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Backstopping needs to be stopped


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#61 cxx

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:38 AM

View Postfillwelix, on 10 October 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

View Postcxx, on 10 October 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

View Postfillwelix, on 10 October 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

This is such a non issue, it simply doesn't happen that often. TV is likely to show when it does happen because it's something different than "they chipped a ball that went past the hole" which MIGHT make it seem more frequent.

It does happen regularly. The announcers point it out when it is blatant. You don't count the number of times that the ball at rest is hit, but by the number of times that the player fails to mark and leaves the ball in a position to help the player making the shot.

But by that logic, the player who’s ball is at rest is intentionally helping his competitor, which IS THE POINT


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#62 fillwelix

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:42 AM

View Postcxx, on 10 October 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

View Postfillwelix, on 10 October 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

View Postcxx, on 10 October 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

View Postfillwelix, on 10 October 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

This is such a non issue, it simply doesn't happen that often. TV is likely to show when it does happen because it's something different than "they chipped a ball that went past the hole" which MIGHT make it seem more frequent.

It does happen regularly. The announcers point it out when it is blatant. You don't count the number of times that the ball at rest is hit, but by the number of times that the player fails to mark and leaves the ball in a position to help the player making the shot.

But by that logic, the player who’s ball is at rest is intentionally helping his competitor, which IS THE POINT

Why would the player who's ball is at rest WANT to help their competitor?
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#63 rangersgoalie

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:42 AM

i was asked countless times by anplaying partner if I wanted them to "leave it there".
Never gave it much thought tbh, but I usually said go ahead and mark it.  I didn't want the distraction.

I like to play quickly, and I know I hit shots with a ball up there many times, simply out of impatience though.

1) I believe the practice should be addressed.  Simply tell the players they can't leave their ball in place
In
Order to assist another player.  No big rule change, just notify its not allowed.

2) for the most part, imo it's not a conspiracy, just a "courtesy" out of hand in most cases.

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#64 bladehunter

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:43 AM

View Postcxx, on 10 October 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 10 October 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

lol....   Im going to have to go work , dont have time to get to fashion now... maybe at lunch time!......  But i do think everyone should wear shirts cut like Tiger and Duval wore circa 2000....  since you mentoned it ! :taunt:

Maybe you've forgotten what a fat old man looks like in those shirts.  Ridiculous.


id argue the same result happens regardless of the cut...lol
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#65 cxx

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:45 AM

View Postfillwelix, on 10 October 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

View Postcxx, on 10 October 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

View Postfillwelix, on 10 October 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

View Postcxx, on 10 October 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

View Postfillwelix, on 10 October 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

This is such a non issue, it simply doesn't happen that often. TV is likely to show when it does happen because it's something different than "they chipped a ball that went past the hole" which MIGHT make it seem more frequent.

It does happen regularly. The announcers point it out when it is blatant. You don't count the number of times that the ball at rest is hit, but by the number of times that the player fails to mark and leaves the ball in a position to help the player making the shot.

But by that logic, the player who’s ball is at rest is intentionally helping his competitor, which IS THE POINT

Why would the player who's ball is at rest WANT to help their competitor?

Things like this happen in all kinds of competitive environments. Competitors conspire to help each other so they both have an advantage over the rest of the competitors. Later they'll fight it out between themselves.


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#66 gioguy21

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:45 AM

the best argument i've seen to the backstopping is this -- if they're so good to intentionally hit a ball on the green, why not just aim for the hole and dunk it?

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#67 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:47 AM

View Postrangersgoalie, on 10 October 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

i was asked countless times by anplaying partner if I wanted them to "leave it there".
Never gave it much thought tbh, but I usually said go ahead and mark it.  I didn't want the distraction.

I like to play quickly, and I know I hit shots with a ball up there many times, simply out of impatience though.

1) I believe the practice should be addressed.  Simply tell the players they can't leave their ball in place
In
Order to assist another player.  No big rule change, just notify its not allowed.


Rangers, I've asked twice but no one has offered an answer or opinion.

How close to the green does a player have to be where a ball in the green would be required to be marked?  That's the only issue I see, is how do you regulate it.
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#68 fillwelix

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:48 AM

View Postcxx, on 10 October 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

View Postfillwelix, on 10 October 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:



Why would the player who's ball is at rest WANT to help their competitor?

Things like this happen in all kinds of competitive environments. Competitors conspire to help each other so they both have an advantage over the rest of the competitors. Later they'll fight it out between themselves.

