses you are thinking of in Scottland and Ireland have no interest in hosting such events and probably not have any finacial gain

Yeah the courses that used to hold events outside the national Opens were the likes of The K Club, Gleneagles and Mount Juliet, because they had cash to burn. Many of the links courses would have no interest in the effort that goes into hosting a European Tour event.

Alright. But do you disagree with the theory that going to these types of courses would help the tour? Couldn’t the tour work with the courses and get better sponsors to help host events at more well known European courses.

I️ am obviously just spitballing, but one tournament, Dunhill Links, played across three courses just doesn’t seem like enough links style golf for me.
European Tour Links stops
Open Championship
Dunhill Links
Scottish Open
Irish Open
French Open
British Masters
Golf Sixes

So thats 7 events on Links and probably more if you consider some other courses as hybrid links

Except the French Open, British Masters and Golf Sixes were not played on Links courses!
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#37 Paul065

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 12:48 PM

I watch a s*** load of golf, have done since the mid 90's when my family first got Sky tv and I always trend toward the the PGA Tour because of the courses. I'll watch Abu Dhabi, Dubai in February then won't watch another Euro Tour event until the BMW at Wentworth and then not again until the Irish, Scottish, Open 3 week spell. I can't wait until January, just look at this list of courses before we get to Augusta;

Torrey Pines
TPC Scottsdale
Pebble
Riviera
PGA National
Innisbrook
Bay Hill

And then after Augusta up until the US Open;

Harbour Town
Quail Hollow
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Colonial
Murfield Village

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#38 Mick Douglas

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 10:46 PM

http://www.europeant...sid=336844.html



These hero events are a great watch, not sure what time it's live in the US but can watch live on Twitter.

For me the euro tour have it all over the PGA for innovative ideas and players with personailites willing to participate.

Does anyone remember little Billy and his interviews with Rory and others? Not sighted for a while I wonder why.

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#39 dannyuk32

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 02:55 PM

The Race To Dubai is a complete FLOP.
The courses are mediocre, the playing fields are sporadic for these last events, and the TV coverage (SKY in my case) doesn't embrace what the RTD is all about.
The courses , field and tV coverage for the FED EX cup is far superior.
Now, I know you are going to ask me about the TV covergae.
I was watching Sunday and there were no projected RTD rankings whatsoever. I was trying to make out if Ian Poulter in his current position (at the time) was going to make the top 60 for the final.
Nothing, whatsoever.
And that's for every player!? I mean WTF?
If I was Pelley I'd be thinking .... hmm
You can tell the Sky commentary team do not embrace the Fed Ex \ RTD system, it's obvious.
'Pelley, if SKY can't do it properly give it to BT!
The European tour is going the wrong way for me. These stupid gimmicky things \ hero challenge 'things' that keep popping up.
'The Race to Dubai' .. who made that name up? It's hardly inspring, is it?
Doomed to fail.
Yikes. :(

Edited by dannyuk32, 14 November 2017 - 03:00 PM.


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#40 moonshine

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 03:03 PM

Ohhhhhh....OP meant Rolex Series

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#41 dannyuk32

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 03:04 PM

View PostMick Douglas, on 13 November 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

http://www.europeant...sid=336844.html



These hero events are a great watch, not sure what time it's live in the US but can watch live on Twitter.

For me the euro tour have it all over the PGA for innovative ideas and players with personailites willing to participate.

They are complete cliches, trying too hard. :(

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#42 iteachgolf

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 04:21 PM

View Postdannyuk32, on 14 November 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

The Race To Dubai is a complete FLOP.
The courses are mediocre, the playing fields are sporadic for these last events, and the TV coverage (SKY in my case) doesn't embrace what the RTD is all about.
The courses , field and tV coverage for the FED EX cup is far superior.
Now, I know you are going to ask me about the TV covergae.
I was watching Sunday and there were no projected RTD rankings whatsoever. I was trying to make out if Ian Poulter in his current position (at the time) was going to make the top 60 for the final.
Nothing, whatsoever.
And that's for every player!? I mean WTF?
If I was Pelley I'd be thinking .... hmm
You can tell the Sky commentary team do not embrace the Fed Ex \ RTD system, it's obvious.
'Pelley, if SKY can't do it properly give it to BT!
The European tour is going the wrong way for me. These stupid gimmicky things \ hero challenge 'things' that keep popping up.
'The Race to Dubai' .. who made that name up? It's hardly inspring, is it?
Doomed to fail.
Yikes. :(

Race to Dubai is season long and not one or a few events.  Think you mean Rolex series, which have produced stronger fields than the same events in years past.  They showed protected rankings more than once in the coverage and itís on their website.  I know because one of my players was on the bubble and I saw the projected numbers scrolled through.

