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The secret to hitting the sweetspot with any club


103 replies to this topic

#31 Golfrnut

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:14 AM

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

View PostGolfrnut, on 12 October 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

View PostGolfrnut, on 12 October 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

And all this means is pretty much nothing. We have toe drop during the golf swing. The CG does not stay in the same position relative to the shaft plane anyway, it moves dynamically throughout the swing. Anyone that says they can feel or keep up with these changes is off their rocker. The body/brain is not fast enough to compensate for the changes, the body is already committed long before a lot of this stuff even happens.
You prove my point I'm not long I have about a 105 swing speed which is decent for a out of shape hunchbacked 40 year old. I normally play x100 because I like the feel. These two clubs have a lot of toe droop especially the callaway because of its sweetspot being so far from the shaft and the fact it's a regular flex graphite shaft. I couldn't hit the center of the club with one swing one take with these two totally different clubs with all the variables involved based on making compensations in my setup or how I align it or compensating for toe droop. THE ONLY READON I CAN DO IT IS BECAUSE I SWING THE SWEETSPOT I IMAGINE THE CLUB IS A CENTER SHAFTED CLUB AND MY SHAFT IS DIRECTLY RUNNING THROUGH THE CENTER OF THE CLUB. Because that's what I feel the tug of the cog when I start down.


Again, if you think you are able to compensate once you are already in the downswing, you are fooling yourself.  Not to mention the COG position is completely different due to the transition force and club orientation from where it is at the top vs at impact.

I would be willing to bet that those two shafts in each of those clubs is completely different am I right?  The shaft weight isn't the same, the bend profile isn't the same, etc.  And you are trying to base this on COG location?  Your test is awful.  When you test, you have controls so you can rule things out.  You have none.

I'm not proving anything for you.

Thank you again golfnut you are proving my point much better than I could.  The shafts are different the grips are different the lengths are different one is graphite one has a tiny forged head one has a super large head.  

There is no way I could compensate for the variables and  hit the cog.

There is one thing they have in common.  The both have a Center of gravity or a sweetspot.  

I don't need to know where it is I just need to swing the feel of it at the ball.  It's the same thing great baseball players do the swing the sweetspot of the bat at the ball.  Their brain calculates where the ball is gonna be and they manipulate the COG of the bat at that spot they believe the ball will be.  

I would use the <rolleyes> emoticon here but it just wouldn't the look on my face justice.

Well, it's safe to say that you still have no grasping of the concept that you have no idea what you are talking about.

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#32 Macogardy

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:18 AM

I've shown evidence
That in one swing an amateur golfer can hit two 1 and 2 irons very close to the cog without any attempt to do so by setup manipulation.  And they both have very different COG locations.  



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#33 Over it

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:23 AM

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

View PostOver it, on 12 October 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

View PostRange Rodent, on 12 October 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

I would disagree with that,  that's my whole point if the Cog of the club was a 1/2" from the edge of the face my mark would have been right there.  

The actual center of the clubhead is an illusion
It's the COG that matters.  
I tried to make it as evident as possible by finding two clubs with sweet spots far apart 1" from hosel on the hogan is pretty close it's a very small club , just as small or smaller then a miura baby blade
The callaway has a sweetspot 1.75" so a full 3/4" farther out
Because I feel and focus on swinging the COG my hands brought the cog pretty much right on the ball with a 1 iron and a 2 iron.  

I can back up 2 ft away farther from the ball way outstretched and still hit it on the sweetspot.  It's because I feel the cog as I swing and forget about the shaft

Disagree all you want but til you get an implement where the sweet spot is not in the near middle of the clubface and see if you still hit the sweetspot, the test means nothing.

Most blades have the sweetspot closer to the heel
Very few clubs actually have the COG in the center of the face.  

The pros are masters of hitting the sweetspot because of there coordination and good swinging feel of bringing that COG on the club to the ball.  That's how trick shot guys can hit a ball in the air they see it there brain calculates in milliseconds where the ball will be in space and they swing the COG at it.


So their brain and eyes do it, they are really good at something they have practiced at and now have achieved subconscious mastery of a skill.
If feeling a tiny cog while swinging an object around was so easy we all could do it.

It takes a lot of practice , talent and skill development before you can master something.  Some never can.

Well I'm not saying everyone will be able to do it equally I'm jealous st saying without the intention of swinging the cog into the ball you have no chance.

Obviously coordination good mechanics balance play into allowing a person to hit the ball solid.  

My point is I didn't know where the sweetspot was on those clubs but I found it in one swing on both because I felt it.  

