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If PGA Bifurcates rules on ball - what do you play with?


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#91 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:06 PM

View Postjslane57, on 12 October 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

View Postjslane57, on 12 October 2017 - 11:12 AM, said:

I think if the USGA wanted to showcase how long these guys are, they would not trick out the courses. Rather play courses the general public play. That would show us far better. Instead the USGA wants winning scores to be close to par, not crazy low. And the equipment is so good that in order to do this, the courses have to be silly long and tough. Lesser equipment would negate the need for such modifications to the courses. So the problem exists, how to keep scores from going too low without backing up equipment? Do silly stuff to the courses.

I would contend that the PGA "tricks up" courses to drive scores down and highlight how awesome the players are. This is what their audience wants to see.
I would agree with this, except for that many of the regular golfers just don't get it. They can't see the distance on TV. The only way you can truly get a feel for the distance the modern player hits it is to have played the course, then watch the professional event in person. Most don't do that, instead they hear the golfer hit an 8-iron and figure the TV announcers are giving a false sense of distance. Or hear the announcer say the drive went 350 yards, but since it is just on TV, one can't truly see what a ball going 100 yards past your drive truly looks or sounds like.

You realize what a “production” it is when you know the course they’re playing on.

“It’s a 270 yard par 3, and oh my goodness, Jason Day is going to hit 8 iron. An 8 iron 270 yards? My, my, he’s really going to have to get a hold of it.”

But you’ve played the course, and you know that it’s 270 to the back of the tips, and today they have it set up from a secondary tee off to the side where it’s 180 center, 155 to the front of the green, downhill, with a blustery tailwind.


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#92 WidespreadPanic

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:27 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

That said, I still don't really understand what problem we're trying to solve for here. Merion proved in 2013 that you don't need a course to be 7,000+ to generate over-par winning scores from the best in the world. What people have to admit is that the PGA Tour is setting courses up for maximum "wow" factor so that we understand that "these guys are good". It's entertainment. Chicks dig the long ball. The golf course I play on has not fundamentally changed in ~50 years, and neither have the winning scores from club events. This is a non problem.

Agree agree agree
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#93 playa

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:40 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 October 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

Seems like it makes a lot more sense for the R&A and USGA just sit down and roll back the ball.  You'd think with Jack pushing it has to be on the table.

If this were 1930 and we we're talking about how many clubs to carry, they'd just ask a couple of the best players in the world and then do it.

Personally I'm fine with a dead ball and it would hurt me.  I play an old club that tips out at 6900 yards.  I can play it fairly competitively with the current ball, but would be toast with an 80% ball against a lot of my competition who would still insist on the tips.

Funny, it's the same story as the club I moved from that has a tee box at 7,400 yards.

At some point the ball companies and the golf courses have to be looked at as adversaries.  They are.  And, one is currently being given a pretty big advantage and the other is losing.

They are not MY adversary. I love so many of the current models of golf balls.

The source of all money made by golf-ball companies is people like me buying their product. Not one consumer in 10,000 is buying the current product and thinking, "Man, I wish I could buy a ball that went shorter and crookeder like we had in the 70's but all they offer are these modern high-performance, high-quality ones".

The source of legitimacy of the USGA/R&A is the millions of golfers who treat them as the ultimate authority on what exactly makes golf, golf. But they don't for a moment imagine that they can shove just any old arbitrary change down the throats of those golfers. If they announced that two years hence, the only balls conforming with ROG flew 20% shorter than today's ball and that low driver spin combined with high greenside spin would no longer be allowed, they would be completely ignored from that point out by the vast majority of their constituency. Not just ignore for equipment but ignore period.
I think you would find that if they released an old school wound balata ball they would sell plenty. Not to use in competition, but for practice or just for sh!ts and giggles in social rounds. I would buy some to use in practice to get better feedback when working the ball. Like practising with blades to force you to concentrate harder on finding the sweet spot. Balatas would also come in handy on par 3s with firm greens. I actually think that from 150 in balatas are better than modern balls, its just that modern balls are so much better with driver.

Edited by playa, 12 October 2017 - 03:43 PM.