Yeah...that's definitely not what's going on here
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#69 cxx

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:51 AM

View Postrangersgoalie, on 10 October 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

i was asked countless times by anplaying partner if I wanted them to "leave it there".
Never gave it much thought tbh, but I usually said go ahead and mark it.  I didn't want the distraction.

I like to play quickly, and I know I hit shots with a ball up there many times, simply out of impatience though.

1) I believe the practice should be addressed.  Simply tell the players they can't leave their ball in place
In
Order to assist another player.  No big rule change, just notify its not allowed.

2) for the most part, imo it's not a conspiracy, just a "courtesy" out of hand in most cases.

That does sound funny.  I usually ask if my ball bothers them where it is if I'm inclined not to mark it.

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#70 cvhookem63

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:56 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 10 October 2017 - 07:03 AM, said:

Such a non issue.  Literally dumber than talking about what pants Ian poulter  is wearihg .... no way on the planet anyone is hitting a ball on the green on purpose.  Why not just hole it if this is so ?

Since you brought it up...Ian Poulter's pants are terrible. How vain do you have to be to wear your own (defunct) brand logo printed on the front of both pant legs?

On the issue at hand: I don't see how Finau can be at fault here. If there is no collusion between the two, and the other player is in no rush to mark their ball, he should 100% go ahead and hit with the minute chance that the ball at rest could give him a slight advantage.

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#71 From_Parts_Unknown

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:01 AM

I'm so glad this atrocity is coming to light.  Backstopping is becoming an epidemic in golf.  Sure, it doesn't happen that often during a PGA Tour season, but where it's really bad is in 4-man Scrambles.  Every Monday I see another team CHEAT by not marking their balls before their teammate hits his/her shot, thus creating a backstop.  It's time to get serious people.  We need to crack down on these cheaters.  Just think if they are able to use that backstop to hit their shot closer to the hole!  If they have any string left, it basically makes the shot good.  Turrible Charles.  

What's even worse is if the backstop backfires (see what I did there?), and the ball careens off the green, they can use a mulligan to replay the shot and take advantage of the backstop again.  Or what if they were to win a closest to the hole using their teammates ball as a backstop.  The madness has to cease.  If we can't get a rule in place by the USGA, then we at least need to establish a local rule at every club for 4-man scrambles.

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#72 CStephenson17

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:01 AM

View Posttannyhoban, on 10 October 2017 - 05:41 AM, said:

You want them to play faster, right?

This is exactly what I came here to do. Thanks!

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#73 cvhookem63

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:03 AM

View PostFrom_Parts_Unknown, on 10 October 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

I'm so glad this atrocity is coming to light.  Backstopping is becoming an epidemic in golf.  Sure, it doesn't happen that often during a PGA Tour season, but where it's really bad is in 4-man Scrambles.  Every Monday I see another team CHEAT by not marking their balls before their teammate hits his/her shot, thus creating a backstop.  It's time to get serious people.  We need to crack down on these cheaters.  Just think if they are able to use that backstop to hit their shot closer to the hole!  If they have any string left, it basically makes the shot good.  Turrible Charles.  

What's even worse is if the backstop backfires (see what I did there?), and the ball careens off the green, they can use a mulligan to replay the shot and take advantage of the backstop again.  Or what if they were to win a closest to the hole using their teammates ball as a backstop.  The madness has to cease.  If we can't get a rule in place by the USGA, then we at least need to establish a local rule at every club for 4-man scrambles.

I'm not sure 4 man scrambles are the driving factor for USGA rule adjustments, but I could be wrong. I'm sure if they did make a rule adjustment all of those 4 man scramble teams would definitely A) actually know the rule exists and B) abide by the rule with nobody watching every hole to enforce it.

Edited by cvhookem63, 10 October 2017 - 09:05 AM.

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#74 gioguy21

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:04 AM

View PostFrom_Parts_Unknown, on 10 October 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

I'm so glad this atrocity is coming to light.  Backstopping is becoming an epidemic in golf.  Sure, it doesn't happen that often during a PGA Tour season, but where it's really bad is in 4-man Scrambles.  Every Monday I see another team CHEAT by not marking their balls before their teammate hits his/her shot, thus creating a backstop.  It's time to get serious people.  We need to crack down on these cheaters.  Just think if they are able to use that backstop to hit their shot closer to the hole!  If they have any string left, it basically makes the shot good.  Turrible Charles.  

What's even worse is if the backstop backfires (see what I did there?), and the ball careens off the green, they can use a mulligan to replay the shot and take advantage of the backstop again.  Or what if they were to win a closest to the hole using their teammates ball as a backstop.  The madness has to cease.  If we can't get a rule in place by the USGA, then we at least need to establish a local rule at every club for 4-man scrambles.
lol you should play less scrambles -- you know, and play real golf.