Another drill you can do is start with the clubhead 6 inches inside the ball then swing back and swing the cog back out to the ball
You'll be amazed that even though you started way off you can hit the sweetspot because you can feel where it is


Yeah maybe but my eyes see it and my brain knows where the ball is so there's that. I don't relate to where the sweet spot is on something like that example I relate to where the ball is in relation to where I started the clubhead. My eyes and brain realize the club is in a different starting location and to hit the ball I need to adjust.

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#34 Macogardy

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:25 AM

The story how I figured this out was about 12 years ago I was struggling hitting the ball on the toe.  So I bought some impact tape and tried getting closer to the ball,  I tried choking up I tried different clubs.  Everyone I hit it on the toe by maybe a 1/2"

So I thought like a previous poster mentioned I'm gonna try to hit it on the hosel  I'm gonna fire the hosel directly into the ball and guess what I hit it dead solid.  

Then I stood farther and closer from the ball and repeated the good contact.  Later I learned that because It was working because the face Cog was laying on the same plane as the hosel at the top of the swing, it's the main reason having a clubface on plane is important at the top.  But once I got it in my head that I could just swing that cog and focus on that I started hitting the sweetspot much more consistent .

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#35 Over it

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:28 AM

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

I've shown evidence
That in one swing an amateur golfer can hit two 1 and 2 irons very close to the cog without any attempt to do so by setup manipulation.  And they both have very different COG locations.  


I want a hacker to do the same test. I always like when someone good or great shows what they can do and say things like this.... gee how did they get good? I doubt the average person playing golf can feel the COG especially when it's the size of a pin head and is changing location in the swing due to the shaft flexing and bending all over.

Plus the average person can't even tell where their hands are position wise at any point in the swing.


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#36 Over it

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:32 AM

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

The story how I figured this out was about 12 years ago I was struggling hitting the ball on the toe.  So I bought some impact tape and tried getting closer to the ball,  I tried choking up I tried different clubs.  Everyone I hit it on the toe by maybe a 1/2"

So I thought like a previous poster mentioned I'm gonna try to hit it on the hosel  I'm gonna fire the hosel directly into the ball and guess what I hit it dead solid.  

Then I stood farther and closer from the ball and repeated the good contact.  Later I learned that because It was working because the face Cog was laying on the same plane as the hosel at the top of the swing, it's the main reason having a clubface on plane is important at the top.  But once I got it in my head that I could just swing that cog and focus on that I started hitting the sweetspot much more consistent .



You do know that most ams. lead the sweet spot with the hosel in the way .... right?  Thus all the open face problems.

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#37 Macogardy

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:29 PM

View PostOver it, on 12 October 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

I've shown evidence
That in one swing an amateur golfer can hit two 1 and 2 irons very close to the cog without any attempt to do so by setup manipulation.  And they both have very different COG locations.  


I want a hacker to do the same test. I always like when someone good or great shows what they can do and say things like this.... gee how did they get good? I doubt the average person playing golf can feel the COG especially when it's the size of a pin head and is changing location in the swing due to the shaft flexing and bending all over.

Plus the average person can't even tell where their hands are position wise at any point in the swing.

Good idea maybe I'll do a segmeant trying to find a hack at the range and have him hit a few balls with a impact sticker.  Then change his intention and see if it helps.

I tried to do that by hitting too totally different clubs so you could see how the feel finds the sweetspot

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#38 Macogardy

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:31 PM

View PostOver it, on 12 October 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

The story how I figured this out was about 12 years ago I was struggling hitting the ball on the toe.  So I bought some impact tape and tried getting closer to the ball,  I tried choking up I tried different clubs.  Everyone I hit it on the toe by maybe a 1/2"

So I thought like a previous poster mentioned I'm gonna try to hit it on the hosel  I'm gonna fire the hosel directly into the ball and guess what I hit it dead solid.  

Then I stood farther and closer from the ball and repeated the good contact.  Later I learned that because It was working because the face Cog was laying on the same plane as the hosel at the top of the swing, it's the main reason having a clubface on plane is important at the top.  But once I got it in my head that I could just swing that cog and focus on that I started hitting the sweetspot much more consistent .



You do know that most ams. lead the sweet spot with the hosel in the way .... right?  Thus all the open face problems.

That's not why they have open face all pros lead with the hosel in the first foot of the swing.  

And have open face problems because the face is way open to the pivot they control the face with there hands instead of letting the turning body control the rare of rotation.

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#39 Over it

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:35 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

View PostOver it, on 12 October 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

The story how I figured this out was about 12 years ago I was struggling hitting the ball on the toe.  So I bought some impact tape and tried getting closer to the ball,  I tried choking up I tried different clubs.  Everyone I hit it on the toe by maybe a 1/2"

So I thought like a previous poster mentioned I'm gonna try to hit it on the hosel  I'm gonna fire the hosel directly into the ball and guess what I hit it dead solid.  

