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Dialing Back the Ball


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#61 new2g0lf

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 03:59 PM

View Postcoachemup, on 08 November 2017 - 03:53 PM, said:

North Butte,

To be 100% honest with you, I could care less what Dustin Johnson hits off the tee or how much longer he is than I am.  I am not playing Dustin Johnson when I go to the golf course.  I am playing the golf course. And I would much prefer to pay $30 a round than $100 due to the course having to spend $3 million on improvements every year to keep up with technology.

I am a baseball guy by trade and I am glad they limited MLB by making the players use wooden bats and by making all pitchers throw the same ball.  Some people keep saying it would be "impossible" to do that in golf.  I just don't believe that is the case.

It's impossible because golfers are independent contractors, not employees like baseball players.  The PGA Tour doesn't dictate what balls, gloves, shoes, clothes or clubs a PGA Tour pro wears as long as they do not violate their rules and the USGA / R&A rules.


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#62 coachemup

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:00 PM

I am not a computer guy so pardon me for not being able to quote things, but I never said to take the game back to wooden drivers and balata balls.  I was leaning toward gearing all equipment going forward to be the same for all the players.  If DJ still outdrives me by 100 yards and outscores me 15 shots a round, then he is defintely the better player.  I have no issues with that at all.
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#63 North Butte

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:04 PM

Well I don't much care what some TV entertainer uses for equipment but I personally would not be at all in favor, ever, of giving up the performance of the balls and implements I use now. Just not interested. And I'm sure I am speaking for literally every single golfer I play regularly with as well as the vast preponderance of golfers everywhere.

There's just nothing in it for us. And by "us" I mean the millions of golfers who tee it up everyday at their local golf courses and enjoy using the current equipment just fine. I just don't ever meet anyone who thinks he would enjoy the game more if only he didn't hit it so far.
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#64 new2g0lf

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:09 PM

View Postcoachemup, on 08 November 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

I am not a computer guy so pardon me for not being able to quote things, but I never said to take the game back to wooden drivers and balata balls.  I was leaning toward gearing all equipment going forward to be the same for all the players.  If DJ still outdrives me by 100 yards and outscores me 15 shots a round, then he is defintely the better player.  I have no issues with that at all.

Why roll back the ball then, I keep hearing we need to roll back the ball because all these courses that have to be lengthened, yet not one of the local courses here on Long Island has been lengthened since 1997 (Bethpage Black).

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#65 coachemup

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:15 PM

Golf courses (especially private ones) in our area are closing at rapid rates.  #1 being is that it just costs alot of money to keep them running. And we all can agree that is one reason why green fee's have gone up so much over the years.  Add to that, there are no new courses being built in our area.  I know golf may be thriving in some areas, but it is dying here.

Edited by coachemup, 08 November 2017 - 04:22 PM.

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#66 coachemup

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:22 PM

North,

This is my final post in this thread (told you I should have just stayed out of it. lol), but this is something I truly believe in no matter what the sport is:

If a governing body told me I had to play with XXX clubs and XXX balls in order to play the sport, If I truly loved the sport I would play it with that equipment.  If I got my feelings hurt and decided to never play it again because I was told I couldn't use what I wanted to use, I was never truly in love with the sport.

Prayers for alot of sunshine and warm temperatures all over the globe this winter so we can all play and enjoy the game we truly love

Peace
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#67 North Butte

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:22 PM

All the courses around here are struggling too. But as I said, they haven't gotten any longer (with a few exceptions) since well before Titanium and Urethane came along. There's a path dependency issue. You seem to be advocating a world in which the normal length of a golf course were, say, a thousand yards shorter than it historically has been. Well yes, if a 200-acre golf course were only 150 acres then it could probably survive a little longer in a declining industry.

But you can't get from a 7,000-yard course on 200 acres to a 6,000-yard one on 150 acres once it's been in operation for half a century. It isn't like you can shorten each hole by 50 yards and sell the 18 leftover parcels of land. It's nothing to do with the ball and even some draconian new Rule slashing 20-30% off the flight of the ball will not help the plight of a struggling golf course one iota.

P.S. Cheers to you as well "coach"!

Edited by North Butte, 08 November 2017 - 04:23 PM.

