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If PGA Bifurcates rules on ball - what do you play with?


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#31 _Stormin_

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:11 AM

 pearsonified, on 09 October 2017 - 03:46 PM, said:

As a final note, I'd like to add that I WISH I could play a "dead" ball on courses under 6400 yards. It'd be easier for me to keep the ball on the course off the tee, and I'd have no problem giving up my typical distance advantage on par 5s if it meant I could keep the ball in play more easily on the rest of the holes.
Unless you're teeing off with your 64 degree wedge and hitting the putter on the rest of your shots, I believe that the solution is obvious for you... Club down and the ball will travel shorter distances. (Working on your dispersion wouldn't hurt either, if you can't find the fairway with the driver.) We have a Par 4 at my home track that is short and has water cutting across the course from 255 to 300 from my normal tees. I hit my four iron off the tee and then a seven to the green to not have to worry about driver/3 wood being in the drink.

As far as the ball rules, the best equation has got to be the metal/wood bat rule. Amateurs will play the best equipment available to them. Pros will play with what conforms. I have had to regrove my wedges once and I have no idea if they're conforming to tournament rules. I don't play in tournaments, and they spin the ball like they did when they were new. I stop on the green, just like the pros. :D


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#32 North Butte

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:13 AM

Except amateur baseball players don't spend a billion dollars a year (or whatever huge number) buying bats endorsed by MLB players.
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#33 pacobanuelos

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:21 AM

 North Butte, on 10 October 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

Except amateur baseball players don't spend a billion dollars a year (or whatever huge number) buying bats endorsed by MLB players.

That's the thing...a segment of people may say they'll game the alien wedge if they feel it helps them, but another segment of golfers - the ones providing for the majority of the OEMs revenue, frankly - want what's endorsed and used by the pros. The WITB section it's huge in this website for that reason IMO
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#34 Matt J

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:28 AM

 pearsonified, on 09 October 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

Quote

I play a lot of golf with old guys that need the distance.

I hate when this reason gets trotted out. Who cares what ball an old guy who can only hit it 230 plays?

The only thing that matters regarding ball bifurcation is what ball is required for use in various tournaments. I suspect nearly all club play would continue as normal with the "juiced" balls, and perhaps only professional or maybe even high-level amateur events on classic courses would use the "dead" ball.

People are really sensationalist and off base about this issue, IMO. How is adjusting to a ball any different from adjusting to playing at a different altitude? (Hint: It isn't.)

If you're going to quote me, at least read the rest of my post.

What did I write?  It will be hard for some players that end up playing events with the "other" ball.

Gapping, clubbing, managing trajectory and spin is hard enough without needing two different games to balance.  Not at all the same thing as playing the same ball at higher or lower altitude.  Not to mention that's not a great angle considering when the BMW came to Cherry Hills the pros' proximity to hole was down just at 5,200 ft.

I'm sure you're one of the multiple majors winners that posts on WRX and it would be no problem for you, but a lot of guys that play club events at their home course as well as regional and national events would be stuck trying to practice with two balls.  Hard enough to make time to practice with one.

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#35 SkiSchoolPro

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 12:32 PM

I'm of the opinion that today's ball not only flies longer than the balls used 3 decades ago, but also STRAIGHTER- it seems that many more shots that start with a fade or draw seem to straighten out (or curve less than decades ago).

While there is a good argument that making the ball go shorter will help make some courses a better test for the pros (to me this means having shots of different lengths and different clubs that test the complete game of a player regardless of how low the winning score is), the counter argument is that people like to hit it far and watch pros who hit it far.

Its interesting that while the pros definitely benefit from today's technology, the handicap of the average golfer has not gone down much over the years and that high HC (and new) golfers struggle more on today's Championship courses than at many classic or older courses. A longer and straighter flying ball only helps if you make decent contact.

I think introducing a pro ball that is LESS STRAIGHT (aka, curves more) might be a better way to regulate the game (as opposed to limiting distance). This would still allow people to be impress by pros who hit it a mile and most courses could be set up to offer a variety of shot lengths (even if it means shortening some par 4s to make them 3.5s to offer more shots in the 200-300 yard range).