Then I stood farther and closer from the ball and repeated the good contact.  Later I learned that because It was working because the face Cog was laying on the same plane as the hosel at the top of the swing, it's the main reason having a clubface on plane is important at the top.  But once I got it in my head that I could just swing that cog and focus on that I started hitting the sweetspot much more consistent .



You do know that most ams. lead the sweet spot with the hosel in the way .... right?  Thus all the open face problems.

That's not why they have open face all pros lead with the hosel in the first foot of the swing.  

And have open face problems because the face is way open to the pivot they control the face with there hands instead of letting the turning body control the rare of rotation.  You must be in the camp that thinks Hogan had no supination in his swing. With him rotating the lead arm even more in the D.S. how on earth did he get the face on the ball... just pivot like crazy with the hosel leading and expect that to just square it up enough to hit his fade.

Just think how an extremely open face can square up enough to get a power fade ... I'll tell you it ain't from the pivot alone.


Yeah I'm not talking about the first foot of the swing.  Plus if you  rotated your lead arm to get the club on the so called plane the face is open and somewhere you have to re-rotate it to square the face up or you lead the sweet spot with the hosel in the way too long.  No amount of pivot is going to fix that!

You must think that Hogan used his pivot alone to square up his wide open face without any supination. Hogan rotated his lead arm more on the D.S. to open his face more I seriously doubt he used his pivot to square that up, he had to supinate his forearm and that gave him a more square face/less open face and his pivot helped to not over rotate the club face.

I guess you haven't seen graphs of tour players and what their lead arms and wrists are doing.

Edited by Over it, 12 October 2017 - 01:01 PM.


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#40 Over it

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:59 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

View PostOver it, on 12 October 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

I've shown evidence
That in one swing an amateur golfer can hit two 1 and 2 irons very close to the cog without any attempt to do so by setup manipulation.  And they both have very different COG locations.  


I want a hacker to do the same test. I always like when someone good or great shows what they can do and say things like this.... gee how did they get good? I doubt the average person playing golf can feel the COG especially when it's the size of a pin head and is changing location in the swing due to the shaft flexing and bending all over.

Plus the average person can't even tell where their hands are position wise at any point in the swing.

Good idea maybe I'll do a segmeant trying to find a hack at the range and have him hit a few balls with a impact sticker.  Then change his intention and see if it helps.

I tried to do that by hitting too totally different clubs so you could see how the feel finds the sweetspot


Ask yourself some questions   does a hacker find the sweet spot on the ball at impact as much as a good or excellent golfer?  If not why is that?  Is it because they feel the sweet spot and can't get it there or is it because of  other reasons?  Are they even aware of a sweet spot?


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#41 Over it

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:08 PM

I know about the sweet spot and miss it lot's of times compared to a really good player....why is that? oh yeah I'm not as good and I got more wrong things in my swing compared to a really good player... yet I can post some good scores regardless....hmmmm?  posting good scores= sweet spot =  :nyam:

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#42 robbohank

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:32 PM

This Manzella video may add to the discussion. Addresses leading with the hosel:



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#43 HitEmTrue

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:34 PM

I believe there's truth in what you are saying.  

Good player will hit the center on either club.  Bad golfer who misses on the toe, will tend to miss on the toe with either club.

So what exactly is the "secret", or the application of this information?  Better golfers are already swinging the entire club, and not consciously "aiming" to hit the sweet spot.

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#44 Yff Theos

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:43 PM

View Postrobbohank, on 12 October 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

This Manzella video may add to the discussion. Addresses leading with the hosel:



A good vid as well. As I said before in the thread, #3 pp used correctly and the sweetspot is on its way. A hacker often does not allow the sweetspot to be in play. Sometimes you need to allow things happen.

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#45 Cwebb

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:01 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

  
Then I stood farther and closer from the ball and repeated the good contact.  Later I learned that because It was working because the face Cog was laying on the same plane as the hosel at the top of the swing, it's the main reason having a clubface on plane is important at the top.  But once I got it in my head that I could just swing that cog and focus on that I started hitting the sweetspot much more consistent .

That would make sense for someone who hits it towards the toe,....but for the guy who doesn't, it could easily lead to shanks.

I don't consider it a secret.  It's a feel intention that works for you,....which is great


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#46 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:14 PM

Mac, you've given away so many secrets of the pros, I fear you'll be targeted for assassination.

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#47 robbohank

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:29 PM

View PostYff Theos, on 12 October 2017 - 01:43 PM, said:

A good vid as well. As I said before in the thread, #3 pp used correctly and the sweetspot is on its way. A hacker often does not allow the sweetspot to be in play. Sometimes you need to allow things happen.

