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Are dark stainless steel irons forged?


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#1 64degreewedge

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:01 AM

I can't get an answer to this anywhere.  I'll get right to the point.  I still use my Spalding Super Flite irons.  They're dark gray, marked "stainless steel" and I was always under the impression that they are good forged irons.


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#2 mlp021

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:03 AM

From what I can could gather they are cast.
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#3 Nard_S

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:09 AM

You cannot forge stainless steel.

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#4 Nessism

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:10 AM

Can you post some photos?  Back in the blade days when pretty much all irons were forged there were some manufacturers making stainless steel variants.
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#5 cgasucks

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:19 AM

View PostNard_S, on 12 October 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

You cannot forge stainless steel.

True....there is no such thing as a forged stainless steel iron as the metal is very hard to forge, which is why most if not all forged iron heads are made of softer carbon steel.  Your irons are actually cast.

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#6 Nessism

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:30 AM

View Postcgasucks, on 12 October 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 12 October 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

You cannot forge stainless steel.

True....there is no such thing as a forged stainless steel iron as the metal is very hard to forge, which is why most if not all forged iron heads are made of softer carbon steel.  Your irons are actually cast.

This thread suggests otherwise...http://www.golfwrx.c...ld-i-buy-these/
Ping G30 driver w/Adila Rogue Silver 60S
TEE XCG6 3 wood & E8 hybrids
Mizuno Hot Metal irons w/Recoil 95's
Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110's
Ping Anser putter - the "real deal!"

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#7 Nard_S

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:41 AM

The nickel content of St ST will destroy the dyes in no time. It cannot be used in practical terms, heck even cast clubs w/high nickel content have gone away because of raw cost and probably because it was still pain in the a** to make.

Edited by Nard_S, 12 October 2017 - 07:41 AM.


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#8 RighttoLeft

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:28 AM

SS isn't usually forged because of die wear, but it can be forged.

Kenneth Smith had forged stainless blades and Titleist had the forged, stainless 704.CB.

Edited by RighttoLeft, 12 October 2017 - 08:29 AM.

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#9 Nessism

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:00 AM

I'm not a forging expert but clearly there have been various forged stainless steel clubs in the past, but most of those were blade designs that didn't stress the dies as much as a deep cavity back would.

BTW, 304 stainless steel has roughly the same hardness as carbon steel so on paper, one would think it should be possible to forge clubs from it.  I'm not sure how it responds to work hardening such as occurs during forging though.
Ping G30 driver w/Adila Rogue Silver 60S
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Mizuno Hot Metal irons w/Recoil 95's
Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110's
Ping Anser putter - the "real deal!"

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#10 Beeez

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:30 AM

I'm still playing my Titleist 704cb forged stainless irons so I know it has n
Been done at least once. Haven't seen anything recently though.


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#11 Bad9

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:47 AM

View PostNard_S, on 12 October 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

You cannot forge stainless steel.

If you go on Ebay you will find sets of forged, stainless Spaldings from the 50's and 60's maybe earlier. I think there are others as well. You can forge stainless it is just harder(and therefore more expensive) to do.

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#12 arbeck

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:52 AM

You can have carbon steel that is MUCH harder than the hardest stainless. Most of the best kitchen knives are carbon steel instead of stainless because there are much more affordable carbon steel options that can be very hard. Most stainless steel knives are pretty soft by comparison.
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#13 EvanScottKing

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:37 PM

View PostNessism, on 12 October 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

View Postcgasucks, on 12 October 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 12 October 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

You cannot forge stainless steel.

True....there is no such thing as a forged stainless steel iron as the metal is very hard to forge, which is why most if not all forged iron heads are made of softer carbon steel.  Your irons are actually cast.

This thread suggests otherwise...http://www.golfwrx.c...ld-i-buy-these/

Edel uses 304 Stainless in  a number of their designs.  My Edel CB's are forged SS heads.
Bag is comprised of Callaway & Edel.  WITB

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#14 Nard_S

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:41 PM

There is an utter lack of practicality to forging St ST or using high content of Nickel in cast process. Last irons w/ cast nickel I know of were Ping ISi and Ram Tours from the 90's.

I've machined high nickel alloys and it is biotch to work with. It is also very expensive. The stuff is actually softer than carbon steel but the grain and properties of it make tough to manipulate and it destroys the toughest of tooling applied to it. I pass on that work now.

Carbon forging is cheaper, cold head forging is cheaper still because there is a lot less finish work to be done. Costs dictate these things.If someone is doing it, bless them. I would entertain high nickel CB any day, even entertain forged StSt........lot of people did it and stopped for good reason.