The advantage to a more crooked ball for pros is that courses will not need to be as hard (i.e. slightly wider landing areas) to separate out top players which means that they will be more playable for normal players. Among other things, this will help to speed up play and make the game more enjoyable for the masses. If you compare PGA tournament courses from 30+ years ago to today, they have gotten longer, with firmer/faster greens and more tucked pins. IMO, fast greens (and small landing areas with trouble close by) are a nightmare for most bogey+ golfers, but because this is what is played now on tour,this is what it takes to be considered a top course. More courses would be considered close to championship caliber if pro set-ups were under 7,000, a max green speed of 10-12 and played  with a more crooked ball. Top ams could play the pro ball if they want, while the majority of golfers could enjoy themselves more by playing courses that are set up more like courses of years past.

Professional skiers endorse skis, but the only thing that is the same as the skis used by most recreational skiers is the brand name on the top sheet.


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#36 North Butte

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 12:43 PM

So is it a fair paraphrase to say you want to see the guys on TV play worse than they do. Preferably hit it shorter but definitely play worse one way or another. And ideally the guys on TV play worse while the rest of us don't play any worse.

Remarkable.
A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

--Plato

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#37 BlkNGld

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 01:04 PM

I'll play whatever ball that the USGA/R&A allow for handicap purposes, same as today.   But I only visit the tips on the shortest of courses and don't play USGA tournaments, so I don't expect to ever be required to deal with a tournament ball.   But if I were then I'd use it where required.

The more this topic comes up, the more I think Nicklaus got it right.

Specifically, instead of playing different sets of tees, play different balls.    The guy that plays from the tips has a ball that's shorter than the guy from the blues which is shorter than the one from the whites, etc.   Standardize on some marking that corresponds to the 'tee'.  

Saves on real estate, maintenance, etc.   No more 'which tees are we playing'.    It's not perfect, but it's much closer to everyone having to play the same course.   And without such huge distance disparities it might even speed up play.

Course ratings and giving/getting strokes is based on the ball being played where it used to be based on tees.  

I would expect the ball companies to protest at first, but in the long run I think they might make more money once they figure out how to market the everyman balls being 'higher tech' than the 'tour' ball.

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#38 Uhit

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 02:27 PM

Not every course in every country has the same color for marking the different tees...
Different ball classes would lead to more confusion, and would invite for cheating.

Beside that you would take the fun, and the entertaining risk, to cut a dog leg, out of the game.

The longer the drive, the more precise it has to be, which also is a high skill, that should be rewarded.

If you believe the statistics, the handicap was not affected over decades, despite the different equipment...
...maybe because you have to be over proportional precise, if you hit it longer...
...and maybe because the advanced course layout has also adapted to the needs.

It would be far more annoying for the golfing majority to shorten modern courses and to survey the use of the correct balls,
than to accept, that maybe once a decade a new course record is set - which can be also due to exceptional weather conditions, or a different preparation of the course by the green keepers.

New courses are not really needed at the moment, thus you don´t need more real estate anyway...
...and if so, it is the choice of the investor.

That some people speculate in selling / buying real estate has not necessarily something to do with golf.

Make the fairways less firm, and let the grass grow longer, and you are done in regard of distance and maintenance costs - no ruling needed, just a hint to the head green keeper.

-

Our senior golfers know, when to play tournaments, to lower the handicap - when the fairways are hard, and the gras is short, thus they gain one, or two clubs length in roll.

The ball companies gain market share, if they can sell a ball, that travels farther, and / or produces more, or less spin.
Imagine a marketing for shorter balls...
...especially, if they would need a small gap between the different tees,
the different club head speed people have, would make it impossible to make a rule for a ball, that sits in between the longer and the shorter tees.

If you browse this forum, you will find many threads and comments, where it becomes clear, that even with one limit for all balls,
people get different (partly contradicting) results with the same balls...
...now imagine 4 limits with a small gap between each other!

The topic comes up, because the season in the northern hemisphere is almost done.
The golf swing of Nicklaus is far more interesting, and useful to watch, than his ideas to make more money for him at his age...
...remember, he is pretty strong involved in the golf ball, and the golf course business, and has time to burn as a businessman, where he has meanwhile more chances to excel, than in golf.

I like his swing, and admire his achievements as a golfer, but that does not mean, that I buy everything he is claiming - no matter how often it is repeated.

A successful race car driver is not necessarily a great engineer, or mechanics - a great golfer has not necessarily the abilities to create great equipment, or great ideas around the theme golf.

Edited by Uhit, 10 October 2017 - 02:28 PM.