Y - I can understand how losing pressure in PP#3 means your probably throwing some lag away but how do you see it affecting sweetspot strikes? I vaguely remember some experiment where you could plumb bob the club along with a weight attached to a string (with the top of string held at PP #3) and the weight would always seek to align with the SS. I don't know that I've ever felt the connection of that pressure point to the sweetspot.

I tend to have an open face deep into the downswing which gets me leading with the hosel too long and (I think) produces the odd shank out of nowhere.

Edited by robbohank, 12 October 2017 - 02:30 PM.


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#48 Yff Theos

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:41 PM

View Postrobbohank, on 12 October 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

View PostYff Theos, on 12 October 2017 - 01:43 PM, said:

A good vid as well. As I said before in the thread, #3 pp used correctly and the sweetspot is on its way. A hacker often does not allow the sweetspot to be in play. Sometimes you need to allow things happen.

Y - I can understand how losing pressure in PP#3 means your probably throwing some lag away but how do you see it affecting sweetspot strikes? I vaguely remember some experiment where you could plumb bob the club along with a weight attached to a string (with the top of string held at PP #3) and the weight would always seek to align with the SS. I don't know that I've ever felt the connection of that pressure point to the sweetspot.

I tend to have an open face deep into the downswing which gets me leading with the hosel too long and (I think) produces the odd shank out of nowhere.

It's simple. The clubhead turns around its cog = sweetspot. It means when toe goes forward the heel must go simultaneously backward. If you prevent this too much the clubhead stays still and the hosel/shaft leads. #3pp makes the clubhead close without letting the heel go backward since it pushes the shaft forward.

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#49 Strike Force

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:21 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

The story how I figured this out was about 12 years ago I was struggling hitting the ball on the toe.  So I bought some impact tape and tried getting closer to the ball,  I tried choking up I tried different clubs.  Everyone I hit it on the toe by maybe a 1/2"

So I thought like a previous poster mentioned I'm gonna try to hit it on the hosel  I'm gonna fire the hosel directly into the ball and guess what I hit it dead solid.  

Then I stood farther and closer from the ball and repeated the good contact.  Later I learned that because It was working because the face Cog was laying on the same plane as the hosel at the top of the swing, it's the main reason having a clubface on plane is important at the top.  But once I got it in my head that I could just swing that cog and focus on that I started hitting the sweetspot much more consistent .


Macogardy is correct.  This post of his (above) should provide a different insight into what he is trying to convey, which hopefully offers a better understanding.

You have a clubshaft plane that goes from the grip end of the shaft through the clubhead hosel and you have a sweet spot plane (or longitudinal center of gravity) that goes from the grip end of the shaft to the actual sweet spot on the clubface. During the backswing these two planes get in-line with one another where both the clubshaft plane and sweet spot plane are laying on the golfer's swing path plane as it approaches the mid-backswing position.  In the mid-downswing the golfer's body pivot and arm rotation starts the process of the sweet spot plane moving off from being in-line with the clubshaft plane, and thus the club's sweet spot wants to align itself with the shaft's grip end, which is why the shaft is seen bending downward as it comes into impact - known as drooping or toe down deflection.  The primary reason the lower shaft bends downward (besides gravity) is because the sweet spot (or Cg) forces the shaft out of the way ... just like it forces the shaft out of the way if you twist a vertical golf club between your palms - the sweet spot aligns with the grip end of shaft and the lower shaft rotates about (or around) the club's sweet spot.  Without a death grip on the club and/or crazy manipulation that interferes and prevents it from happening, the clubface rotates through impact along the target line and also on the swing plane.  If you tried to intentionally have the hosel hit the ball at impact you would have to intentionally redirect your swing plane ... because as Macogardy learned 12 years ago when he intentionally tried to hit the ball with the hosel - as he swung the hosel on-plane in the early downswing the sweet spot moved to where the hosel once was.  He kept hitting the ball dead solid on the sweet spot!  In other words; he found that *where the hosel of the golf club 'was' in the early downswing was where the sweet spot 'is' when he swung it through the impact zone*.  Thus, he understands what happens - and as he says he now swings the sweet spot of the club...

On a different yet obviously related topic, it should be noted that under normal circumstances (unlike when swinging more horizontally when the ball is above your feet) the clubface will not square itself through impact without some added help. When swinging a golf club that has ever-increasing pulling force and acceleration (handle-dragging or not) during the downswing, the golfer must help to increase the rate of closure of the clubface through the impact zone. This can be done by forearm rotation, etc., but this issue should not be taken away from the correctness of what the OP has stated.

Here is a video of Jeff Evan (Pure Ball Striker training aid) explaining briefly the clubshaft plane and the sweet spot plane, which hopefully helps to enlighten you.


Edited by Strike Force, 12 October 2017 - 04:38 PM.