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#94 WidespreadPanic

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:22 PM

I think the size of the hole should be made smaller. No need to touch the ball. Yes guys are hitting it very far, but with the increased moi of putters and the crazy putter technology, putts are being holed at an extremely high rate. The hole should be decreased to 3.75". We should also grow trees much, much higher to keep guys from bombing and gouging. No more 350 to the rough, recover to 30 feet, sink the putt. 1 under. The spinner wedge shaft should be banned. Dont even get me started on hybrids.
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#95 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:27 PM

View PostWidespreadPanic, on 13 October 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

I think the size of the hole should be made smaller. No need to touch the ball. Yes guys are hitting it very far, but with the increased moi of putters and the crazy putter technology, putts are being holed at an extremely high rate. The hole should be decreased to 3.75". We should also grow trees much, much higher to keep guys from bombing and gouging. No more 350 to the rough, recover to 30 feet, sink the putt. 1 under. The spinner wedge shaft should be banned. Dont even get me started on hybrids.

Who needs trees? With the almost unlimited budget and manpower available to the Tour and with today's technology, just set up a Trackman-style radar on every tee box of every dogleg hole. If the ball flies over a "no fly zone" on the inside the dogleg, an alarm sounds. The referee says, "Young man, you just bought yourself a TWO STROKE PENALTY. Now tee up another ball and hit it where you're supposed to".

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#96 gvogel

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:45 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 October 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

If they announced that two years hence, the only balls conforming with ROG flew 20% shorter than today's ball and that low driver spin combined with high greenside spin would no longer be allowed, they would be completely ignored from that point out by the vast majority of their constituency. Not just ignore for equipment but ignore period.

The R&A did just that in 1974. Nobody seemed to mind, particularly.

The USGA rolled back wedge grooves a couple of years ago. Nobody really cared.

That said, I still don't really understand what problem we're trying to solve for here. Merion proved in 2013 that you don't need a course to be 7,000+ to generate over-par winning scores from the best in the world. What people have to admit is that the PGA Tour is setting courses up for maximum "wow" factor so that we understand that "these guys are good". It's entertainment. Chicks dig the long ball. The golf course I play on has not fundamentally changed in ~50 years, and neither have the winning scores from club events. This is a non problem.

I am a golfer, and I am also an ardent fan.  I watch a lot of golf on TV.  When the USGA put the US Open at Merion in 2013, they set up the course so restrictively that most players were not hitting driver on all but a few holes.  Now, I see that as a problem, because I think that elite golfers should be tested on all phases of the game - and that includes hitting the driver long and in play.  Rory wasn't able to do that in this year's US Open, but Brooks Koepka did an admirable job.  As a fan, I hate to see a US Open course reduced to a course where it is necessary to hit iron off the tee.

My preference would be for a reduced distance ball, and another US Open at Merion with somewhat wider fairways, and slower greens.  I favor shorter golf courses, and equipment to make them competitive.
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#97 elwhippy

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:48 PM

It won't happen. The ruling bodies lack the cojones to even attempt a single spec ball. The manufacturers would never agree on an exactly same spec ball as their rivals. No brand differentiation would seriously hurt sales.

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#98 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:52 PM

Nothing wrong with being in the 1% of TV golf viewers who want to see Tour players hit the ball shorter and crookeder. Kind of like watching the NFL and wishing they'd go back to running the ball on first and second down every time and maybe bring back the DB head slap and stickum.

You might try checking out that golf architecture forum where the catechism includes:

The ball goes too far

Greens are too fast and too perfect

Bunkers should not be raked

There's no such thing as a fairway too wide

The game is far too easy nowadays
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#99 gvogel

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 02:45 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 October 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

Nothing wrong with being in the 1% of TV golf viewers who want to see Tour players hit the ball shorter and crookeder. Kind of like watching the NFL and wishing they'd go back to running the ball on first and second down every time and maybe bring back the DB head slap and stickum.

You might try checking out that golf architecture forum where the catechism includes:

The ball goes too far

Greens are too fast and too perfect

Bunkers should not be raked

There's no such thing as a fairway too wide

The game is far too easy nowadays

Yes, it is lovely picking the opposite side of this argument from you.

The nice thing is that a lot of folks at much more important levels than me are talking about it.
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#100 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 02:47 PM

They're probably still whinging about rangefinders, while they're at it.s

Wake me up when USGA/R&A issue a call for comments on a proposal to roll back golf ball performance.