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#39 daegyu

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 05:15 PM

you lost me at "bifurcate"
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#40 buckeyefl

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 05:56 PM

 SkiSchoolPro, on 10 October 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

I'm of the opinion that today's ball not only flies longer than the balls used 3 decades ago, but also STRAIGHTER- it seems that many more shots that start with a fade or draw seem to straighten out (or curve less than decades ago).



Thats not an opinion, its fact.


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#41 buckeyefl

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 05:59 PM

View PostBlkNGld, on 10 October 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

I'll play whatever ball that the USGA/R&A allow for handicap purposes, same as today.   But I only visit the tips on the shortest of courses and don't play USGA tournaments, so I don't expect to ever be required to deal with a tournament ball.   But if I were then I'd use it where required.

The more this topic comes up, the more I think Nicklaus got it right.

Specifically, instead of playing different sets of tees, play different balls. The guy that plays from the tips has a ball that's shorter than the guy from the blues which is shorter than the one from the whites, etc.   Standardize on some marking that corresponds to the 'tee'.  

Saves on real estate, maintenance, etc.   No more 'which tees are we playing'. It's not perfect, but it's much closer to everyone having to play the same course.   And without such huge distance disparities it might even speed up play.

Course ratings and giving/getting strokes is based on the ball being played where it used to be based on tees.  

I would expect the ball companies to protest at first, but in the long run I think they might make more money once they figure out how to market the everyman balls being 'higher tech' than the 'tour' ball.

Nothing personal but "play different balls" is not only not the answer but laughable. Also if you think it would stop people from playing the wrong tees then you dont know golfers very well.

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#42 BIG STU

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:04 PM

View PostConrad1953, on 09 October 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

Ball won't be changed......golf fans want to see the long ball.

No matter I would still play with the superball that is the current golf ball
just like I play with the irons that I like regardless of the USGA's misguided
groove rule.
That is correct you are a OGA Member and we play what we darn well please and do not care about the USGA, PGA or the R&A especially the USGA
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#43 BIG STU

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:11 PM

View PostBlkNGld, on 10 October 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

I'll play whatever ball that the USGA/R&A allow for handicap purposes, same as today.   But I only visit the tips on the shortest of courses and don't play USGA tournaments, so I don't expect to ever be required to deal with a tournament ball.   But if I were then I'd use it where required.

The more this topic comes up, the more I think Nicklaus got it right.

Specifically, instead of playing different sets of tees, play different balls. The guy that plays from the tips has a ball that's shorter than the guy from the blues which is shorter than the one from the whites, etc.   Standardize on some marking that corresponds to the 'tee'.  

Saves on real estate, maintenance, etc.   No more 'which tees are we playing'. It's not perfect, but it's much closer to everyone having to play the same course.   And without such huge distance disparities it might even speed up play.

Course ratings and giving/getting strokes is based on the ball being played where it used to be based on tees.  

I would expect the ball companies to protest at first, but in the long run I think they might make more money once they figure out how to market the everyman balls being 'higher tech' than the 'tour' ball.
Pretty good thoughts I gotta give you credit for an intellegent thought. But I have said this many times before when this subject crops up from time to time. I think it will hurt the ball companies in the long run because there are so many Billions and billions of balls that conform to today's standards that no mainstream recreational golfer is going to suddenly junk dozens and dozens of balls. Really out of all the amateur golfers that play the game I would say less than 5% really play stipulated USGA comps. With that being said I will venture that the same percent of handicaps if you get really technical by the rules and being a rules Nazi are legit. Just my .02 FWIW
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#44 terrell75

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:39 PM

Great imaginative thinking going on here. I’m looking forward to reading more.

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#45 jslane57

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 06:49 PM

I'd play the Pinnacle Soft! Or the Bridgestone I find next to the OB on hole 2. Or the K-sig. Really, this would impact so few golfers. If my club decided to use the short ball, I'd use the short ball. If i decided to enter an event that required to use the short ball, I'd use the short ball. The freak out about this is amazing. When I was young you could still find the smaller ball around. Some folks liked to play it. As far as the masses of golfers, I can tell you that the beginner golfer and the club hacker wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two. Why? They're not good enough. Heck, they think their 8-iron goes farther than their 5-iron...because for them it does! LOL

Edited by jslane57, 10 October 2017 - 06:50 PM.