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#50 Golfrnut

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:45 PM

View PostStrike Force, on 12 October 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

The story how I figured this out was about 12 years ago I was struggling hitting the ball on the toe.  So I bought some impact tape and tried getting closer to the ball,  I tried choking up I tried different clubs.  Everyone I hit it on the toe by maybe a 1/2"

So I thought like a previous poster mentioned I'm gonna try to hit it on the hosel  I'm gonna fire the hosel directly into the ball and guess what I hit it dead solid.  

Then I stood farther and closer from the ball and repeated the good contact.  Later I learned that because It was working because the face Cog was laying on the same plane as the hosel at the top of the swing, it's the main reason having a clubface on plane is important at the top.  But once I got it in my head that I could just swing that cog and focus on that I started hitting the sweetspot much more consistent .


Macogardy is correct.  This post of his (above) should provide a different insight into what he is trying to convey, which hopefully offers a better understanding.

You have a clubshaft plane that goes from the grip end of the shaft through the clubhead hosel and you have a sweet spot plane (or longitudinal center of gravity) that goes from the grip end of the shaft to the actual sweet spot on the clubface. During the backswing these two planes get in-line with one another where both the clubshaft plane and sweet spot plane are laying on the golfer's swing path plane as it approaches the mid-backswing position.  In the mid-downswing the golfer's body pivot and arm rotation starts the process of the sweet spot plane moving off being in-line with the clubshaft plane and therefore the sweet spot wants to align itself with the shaft's grip end, which is why the shaft is seen bending downward as it comes into impact - known as drooping or toe down deflection.  The primary reason the lower shaft bends downward (besides gravity) is because the sweet spot (or Cg) forces the shaft out of the way ... just like it forces the shaft out of the way if you twist a vertical golf club between your palms - the sweet spot aligns with the grip end of shaft and the lower shaft rotates around the sweet spot.  Without a death grip on the club and/or crazy manipulation that interferes and prevents it from happening, the clubface rotates through impact along the target line and also on the swing plane.  If you tried to intentionally have the hosel hit the ball at impact you would have to intentionally redirect your swing plane.  As Macogardy learned years ago when he tried to hit the ball with the hosel - as he swung the hosel on-plane in the early downswing the sweet spot moved to where the hosel once was.  In other words; he found that *where the hosel of the golf club 'was' in the early downswing was where the sweet spot 'is' when he swung it through the impact zone*.  Thus, he swings the sweet spot...

On a different yet obvious related topic, it should be noted that under normal circumstances (unlike when swinging more horizontally when the ball is above your feet) the clubface will not square itself through impact without some added help. When swinging a golf club that has ever-increasing acceleration (handle-dragging or not) during the downswing, the golfer must help to increase the rate of closure of the clubface through the impact zone. This can be done by forearm rotation, etc., but this issue should not be taken away from the correctness of what the OP has stated.

Here is a video of Jeff Evan (Pure Ball Striker training aid) explaining briefly the clubshaft plane and the sweet spot plane, which hopefully helps to enlighten you.



And going off data that has actually been measured on how the golf club and CG react instead of assumed as you are doing, you are both wrong.

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#51 pearsonified

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 04:00 PM

Despite some commenters dropping poop emojis on everything, this is a great thread.

OP spent some time focusing on the distance of the CoG to shaft, and this is a facet of club geometry that few players truly understand and/or use to their advantage.

Tons of people who end up playing golf already have a natural "feel" for hitting with the barrel of a baseball bat. I've mentioned this in a different thread, but I'll repeat it here: Golf is a lot like baseball, but with an angled attachment off the barrel that screws with your natural hit instincts.

IMO, the degree to which you have to fight (or perhaps re-train) your hitting intuition for golf can be quantified somewhat by the distance of the shaft to the CoG.

I've learned I am better with any club if the CoG is closer to the shaft. So for example, if you gave me a monstrous SGI iron with the sweet spot 1.75" away from the shaft, I would hit it worse than an iron with the sweet spot 1" away from the shaft.

Quick side note: IMO, OP made a much better swing and had superior impact with the Hogan iron (with the lower shaft-to-CoG distance). I don't think this was a coincidence.

In other words, the farther away the CoG is from the shaft, the more detached the point of impact becomes from where our natural hit instincts want it to be (which would be very near the shaft—the object we are actually swinging).

**********

I finally realized the importance of CoG placement/distance when I was hitting a PSP "Little One" training club a while back. I was in the middle of a ball striking slump, and in an attempt to break free, I knocked around a few balls with the PSP 7-iron.

The results were remarkable.

I immediately went from "good god, where is the sweet spot?" with my 7-iron to "holy crap, I wish I could hit my 7-iron anywhere near that well!" with the PSP 7-iron.

