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Backstopping needs to be stopped


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#331 Valtiel

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 12:51 AM

View PostShilgy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:09 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 12 October 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

is this thread still going?  literally about nothing...


OMG, it's the Seinfeld thread. No soup for you! :)

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Edited by Valtiel, 13 October 2017 - 12:52 AM.

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#332 Stuart G.

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 03:34 AM

View Postyouraway2, on 12 October 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

]It's already in the Rules and the Rules don't say they can intentionally leave a ball in position to assist.  If fact it clearly says the opposite, a player who believes his ball or another players ball might assist, they should mark their ball or have another ball marked. The Rules even mention that if it is obvious this is occurring, a Referee should get involved.  

No, it doesn't say "should", it's says the player "may" have the ball lifted.  The rules leave the choice completely in the hands of the players.  it doesn't encourage or discourage any specific choice in the matter.

And the only concern that they say the referee should be involved in is to determine if any agreements were made ahead of time between players to leave the ball in place.

Edited by Stuart G., 13 October 2017 - 03:35 AM.


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#333 Roadking2003

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:02 AM

View Postyouraway2, on 12 October 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

I realize many of you don't understand, but it's a good rule to not allow one players ball to intentionally provide possible assistance to the movement of another players ball.


Actually, we do understand.  And there is nothing wrong with the rule.  Most of us just think this is not an issue worthy of addressing.

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#334 Roadking2003

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:09 AM

View PostStuart G., on 13 October 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

View Postyouraway2, on 12 October 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

]It's already in the Rules and the Rules don't say they can intentionally leave a ball in position to assist.  If fact it clearly says the opposite, a player who believes his ball or another players ball might assist, they should mark their ball or have another ball marked. The Rules even mention that if it is obvious this is occurring, a Referee should get involved.  

No, it doesn't say "should", it's says the player "may" have the ball lifted.  The rules leave the choice completely in the hands of the players.  it doesn't encourage or discourage any specific choice in the matter.

And the only concern that they say the referee should be involved in is to determine if any agreements were made ahead of time between players to leave the ball in place.

I watch PGA Tour golf every week and have never seen anyone violate this rule.   Anybody else?

22-1. Ball Assisting Play

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may:

a. Lift the ball if it is his ball; or

b. Have any other ball lifted.

A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21).

In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.

In stroke play, if the Committee determines that competitors have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any competitor, they are disqualified.

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#335 2putttom

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:53 AM

View PostShilgy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:09 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 12 October 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

is this thread still going?  literally about nothing...


OMG, it's the Seinfeld thread. No soup for you! :)
:cheesy:  I'm with him Shig. The initial shock value has worn off. Kinda like that chic I picked up at a bar at closing time....... :fie:

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#336 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 10:06 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 13 October 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 13 October 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

View Postyouraway2, on 12 October 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

]It's already in the Rules and the Rules don't say they can intentionally leave a ball in position to assist.  If fact it clearly says the opposite, a player who believes his ball or another players ball might assist, they should mark their ball or have another ball marked. The Rules even mention that if it is obvious this is occurring, a Referee should get involved.  

No, it doesn't say "should", it's says the player "may" have the ball lifted.  The rules leave the choice completely in the hands of the players.  it doesn't encourage or discourage any specific choice in the matter.

And the only concern that they say the referee should be involved in is to determine if any agreements were made ahead of time between players to leave the ball in place.

I watch PGA Tour golf every week and have never seen anyone violate this rule.   Anybody else?

22-1. Ball Assisting Play

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may:

a. Lift the ball if it is his ball; or

b. Have any other ball lifted.

A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21).

In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.

In stroke play, if the Committee determines that competitors have agreed not to lift a ball that might assist any competitor, they are disqualified.

Never that I can recall. And I don't expect to see it violated in the future.
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#337 drn92

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 10:07 AM

View Postyouraway2, on 12 October 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

View Posthybrid25, on 12 October 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 October 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

View Postyouraway2, on 12 October 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 12 October 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

It's not like it happens all that often.
Again today in Italy on the European Tour.  No the ball didn't make contact, but the player was obviously using the other players ball as a backstop. Can't remember the amateur's name, but the other player was standing within a few yards, edge of green, and stood there before and while the player played their shot without marking his ball that could obviously "assist" the play of the amateur. It's not just on the PGA Tour, it's on the European Tour as well.

I realize many of you don't understand, but it's a good rule to not allow one players ball to intentionally provide possible assistance to the movement of another players ball.

Found players name; Lorenzo Scalise, I believe the 18th hole.