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#75 Golfingfanatic

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:09 AM

If it is not about actually hitting the ball, then you could argue there's a possible backstop advantage on every hole in every tournament for every shot into the green with a ball relatively close to the pin. Doesn't matter if it is 10,50,100 or 200 yards.

Edited by Golfingfanatic, 10 October 2017 - 09:10 AM.

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#76 BrianMcG

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:10 AM

I think we should stop marking the balls all together. Then Dave Pelz could come out with a new "Chipper" book and the club industry would be resurrected with all new $500 chippers.

Edited by BrianMcG, 10 October 2017 - 09:10 AM.


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#77 OldTomMorris

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:10 AM

View Postjj9000, on 10 October 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Last weekend, one of my playing partners was in the bunker raking up his mess.  His shot out of the sand came to rest 4 feet from the hole.

Rather than wait another several minutes, I had the opportunity to chip from the green collar up to the hole while he was raking.

His ball was between my ball and the hole, with about 25 feet from me to the hole.

I chipped up and hit his ball.

My ball shot straight left (hole is on the right) and came to rest about 10 feet from the hole.  His ball barely moved.

If my ball doesn't hit his, it comes close to going in, or its a tap-in.  Instead, I had a 10 footer for Par (which I missed).

Or, I could have waited for him to finish up what he was doing in the bunker, cleaning up clubs, cleaning up shoes, then marking the ball.  All while I was standing there ready to play.

You could have marked it, played your shot and then replaced after your shot.

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#78 VNutz

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:11 AM

They're all doing it wrong. I aim for my opponents ball in the fairway, extra 6 yards. :beach:

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#79 fillwelix

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:18 AM

View PostGolfingfanatic, on 10 October 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

If it is not about actually hitting the ball, then you could argue there's a possible backstop advantage on every hole in every tournament for every shot into the green with a ball relatively close to the pin. Doesn't matter if it is 10,50,100 or 200 yards.

Great point. They actually already make the distinction of when you have to mark the ball, and its once everyone is on the green, so looks like the issue has already been addressed by the rules

Edited by fillwelix, 10 October 2017 - 09:18 AM.

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#80 krtgolfing

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:23 AM

Zero issue with JTs comments. There is no rule in the book that says what he did was illegal. This is the first time I have ever heard of "backstopping".

Say one person is 10 yards short of the green and waiting close to his ball but not in the way of his competition who is getting ready to hit his shot 200 yards away. Should he have to wait the 3-4 minutes for this player to mark his ball assuming it is not in direct line of the hole? Golf is already slow enough.

Edited by krtgolfing, 10 October 2017 - 09:24 AM.

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#81 Dpavs

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:25 AM

View PostVNutz, on 10 October 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

They're all doing it wrong. I aim for my opponents ball in the fairway, extra 6 yards. :beach:

Do you also go for the green-side of their ball to get that extra run out....cuz that's what I do.

Edited by Dpavs, 10 October 2017 - 09:26 AM.


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#82 OldTomMorris

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:32 AM

View Postkrtgolfing, on 10 October 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

Zero issue with JTs comments. There is no rule in the book that says what he did was illegal. This is the first time I have ever heard of "backstopping".

Say one person is 10 yards short of the green and waiting close to his ball but not in the way of his competition who is getting ready to hit his shot 200 yards away. Should he have to wait the 3-4 minutes for this player to mark his ball assuming it is not in direct line of the hole? Golf is already slow enough.

No he shouldn't wait, its an option to mark the ball and replace it.

This used to happen, a long hitter is waiting to go for a par 5 in two, the short hitter proceeds to his layup. The long hitter hits it reasonably close then the short hitter wants to play his pitch but the ball is in his line. Short hitter can mark the ball, play his shot and replace it while the long hitter catches up.

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#83 rangersgoalie

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:35 AM

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 10 October 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

View Postrangersgoalie, on 10 October 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

i was asked countless times by anplaying partner if I wanted them to "leave it there".
Never gave it much thought tbh, but I usually said go ahead and mark it.  I didn't want the distraction.

I like to play quickly, and I know I hit shots with a ball up there many times, simply out of impatience though.

1) I believe the practice should be addressed.  Simply tell the players they can't leave their ball in place
In
Order to assist another player.  No big rule change, just notify its not allowed.


Rangers, I've asked twice but no one has offered an answer or opinion.

How close to the green does a player have to be where a ball in the green would be required to be marked?  That's the only issue I see, is how do you regulate it.