For me, the secret sauce wasn't in the gimmickry of the PSP training club—it was simply the fact that the CoG is only about 0.5" away from the shaft.

As a result, even though the head on the PSP is tiny, I can absolutely crush it because it allows me to tap into my natural hit instincts and "swing it like a dowel," as OP said earlier in this thread.

Ultimately, I understand what OP is saying, and I think on a very basic level, his premise is correct.

In my case, my brain has a very difficult time perceiving the shaft + club head as a single unit (a dowel), and this leads to a fork in the road. I must either:
  • Re-train my brain to perceive the shaft + club head as a single unit, or
  • Adjust my equipment to tap into my natural hit instincts as much as possible.
The first possibility may be suitable for many players—they can simply start "seeing" the club in a different way, and this will be enough to produce positive results.

I'm intrigued by the second approach. For me, the answer has been to use smaller iron heads and flatter lie angles, as both of these adjustments bring the CoG closer to the shaft (and shaft plane, which could be its own post topic).

For what it's worth, I'm actually interested to try even smaller iron heads to drop the CoG gap even more. I'd also love a ~280cc "driver" head—something like an M2 fairway head at 10.5º and a 55º lie angle would be unbelievably awesome, and it would feel like batting practice to me.

Edited by pearsonified, 12 October 2017 - 04:01 PM.

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#52 BenHoganSlam1953

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 04:34 PM

I keep it simple - sweet spot for all my irons, wedges and fairway woods is just inside of center, while for my driver it is the centre - this gives me both distance and control ...
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#53 Jasonic

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 04:36 PM

View PostOver it, on 12 October 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

View PostJasonic, on 12 October 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

View PostOver it, on 12 October 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

View Postajax5184, on 12 October 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

Sometimes when I get into a bout of chipping shanks, the only thing that I can do to get out of the funk is line up the hosel with the ball and actually swing like I am trying to hit the hosel. It always works, but I have never known why. Is this along the same lines of what you are talking about feeling?

Yes because when you try to do this you probably feel you are swinging the hosel but you are actual feeling the COG of the club,
you can't actually feel the hosel because it is out of plane with the cog.

The problem most people have is they swing the clubhead, imo you need to feel like it's just a tiny weight on the end of a shaft.  The more you have relaxed arms and swing from your pivot the more you will be able to feel the pull of the cog and be able to bring it to the center of the ball


If that were true then why would he shank it in the first place?

Bad mechanics, bad mental picture, tightness, many many things.

As for hitting all over the face on purpose look up the teachings of adam young. His book the practice manual claims that learning the skills of doing that, not mechanics, speed up learning incredibly. It's a great theory and works.

Thanks Jasonic I knew the answer but wanted Mac to answer that question.

Oh sorry, just trying to help!

Edited by Jasonic, 12 October 2017 - 04:37 PM.

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#54 PivotDrivenSwing

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 04:57 PM

Should this be the feel on the downswing to hit with the sweetspot ? https://www.youtube....h?v=r5LEelOEbQg

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#55 Over it

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:04 PM

View Postpearsonified, on 12 October 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

Despite some commenters dropping poop emojis on everything, this is a great thread.

OP spent some time focusing on the distance of the CoG to shaft, and this is a facet of club geometry that few players truly understand and/or use to their advantage.

Tons of people who end up playing golf already have a natural "feel" for hitting with the barrel of a baseball bat. I've mentioned this in a different thread, but I'll repeat it here: Golf is a lot like baseball, but with an angled attachment off the barrel that screws with your natural hit instincts.

IMO, the degree to which you have to fight (or perhaps re-train) your hitting intuition for golf can be quantified somewhat by the distance of the shaft to the CoG.

I've learned I am better with any club if the CoG is closer to the shaft. So for example, if you gave me a monstrous SGI iron with the sweet spot 1.75" away from the shaft, I would hit it worse than an iron with the sweet spot 1" away from the shaft.

Quick side note: IMO, OP made a much better swing and had superior impact with the Hogan iron (with the lower shaft-to-CoG distance). I don't think this was a coincidence.

In other words, the farther away the CoG is from the shaft, the more detached the point of impact becomes from where our natural hit instincts want it to be (which would be very near the shaft—the object we are actually swinging).

**********

I finally realized the importance of CoG placement/distance when I was hitting a PSP "Little One" training club a while back. I was in the middle of a ball striking slump, and in an attempt to break free, I knocked around a few balls with the PSP 7-iron.

The results were remarkable.

I immediately went from "good god, where is the sweet spot?" with my 7-iron to "holy crap, I wish I could hit my 7-iron anywhere near that well!" with the PSP 7-iron.

For me, the secret sauce wasn't in the gimmickry of the PSP training club—it was simply the fact that the CoG is only about 0.5" away from the shaft.