Take it up with the guys who make the Rules. You can't blame the players for doing exactly what the Rules say they can do.
This^

Take it up with the guys who make the Rules. You can't blame the players for doing exactly what the Rules say they can do.
It's already in the Rules and the Rules don't say they can intentionally leave a ball in position to assist.  If fact it clearly says the opposite, a player who believes his ball or another players ball might assist, they should mark their ball or have another ball marked. The Rules even mention that if it is obvious this is occurring, a Referee should get involved.  The Committee is where enforcement is lacking. But the bottom line is players are exploiting the Rule by not "agreeing" verbally to leave a ball in place to assist another player. It has been mentioned by PGA players that this practice is ongoing, sort of agreed to before hand.  

I think I'm wasting my time here -

There is a difference between “should” and “must.”  

And it seems people understand the argument but do not agree with you on its importance. I personally do not think it is a big deal. Plus it seems difficult to write a rule that makes sense to implement.

drn92

Edited by drn92, 13 October 2017 - 10:07 AM.


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#338 Shilgy

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 10:19 AM

View Post2putttom, on 13 October 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 12 October 2017 - 11:09 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 12 October 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

is this thread still going?  literally about nothing...


OMG, it's the Seinfeld thread. No soup for you! :)
:cheesy:  I'm with him Shig. The initial shock value has worn off. Kinda like that chic I picked up at a bar at closing time....... :fie:
Nah, the shock from her doesn't happen until morning when the beer goggles come off. :drinks:
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#339 BNGL

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 12:48 PM

You know Leif Olson colluded with a playing partner for a hole in one and a new BMW, had his playing partner hit up on the green and Leif spun his ball back into it and into the cup....2009 Canadian Open

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#340 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:11 PM

The Rules also say a player MAY mark or remark his ball on the putting green before putting. And that a player MAY take relief from certain immovable obstructions.

Are you lot proposing that a Referee should jump in and penalize every player who taps in an 18" putt without remarking it? Or maybe a DQ for going ahead of hitting off the cart path instead of taking the relief the Rules say he MAY utilize?

After all, you're claiming that anything which MAY be done must be done in order to protect the integrity of the game.

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#341 Pepperturbo

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 03:26 PM

The better a person is with short clubs, the more likely of hitting a ball that is unmarked and reasonably close to the cup.  I've done it a few times.  Each time the ball was about 3-4' from the cup.  Never thought for a moment I would hit any of them, when I was aiming for the cup. :P  Pretty sure tour guys and better amateurs feel the same.

So, to make something of it as if purposely planned someone has too much time on their hands and probably should put that to use practicing from bunkers. :beach:
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#342 handicap122003

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 02:32 PM

It cost Michelson some scratch.    Lol.   But when I play in a scramble I always tell people on my team did not mark your ball if I’m going out of the sand or something like that

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#343 smeech8000

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 07:56 AM

View Posthandicap122003, on 15 October 2017 - 02:32 PM, said:

It cost Michelson some scratch. Lol.   But when I play in a scramble I always tell people on my team did not mark your ball if I’m going out of the sand or something like that

In that case, please refer to the Scramble section of the rules.

...

...

Wait, what?
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#344 North Butte

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 08:01 AM

View Postsmeech8000, on 16 October 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

View Posthandicap122003, on 15 October 2017 - 02:32 PM, said:

It cost Michelson some scratch. Lol.   But when I play in a scramble I always tell people on my team did not mark your ball if I’m going out of the sand or something like that

In that case, please refer to the Scramble section of the rules.

...

...

Wait, what?

I'll bet the typical club professional would love to strangle the next foursome to come into his office whinging about how some other team in a scramble was cheating or breaking this or that rule. The whole point of a scramble is to NOT play remotely by the Rules of Golf. How are you supposed to parse the finer details of marking or dropping or any other picky little thing when you're not even hitting your ball from where your last shot ended up?
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#345 hybrid25

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 08:59 AM

PGA, please stop allowing backstopping or I won't watch anymore! It's completely ruining the tournaments, everybody is aiming at opponents ball instead of the hole.
Signed,
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#346 Hit em good

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Posted 18 October 2017 - 01:56 PM

View Postslimeone, on 10 October 2017 - 03:59 AM, said:

If you are skilled enough to deliberately hit another player's ball from a bunker, why not just hole out? The hole is a bigger target. Also why would players collude on this? If your ball gets knocked you could end up with a much worse putt or even get bumped off the green.

I agree.  He just got lucky.  The chances of hitting that target out of a plugged lie are very low.  This should be a non-story.
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#347 youraway2

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Posted 18 October 2017 - 03:12 PM

View PostStuart G., on 13 October 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

View Postyouraway2, on 12 October 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

]It's already in the Rules and the Rules don't say they can intentionally leave a ball in position to assist.  If fact it clearly says the opposite, a player who believes his ball or another players ball might assist, they should mark their ball or have another ball marked. The Rules even mention that if it is obvious this is occurring, a Referee should get involved.  