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#68 deetsal

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:28 PM

View Postcaniac6, on 06 November 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

Why don't Tiger and Jack say anything about big titanium drivers with graphite shafts? My old Toney Penna with a steel shaft was much harder to hit. Why not have standard lofts on irons equal to lofts from the 70s or 80s? I think Byron Nelson said the biggest change was the lob wedge. He said it allowed players to attack pins that they could not. Why not max wedge lofts at 56? There are a lot of things that can be done to make the game harder, and dial back distance. Why do they just say dial back the ball?
who is going to measure everyone's wedge???  Talk about slowing down.  Sure on tour you could but how about that Wednesday league or the club championship?  If I want to carry a wedge with 80 degrees of loft fine, I'll be giving up a club or two somewhere in the bag.  Standardized lofts, not as long as anyone has a vise in their garage.  

I have gone the opposite direction and have all my irons 3 degrees weak.  Cut my swing down, moved the ball back in my stance and play my own game.  Interestingly I have only lost about 2-4 yards and become more consistent.  Would I have to add loft to my clubs?  Food for thought.

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#69 deetsal

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:34 PM

Golf courses don't have to be made longer,  make narrow fairways lined with trees, rocks, sand or waste areas.  Not long rough, that slows play down. Longer softer fairways, faster greens, and creative approach shots.  In my 45 years playing golf my high scores did not come from long open courses but short tight courses.  Even now and I only average around 255 off the tee.

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#70 new2g0lf

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:36 PM

Is anyone going to really care if the pro's hit driver wedge or driver 9i into a hole?  Is that going to make golf more exciting for those who claim they don't watch now because of how far they hit the ball?


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#71 Uhit

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:42 PM

View Postcoachemup, on 08 November 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:

Golf courses (especially private ones) in our area are closing at rapid rates.  #1 being is that it just costs alot of money to keep them running. And we all can agree that is one reason why green fee's have gone up so much over the years.  Add to that, there are no new courses being built in our area.  I know golf may be thriving in some areas, but it is dying here.

They once made a risky decision to invest money in golf courses, for making money...
...this has more to do with investment decisions, than with the game golf.

B.t.w.:

If they would let the grass grow longer, they would need less water, due to less evaporation losses, and would have to mow less often,
what would save fuel and manpower...

...but you know, everyone wants to have fast fairways, that the short hitters have more fun on their courses, because of the bigger roll out they get...

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#72 soregongolfer

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 05:38 PM

View Postcoachemup, on 08 November 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:

Golf courses (especially private ones) in our area are closing at rapid rates.  #1 being is that it just costs alot of money to keep them running. And we all can agree that is one reason why green fee's have gone up so much over the years.  Add to that, there are no new courses being built in our area.  I know golf may be thriving in some areas, but it is dying here.

Here too.  One of our courses is only open three days a week.  The local country club is $7 million in debt and have half the members they need to break even.

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#73 hybrid25

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 05:43 PM

View Postcristphoto, on 07 November 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

View Postcaniac6, on 06 November 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

Why don't Tiger and Jack say anything about big titanium drivers with graphite shafts? My old Toney Penna with a steel shaft was much harder to hit. Why not have standard lofts on irons equal to lofts from the 70s or 80s? I think Byron Nelson said the biggest change was the lob wedge. He said it allowed players to attack pins that they could not. Why not max wedge lofts at 56? There are a lot of things that can be done to make the game harder, and dial back distance. Why do they just say dial back the ball?

Bingo.  Reduce the size of the driver on tour to maybe 350cc, shorten the shaft an inch or so and let the pros work a bit more to find the sweet spot. Also no need to make new courses 7500 yards or more. Simply put more doglegs starting at 250-275 yards and let the pros try to work the ball more if they want to bang driver. This would have zero effect on the amateur golfers.
I guess I have a question, how do you put dog legs into an existing course? I would think that would take a long time to culture.

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#74 North Butte

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 05:57 PM

View Posthybrid25, on 08 November 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

View Postcristphoto, on 07 November 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

View Postcaniac6, on 06 November 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

Why don't Tiger and Jack say anything about big titanium drivers with graphite shafts? My old Toney Penna with a steel shaft was much harder to hit. Why not have standard lofts on irons equal to lofts from the 70s or 80s? I think Byron Nelson said the biggest change was the lob wedge. He said it allowed players to attack pins that they could not. Why not max wedge lofts at 56? There are a lot of things that can be done to make the game harder, and dial back distance. Why do they just say dial back the ball?

Bingo.  Reduce the size of the driver on tour to maybe 350cc, shorten the shaft an inch or so and let the pros work a bit more to find the sweet spot. Also no need to make new courses 7500 yards or more. Simply put more doglegs starting at 250-275 yards and let the pros try to work the ball more if they want to bang driver. This would have zero effect on the amateur golfers.
I guess I have a question, how do you put dog legs into an existing course? I would think that would take a long time to culture.