As a result, even though the head on the PSP is tiny, I can absolutely crush it because it allows me to tap into my natural hit instincts and "swing it like a dowel," as OP said earlier in this thread.

Ultimately, I understand what OP is saying, and I think on a very basic level, his premise is correct.

In my case, my brain has a very difficult time perceiving the shaft + club head as a single unit (a dowel), and this leads to a fork in the road. I must either:
  • Re-train my brain to perceive the shaft + club head as a single unit, or
  • Adjust my equipment to tap into my natural hit instincts as much as possible.
The first possibility may be suitable for many players—they can simply start "seeing" the club in a different way, and this will be enough to produce positive results.

I'm intrigued by the second approach. For me, the answer has been to use smaller iron heads and flatter lie angles, as both of these adjustments bring the CoG closer to the shaft (and shaft plane, which could be its own post topic).

For what it's worth, I'm actually interested to try even smaller iron heads to drop the CoG gap even more. I'd also love a ~280cc "driver" head—something like an M2 fairway head at 10.5º and a 55º lie angle would be unbelievably awesome, and it would feel like batting practice to me.



Except the cog of the club head isn't just in the horizontal dimension i.e. closer to the shaft, it is 3d, how vertical it is and how far back from the club face it is. So you wouldn't know exactly where it is just picking up a club regardless if the head is smaller or larger, in other words a larger head could have the cog in a perfect place for a certain golfer and not so for another golfer same thing for a smaller club head.

It isn't ...oh the cog is closer to the shaft and my club head is smaller so I'm optimized.... not even close!  No one is so good they can tell you exactly where the cog is in a certain club head just by "feeling it".  You can speak for what you think is good for you but it doesn't make it the answer for everyone.



That's why I don't buy the o.p's "scientific test". When you're good you can use anything and put a mark in the middle of the club face and more or less you're probably going to cover some part of the cog that  doesn't mean one can feel the cog...it's ridiculous to even suggest that.


Not only that but there's more then just the club heads cog, there's the whole clubs cog etc!

Edited by Over it, 12 October 2017 - 05:14 PM.


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#56 Macogardy

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:18 PM

View PostOver it, on 12 October 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

View PostOver it, on 12 October 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

The story how I figured this out was about 12 years ago I was struggling hitting the ball on the toe.  So I bought some impact tape and tried getting closer to the ball,  I tried choking up I tried different clubs.  Everyone I hit it on the toe by maybe a 1/2"

So I thought like a previous poster mentioned I'm gonna try to hit it on the hosel  I'm gonna fire the hosel directly into the ball and guess what I hit it dead solid.  

Then I stood farther and closer from the ball and repeated the good contact.  Later I learned that because It was working because the face Cog was laying on the same plane as the hosel at the top of the swing, it's the main reason having a clubface on plane is important at the top.  But once I got it in my head that I could just swing that cog and focus on that I started hitting the sweetspot much more consistent .



You do know that most ams. lead the sweet spot with the hosel in the way .... right?  Thus all the open face problems.

That's not why they have open face all pros lead with the hosel in the first foot of the swing.  

And have open face problems because the face is way open to the pivot they control the face with there hands instead of letting the turning body control the rare of rotation.  You must be in the camp that thinks Hogan had no supination in his swing. With him rotating the lead arm even more in the D.S. how on earth did he get the face on the ball... just pivot like crazy with the hosel leading and expect that to just square it up enough to hit his fade.

Just think how an extremely open face can square up enough to get a power fade ... I'll tell you it ain't from the pivot alone.


Yeah I'm not talking about the first foot of the swing.  Plus if you  rotated your lead arm to get the club on the so called plane the face is open and somewhere you have to re-rotate it to square the face up or you lead the sweet spot with the hosel in the way too long.  No amount of pivot is going to fix that!

You must think that Hogan used his pivot alone to square up his wide open face without any supination. Hogan rotated his lead arm more on the D.S. to open his face more I seriously doubt he used his pivot to square that up, he had to supinate his forearm and that gave him a more square face/less open face and his pivot helped to not over rotate the club face.

I guess you haven't seen graphs of tour players and what their lead arms and wrists are doing.

I mistyped I meant first foot of downswing the hosel would be inline with sweetspot on the plane.  



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#57 Over it

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:21 PM

Club head designers can manipulate the cog for what they want it to do hopefully for golfers but the over riding factor is we are still human and can screw it all up.

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#58 Macogardy

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:26 PM

View PostRange Rodent, on 12 October 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

View Postpearsonified, on 12 October 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

Despite some commenters dropping poop emojis on everything, this is a great thread.

OP spent some time focusing on the distance of the CoG to shaft, and this is a facet of club geometry that few players truly understand and/or use to their advantage.