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts" -Einstein

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#46 SkiSchoolPro

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:09 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 10 October 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

So is it a fair paraphrase to say you want to see the guys on TV play worse than they do. Preferably hit it shorter but definitely play worse one way or another. And ideally the guys on TV play worse while the rest of us don't play any worse.

Remarkable.

I like seeing good golf on TV, but don't think that technology should reduce the need for skill and make it easier for less skilled players to compete with more skilled players IN A COMPETITIVE FORMAT. I.E. when square grooves were introduced, hitting it accurately became less important as tour pros could still impart spin from the rough. I think the same is true for balls that fly straighter- it reduces the penalty for less than square contact (relative to swing path and aim point). In my mind, both distance and accuracy are skills that should be tested at the highest levels with those that are better (along with short game) winning tournaments. A ball that curves more won't penalize pros when they hit good shots, but may penalize them more when they are off.

Why do they use wooden bats in the major leagues? Why do some people bow hunt, use muzzle-loaders or fish with lighter lines? Because the best need more of a challenge to test their skills.

On the other hand, golf seems plenty hard for most players with even the easiest courses be a good test for most.. Instead of making courses harder and harder (which challenge everyone more and more), I think it would be better to challenge the top pros in a way that does not make it harder for the player who can't break 100. IMO, tucked pins and firm greens are fine when a course is to be played by tournament pros only, but for everyday play, things like fast, undulating greens, deep bunkering and lots of hazards present a nightmare for many recreational golfers. If pros played with a more curvy ball, the designers of championship courses might come up with something that would allow more players to finish rounds in 4 hours.

For the record, I would be happy to see pros shoot in the 50s as long the most skilled players were winning the majority of tournaments. Its not bad golf that I want to see, rather, I want to see skill dominate at the top levels while still being enjoyable for the hacks.

Edited by SkiSchoolPro, 11 October 2017 - 11:13 AM.


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#47 BlkNGld

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:09 PM

View Postbuckeyefl, on 10 October 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

View PostBlkNGld, on 10 October 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

I'll play whatever ball that the USGA/R&A allow for handicap purposes, same as today.   But I only visit the tips on the shortest of courses and don't play USGA tournaments, so I don't expect to ever be required to deal with a tournament ball.   But if I were then I'd use it where required.

The more this topic comes up, the more I think Nicklaus got it right.

Specifically, instead of playing different sets of tees, play different balls. The guy that plays from the tips has a ball that's shorter than the guy from the blues which is shorter than the one from the whites, etc.   Standardize on some marking that corresponds to the 'tee'.  

Saves on real estate, maintenance, etc.   No more 'which tees are we playing'. It's not perfect, but it's much closer to everyone having to play the same course.   And without such huge distance disparities it might even speed up play.

Course ratings and giving/getting strokes is based on the ball being played where it used to be based on tees.  

I would expect the ball companies to protest at first, but in the long run I think they might make more money once they figure out how to market the everyman balls being 'higher tech' than the 'tour' ball.

Nothing personal but "play different balls" is not only not the answer but laughable. Also if you think it would stop people from playing the wrong tees then you dont know golfers very well.

The point is that you replace the tees with the ball.   There would in essence be only one set of tees.   That would be radical for many, but really ball technology is such that you wouldn't have to do that.    Maybe you have combine the men's tees into one and the senior/ladies tees into another.

It would no longer be a case of playing the wrong tees as much as the wrong ball.  

We've all encountered the guy that plays the tips when they should really be at the whites.   The possible beauty of this is that if those tees are combined into one, that person that insists on playing the 'pro' ball is going to outdriven by the person playing the proper ball.   Likely their ego won't handle that for very long.

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#48 North Butte

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:17 PM

Why do some people get so worked up about the fact that golf courses have...gasp...more than one set of tees?
A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

--Plato

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#49 Uhit

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:24 PM

View PostSkiSchoolPro, on 11 October 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 10 October 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

So is it a fair paraphrase to say you want to see the guys on TV play worse than they do. Preferably hit it shorter but definitely play worse one way or another. And ideally the guys on TV play worse while the rest of us don't play any worse.

Remarkable.

I like seeing good golf on TV, but don't think that technology should reduce the need for skill and make it easier for less skilled players to compete with more skilled players IN A COMPETITIVE FORMAT. I.E. when square grooves were introduced, hitting it accurately became less important as tour pros could still impart spin from the rough. I think the same is true for balls that fly straighter- it reduces the penalty for less than square contact (relative to swing path and aim point). In my mind, both distance and accuracy are skills that should be tested at the highest levels with those that are better (along with short game) winning tournaments. A ball that curves more won't penalize pros when they hit good shots, but may penalize them more when they are off.

