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If PGA Bifurcates rules on ball - what do you play with?


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#61 chippa13

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 03:00 PM

Manufacturers would never jump on that ball as the demand would be too small to be worth the effort.


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#62 caniac6

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 03:02 PM

View Postpearsonified, on 11 October 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

Few here seem to "get it"—any ruling on ball bifurcation would only affect professionals and NEVER your hackin' self.

If you are so hell-bent on playing what the pros play that you'd toss out 4-dozen ProV1s, you're an idiot.

If you play competitions that allow any ball but you still choose to play a dead one, you're an idiot.

Bottom line: Should the PGA ever adopt a "dead" ball, your personal game will NEVER be affected...unless you are so hard-headed that you force yourself to play precisely what they play, even if your club competitions (or drunken foursomes) allow you to play whatever the hell you want.

This is the ultimate non-issue.
I have to think this would have to be a USGA thing rather than a PGA thing, and the USGA has been resistant to two sets of rules as shown by the anchored putting ban. If this did become a PGA Tour thing,I wonder what the rules might be in a USGA event. Things could get very interesting.

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#63 Bad9

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 03:45 PM

I said earlier but I imagine there is 0% interest in the professional golf tours for a limited distance golf ball. None.

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#64 MooJersey

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 03:49 PM

It's interesting to me that golf has not standardized what ball will be played.  I would think golfers would be told what ball they will use for any specific tournament.  Interesting that's not the case.  Most likely due to sponsor $$$
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#65 soregongolfer

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 04:11 PM

I'm not on tour so...


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#66 BeerPerHole

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 07:05 PM

I'd play what I'm playing because I'm not a pro.

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#67 playa

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 10:47 PM

I would hope to be playing the pro ball on weekends, cause it would mean I am making cuts and playing for cheques.

But as I'm a double digit hacker I would play the 100% ball and take every advantage I can get.

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#68 WidespreadPanic

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 10:57 PM

View PostMooJersey, on 11 October 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

It's interesting to me that golf has not standardized what ball will be played.  I would think golfers would be told what ball they will use for any specific tournament.  Interesting that's not the case.  Most likely due to sponsor $$$
huh?
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#69 _Stormin_

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 04:02 AM

View Postgvogel, on 11 October 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

Heck, in October the ball goes shorter, behaves differently on pitch shots, and doesn't putt the same, compared to August.  One makes adjustments.
Heck, ain't that the truth. My usual playing partner and I were talking about this just last weekend during our round. We play as far into the winter as the weather allows and have golfed when it's both 95 degrees and 45 degrees within the past year. The ball changes enough from July to January that it feels like you're playing a different game entirely.

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#70 MooJersey

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:56 AM

View PostWidespreadPanic, on 11 October 2017 - 10:57 PM, said:

View PostMooJersey, on 11 October 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

It's interesting to me that golf has not standardized what ball will be played.  I would think golfers would be told what ball they will use for any specific tournament.  Interesting that's not the case.  Most likely due to sponsor $$$
huh?

You know like everyone has to use the same ball built to certain specs. Like baseball kinda.

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#71 Matt J

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 06:02 AM

View Postcaniac6, on 11 October 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

View Postpearsonified, on 11 October 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

Few here seem to "get it"—any ruling on ball bifurcation would only affect professionals and NEVER your hackin' self.

If you are so hell-bent on playing what the pros play that you'd toss out 4-dozen ProV1s, you're an idiot.

If you play competitions that allow any ball but you still choose to play a dead one, you're an idiot.

Bottom line: Should the PGA ever adopt a "dead" ball, your personal game will NEVER be affected...unless you are so hard-headed that you force yourself to play precisely what they play, even if your club competitions (or drunken foursomes) allow you to play whatever the hell you want.

This is the ultimate non-issue.
I have to think this would have to be a USGA thing rather than a PGA thing, and the USGA has been resistant to two sets of rules as shown by the anchored putting ban. If this did become a PGA Tour thing,I wonder what the rules might be in a USGA event. Things could get very interesting.

That's the rub.

OP just says bifurcate, without specifics.  Other posters assume it's just the Tour.  Makes sense, but that's not an absolute.  US Open, US Amateur, etc. are held by the USGA.

The players would go bonkers that's for sure, a few weeks of looking at the club face after each miss with a disgusted look a la Bubba with water on the face, bro.

