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Dialing Back the Ball


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#1 Pomps

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 03:07 PM

More and more, led by Jack and Tiger has come out about this. What does every one think and how should they do it?

I personally think it should be dialed back for everyone. I understand the notion of not doing it for amateurs to make them enjoy the game more by making the game easier. Personally, I've never found the game more enjoyable because it was easier. It's more enjoyable when you beat things that are difficult. The bottom line is if my swing speed is 110 and I hit a current ball 275 but I hit a dialed back ball 250, it's not a blow to my ego. Just like hitting my 47* wedge 135 isn't a blow to my ego bc other guys hit their 43* wedge 145. I know the equipment companies need distance to "grow the game" i.e. sell more product. People keep getting fooled. It's a function of the equipment, not a person's skill, so I'm not sure why hitting these equipment boosted distance makes people feel better.

From an environmental perspective, and I'm the furthest thing from a tree-hugger, it makes sense. From a cost perspective to not have to keep spending money to lengthen, it make sense.

The key issue I see is competition. If someone is competitive amateur and plays in state am which can be a qualifier for a national am tournaments which can lead to qualifications in opens which professionals play, shouldn't that be with a dialed back ball? A fair amount of people at least try to qualify for state ams. But then, that same amateur plays in his weekend foursome against his buddies and he uses a dialed back ball and they don't, he's at a disadvantage. But then he's forced to use a very different ball as compared to his tournaments. No one wants to keep flip flopping their ball. What about college? A lot of those kids hit it as far as pros. Shouldn't they use a dialed back ball too?

I don't see the big deal with even the short hitting  20 handicap playing a shorter ball. They cap hotness of driver faces, why can't the ball be capped more? It's easier for a short hitter to move up to the shorter tees than for courses to keep having to make longer tees.

Again, there's no other motive than the equipment companies constantly having to up their game with distance either longer lighter drivers, lower lofted drivers or even the ball. Thoughts?


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#2 rsballer10

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 04:18 PM

View PostPomps, on 06 November 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

More and more, led by Jack and Tiger has come out about this. What does every one think and how should they do it?

I personally think it should be dialed back for everyone. I understand the notion of not doing it for amateurs to make them enjoy the game more by making the game easier. Personally, I've never found the game more enjoyable because it was easier. It's more enjoyable when you beat things that are difficult. The bottom line is if my swing speed is 110 and I hit a current ball 275 but I hit a dialed back ball 250, it's not a blow to my ego. Just like hitting my 47* wedge 135 isn't a blow to my ego bc other guys hit their 43* wedge 145. I know the equipment companies need distance to "grow the game" i.e. sell more product. People keep getting fooled. It's a function of the equipment, not a person's skill, so I'm not sure why hitting these equipment boosted distance makes people feel better.

From an environmental perspective, and I'm the furthest thing from a tree-hugger, it makes sense. From a cost perspective to not have to keep spending money to lengthen, it make sense.

The key issue I see is competition. If someone is competitive amateur and plays in state am which can be a qualifier for a national am tournaments which can lead to qualifications in opens which professionals play, shouldn't that be with a dialed back ball? A fair amount of people at least try to qualify for state ams. But then, that same amateur plays in his weekend foursome against his buddies and he uses a dialed back ball and they don't, he's at a disadvantage. But then he's forced to use a very different ball as compared to his tournaments. No one wants to keep flip flopping their ball. What about college? A lot of those kids hit it as far as pros. Shouldn't they use a dialed back ball too?

I don't see the big deal with even the short hitting  20 handicap playing a shorter ball. They cap hotness of driver faces, why can't the ball be capped more? It's easier for a short hitter to move up to the shorter tees than for courses to keep having to make longer tees.

Again, there's no other motive than the equipment companies constantly having to up their game with distance either longer lighter drivers, lower lofted drivers or even the ball. Thoughts?
I personally agree with this. Let the athletes get bigger and stronger, and that can be what increases distance. Not because the golf ball tech keeps improving.

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#3 chippa13

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 04:20 PM

Thank goodness for this thread. I don't think the others really nailed the discussion home.