Yes that's a classic case of imagining how much better things might be if everything in the past had been done differently. Nothing at all to do with getting from the here and now to a somewhat better situation in the real world. Hindsight is marvelous innit?
Engaged in the eternal search for the elusive Swedish meatball cores...

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#75 cane700

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 06:54 PM

Every PGA tour event will have a few guys shooting low and whole bunch shooting par or worse.


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#76 jslane57

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 09:52 PM

View Postcane700, on 08 November 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

Every PGA tour event will have a few guys shooting low and whole bunch shooting par or worse.
Why? Are these guys not good?
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts" -Einstein

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#77 Uhit

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 11:17 PM

View Postjslane57, on 08 November 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:

View Postcane700, on 08 November 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

Every PGA tour event will have a few guys shooting low and whole bunch shooting par or worse.
Why? Are these guys not good?
These guys are not covered by TV that much (like the leading groups), therefore many seem not to realize, that they exist - despite using modern balls, that some claim, that they would go too far...

...some even miss the cut with modern balls - very surprising, how that is possible...

...as long as less than the half of the professionals is shooting under par, the course setup, equipment, and weather should be OK - isn´t it?

But what if considerably less than the half shoot under par?

Where are the people who cry for hotter clubs, longer going balls, and shorter courses, to make it more easy to play par?

Par should be the number of strokes, the average professional should need, to complete a round on a course isn´t it?

-

Now, are the majority of tournaments played with a average score under par, or over par? :read:

If the average score is over par, then the professionals need more help, to shoot par, isn´t it? NOT less!

Simple as that!

Edited by Uhit, 08 November 2017 - 11:23 PM.


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#78 grm24

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 11:48 PM

View Postcristphoto, on 07 November 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Reduce the size of the driver on tour to maybe 350cc, shorten the shaft an inch or so and let the pros work a bit more to find the sweet spot.
Really? Back in the dark ages of September 1996 some middling wet behind the ears PGA Tour rookie hit his first professional tee shot with a smaller headed (well under 350cc) steel shafted driver with a wound golf ball 336 yards. Same player averaged over 323 yards off the tee in his first Masters as a professional using the same gear. I think he squeaked out a respectable finish. :/  

http://golfweek.com/...-jumbo-elliott/

Woods’ first swing as a professional produced a roaring drive that officially was marked as a 336-yarder.

http://www.golf.com/.../strokes-genius

He stood out because of the flabbergasting length of his drives -- 323 yards on average, 25 yards longer than the next player on the chart.

Said player did this using equipment light years behind the gear being used today. The longest players on tour today would still easily blow it 300, 310, 320+ with a 350 cc driver at a shorter length. See Justin Thomas hitting his 3 wood at Erin Hills. Around a 150cc club that's shorter in length than what you propose and still bashing it over 300+ yards easily. You can't regulate club head speed.

Edited by grm24, 08 November 2017 - 11:49 PM.


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#79 jslane57

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 11:51 PM

View PostUhit, on 08 November 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

View Postjslane57, on 08 November 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:

View Postcane700, on 08 November 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

Every PGA tour event will have a few guys shooting low and whole bunch shooting par or worse.
Why? Are these guys not good?
These guys are not covered by TV that much (like the leading groups), therefore many seem not to realize, that they exist - despite using modern balls, that some claim, that they would go too far...

...some even miss the cut with modern balls - very surprising, how that is possible...

...as long as less than the half of the professionals is shooting under par, the course setup, equipment, and weather should be OK - isn´t it?

But what if considerably less than the half shoot under par?

Where are the people who cry for hotter clubs, longer going balls, and shorter courses, to make it more easy to play par?

Par should be the number of strokes, the average professional should need, to complete a round on a course isn´t it?

-

Now, are the majority of tournaments played with a average score under par, or over par? :read:

If the average score is over par, then the professionals need more help, to shoot par, isn´t it? NOT less!

Simple as that!
It's not like they'd slow down the cars but leave the track alone. The course would not need to be tricked out as much, rather they could be played as intended. The help the pros need is not the distance, they've got that in spades, shorten the ball and they still have distance in spades. Scores probably would be closer together rather than farther apart as there would be multiple ways to score when playing courses as the designers intended. It may be harder to go super low (with a shorter/higher spin ball), but it may be easier to stay in the ballpark if the course is a little more forgiving. These guys are good, and they'd still be good...
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts" -Einstein

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#80 grm24

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 11:52 PM

View PostNRJyzr, on 07 November 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 07 November 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

View PostNRJyzr, on 07 November 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

I see this entire argument as much ado about nothing.  