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#43 Darth Putter

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 06:30 PM

Sergio isn't exactly selling this to the best of his ability.

http://golfweek.com/...to-dubai-title/
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#44 NaBUru38

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:53 AM

The European Tour lacks prestige.

I would have a minimum US$ 2.0 million purse, all the other tournaments would be moved to the Challenge Tour.

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#45 Lancj1

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 12:48 PM

Need a world tour. European tour only really "big" when its on the British mainland. Then, its the best there is. Sorry if that offends.

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#46 Halebopp

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:50 AM

View PostNaBUru38, on 15 November 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

The European Tour lacks prestige.

I would have a minimum US$ 2.0 million purse, all the other tournaments would be moved to the Challenge Tour.

Then they wouldn't be able to raise the sponsorship money for the events demoted to the Challenge Tour.

The LET is a prime example of how catering for the top players and demands for bigger purses, or keeping at a certain level, has lead to plenty of events being cancelled. No events in two and a half months from mid April through early July and only 5 events in Europe all season. Do you cater for the big names or try to offer more competitions and experience for the players while making the brand and the players who show up "every week" more well-known, which in turn should help with sponsorships for for the players and the tournaments, attract more fans etc.?
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#47 bladehunter

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:43 AM

View PostHalebopp, on 20 November 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

View PostNaBUru38, on 15 November 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

The European Tour lacks prestige.

I would have a minimum US$ 2.0 million purse, all the other tournaments would be moved to the Challenge Tour.

Then they wouldn't be able to raise the sponsorship money for the events demoted to the Challenge Tour.

The LET is a prime example of how catering for the top players and demands for bigger purses, or keeping at a certain level, has lead to plenty of events being cancelled. No events in two and a half months from mid April through early July and only 5 events in Europe all season. Do you cater for the big names or try to offer more competitions and experience for the players while making the brand and the players who show up "every week" more well-known, which in turn should help with sponsorships for for the players and the tournaments, attract more fans etc.?

Absolutely.  You have to realize who you are and be the best " that "you can be.    All this golf sixes nonsense will kill the ET. Faster than anything.  The brand is being diluted.
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#48 iteachgolf

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:58 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 20 November 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

View PostHalebopp, on 20 November 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

View PostNaBUru38, on 15 November 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

The European Tour lacks prestige.

I would have a minimum US$ 2.0 million purse, all the other tournaments would be moved to the Challenge Tour.

Then they wouldn't be able to raise the sponsorship money for the events demoted to the Challenge Tour.

The LET is a prime example of how catering for the top players and demands for bigger purses, or keeping at a certain level, has lead to plenty of events being cancelled. No events in two and a half months from mid April through early July and only 5 events in Europe all season. Do you cater for the big names or try to offer more competitions and experience for the players while making the brand and the players who show up "every week" more well-known, which in turn should help with sponsorships for for the players and the tournaments, attract more fans etc.?

Absolutely.  You have to realize who you are and be the best " that "you can be.    All this golf sixes nonsense will kill the ET. Faster than anything.  The brand is being diluted.

So one team event in a weak part of the schedule with only 32 players at the same time of the year as two big PGA Tour events will kill the ET?  

I donít see how one event when all the top players will be in the US anyways is going to affect anything.

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#49 bladehunter

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 01:27 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 20 November 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 20 November 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

View PostHalebopp, on 20 November 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

View PostNaBUru38, on 15 November 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

The European Tour lacks prestige.

I would have a minimum US$ 2.0 million purse, all the other tournaments would be moved to the Challenge Tour.