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#4 klbcec

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 05:17 PM

The USGA and R&A always seem to choose paths that make golf less enjoyable.  If I play TPC Sawgrass or Erin Hills or Pebble Beach, I want to play those courses under as close to the same conditions as possible as the PGA Tour would play those courses.

Having a different ball from the pros would ruin that experience.

The ball needs to be dialed back, but dial it back for everyone.

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#5 Yrrdead

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 05:25 PM

Or you know cut the grass less.

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#6 GLF4EVR

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 05:36 PM

Thank you for this post!  This is exactly the way I feel about it.  The distance that the pro's are playing the current balls at has reached the point that it needs to be capped.  It makes most coursed now obsolete. They did it with the square groove, so time to do it with the ball.

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#7 Sean2

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 05:41 PM

According to Trackman, and others, the average drive for amateurs is about 215 yards. I suppose getting them under 200 makes a lot of sense, especially on 400+ yard par 4s.

Also note, that many Tour venues cut and roll the fairways so folks on TV can ooohhh and aahhh over those prodigious drives. I watched a rain soaked event a couple of years ago, and most of the drives were in the 275 yard range.
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#8 ode1

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 06:03 PM

I can't wait for 6+ hour rds after the ball is dialed back.  NO

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#9 cane700

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 06:29 PM

Rather than dialing back the ball,  slow down the fairways and speed up the greens

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#10 caniac6

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 06:48 PM

Why don't Tiger and Jack say anything about big titanium drivers with graphite shafts? My old Toney Penna with a steel shaft was much harder to hit. Why not have standard lofts on irons equal to lofts from the 70s or 80s? I think Byron Nelson said the biggest change was the lob wedge. He said it allowed players to attack pins that they could not. Why not max wedge lofts at 56? There are a lot of things that can be done to make the game harder, and dial back distance. Why do they just say dial back the ball?


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#11 new2g0lf

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 06:56 PM

The comments Jack and Tiger made are self serving from the perspective that they are course designers and architects and distance isn't as important to them.  

Show me a significant number of up and coming Tour player or amateur who thinks the ball goes too far.  I'd be shocked if more than 10% felt the ball needs to be rolled back.

I heard Jimmy Connors believes tennis should go back to the wood racket.

Edited by new2g0lf, 06 November 2017 - 06:56 PM.

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#12 lil'mike

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 07:16 PM

Whether it is the ball or clubs, maybe some of both.  I think they can change the course somewhat and make it tougher not longer like more dog legs, more tree's in target lines, more hazards a bit taller grass on fairways without making them firmer, taller rough, etc.

If they roll back the ball that is fine too as long as it is a 'tour" only ball which us guys don't have to play!  It's not like we can play their equipment so why play there ball!

I do think when they are winning tournaments at like 20 under or more than the course is too easy.  Now if only one player is at like 20 under and the rest is like 12 under than that is different as you could say that golfer is just hot and hitting them very well.  Even this past weekend LPGA tournament was won by someone at 19 under with others close behind so I guess there is no more tournaments being won at par or even 4-5 under anymore!

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#13 jslane57

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 07:30 PM

View Postode1, on 06 November 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

I can't wait for 6+ hour rds after the ball is dialed back.  NO
This is what i don't understand. A shorter ball gets lost less often. A shorter ball affords a shorter course. Shorten the course and stop losing golf balls, sounds like the exact thing needed to speed up golf...
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#14 ode1

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 10:51 PM

View Postjslane57, on 06 November 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

View Postode1, on 06 November 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

I can't wait for 6+ hour rds after the ball is dialed back.  NO
This is what i don't understand. A shorter ball gets lost less often. A shorter ball affords a shorter course. Shorten the course and stop losing golf balls, sounds like the exact thing needed to speed up golf...

I don't know if a dialed back ball will be lost less often or not.
...but I suspect it will have very little difference as it's not going to lead to an improvement on swing mechanics.

What do you think is going.to happen, groups magically moving up tee boxes after the dialed.back ball gets introduced?  There are too many people playing from too far back.  In essence dialing back the ball will only make pace of play worse for this reason.  Even if golfers move up, they are still playing from too far back.