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#72 Bad9

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 06:09 AM

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:


OP just says bifurcate, without specifics.  Other posters assume it's just the Tour.  Makes sense, but that's not an absolute.  US Open, US Amateur, etc. are held by the USGA.

View Postpacobanuelos, on 09 October 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

With more and more talk about the modern ball going too far and straight, curious to know the following:

The Tour decides to have their own rules on the golf ball and decide to limit it, making the pros play with a 80% ball. Amateurs can still play a more and more advanced golf ball.


The OP very clearly refers specifcally to the Tour in the second paragraph of the opening post.

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#73 Uhit

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 06:18 AM

View PostMooJersey, on 12 October 2017 - 05:56 AM, said:

View PostWidespreadPanic, on 11 October 2017 - 10:57 PM, said:

View PostMooJersey, on 11 October 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

It's interesting to me that golf has not standardized what ball will be played.  I would think golfers would be told what ball they will use for any specific tournament.  Interesting that's not the case.  Most likely due to sponsor $$$
huh?

You know like everyone has to use the same ball built to certain specs. Like baseball kinda.

And we know, due to countless threads, that every individual golfer has a (different) ball, that performs best for the individual game.

Thus, if you make a standard ball, this ball would suit some golfers more, than others...

...imagine, you are a senior golfer, who likes to use very soft balls, and you would be forced to use a ball like the Chrome+, B330, ZStar XV etc...
...and vice versa.

You would automatically give some golfers an unfair advantage, who are used to use similar balls (or have the better suited swing speed, and or spin rates).

That would be similar to force everyone to use the same golf clubs, same shafts etc...

...or the same car, the same food etc.

-

In baseball, football / soccer, basketball etc. two parties have to play one and the same ball at the same time - which is quite different, to the principle of the game golf.

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#74 North Butte

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 06:20 AM

View PostBad9, on 12 October 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:


OP just says bifurcate, without specifics.  Other posters assume it's just the Tour.  Makes sense, but that's not an absolute.  US Open, US Amateur, etc. are held by the USGA.

View Postpacobanuelos, on 09 October 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

With more and more talk about the modern ball going too far and straight, curious to know the following:

The Tour decides to have their own rules on the golf ball and decide to limit it, making the pros play with a 80% ball. Amateurs can still play a more and more advanced golf ball.


The OP very clearly refers specifcally to the Tour in the second paragraph of the opening post.

It's really like asking, "If the NFL changed to playing flag football 7 on 7 would you still watch it?"...which is an equally likely scenario.
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#75 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:48 AM

View PostBad9, on 12 October 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:

OP just says bifurcate, without specifics.  Other posters assume it's just the Tour.  Makes sense, but that's not an absolute.  US Open, US Amateur, etc. are held by the USGA.

View Postpacobanuelos, on 09 October 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

With more and more talk about the modern ball going too far and straight, curious to know the following:

The Tour decides to have their own rules on the golf ball and decide to limit it, making the pros play with a 80% ball. Amateurs can still play a more and more advanced golf ball.


The OP very clearly refers specifcally to the Tour in the second paragraph of the opening post.

Sure, but the problem with that is that the Tour doesn't own/run/have any control over the majors.

There is one entity that can solve this cleanly, effectively, and without debate: Augusta National Golf Club. They partner with somebody to build a "National" ball, which would be the only ball allowed at the Masters, and the rest of golf would fall into line.


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#76 gvogel

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:14 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

View PostBad9, on 12 October 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:

OP just says bifurcate, without specifics.  Other posters assume it's just the Tour.  Makes sense, but that's not an absolute.  US Open, US Amateur, etc. are held by the USGA.

View Postpacobanuelos, on 09 October 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

With more and more talk about the modern ball going too far and straight, curious to know the following:

The Tour decides to have their own rules on the golf ball and decide to limit it, making the pros play with a 80% ball. Amateurs can still play a more and more advanced golf ball.


The OP very clearly refers specifcally to the Tour in the second paragraph of the opening post.

Sure, but the problem with that is that the Tour doesn't own/run/have any control over the majors.

There is one entity that can solve this cleanly, effectively, and without debate: Augusta National Golf Club. They partner with somebody to build a "National" ball, which would be the only ball allowed at the Masters, and the rest of golf would fall into line.

That isn't the likely scenario.  Augusta National would draw up the parameters of a "National" ball, which would likely include a reduced initial velocity parameter compared to the present ball.  Then they would allow each manufacturer to develop a ball, or balls, that would meet the "National" parameters.  Matsuyama would still be playing Srixon, and Thomas would still be playing Titleist.