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#15 64degreewedge

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:28 PM

Thanks to all who have cleared up my question.  Since the set of 3-pw was purchased for around $150 I'd guess....it was kind of 1987, I'm sure now they have to be cast.


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#16 mvhoffman

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:55 AM

https://www.diamondt...pless-iron.html

I think these would work
Driver - Cobra King F7 w Diamond tour tipped S/X shaft
Mini-Driver - Taylor Made SLDR Mini 16* w Fujikura Speeder 57
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Ball - Srixon AD333 / Wilson 50 Elite Golf Ball
Grips - Karma Velvet Midsize / Putter Grip: Super Stroke 3.0 USA Ryder Cup

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#17 TomWishon

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 01:27 PM

View Postcgasucks, on 12 October 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 12 October 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

You cannot forge stainless steel.

True....there is no such thing as a forged stainless steel iron as the metal is very hard to forge, which is why most if not all forged iron heads are made of softer carbon steel.  Your irons are actually cast.

You and Nard are both wrong.  As post #8 said, Kenneth Smith's irons were exclusively forged stainless steel during the life of their company.  And take it to the bank, KS were considered in their day the top golf company in the game from a pure technical and quality standpoint.  No one back then could touch them for technical acumen and quality in a golf club.  

If you do a little research you will find that there is a huge range in the strength/hardness/ductility of stainless steel alloys all the way from 300 series stainless which is well under 100 KSI for yield strength and HRB 80 for hardness with 40% elongation - all the way up to stainless alloys over 300 KSI in strength, HRC 50's for hardness and less than 5% elongation.  

You can forge ANY alloy providing you have a big enough press and the dies are made properly to withstand the wear and tear of the forging process.  Case in point would be commercial aircraft landing gear parts.  While some landing gear parts are machined, many are forged from titanium alloys and high strength steel alloys as well.  It just takes a big enough press and the right alloy of tool steel to make the dies.  

Nard did have one thing right when he said that there really is no reason to forge an iron head from stainless steel.  The absolute strength and durability requirements of an iron head are not even close to being stringent enough to require the head to be forged from a higher strength alloy such as what many of the golf related stainless alloys like 431 or 17-4 or 15-5, etc are like.  The reason you forge a part is because the function of the part would require the toughness that comes from an isotropic grain structure - again this is why landing gear parts are forged and not cast.  Believe me, Boeing or Airbus would not want one of their planes depositing all its mass during a landing on a cast landing gear !!  

But with iron heads, the strength/durability requirement is so small that we can cast the heads from any of the stainless alloys and never have to worry that the casting is not as tough as a forging.  One piece construction iron heads do not break or fracture in the face area from the repeated stress of impact.  The hosel can break from repeated impact with the ground or mat, but even that is rare and tends to require excessive abuse of the head before it happens.   As Nard indicated, forging a clubhead from stainless is a waste of money with no real advantage.   So if you want to make a head from stainless steel, you cast it because that is so much less expensive and allows you to form quite intricate shapes and weight distribution features with very little post cast production work and no need for any special type of finish other than forms of polishing.  

Now if you want to forge an iron from titanium, there you can make a quite viable argument in favor of that from a pure performance standpoint.   Anyone care to guess why?

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#18 cgasucks

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 02:17 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 15 October 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

View Postcgasucks, on 12 October 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 12 October 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

You cannot forge stainless steel.

True....there is no such thing as a forged stainless steel iron as the metal is very hard to forge, which is why most if not all forged iron heads are made of softer carbon steel.  Your irons are actually cast.

You and Nard are both wrong.  As post #8 said, Kenneth Smith's irons were exclusively forged stainless steel during the life of their company.  And take it to the bank, KS were considered in their day the top golf company in the game from a pure technical and quality standpoint.  No one back then could touch them for technical acumen and quality in a golf club.  

If you do a little research you will find that there is a huge range in the strength/hardness/ductility of stainless steel alloys all the way from 300 series stainless which is well under 100 KSI for yield strength and HRC 80 for hardness with 40% elongation - all the way up to stainless alloys over 300 KSI in strength, HRC 50's for hardness and less than 5% elongation.  

You can forge ANY alloy providing you have a big enough press and the dies are made properly to withstand the wear and tear of the forging process.  Case in point would be commercial aircraft landing gear parts.  While some landing gear parts are machined, many are forged from titanium alloys and high strength steel alloys as well.  It just takes a big enough press and the right alloy of tool steel to make the dies.  