Edited by North Butte, 13 October 2017 - 02:48 PM.

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#101 raynorfan1

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:37 PM

 gvogel, on 13 October 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

I am a golfer, and I am also an ardent fan.  I watch a lot of golf on TV.  When the USGA put the US Open at Merion in 2013, they set up the course so restrictively that most players were not hitting driver on all but a few holes.  Now, I see that as a problem, because I think that elite golfers should be tested on all phases of the game - and that includes hitting the driver long and in play.  Rory wasn't able to do that in this year's US Open, but Brooks Koepka did an admirable job.  As a fan, I hate to see a US Open course reduced to a course where it is necessary to hit iron off the tee.

Most guys hit driver 7 out of 14 (not including the 4 par 3’s) holes. The guy who won - Justin Rose - was top 5 in driving accuracy in 2013.

I too love to see a good test of golfers driving the ball. To me, this includes accuracy, as well as distance. If guys “can’t” hit driver because they’re worried about missing the fairway...they should spend more time at the range.

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#102 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:47 PM

So which are you more in favor of...

Encouraging the best players in the world have to make decisions instead of just bombing and gouging with driver?

Or forcing the best players in the world to hit 14 drivers per round and see how straight they can hit the driver?

For decades the USGA was firmly in the "make 'em hit driver on every hole and reward the guy who MISSES the least fairways". Their more "make choices" orientation of recent years seems a very welcome change to me. I've never considered it a very compelling major championship if it reduces down to the single dimension of who can hit driver the longest and straightest that week.

[EDIT] fixed awful typo!

Edited by North Butte, 13 October 2017 - 09:50 PM.

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#103 Lincoln_Arcadia

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:10 PM

If they bifurcate the balls, why not all the equipment?

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#104 raynorfan1

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:22 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 October 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

For decades the USGA was firmly in the "make 'em hit driver on every hole and reward the guy who hits the least fairways". Their more "make choices" orientation of recent years seems a very welcome change to me.

I disagree that this has been the USGA position. The USGA has always put a premium on keeping the ball in the fairway off the tee.

The PGA Tour...not so much.

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#105 Matt J

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:24 PM

 North Butte, on 12 October 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

 Matt J, on 12 October 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

Seems like it makes a lot more sense for the R&A and USGA just sit down and roll back the ball.  You'd think with Jack pushing it has to be on the table.

If this were 1930 and we we're talking about how many clubs to carry, they'd just ask a couple of the best players in the world and then do it.

Personally I'm fine with a dead ball and it would hurt me.  I play an old club that tips out at 6900 yards.  I can play it fairly competitively with the current ball, but would be toast with an 80% ball against a lot of my competition who would still insist on the tips.

Funny, it's the same story as the club I moved from that has a tee box at 7,400 yards.

At some point the ball companies and the golf courses have to be looked at as adversaries.  They are.  And, one is currently being given a pretty big advantage and the other is losing.

They are not MY adversary. I love so many of the current models of golf balls.

The source of all money made by golf-ball companies is people like me buying their product. Not one consumer in 10,000 is buying the current product and thinking, "Man, I wish I could buy a ball that went shorter and crookeder like we had in the 70's but all they offer are these modern high-performance, high-quality ones".

The source of legitimacy of the USGA/R&A is the millions of golfers who treat them as the ultimate authority on what exactly makes golf, golf. But they don't for a moment imagine that they can shove just any old arbitrary change down the throats of those golfers. If they announced that two years hence, the only balls conforming with ROG flew 20% shorter than today's ball and that low driver spin combined with high greenside spin would no longer be allowed, they would be completely ignored from that point out by the vast majority of their constituency. Not just ignore for equipment but ignore period.

How many balls are they going to sell when half the courses in the country are shuttered due to maintenance costs?

What of they simply mandated that balls have to be made of biodegradable material?

There are some currently in production and they're shorter than synthetic balls.


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#106 chippa13

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:04 PM

Now we're worried about the weekend warrior being too long for his local track?

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#107 Lincoln_Arcadia

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:49 PM

View Postchippa13, on 13 October 2017 - 09:04 PM, said:

Now we're worried about the weekend warrior being too long for his local track?