Folks say that there would be no market for such a ball.  I disagree.  If the pros were required to play that ball in a bunch of tournaments, good amateur golfers would play that ball from time to time, because good amateur golfers want to see how they measure up against the best.

I see how a lot of folks on this site dismiss such a ball out of hand.  They have "worked" for their distance.  They don't see a problem with driver/wedge on par 4's.  They see such a ball as hurting the longer players; or some see it as hurting the shorter players.  They feel challenged that their own hard won distance gains will be taken away.

A reduced distance ball shouldn't be looked at in that regard.  It should be looked at as restoring the shot making skills inherent in playing a specific golf course, as opposed to redesigning the golf course to make it over 8,000 yards in order to maintain the challenge of the game (ie: using all the clubs in the bag).
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#77 North Butte

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:19 AM

The "pros" are never going to willingly play a ball that isn't marketed to retail golfers. That marketing lines their pockets. And marketing a deliberately throttled-back ball to retail golfers in parallel to the existing higher performance balls is a totally losing proposition.

But hey, it would give dozens, maybe hundreds of grumpy old men a warm and fuzzy feeling to see Dustin Johnson hitting longer clubs into 13 and 15 at Augusta so there's that...
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#78 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:27 AM

View Postgvogel, on 12 October 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

That isn't the likely scenario.  Augusta National would draw up the parameters of a "National" ball, which would likely include a reduced initial velocity parameter compared to the present ball.  Then they would allow each manufacturer to develop a ball, or balls, that would meet the "National" parameters.  Matsuyama would still be playing Srixon, and Thomas would still be playing Titleist.

Folks say that there would be no market for such a ball.  I disagree.  If the pros were required to play that ball in a bunch of tournaments, good amateur golfers would play that ball from time to time, because good amateur golfers want to see how they measure up against the best.

I think that's what happens if the USGA or PGA Tour were the entity leading the charge. Augusta could actually build their own ball and make it work.

People also forget that it wasn't that long ago when their actually were two balls specs in the world - the R&A and USGA had different minimum diameters, creating the British "small ball" that went (by consensus) about 10% farther than the American ball. The sport voluntarily consolidated on the lower distance, larger ball.

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#79 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:32 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 October 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

The "pros" are never going to willingly play a ball that isn't marketed to retail golfers.

They already do. Look at the conforming balls list. There are 7 models of the Pro V1x currently in production on the conforming list.

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#80 Matt J

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:53 AM

Seems like it makes a lot more sense for the R&A and USGA just sit down and roll back the ball.  You'd think with Jack pushing it has to be on the table.

If this were 1930 and we we're talking about how many clubs to carry, they'd just ask a couple of the best players in the world and then do it.

Personally I'm fine with a dead ball and it would hurt me.  I play an old club that tips out at 6900 yards.  I can play it fairly competitively with the current ball, but would be toast with an 80% ball against a lot of my competition who would still insist on the tips.

Funny, it's the same story as the club I moved from that has a tee box at 7,400 yards.

At some point the ball companies and the golf courses have to be looked at as adversaries.  They are.  And, one is currently being given a pretty big advantage and the other is losing.

I wonder how much concern there is that there would be a secondary market of pirate balls that would be difficult to differentiate.  All of a sudden a short knocker like me isn't *that* far behind the big boys because I play the longest illegal ball that isn't conspicuous.  Alibaba much?

Edited by Matt J, 12 October 2017 - 08:58 AM.


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#81 North Butte

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:01 AM

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

Seems like it makes a lot more sense for the R&A and USGA just sit down and roll back the ball.  You'd think with Jack pushing it has to be on the table.

If this were 1930 and we we're talking about how many clubs to carry, they'd just ask a couple of the best players in the world and then do it.

Personally I'm fine with a dead ball and it would hurt me.  I play an old club that tips out at 6900 yards.  I can play it fairly competitively with the current ball, but would be toast with an 80% ball against a lot of my competition who would still insist on the tips.

Funny, it's the same story as the club I moved from that has a tee box at 7,400 yards.

At some point the ball companies and the golf courses have to be looked at as adversaries.  They are.  And, one is currently being given a pretty big advantage and the other is losing.

They are not MY adversary. I love so many of the current models of golf balls.