Nard did have one thing right when he said that there really is no reason to forge an iron head from stainless steel.  The absolute strength and durability requirements of an iron head are not even close to being stringent enough to require the head to be forged from a higher strength alloy such as what many of the golf related stainless alloys like 431 or 17-4 or 15-5, etc are like.  The reason you forge a part is because the function of the part would require the toughness that comes from an isotropic grain structure - again this is why landing gear parts are forged and not cast.  Believe me, Boeing or Airbus would not want one of their planes depositing all its mass during a landing on a cast landing gear !!  

But with iron heads, the strength/durability requirement is so small that we can cast the heads from any of the stainless alloys and never have to worry that the casting is not as tough as a forging.  One piece construction iron heads do not break or fracture in the face area from the repeated stress of impact.  The hosel can break from repeated impact with the ground or mat, but even that is rare and tends to require excessive abuse of the head before it happens.   As Nard indicated, forging a clubhead from stainless is a waste of money with no real advantage.   So if you want to make a head from stainless steel, you cast it because that is so much less expensive and allows you to form quite intricate shapes and weight distribution features with very little post cast production work and no need for any special type of finish other than forms of polishing.  

Now if you want to forge an iron from titanium, there you can make a quite viable argument in favor of that from a pure performance standpoint.   Anyone care to guess why?

Thank you for enlightening me on this.  It is an honor to have my post quoted by Tom Wishon, even if he tells me that I'm wrong..

Edited by cgasucks, 15 October 2017 - 02:17 PM.

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1988 Tommy Armour 845s (3-PW, W3 (GW), SW) with stock TT Tour Step shafts
Taylormade V-Steel 5W & 3W with Grafalloy Prolaunch Red shafts
Ping Anser 2 Stainless Steel Putter

18

#19 Arafel

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 02:55 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 15 October 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

View Postcgasucks, on 12 October 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 12 October 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

You cannot forge stainless steel.

True....there is no such thing as a forged stainless steel iron as the metal is very hard to forge, which is why most if not all forged iron heads are made of softer carbon steel.  Your irons are actually cast.

You and Nard are both wrong.  As post #8 said, Kenneth Smith's irons were exclusively forged stainless steel during the life of their company.  And take it to the bank, KS were considered in their day the top golf company in the game from a pure technical and quality standpoint.  No one back then could touch them for technical acumen and quality in a golf club.  

If you do a little research you will find that there is a huge range in the strength/hardness/ductility of stainless steel alloys all the way from 300 series stainless which is well under 100 KSI for yield strength and HRB 80 for hardness with 40% elongation - all the way up to stainless alloys over 300 KSI in strength, HRC 50's for hardness and less than 5% elongation.  

You can forge ANY alloy providing you have a big enough press and the dies are made properly to withstand the wear and tear of the forging process.  Case in point would be commercial aircraft landing gear parts.  While some landing gear parts are machined, many are forged from titanium alloys and high strength steel alloys as well.  It just takes a big enough press and the right alloy of tool steel to make the dies.  

Nard did have one thing right when he said that there really is no reason to forge an iron head from stainless steel.  The absolute strength and durability requirements of an iron head are not even close to being stringent enough to require the head to be forged from a higher strength alloy such as what many of the golf related stainless alloys like 431 or 17-4 or 15-5, etc are like.  The reason you forge a part is because the function of the part would require the toughness that comes from an isotropic grain structure - again this is why landing gear parts are forged and not cast.  Believe me, Boeing or Airbus would not want one of their planes depositing all its mass during a landing on a cast landing gear !!  

But with iron heads, the strength/durability requirement is so small that we can cast the heads from any of the stainless alloys and never have to worry that the casting is not as tough as a forging.  One piece construction iron heads do not break or fracture in the face area from the repeated stress of impact.  The hosel can break from repeated impact with the ground or mat, but even that is rare and tends to require excessive abuse of the head before it happens.   As Nard indicated, forging a clubhead from stainless is a waste of money with no real advantage.   So if you want to make a head from stainless steel, you cast it because that is so much less expensive and allows you to form quite intricate shapes and weight distribution features with very little post cast production work and no need for any special type of finish other than forms of polishing.  

Now if you want to forge an iron from titanium, there you can make a quite viable argument in favor of that from a pure performance standpoint.   Anyone care to guess why?

Face flex?

19

#20 RighttoLeft

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 03:24 PM

View PostTomWishon, on 15 October 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

View Postcgasucks, on 12 October 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 12 October 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

You cannot forge stainless steel.

True....there is no such thing as a forged stainless steel iron as the metal is very hard to forge, which is why most if not all forged iron heads are made of softer carbon steel.  Your irons are actually cast.