No, it doesn't say "should", it's says the player "may" have the ball lifted.  The rules leave the choice completely in the hands of the players.  it doesn't encourage or discourage any specific choice in the matter.

And the only concern that they say the referee should be involved in is to determine if any agreements were made ahead of time between players to leave the ball in place.

22/7


Ball Assisting Fellow-Competitor on Putting Green; Procedure for Referee If Competitor Does Not Lift Ball


Q.In stroke play, a competitor's ball is in a position to assist the play of a fellow-competitor and the competitor is in a position to lift the ball under Rule 22-1 without delaying the fellow-competitor's play. However, the competitor does not take any action to invoke the Rule. Would a referee be justified in intervening and requesting the competitor to invoke the Rule to protect himself and the rest of the field?


A.Yes. If the competitor were to object, there would be strong evidence of an agreement not to lift the ball for the purpose of assisting the fellow-competitor in breach of Rule 22-1. The referee would be justified in so advising the competitors involved and warning that failure to lift the ball would result in disqualification under Rule 22-1.


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#348 cowbomb02

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 02:58 AM

there's always something to complain about. I'm sure there will be a rule change soon.

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#349 Stuart G.

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 03:25 AM

View Postyouraway2, on 18 October 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 13 October 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

No, it doesn't say "should", it's says the player "may" have the ball lifted.  The rules leave the choice completely in the hands of the players.  it doesn't encourage or discourage any specific choice in the matter.

And the only concern that they say the referee should be involved in is to determine if any agreements were made ahead of time between players to leave the ball in place.

22/7


Ball Assisting Fellow-Competitor on Putting Green; Procedure for Referee If Competitor Does Not Lift Ball


Q.In stroke play, a competitor's ball is in a position to assist the play of a fellow-competitor and the competitor is in a position to lift the ball under Rule 22-1 without delaying the fellow-competitor's play. However, the competitor does not take any action to invoke the Rule. Would a referee be justified in intervening and requesting the competitor to invoke the Rule to protect himself and the rest of the field?

A.Yes. If the competitor were to object, there would be strong evidence of an agreement not to lift the ball for the purpose of assisting the fellow-competitor in breach of Rule 22-1. The referee would be justified in so advising the competitors involved and warning that failure to lift the ball would result in disqualification under Rule 22-1.

Nothing in there is contrary to anything I said.

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#350 SurfDuffer

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 06:28 AM

Is this thread for real?????

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#351 gioguy21

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 07:23 AM

View PostSurfDuffer, on 19 October 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

Is this thread for real?????

...still....going...

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#352 bladehunter

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 07:35 AM

This still isn't a real thing.
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#353 Matt J

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 11:29 AM

Seems the majority of players I've ever discussed this with agree that the key word in the rule is "agreed."

If you discuss it then it needs to be marked, while if a ball or balls are simply left on the green while another player from off the green plays then there is no rules violation.  Ultimately it has been spelled out in this thread pretty clearly that the biggest implication is pace.  Obviously every time a ball comes to rest on the putting surface it isn't feasible to mark before everyone else plays.  Where do you draw the line?  Some arbitrary yardage?  It can be left from 50 yards and out, but not within?  That would certainly impact pace.

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#354 marmooskapaul

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 11:37 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 19 October 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

This still isn't a real thing.

Well....not for most of us, but 4 people here and 6 on Shackland...it is...lol.

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#355 North Butte

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 11:57 AM

Well if single digit numbers of people count, anything and everything can be a "thing". If you know what I'm saying.

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#356 jpt1101

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 12:29 PM

What's more amazing isn't that this thread is still going, it's that people still think the player's are aiming for the competitor's ball and not the hole!  That is completely missing the point!

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#357 SurfDuffer

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 02:21 PM

Why limit it to just chips and bunker shots?  It should apply to all shots hit into the green.  You never know when the second guy hitting his 2nd shot into a par 5 from 235 is going to use the other guy's ball as a backstop to keep his shot on the green.
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#358 smeech8000

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 02:22 PM

It is most likely a thing.

A thing that is unproveable.

A thing for which a sensible remedy is unenforceable.
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#359 Pepperturbo

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 02:26 PM

Coming soon..  People will want backstop slopes around greens over ruled.   No more hitting past the pin, knowing the ball will deflect off or roll backwards to reach an otherwise difficult pin position.  :beach:
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#360 North Butte

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 02:36 PM

View PostPepperturbo, on 23 October 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Coming soon..  People will want backstop slopes around greens over ruled.   No more hitting past the pin, knowing the ball will deflect off or roll backwards to reach an otherwise difficult pin position.  :beach:

I know, what's up with that? Or those stupid "sidestop" mounds on the side of a Par 5 green where an incoming 280-yard 3-wood shot will kick off and roll onto the green. That ought to be water, preferably with alligators or maybe those sharks with lasers on their heads...

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