Had the same conversation last night.  Hard to legislate, especially intent.
Not sure the answer.

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#84 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:40 AM

View Postrangersgoalie, on 10 October 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 10 October 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

View Postrangersgoalie, on 10 October 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

i was asked countless times by anplaying partner if I wanted them to "leave it there".
Never gave it much thought tbh, but I usually said go ahead and mark it.  I didn't want the distraction.

I like to play quickly, and I know I hit shots with a ball up there many times, simply out of impatience though.

1) I believe the practice should be addressed.  Simply tell the players they can't leave their ball in place
In
Order to assist another player.  No big rule change, just notify its not allowed.


Rangers, I've asked twice but no one has offered an answer or opinion.

How close to the green does a player have to be where a ball in the green would be required to be marked?  That's the only issue I see, is how do you regulate it.

Had the same conversation last night.  Hard to legislate, especially intent.
Not sure the answer.

That's been my same thought. A really tough issue to make a rule for.

It appears to  be one of those unspoken, wink-wink kind of deals that shouldn't be talked about. When it does get brought to the forefront of a conversation, then it starts to become a issue.
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#85 Ferguson

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:40 AM

View PostBrianMcG, on 10 October 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

I think we should stop marking the balls all together. Then Dave Pelz could come out with a new "Chipper" book and the club industry would be resurrected with all new $500 chippers.

BRING BACK THE STYMIE!


http://www.ruleshistory.com/green.html



The Stymie
A stymie was possible only in matches involving one ball per side.  On the putting green, if two players' balls were more than six inches apart, there was no provision for the ball nearer the hole to be lifted.   If that ball lay directly in the way to the hole of the ball to be played then the player was 'stymied.'
He could try to play around or over the interfering ball, but if the nearer ball was struck, no penalty ensued. However, the opponent had the option of playing the ball as it lay or replacing it.   If the nearer ball had been knocked into the hole the opponent was considered to have holed out with his previous stroke.


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#86 From_Parts_Unknown

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:41 AM

While we are at it, can we fix some other advantages to help protect the field?  For example, I hate when I am in the last group of a tournament, which I usually am, we get to the par threes and the tee boxes are just beat to ship.  There is absolutely no good level spot for me to tee up a ball, and it messes with my transition.  It's a complete disadvantage for me to have to work around all those divots.  I say that golf courses should have to re-sod the tee box after every shot.  In fact, I'm going to start calling it backsodding.  

Also, I believe that when player A is in player B's line on the putting surface, player A should have to turn around while player B putts.  Why should player A get a free read?  This also goes for 4-man scrambles... Cheaters!

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#87 OldTomMorris

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:46 AM

View PostFrom_Parts_Unknown, on 10 October 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

For example, I hate when I am in the last group of a tournament, which I usually am, we get to the par threes and the tee boxes are just beat to ship.  There is absolutely no good level spot for me to tee up a ball, and it messes with my transition.  It's a complete disadvantage for me to have to work around all those divots.

There is already a provision for that though, you can put the ball on a tee peg and you are given 2-club lengths from between the markers but not nearer the hole.

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#88 HoosierMizuno

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:49 AM

View Postslimeone, on 10 October 2017 - 03:59 AM, said:

If you are skilled enough to deliberately hit another player's ball from a bunker, why not just hole out? The hole is a bigger target. Also why would players collude on this? If your ball gets knocked you could end up with a much worse putt or even get bumped off the green.


how this has so many 'likes' i can't understand. no player is aiming at the ball, its just that the additional ball provides a backstop if you don't hit the hole. how is this that hard to understand. not to mention that if the ball on the green is hit you get to put it back.

if a player short sides himself and has a downhill chip to the pin, you can't tell me its not a slight advantage to have a ball sitting behind and near the cup on the off chance you miss the hole and then have another chance to have the ball on the green stop your chip.
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#89 MrJones

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:49 AM

It's all about intent. Did I leave my ball there because I didn't have time to mark it or did I leave my ball there is the small chance that it might help you stop your ball?

I've played in casual rounds where someone was going to mark a ball and another player said "leave it there" knowing it could possibly assist them.
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#90 HoosierMizuno

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:51 AM

View Postgioguy21, on 10 October 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

the best argument i've seen to the backstopping is this -- if they're so good to intentionally hit a ball on the green, why not just aim for the hole and dunk it?

who said they are trying to hit the ball? maybe they are trying to hole the shot but using the ball as insurance if they are slightly offline. pretty simple concept i would think. imagine playing in a foursome and have all three other players leave their balls 2 feet behind the hole while you hit your short sided downhill chip. you don't think thats a slight advantage?

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