Yeah, with bifurcated balls and driver, the average amateur will suddenly drive 230 yards into trees.

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#108 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:51 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 October 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 October 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

For decades the USGA was firmly in the "make 'em hit driver on every hole and reward the guy who hits the least fairways". Their more "make choices" orientation of recent years seems a very welcome change to me.

I disagree that this has been the USGA position. The USGA has always put a premium on keeping the ball in the fairway off the tee.

The PGA Tour...not so much.

Wow, that was a nasty typo. Meant to say "misses the least fairways" or "hits the most fairways" but typed it bass-ackwards. Yikes!
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#109 Shilgy

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 11:31 PM

 gvogel, on 11 October 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

 Uhit, on 11 October 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

 gvogel, on 11 October 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

 pearsonified, on 09 October 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

Quote

You will...and it will be sooner than you think.

When I read this kind of nonsense, I imagine Grandpa Simpson out in the front yard, shaking his fist at a passing cloud.

The point about "old guys" is that old guys compete against other old guys, and that essentially levels the playing field as much as is necessary for them. (Of course, you still have long hitters and short hitters in that mix, as that's life.)

Oh, and then there's the whole "play the correct tees for your game" thing.

Bottom line: This whole debate is driven by an irrelevant fear of loss, as everyone would lose the exact same amount of distance under bifurcated ball rules.

And like I've already said, such a ruling would never affect any of us, as it would only be applied to young flatbellies trying to make the Tour (a la wooden bats in MLB versus college).

RELATIVITY is the only thing that matters here, and should bifurcation ever happen, no one on this site is going to lose anything relative to anyone else!

^ The voice of reason.  You said it better than I can.

Imagine, that you worked several years on your swing, that you are able to cut some dog legs, and to reach some par 5 in two.

Now, from one day to another, those things get lost...
...maybe also the interest in golf, if several years of work just vanish, and you are only older, with meanwhile next to no chance to close that suddenly appeared gap again.

Great!?

No, you worked for distance.  Your distance relative to your peers will still be longer.

And if the tee markers are moved up, you still have a chance to carry the hazard.
But you said in the ball goes too far thread that shorter hitters aren't affected as much? Surely if the 100 mph seeing isn't affected at all, as you told us, then the 110 would be affected less severely than the 120.

Edited by Shilgy, 13 October 2017 - 11:33 PM.

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#110 Shilgy

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 11:37 PM

I asked this in the too far thread but if a spinnier ball makes the game more difficult, as many have posted, how does that compute with Bubba's hooked wedge to win in extra holes at the Masters? Surely that shot would have been easier. Most short game shots would be easier. And you're kidding yourselves if you think the pros would throttle back. A spinnier ball would just mean the players hitting it best would win each week. Hmm, pretty much like now.

Edited by Shilgy, 13 October 2017 - 11:37 PM.

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#111 Uhit

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 01:42 AM

View PostShilgy, on 13 October 2017 - 11:37 PM, said:

I asked this in the too far thread but if a spinnier ball makes the game more difficult, as many have posted, how does that compute with Bubba's hooked wedge to win in extra holes at the Masters? Surely that shot would have been easier. Most short game shots would be easier. And you're kidding yourselves if you think the pros would throttle back. A spinnier ball would just mean the players hitting it best would win each week. Hmm, pretty much like now.

The most spinnie balls on the market are already regarded as the tour caliber balls...
...so, I also don´t get why a spinnier ball should make the game more difficult.
Tiger always wanted a spinnier ball - the weekend slicer maybe not...

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#112 Uhit

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 01:54 AM

View PostLincoln_Arcadia, on 13 October 2017 - 08:10 PM, said:

If they bifurcate the balls, why not all the equipment?

Yeah, a standard putter, that is accidentally exact the model, that fits the preferred player the best, and the preferred manufacturer...

Why let taller people use longer shafts?
They hit the balls far to far with the longer shafts...

Why let smaller people use shorter shafts?
It is far too easy for them to hit the fairway with those short sticks...

Single length clubs for everyone?

Same cloth for everyone...

Golf-uniforms - for everyone...

...every golf course with the same length and same design etc...

...some seem to work on the golfers nightmare.

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No one would watch, or want to play professional golf in a dull design.

Edited by Uhit, 14 October 2017 - 02:00 AM.


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