The average distance of the entire Tour from 2004 thru 2017 certainly doesn't show any alarming trends
Year   Avg
2004  287.3
2005  288.9
2006  289.3
2007  289.1
2008  287.7
2009  288.1
2010  287.5
2011  291.1
2012  290.1
2013  288.0
2014  289.8
2015  290.2
2016  291.1
2017  293.0


Why so much fuss over a roll back then. ?   Is it placebo that is being clung to ?

On the part of some fans, I would guess it's the hero worship, pedestal, thing.  On the part of Jack and now Tiger, maybe it's hard to believe the new crop of players really are swinging that much harder?

Jack famously drove the ball thru the Old Course's 18th hole with persimmon and wound ball.  At age 50, he was hitting a wound ball 330-350 yds with a J's Professional Weapon.  Tiger was clocked swinging at 130mph with driver at one of those Monday night Sherwood events; if he'd chosen to optimize things, he could have been then hitting it past what the top guys do today.

Selective memory, perhaps?

That doesn't even account for all the classic reports of DL3 hitting Tour Balatas over the driving range nets at ANGC with his persimmon driver (nets were at 275).
As always Ed you are a welcome voice of reason.


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#81 grm24

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 11:58 PM

View Postplaya, on 07 November 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

View PostNJpatbee, on 07 November 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

The USGA has reasonable limits on golf equipment and there are plenty of courses that can handle a PGA Tournament.  The equipment today is longer than 30 years ago but lets remember that Jack hit a 341 yard drive in 1963 at the PGA Championship Long Drive Contest using a persimmon driver and a wound ball.  I say leave the limits where they are and for many courses have holes where a 340 yard drive better be right on the money - allow some deeper rough, more sand at the 300+ range, waste areas, and do not cut the fairways down so they roll like fast greens.   These are not mega-million dollar enhancements to courses and if you want to host the PGA at 6800 yards from the tips you can make it challenging.  It might mean some less than driver shots from the tee for the big hitters for some holes, and it might lengthen the career of some golfers (e.g. Tiger, Rory) who swing out of their shoes and punish their bodies.  Add some strategy instead of "bomb and gouge" on every hole.

The PGA Tour should get on board with not conditioning courses for their tournaments so DJ can carry and roll 370+ yards.   Keep the current limits and make the courses play more reasonable and there should be no problem for the pros obsoleting many courses.  And for the other 20 million golfers in the US we will continue to enjoy our average 215 yard drives (ummmm....275, I forgot I was posting on GolfWrx) from the proper tees.
Jack's 341 yard poke is legendary, but was it a real 341 yards? By that I mean was the fairway rock hard, was there a tail wind, was the fairway sloped downhill etc. How far did the runner up hit? I think some of the increases we see on tv are due to PGA courses with fairways running faster on the stimp than most clubs greens.
Distance isn't just down to the ball .
Check out the legends of George Bayer and Mike Austin for hitting long drives. I'm sure Jacks 341 yards was "real". Same as his uphill 237 yard 1 iron @ Baltusol in 1967 using wildly inconsistent balata golf balls.

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#82 Hubijerk

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 12:36 AM

I know personally I have seen my iron distances increase with some of the new balls, but that's simply because of less spin.  Driver distance is only part of the story.  But this is also why I've had to add another wedge.  For years I only gamed a pw, sw, and lw.  Now hitting my pw 140+ in the summer I need a 50, 54 or 56, and a 58 or 60.  There is always a trade off.  Less spin will = longer iron shots but more difficulty holding greens.  More height will compensate but the longer the ball is in the air the more time it has to get offline...  I am still more accurate when I keep the ball lower and with more spin than I am when I hit it high with less.

With the newer balls that spin less, you will be more likely to get substantial fliers out of the rough.  Example;  I hit a 190-200 yard uphill 8 iron the other day into a 2 o'clock wind in cool temps with the TP5x.. Now it may have only flown 180ish to the back of the green because of the slope of the hill falling away, but I was expecting 155-160 with a hard swing but it came out angry and just blasted through the wind and ended up over the green in the rough on a downslope short siding me.   I would never consider hitting 9 there, and I could not have predicted my 8 going that far.  I probably lose a stroke there on a hole that should avg. under par for the field during a tourney.