The source of all money made by golf-ball companies is people like me buying their product. Not one consumer in 10,000 is buying the current product and thinking, "Man, I wish I could buy a ball that went shorter and crookeder like we had in the 70's but all they offer are these modern high-performance, high-quality ones".

The source of legitimacy of the USGA/R&A is the millions of golfers who treat them as the ultimate authority on what exactly makes golf, golf. But they don't for a moment imagine that they can shove just any old arbitrary change down the throats of those golfers. If they announced that two years hence, the only balls conforming with ROG flew 20% shorter than today's ball and that low driver spin combined with high greenside spin would no longer be allowed, they would be completely ignored from that point out by the vast majority of their constituency. Not just ignore for equipment but ignore period.
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#82 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:22 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 October 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

If they announced that two years hence, the only balls conforming with ROG flew 20% shorter than today's ball and that low driver spin combined with high greenside spin would no longer be allowed, they would be completely ignored from that point out by the vast majority of their constituency. Not just ignore for equipment but ignore period.

The R&A did just that in 1974. Nobody seemed to mind, particularly.

The USGA rolled back wedge grooves a couple of years ago. Nobody really cared.

That said, I still don't really understand what problem we're trying to solve for here. Merion proved in 2013 that you don't need a course to be 7,000+ to generate over-par winning scores from the best in the world. What people have to admit is that the PGA Tour is setting courses up for maximum "wow" factor so that we understand that "these guys are good". It's entertainment. Chicks dig the long ball. The golf course I play on has not fundamentally changed in ~50 years, and neither have the winning scores from club events. This is a non problem.

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#83 chippa13

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:08 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 October 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

The "pros" are never going to willingly play a ball that isn't marketed to retail golfers.

They already do. Look at the conforming balls list. There are 7 models of the Pro V1x currently in production on the conforming list.

True, but at the same time Titleist can still make the blanket statement that ProV1 and ProV1X are the most played balls on tour. The adjustments made to the conforming versions aren't enough to call them a different model. Making the changes suggested in this thread would create a completely different ball. What would the ads be:

We make the #1 ball on tour.........but buy this other one that you might like because most of you will hate playing the #1 ball on tour.

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#84 jslane57

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:12 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 October 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

If they announced that two years hence, the only balls conforming with ROG flew 20% shorter than today's ball and that low driver spin combined with high greenside spin would no longer be allowed, they would be completely ignored from that point out by the vast majority of their constituency. Not just ignore for equipment but ignore period.

The R&A did just that in 1974. Nobody seemed to mind, particularly.

The USGA rolled back wedge grooves a couple of years ago. Nobody really cared.

That said, I still don't really understand what problem we're trying to solve for here. Merion proved in 2013 that you don't need a course to be 7,000+ to generate over-par winning scores from the best in the world. What people have to admit is that the PGA Tour is setting courses up for maximum "wow" factor so that we understand that "these guys are good". It's entertainment. Chicks dig the long ball. The golf course I play on has not fundamentally changed in ~50 years, and neither have the winning scores from club events. This is a non problem.
I think if the USGA wanted to showcase how long these guys are, they would not trick out the courses. Rather play courses the general public play. That would show us far better. Instead the USGA wants winning scores to be close to par, not crazy low. And the equipment is so good that in order to do this, the courses have to be silly long and tough. Lesser equipment would negate the need for such modifications to the courses. So the problem exists, how to keep scores from going too low without backing up equipment? Do silly stuff to the courses. The irony is that it takes more recourses and money to change the courses than it would to change the equipment.
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts" -Einstein

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#85 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:18 AM

View Postjslane57, on 12 October 2017 - 11:12 AM, said:

I think if the USGA wanted to showcase how long these guys are, they would not trick out the courses. Rather play courses the general public play. That would show us far better. Instead the USGA wants winning scores to be close to par, not crazy low. And the equipment is so good that in order to do this, the courses have to be silly long and tough. Lesser equipment would negate the need for such modifications to the courses. So the problem exists, how to keep scores from going too low without backing up equipment? Do silly stuff to the courses.

I would contend that the PGA "tricks up" courses to drive scores down and highlight how awesome the players are. This is what their audience wants to see.


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#86 Bad9

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:56 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

View PostBad9, on 12 October 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:

OP just says bifurcate, without specifics.  Other posters assume it's just the Tour.  Makes sense, but that's not an absolute.  US Open, US Amateur, etc. are held by the USGA.