I really like Jack and Tiger, but they need to STFU....this would kill an already struggling sport.  And there is nothing stating golfers.cant play a sucky, dialed back ball.  Have at it!

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#15 new2g0lf

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:11 PM

The best solution was posted by North Butte in the Tour Talk Forum, "Now Tiger says the ball goes too far.."; leave the rules alone and let the tournament directors at shorter courses impose a local rule that a rolled back ball must be used for that tournament.

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#16 playa

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 12:40 AM

View PostPomps, on 06 November 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

More and more, led by Jack and Tiger has come out about this. What does every one think and how should they do it?

I personally think it should be dialed back for everyone. I understand the notion of not doing it for amateurs to make them enjoy the game more by making the game easier. Personally, I've never found the game more enjoyable because it was easier. It's more enjoyable when you beat things that are difficult. The bottom line is if my swing speed is 110 and I hit a current ball 275 but I hit a dialed back ball 250, it's not a blow to my ego. Just like hitting my 47* wedge 135 isn't a blow to my ego bc other guys hit their 43* wedge 145. I know the equipment companies need distance to "grow the game" i.e. sell more product. People keep getting fooled. It's a function of the equipment, not a person's skill, so I'm not sure why hitting these equipment boosted distance makes people feel better.

From an environmental perspective, and I'm the furthest thing from a tree-hugger, it makes sense. From a cost perspective to not have to keep spending money to lengthen, it make sense.

The key issue I see is competition. If someone is competitive amateur and plays in state am which can be a qualifier for a national am tournaments which can lead to qualifications in opens which professionals play, shouldn't that be with a dialed back ball? A fair amount of people at least try to qualify for state ams. But then, that same amateur plays in his weekend foursome against his buddies and he uses a dialed back ball and they don't, he's at a disadvantage. But then he's forced to use a very different ball as compared to his tournaments. No one wants to keep flip flopping their ball. What about college? A lot of those kids hit it as far as pros. Shouldn't they use a dialed back ball too?

I don't see the big deal with even the short hitting  20 handicap playing a shorter ball. They cap hotness of driver faces, why can't the ball be capped more? It's easier for a short hitter to move up to the shorter tees than for courses to keep having to make longer tees.

Again, there's no other motive than the equipment companies constantly having to up their game with distance either longer lighter drivers, lower lofted drivers or even the ball. Thoughts?
I don't need the ball dialled back.

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#17 BY#99

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:10 AM

Until golf realizes that it would be ok to have 2 separate rules for tour/tournament play and amateurs they will have these issues. To me, watching player after player hit driver and wedge into par 4's is not exciting. Watching guys hitting 5/6 irons into par 5's in their second shot is not as fun. I would personally like to see the guys challenged more on approaches so whether it is the ball or something else. I am definately not for dialing back the ball for amateurs. As stated above, the average player is not hitting a driver much over 200 (the people on this site are not the average players).  So par 4's of even 350 could mean driver then mid iron. If they have to play dialed back balls they will be hitting driver and FW/hybrid into most or 4's. That would not be fun for the average player.

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#18 North Butte

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:13 AM

Hickory and gutta percha or nothing I say!

Any doofus can hit a balata ball using steel shafts.
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#19 bladehunter

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:20 AM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 06 November 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

The comments Jack and Tiger made are self serving from the perspective that they are course designers and architects and distance isn't as important to them.  

Show me a significant number of up and coming Tour player or amateur who thinks the ball goes too far.  I'd be shocked if more than 10% felt the ball needs to be rolled back.

I heard Jimmy Connors believes tennis should go back to the wood racket.

I hear there's a poll in tour talk that puts the numbers at 50/50.
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#20 bladehunter

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:24 AM

View Postode1, on 06 November 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

I can't wait for 6+ hour rds after the ball is dialed back.  NO


Was this common In the 1990s?   If not.  Why would it be now. ?

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#21 North Butte

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:28 AM

View Postode1, on 06 November 2017 - 10:51 PM, said:

And there is nothing stating golfers.cant play a sucky, dialed back ball.  Have at it!

Except nobody makes sucky dialed-back balls. They don't make them because nobody wants to buy them.