You and Nard are both wrong.  As post #8 said, Kenneth Smith's irons were exclusively forged stainless steel during the life of their company.  And take it to the bank, KS were considered in their day the top golf company in the game from a pure technical and quality standpoint.  No one back then could touch them for technical acumen and quality in a golf club.  

If you do a little research you will find that there is a huge range in the strength/hardness/ductility of stainless steel alloys all the way from 300 series stainless which is well under 100 KSI for yield strength and HRB 80 for hardness with 40% elongation - all the way up to stainless alloys over 300 KSI in strength, HRC 50's for hardness and less than 5% elongation.  

You can forge ANY alloy providing you have a big enough press and the dies are made properly to withstand the wear and tear of the forging process.  Case in point would be commercial aircraft landing gear parts.  While some landing gear parts are machined, many are forged from titanium alloys and high strength steel alloys as well.  It just takes a big enough press and the right alloy of tool steel to make the dies.  

Nard did have one thing right when he said that there really is no reason to forge an iron head from stainless steel.  The absolute strength and durability requirements of an iron head are not even close to being stringent enough to require the head to be forged from a higher strength alloy such as what many of the golf related stainless alloys like 431 or 17-4 or 15-5, etc are like.  The reason you forge a part is because the function of the part would require the toughness that comes from an isotropic grain structure - again this is why landing gear parts are forged and not cast.  Believe me, Boeing or Airbus would not want one of their planes depositing all its mass during a landing on a cast landing gear !!  

But with iron heads, the strength/durability requirement is so small that we can cast the heads from any of the stainless alloys and never have to worry that the casting is not as tough as a forging.  One piece construction iron heads do not break or fracture in the face area from the repeated stress of impact.  The hosel can break from repeated impact with the ground or mat, but even that is rare and tends to require excessive abuse of the head before it happens.   As Nard indicated, forging a clubhead from stainless is a waste of money with no real advantage.   So if you want to make a head from stainless steel, you cast it because that is so much less expensive and allows you to form quite intricate shapes and weight distribution features with very little post cast production work and no need for any special type of finish other than forms of polishing.  

Now if you want to forge an iron from titanium, there you can make a quite viable argument in favor of that from a pure performance standpoint.   Anyone care to guess why?

Forging a thinner Ti face to increase CoR? And adding tungsten to the sole to lower CoG?

Taylormade RBZ 9° with Diamana Flowerband Whiteboard 63 stiff
Taylormade R11 17° (turned to 16°) and 22° (turned to 20.5°) with Diamana D+ 70 stiff
Adams Super Black 21° Hybrid with Diamana D+ 90 stiff
Titleist AP2 712 4-PW with DGS-300
Vokey SM4 52° and 58°
Taylormade Ghost Tour DA-12

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#21 TomWishon

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 09:42 AM

View PostArafel, on 16 October 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:



Now if you want to forge an iron from titanium, there you can make a quite viable argument in favor of that from a pure performance standpoint.   Anyone care to guess why?

Face flex?

No, you can easily do that with any iron made from a steel alloy for the body, and you can do that whether you cast or forge the body of the head.

Keep thinking !!  (The next post got part of it but not quite ! )

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#22 TomWishon

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 09:49 AM

View PostRighttoLeft, on 16 October 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

  

Now if you want to forge an iron from titanium, there you can make a quite viable argument in favor of that from a pure performance standpoint.   Anyone care to guess why?


Forging a thinner Ti face to increase CoR? And adding tungsten to the sole to lower CoG?

No for the first guess based on my response above to Arafel's same guess.   You can achieve just as high of a COR with high strength steel in a cast steel body as you can with the right titanium alloys in a cast titanium body or forged titanium body.

You're getting warmer with your second guess though !  Although you're not quite there because you can most definitely cast some titanium alloys on which you could attach the tungsten for a C of G change or more importantly a much larger MOI increase.  We're talking forging here, not casting so think along the line of whether there could be a situation of a type of titanium that cannot be cast but which due to its different mechanical properties could work as a better BODY material for the iron.

Additional hint, think about what I did with the hosel design of my 919THI driver heads and what grade of titanium, not alloy, that was done with and why. . . . . . .

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#23 Nard_S

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 01:24 PM

My guess would be to move mass and distribute in head to increase effective hitting zone via tungsten or something else. Forged Ti would have better properties than cast to withstand loads placed on hosel.

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#24 BuckeyeGolf1981

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 03:03 PM

$?

What wins on Sunday and sells on Monday............... ends up on the BST on Thursday.


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