View Postpacobanuelos, on 09 October 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

With more and more talk about the modern ball going too far and straight, curious to know the following:

The Tour decides to have their own rules on the golf ball and decide to limit it, making the pros play with a 80% ball. Amateurs can still play a more and more advanced golf ball.


The OP very clearly refers specifcally to the Tour in the second paragraph of the opening post.

Sure, but the problem with that is that the Tour doesn't own/run/have any control over the majors.

There is one entity that can solve this cleanly, effectively, and without debate: Augusta National Golf Club. They partner with somebody to build a "National" ball, which would be the only ball allowed at the Masters, and the rest of golf would fall into line.

If the ball is intentionally shorter than now I would bet it's a ball that gets used for one tournament a year.

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#87 Bad9

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:00 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:


That said, I still don't really understand what problem we're trying to solve for here. Merion proved in 2013 that you don't need a course to be 7,000+ to generate over-par winning scores from the best in the world. What people have to admit is that the PGA Tour is setting courses up for maximum "wow" factor so that we understand that "these guys are good". It's entertainment. Chicks dig the long ball. The golf course I play on has not fundamentally changed in ~50 years, and neither have the winning scores from club events. This is a non problem.

Essentially what I feel and most who are posting against rolling the ball back are saying as well.

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#88 Tcann32

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:10 PM

Gary player isn't going to be happy till DJ is only hitting the ball as far as he was. I'm sorry, he is/was a great golfer, but his ego rivals the best of them.

At any rate.... sorry for the rant. Since I know that me hitting the ball further doesn't actually equate to better scoring for myself, I'll continue to use the super enhanced balls that make low scores possible.
What's actually in the bag...
Callaway Epic SZ-9.0-Aldila X-Torsion Green Mamba-70TX
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Callaway Apex UT 21* - C- taper S+
Miura LH LTD Black Blades: 3-p w/ DG TI X7's.
Cleveland RTX 3: 50-54 w. C-Taper S+
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Scratch Golf 51,55,58,59
Wilson Staff Kirk Currie Milled

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#89 BlkNGld

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:11 PM

View PostBad9, on 12 October 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

View PostBad9, on 12 October 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:

OP just says bifurcate, without specifics.  Other posters assume it's just the Tour.  Makes sense, but that's not an absolute.  US Open, US Amateur, etc. are held by the USGA.

View Postpacobanuelos, on 09 October 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

With more and more talk about the modern ball going too far and straight, curious to know the following:

The Tour decides to have their own rules on the golf ball and decide to limit it, making the pros play with a 80% ball. Amateurs can still play a more and more advanced golf ball.


The OP very clearly refers specifcally to the Tour in the second paragraph of the opening post.

Sure, but the problem with that is that the Tour doesn't own/run/have any control over the majors.

There is one entity that can solve this cleanly, effectively, and without debate: Augusta National Golf Club. They partner with somebody to build a "National" ball, which would be the only ball allowed at the Masters, and the rest of golf would fall into line.

If the ball is intentionally shorter than now I would bet it's a ball that gets used for one tournament a year.

I'm not sure of that... while I think the PGA tour would certainly be the last on board, I can see the PGA, USGA, and R&A following suit for their championships.    If ANGC went first I suspect on the hush they'd iask USGA/R&A if they've given any thought to it and what their idea of such a ball would look like.

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#90 jslane57

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:20 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

View Postjslane57, on 12 October 2017 - 11:12 AM, said:

I think if the USGA wanted to showcase how long these guys are, they would not trick out the courses. Rather play courses the general public play. That would show us far better. Instead the USGA wants winning scores to be close to par, not crazy low. And the equipment is so good that in order to do this, the courses have to be silly long and tough. Lesser equipment would negate the need for such modifications to the courses. So the problem exists, how to keep scores from going too low without backing up equipment? Do silly stuff to the courses.

I would contend that the PGA "tricks up" courses to drive scores down and highlight how awesome the players are. This is what their audience wants to see.
I would agree with this, except for that many of the regular golfers just don't get it. They can't see the distance on TV. The only way you can truly get a feel for the distance the modern player hits it is to have played the course, then watch the professional event in person. Most don't do that, instead they hear the golfer hit an 8-iron and figure the TV announcers are giving a false sense of distance. Or hear the announcer say the drive went 350 yards, but since it is just on TV, one can't truly see what a ball going 100 yards past your drive truly looks or sounds like.

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts" -Einstein

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