Then they wouldn't be able to raise the sponsorship money for the events demoted to the Challenge Tour.

The LET is a prime example of how catering for the top players and demands for bigger purses, or keeping at a certain level, has lead to plenty of events being cancelled. No events in two and a half months from mid April through early July and only 5 events in Europe all season. Do you cater for the big names or try to offer more competitions and experience for the players while making the brand and the players who show up "every week" more well-known, which in turn should help with sponsorships for for the players and the tournaments, attract more fans etc.?

Absolutely.  You have to realize who you are and be the best " that "you can be.    All this golf sixes nonsense will kill the ET. Faster than anything.  The brand is being diluted.

So one team event in a weak part of the schedule with only 32 players at the same time of the year as two big PGA Tour events will kill the ET?  

I donít see how one event when all the top players will be in the US anyways is going to affect anything.

Wasn't a literal  comment.  One event can't have that much impact either way.    But the NASCARization of the sport has to start somewhere.  And that's what I see the golf sixes as.   The start to a slippery slope.
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#50 NaBUru38

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 07:19 AM

View PostNaBUru38, on 15 November 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

The European Tour lacks prestige.

I would have a minimum US$ 2.0 million purse, all the other tournaments would be moved to the Challenge Tour.

View Postbladehunter, on 20 November 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

You have to realize who you are and be the best " that "you can be.  

The brand is being diluted.

I think that the European Tour brand is being diluted because of the US$ 1 million tournaments.

Edited by NaBUru38, 21 November 2017 - 07:19 AM.


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#51 new2g0lf

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 10:58 PM

The travel time, time change and hassles associated are the killer for those living in the US, which is why some tournaments had to resort to appearance fees to attract the top names.   Why deal with all the hassles and getting through customs in other countries when you can play local tournaments that pay more money.
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#52 avrag

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 05:54 AM

View PostShort Pete, on 10 November 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

The European Tour tried to create another seven top notch highlight tournaments in a season that already goes year-round and features an array of other top notch events. As an international player you have 4 Majors, the Players Championship, 5 WCG tournaments. As a US player you have an additional three weeks of FedEx cup. Thee big boys have the Ryder Cup, and maybe a few events they have to play because of sponsor's demand.

If a European player who is exempt for all these events plays well there he earns enough points for the "Dubai Race around the world" that he can skip events like the Turkish, the Nedbank or even the Italian. They all will play one or two events leading up to the British, and at the start of the season they prefer to play 4 or 5 events in the US instead of hopping around the globe to play 4 events on 5 continents for mediocre purses.

If I remember correctly the Nedbank originally was the Sun City tournament, an Invitational for the Big Boys in the silly season, where no ranking points were at stake, just a fun event. They should have kept it that way. Now the second tier Euro Tour players are happy to go there, play an event with no cut and are guaranteed a chunk of money and some ranking points if they don't play all that bad. Even the Turkish last week only got coverage because the Olympic and Major champion Justin Rose won it. If we had a playoff between Haydn Porteous and Dylan Frittelli no one would have noticed. This week at the Nedbank the field is even weaker.

The regular Tour stops on the Euro Tour tend to degenerate to second tier evenets, with not so great fields and not so great purses because Mr. Pelley builds his strategy around the Rolex events. I believe that 5 years down the road the Euro Tour will have serious problems putting a halfway decent calendar together, because some of the smaller events on european soil are simply not willing to come up with the money the Tour wants from them. The difference in prize money between the Rolex tournaments and the other events is way too big, and sponsors in Europe simply won't put up 7 figure sponsor money for the perspective of having Nacho Elvira, Florian Fritsch, Dylan Frittelli (I love that name, nothing against the guy) and Matteo Manassero as the marquee players. If Commish Pelley finds someone in Azerbaidjian or the Ukraine (where noone is interested in golf) who throws big money at him for a tournament he will go there just for the sake of the money, the consequence will be that he loses presence on the European mainland and the British Isles (where golf is played by millions of people). If that's the way to grow golf and the Tour in Europe i doubt it's a good one.

Couldn't agree more.

Edited by avrag, 24 November 2017 - 05:54 AM.

I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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