During this round I used the TP5x which is the epitome of the new ball design (high flying low spinning) and the Snell MTB which I consider to be a more traditional design (lower flighting more spin than the TP5x, comparable to the Pro V1)  And while the TP5x was more fun, probably a bit longer and felt better, I was way more consistent and I scored way better with the Snell as I found myself pin high or below the hole more often.

There's always a trade off.
You can't sneak the cheese by a rat

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#83 Uhit

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 05:08 AM

View Postjslane57, on 08 November 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

View PostUhit, on 08 November 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

View Postjslane57, on 08 November 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:

View Postcane700, on 08 November 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

Every PGA tour event will have a few guys shooting low and whole bunch shooting par or worse.
Why? Are these guys not good?
These guys are not covered by TV that much (like the leading groups), therefore many seem not to realize, that they exist - despite using modern balls, that some claim, that they would go too far...

...some even miss the cut with modern balls - very surprising, how that is possible...

...as long as less than the half of the professionals is shooting under par, the course setup, equipment, and weather should be OK - isn´t it?

But what if considerably less than the half shoot under par?

Where are the people who cry for hotter clubs, longer going balls, and shorter courses, to make it more easy to play par?

Par should be the number of strokes, the average professional should need, to complete a round on a course isn´t it?

-

Now, are the majority of tournaments played with a average score under par, or over par? :read:

If the average score is over par, then the professionals need more help, to shoot par, isn´t it? NOT less!

Simple as that!
It's not like they'd slow down the cars but leave the track alone. The course would not need to be tricked out as much, rather they could be played as intended. The help the pros need is not the distance, they've got that in spades, shorten the ball and they still have distance in spades. Scores probably would be closer together rather than farther apart as there would be multiple ways to score when playing courses as the designers intended. It may be harder to go super low (with a shorter/higher spin ball), but it may be easier to stay in the ballpark if the course is a little more forgiving. These guys are good, and they'd still be good...

Well, if you want the field closer together, then you can apply the handicap system from the amateurs also for the professionals...


B.t.w.:

There is nothing more exciting in golf, than a hole, that is NOT played as intended! :golfer:


Most of our senior ladies play the course as intended:

A very well visible drive down the middle of the fairway, a lay up in front of every hazard, a short pitch / chip into the green, followed by a average putt - first class entertainment, that encourages you to follow suit - isn´t it? :lazy2:

Edited by Uhit, 09 November 2017 - 05:18 AM.


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#84 bladehunter

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 08:07 AM

View PostLeftofleft, on 08 November 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

So sick of course designers complaining about the ball.

Also, wouldn't rolling the ball back favor power players even more?

Yes it will.  And shouldn't it.  Why do we favor the castration  of the strong ? Jealousy ?
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#85 gvogel

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 08:12 AM

View Postjslane57, on 06 November 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

View Postode1, on 06 November 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

I can't wait for 6+ hour rds after the ball is dialed back.  NO
This is what i don't understand. A shorter ball gets lost less often. A shorter ball affords a shorter course. Shorten the course and stop losing golf balls, sounds like the exact thing needed to speed up golf...

Agree.

I grew up playing golf in the later 70's and 80's.  The ball didn't go that far, but it was a great game and we enjoyed it.  If the ball is rolled back, it will all be relative, and it will still be a great game.  We can play shorter tees and still enjoy the challenge, and the competition.  Courses with narrow fairways and smaller greens will be more appropriate for a shorter ball.  That will work just fine.

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#86 gvogel

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 08:30 AM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 07 November 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 07 November 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

View Postroundersmitty, on 07 November 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

The rule of 1.50 max smash factor limits things enough.

No, what we need is a rule that say no ball will go farther than Jack Nicklaus was hitting a balata in 1970, no matter how much clubhead speed is produced.

Of course once we have that rule I'm sure these whining old men will move on to complaining that the modern ball isn't lumpy and doesn't have to be thrown away after a few holes. Whatever it takes to make that Jack Nicklaus was non pareil among all golfer, forever and ever amen. Anyone telling you otherwise is just being fooled by the magical ProV1 that makes them look good when they ain't.

Seems that's what it comes down to, old men afraid their records will be broken.  Did Hogan and those in his time whine when hickory shafts were replaced by steel like Jack is whining these days?

Mike Souchak shot 27 under par in the 1955 Texas Open.  Records are highly dependent upon course length and set up.  A ball roll back won't have any effect on record breaking, good or bad, if the courses are set up to reflect the reality of a shorter ball.