Tons of people who end up playing golf already have a natural "feel" for hitting with the barrel of a baseball bat. I've mentioned this in a different thread, but I'll repeat it here: Golf is a lot like baseball, but with an angled attachment off the barrel that screws with your natural hit instincts.

IMO, the degree to which you have to fight (or perhaps re-train) your hitting intuition for golf can be quantified somewhat by the distance of the shaft to the CoG.

I've learned I am better with any club if the CoG is closer to the shaft. So for example, if you gave me a monstrous SGI iron with the sweet spot 1.75" away from the shaft, I would hit it worse than an iron with the sweet spot 1" away from the shaft.

Quick side note: IMO, OP made a much better swing and had superior impact with the Hogan iron (with the lower shaft-to-CoG distance). I don't think this was a coincidence.

In other words, the farther away the CoG is from the shaft, the more detached the point of impact becomes from where our natural hit instincts want it to be (which would be very near the shaft—the object we are actually swinging).

**********

I finally realized the importance of CoG placement/distance when I was hitting a PSP "Little One" training club a while back. I was in the middle of a ball striking slump, and in an attempt to break free, I knocked around a few balls with the PSP 7-iron.

The results were remarkable.

I immediately went from "good god, where is the sweet spot?" with my 7-iron to "holy crap, I wish I could hit my 7-iron anywhere near that well!" with the PSP 7-iron.

For me, the secret sauce wasn't in the gimmickry of the PSP training club—it was simply the fact that the CoG is only about 0.5" away from the shaft.

As a result, even though the head on the PSP is tiny, I can absolutely crush it because it allows me to tap into my natural hit instincts and "swing it like a dowel," as OP said earlier in this thread.

Ultimately, I understand what OP is saying, and I think on a very basic level, his premise is correct.

In my case, my brain has a very difficult time perceiving the shaft + club head as a single unit (a dowel), and this leads to a fork in the road. I must either:
  • Re-train my brain to perceive the shaft + club head as a single unit, or
  • Adjust my equipment to tap into my natural hit instincts as much as possible.
The first possibility may be suitable for many players—they can simply start "seeing" the club in a different way, and this will be enough to produce positive results.

I'm intrigued by the second approach. For me, the answer has been to use smaller iron heads and flatter lie angles, as both of these adjustments bring the CoG closer to the shaft (and shaft plane, which could be its own post topic).

For what it's worth, I'm actually interested to try even smaller iron heads to drop the CoG gap even more. I'd also love a ~280cc "driver" head—something like an M2 fairway head at 10.5 and a 55 lie angle would be unbelievably awesome, and it would feel like batting practice to me.

Closer the CoG is to the hosel, the higher chance to hit the hosel which is why GI irons have the sweet spot farther away as high caps would shank everything.

Why does flatter lie angles bring the CoG closer to the shaft ?

Your right cog farther from hosel gives you more space to miss the sweetspot without total disaster.  

I'm Glad someone is in agreement with me even on a basic level :)

Swinging the dowel is good imagery
You still have to square the face though that's a whole different issue.  

Maybe the imagery should be swinging a yardstick




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#59 Tero Partanen

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:27 PM

Does this mean, in a simplified way, that what we feel (until the last parts of the downswing, where there's anyway no time left for our brain to change anything) as the club head / heavy part of the club that transmits itself through sensations from hands and arms, is in fact the sweet spot? And that leading with the hosel is in fact not true and that it's exactly what we need to be feeling and need to be delivering at the ball (or through the ball) ?

What I've found is that intentionally driving that heavy part of the club at the ball often times results in a sweet spot strike. And when I've tried to avoid the hosel/shanking and attempted to hit "outside" the heavy part, I've actually toed it.

The explanation of hosel and sweetspot planes being in line during the more conscious parts of the swing make sense. If they're the same, how are you even supposed to be able to "steer" the last milliseconds and turn the sweetspot to the ball as it gradually separates itself from the hosel plane? Impossible. I've also found that intentionally trying to hit the hosel at the ball is really really difficult...

Might the OP be onto something here?

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#60 Macogardy

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 06:28 PM

Tero yes I think your picking up what I'm laying down

Think about the argument posed by others is that , nah you or pros are just using your hand eye coordination to bring the center of the clubface to the ball.  

I'm saying I can't even see the clubhead throughout my swing I can only see the ball

When you swing a ping pong paddle you don't need to see it you feel where it is you can feel the cog

When you throw a ball you feel the cog and you throw it towards your target.  

A golf club is the same you feel the cog in transition and you swing it at the ball the shaft and the hosel and the toe only matter for loft and direction but not for bringing the cog to the ball

Edited by Macogardy, 12 October 2017 - 06:30 PM.


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