So you're missing the point. The only solution for the Big Bad USGA to force everyone to use sucky dialed-back balls. Then the craven manufacturers will make them. And then everyone will be happy...OK, not everyone but a few grumpy old Baby Boomers longing to force the whole world to stop and return to their glory days.
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#22 roundersmitty

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:29 AM

The rule of 1.50 max smash factor limits things enough.
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#23 North Butte

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:33 AM

View Postroundersmitty, on 07 November 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

The rule of 1.50 max smash factor limits things enough.

No, what we need is a rule that say no ball will go farther than Jack Nicklaus was hitting a balata in 1970, no matter how much clubhead speed is produced.

Of course once we have that rule I'm sure these whining old men will move on to complaining that the modern ball isn't lumpy and doesn't have to be thrown away after a few holes. Whatever it takes to make that Jack Nicklaus was non pareil among all golfer, forever and ever amen. Anyone telling you otherwise is just being fooled by the magical ProV1 that makes them look good when they ain't.
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#24 Uhit

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:47 AM

View PostBY#99, on 07 November 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

Until golf realizes that it would be ok to have 2 separate rules for tour/tournament play and amateurs they will have these issues. To me, watching player after player hit driver and wedge into par 4's is not exciting. Watching guys hitting 5/6 irons into par 5's in their second shot is not as fun. I would personally like to see the guys challenged more on approaches so whether it is the ball or something else. I am definately not for dialing back the ball for amateurs. As stated above, the average player is not hitting a driver much over 200 (the people on this site are not the average players).  So par 4's of even 350 could mean driver then mid iron. If they have to play dialed back balls they will be hitting driver and FW/hybrid into most or 4's. That would not be fun for the average player.

What you see on TV are mostly the best shots of the best players, and not every average shot, of every average tour player...
...beside, that the longer the drive, the more precise it has to be - which mostly results in difficult up and downs for Phil, and other short game gems.

I don´t want to see short fairway shots from every player, always hitting the green in regulation with a standard chip shot to the pin, and always a tap in putt from short distance.

Great bunker play, and long putts from more than 20 feet distance are thrilling, and are mostly the result of long and difficult shots into the green, due to a less than perfect, risky, long drive...
...even a average golfer can hit a green from over 150 yards distance from the fairway, but not out of the rough, or over trees.

Guess what, I play my lowest scores, when I don´t use my driver, despite I can hit it a long way.
I can always grab a shorter club, to hit it more precise and a shorter distance, to stay on the fairway, but I can´t grab a longer club to hit it farther AND precise, to be able to cut a dog leg, or to drive a par 4 every time!

The longer the drive, the higher the risk, the greater the thrill.

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#25 North Butte

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:56 AM

A player consistently hitting 350-yard drives not only in the fairway but often to their preferred side of the fairway is amazing accuracy. If they did it with a wooden-headed, steel-shafted club and a lumpy rubber-band-wound ball that would certainly be worth some bonus points for challenge vs. doing it with an M1 and a TP5x but it's damned impressive no matter what kind of equipment. They are still propelling the ball using only the strength of their own body and they are still time after time hitting a target that is minuscule when it is two city blocks away.

Likewise someone putting a ball onto a putting green and within 20 feet of the hole from 250 yards away. Bonus points for difficulty if you do it with a blade 1-iron and a crap ball but regardless of equipment you have to propel the ball from a fairway lie, through the air for a huge distance and then be accurate to within a fraction of a percent in both distance and direction. It's prodigious.

Poo-poohing the ability that Dustin Johnson or the like exhibits when they are on song just because their accomplishments would be even harder if they used inferior equipment must surely be either an attempt to make yourself feel better about how puny your own accomplishments are or some sort of ridiculously misplaced hero worship of yesteryear's golfers who are either dead or long since retired.

Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#26 bladehunter

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:03 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 07 November 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

View Postode1, on 06 November 2017 - 10:51 PM, said:

And there is nothing stating golfers.cant play a sucky, dialed back ball.  Have at it!



Except nobody makes sucky dialed-back balls. They don't make them because nobody wants to buy them.