By the way, Hogan and his generation quickly changed to steel shafts because of the uniformity and consistency of shaft to shaft.

None of the ball roll back folks are advocating a return of all steel shafts.  Graphite is here to stay, and affords higher swing speeds.  But, in addition to a shorter ball, I would also advocate a COR (or characteristic time) reduced to .70, and clubhead size reduced to 230 cc - but only for elite players (same players who need to adhere to the new groove rule).
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#87 gvogel

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 08:38 AM

View PostLeftofleft, on 08 November 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

So sick of course designers complaining about the ball.

Also, wouldn't rolling the ball back favor power players even more?

Maybe, maybe not.  It might favor the guys who can hit long irons.  It also might favor the guys with great short games.  I doubt that things would change much, except that the best ball strikers would win more often, and the guys who rely on great putting might win less.  But who knows?
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#88 North Butte

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 08:43 AM

View Postgvogel, on 09 November 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

View Postjslane57, on 06 November 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

View Postode1, on 06 November 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

I can't wait for 6+ hour rds after the ball is dialed back.  NO
This is what i don't understand. A shorter ball gets lost less often. A shorter ball affords a shorter course. Shorten the course and stop losing golf balls, sounds like the exact thing needed to speed up golf...

Agree.

I grew up playing golf in the later 70's and 80's.  The ball didn't go that far, but it was a great game and we enjoyed it.  If the ball is rolled back, it will all be relative, and it will still be a great game.  We can play shorter tees and still enjoy the challenge, and the competition.  Courses with narrow fairways and smaller greens will be more appropriate for a shorter ball.  That will work just fine.

And people who took up the game in the 00's and 10's think it is great fun and are happy to enjoy the current ball.

Same can be said of those who came to the game in the 1930's. Only your particular generatiion thinks its preferences are privileged over any other.

If someone had come along in 1987 and told you that you had to go back to using a gutta percha ball and wooden shafts, your lot would have screamed like stuck pigs.

Edited by North Butte, 09 November 2017 - 08:46 AM.

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#89 NRJyzr

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 09:34 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 09 November 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

View Postgvogel, on 09 November 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

View Postjslane57, on 06 November 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

View Postode1, on 06 November 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

I can't wait for 6+ hour rds after the ball is dialed back.  NO
This is what i don't understand. A shorter ball gets lost less often. A shorter ball affords a shorter course. Shorten the course and stop losing golf balls, sounds like the exact thing needed to speed up golf...

Agree.

I grew up playing golf in the later 70's and 80's.  The ball didn't go that far, but it was a great game and we enjoyed it.  If the ball is rolled back, it will all be relative, and it will still be a great game.  We can play shorter tees and still enjoy the challenge, and the competition.  Courses with narrow fairways and smaller greens will be more appropriate for a shorter ball.  That will work just fine.

And people who took up the game in the 00's and 10's think it is great fun and are happy to enjoy the current ball.

Same can be said of those who came to the game in the 1930's. Only your particular generatiion thinks its preferences are privileged over any other.

If someone had come along in 1987 and told you that you had to go back to using a gutta percha ball and wooden shafts, your lot would have screamed like stuck pigs.

Several years ago, a fellow online golf forumite posted alarmist stories from writers, certain the game would be destroyed with the crazy distances folks were seeing with newer golf balls.  

The kicker, these stories were from early 20th century, and it was the Haskell ball that had the purists buzzing.

I wonder how that turned out.  

Ironically, the PGA Tour is at least partially to blame.  If they hadn't reacted as they did, trying to "Tiger-proof" courses, the rest of the tour wouldn't have gone so nuts trying to find more distance to keep up, and perhaps the ancillary effects on the next generation would have been a bit less stark.
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#90 grm24

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:18 AM

View Postgvogel, on 09 November 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

I would also advocate a COR (or characteristic time) reduced to .70
That would be less the the COR of persimmon drivers which had a COR of around .78 - So on top of advocating a shorter ball you want a shorter driver than what was played in the past. Nobody wants to see professional golfers hitting it shorter than Jack, Arnie, Gary, etc.

http://www.economist.com/node/2785128

https://books.google...epage&q&f=false

Given the exotic aerospace materials available today, engineers reckon the maximum COR possible for a golf club could be as high as 0.88. The old persimmon wood had a COR of 0.78, but the latest titanium club heads are delivering values of 0.86 and experimental ones even higher.


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