So you're missing the point. The only solution for the Big Bad USGA to force everyone to use sucky dialed-back balls. Then the craven manufacturers will make them. And then everyone will be happy...OK, not everyone but a few grumpy old Baby Boomers longing to force the whole world to stop and return to their glory days.

I'd say it's the boomers who wouldn't want it changed.  If I'm aligned with the boomers I respectfully resign my position and will sink off to the darkness to contemplate my position with the force.
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#27 new2g0lf

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:04 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 07 November 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

View Postroundersmitty, on 07 November 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

The rule of 1.50 max smash factor limits things enough.

No, what we need is a rule that say no ball will go farther than Jack Nicklaus was hitting a balata in 1970, no matter how much clubhead speed is produced.

Of course once we have that rule I'm sure these whining old men will move on to complaining that the modern ball isn't lumpy and doesn't have to be thrown away after a few holes. Whatever it takes to make that Jack Nicklaus was non pareil among all golfer, forever and ever amen. Anyone telling you otherwise is just being fooled by the magical ProV1 that makes them look good when they ain't.

Seems that's what it comes down to, old men afraid their records will be broken.  Did Hogan and those in his time whine when hickory shafts were replaced by steel like Jack is whining these days?

Edited by new2g0lf, 07 November 2017 - 09:16 AM.

Driver - JPX 900 10*
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Hybrids - XXIO 9 3H, 4H, 5H
Irons - Home - Callaway Epic 5-SW Away - TM P790 5-AW
Wedge - Vokey TVD 56* K Grind
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Ball - KSig, TM TP5X, Snell MTB

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#28 bladehunter

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:05 AM

View Postroundersmitty, on 07 November 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

The rule of 1.50 max smash factor limits things enough.

Except that I've seen 1.53 with the epic subzero and a Bridgestone ball.  Whether it's a cheat of trackman or real I'm not sure. But I can't get anything else to cheat it above 1.50.
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009 GSS 1.5  , Beached, tungsten sole weights, vertical stamp face

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#29 new2g0lf

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:11 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 07 November 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 06 November 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

The comments Jack and Tiger made are self serving from the perspective that they are course designers and architects and distance isn't as important to them.  

Show me a significant number of up and coming Tour player or amateur who thinks the ball goes too far.  I'd be shocked if more than 10% felt the ball needs to be rolled back.

I heard Jimmy Connors believes tennis should go back to the wood racket.

I hear there's a poll in tour talk that puts the numbers at 50/50.

That poll is poorly worded and is biased to vote for a rollback.  Seems not many understand there are already limits on equipment and golf balls and distances have not increased significantly year over year.

The rollback many of you are fighting for, doesn't roll golf back 1 year, 5 years or even 10 years but 20 years which if it was spelled out in the poll would likely change the results.
Driver - JPX 900 10*
Woods - XXIO 9 3W
Hybrids - XXIO 9 3H, 4H, 5H
Irons - Home - Callaway Epic 5-SW Away - TM P790 5-AW
Wedge - Vokey TVD 56* K Grind
Putter - Seemore Nashville mFGP2 SS Mallet Black
Ball - KSig, TM TP5X, Snell MTB

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#30 Uhit

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:20 AM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 07 November 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 07 November 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 06 November 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

The comments Jack and Tiger made are self serving from the perspective that they are course designers and architects and distance isn't as important to them.  

Show me a significant number of up and coming Tour player or amateur who thinks the ball goes too far.  I'd be shocked if more than 10% felt the ball needs to be rolled back.

I heard Jimmy Connors believes tennis should go back to the wood racket.

I hear there's a poll in tour talk that puts the numbers at 50/50.

That poll is poorly worded and is biased to vote for a rollback.  Seems not many understand there are already limits on equipment and golf balls and distances have not increased significantly year over year.

The rollback many of you are fighting for, doesn't roll golf back 1 year, 5 years or even 10 years but 20 years which if it was spelled out in the poll would likely change the results.

The more important it is, that the unbiased, informed people take part in that poll...

...and in first place, that they know, that this poll exists! :Schooled:

Edited by Uhit, 07 November 2017 - 09:21 AM.


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