Why do they use wooden bats in the major leagues? Why do some people bow hunt, use muzzle-loaders or fish with lighter lines? Because the best need more of a challenge to test their skills.

On the other hand, golf seems plenty hard for most players with even the easiest courses be a good test for most.. Instead of making courses harder and harder (which challenge everyone more and more), I think it would be better to challenge the top pros in a way that does not make it harder for the player who can't break 100. IMO, tucked pins and firm greens are fine when a course is to be played by tournament pros only, but for everyday play, things like fast, undulating greens, deep bunkering and lots of hazards present a nightmare for many recreational golfers. If pros played with a more curvy ball, the designers of championship courses might come up with something that would allow more players to finish rounds in 4 hours.

For the record, I would be happy to see pros shoot in the 50s as long the most skilled players were winning the majority of tournaments. Its not bad golf that I want to see, rather, I want to see skill dominate at the top levels while still being enjoyable for the hacks.

Yes, distance and accuracy should be rewarded - the farther a ball travels, the more accuracy you need, to hit the fairway, or the green...
...thus the pros should play balls, that travel farther - no?

Tour balls, like the ProV´s, B series, or ZStars, are already more curvy, than the e6 range of balls...

...so, we already have, what you desire - isn´t it?

Ok, except the smash factor, and COR limit, etc. which prohibit to get more distance...
...if we would drop those limits, it would be even harder to achieve the necessary accuracy for the increased distance.
Only the best of the best could control those distances, and use them to lower their scores...
...skill would be rewarded even more.

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#50 BlkNGld

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:34 PM

View PostBIG STU, on 10 October 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

View PostBlkNGld, on 10 October 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

I'll play whatever ball that the USGA/R&A allow for handicap purposes, same as today.   But I only visit the tips on the shortest of courses and don't play USGA tournaments, so I don't expect to ever be required to deal with a tournament ball.   But if I were then I'd use it where required.

The more this topic comes up, the more I think Nicklaus got it right.

Specifically, instead of playing different sets of tees, play different balls. The guy that plays from the tips has a ball that's shorter than the guy from the blues which is shorter than the one from the whites, etc.   Standardize on some marking that corresponds to the 'tee'.  

Saves on real estate, maintenance, etc.   No more 'which tees are we playing'. It's not perfect, but it's much closer to everyone having to play the same course.   And without such huge distance disparities it might even speed up play.

Course ratings and giving/getting strokes is based on the ball being played where it used to be based on tees.  

I would expect the ball companies to protest at first, but in the long run I think they might make more money once they figure out how to market the everyman balls being 'higher tech' than the 'tour' ball.
Pretty good thoughts I gotta give you credit for an intellegent thought. But I have said this many times before when this subject crops up from time to time. I think it will hurt the ball companies in the long run because there are so many Billions and billions of balls that conform to today's standards that no mainstream recreational golfer is going to suddenly junk dozens and dozens of balls. Really out of all the amateur golfers that play the game I would say less than 5% really play stipulated USGA comps. With that being said I will venture that the same percent of handicaps if you get really technical by the rules and being a rules Nazi are legit. Just my .02 FWIW

I agree with you that there are too many with economic interests in this to make it likely to take hold.   The only way it does would be for a place like Augusta to run out of space to expand and they mandate it, or the R&A does one day at St Andrews.    

I just happen to think Nicklaus' way makes the most sense of all the proposed solutions.    Any time change comes along there are some that will benefit and some that won't, whether in short or long term.


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#51 buckeyefl

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:18 PM

View PostBlkNGld, on 11 October 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

View Postbuckeyefl, on 10 October 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

View PostBlkNGld, on 10 October 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

I'll play whatever ball that the USGA/R&amp;A allow for handicap purposes, same as today.   But I only visit the tips on the shortest of courses and don't play USGA tournaments, so I don't expect to ever be required to deal with a tournament ball.   But if I were then I'd use it where required.

The more this topic comes up, the more I think Nicklaus got it right.

Specifically, instead of playing different sets of tees, play different balls.    The guy that plays from the tips has a ball that's shorter than the guy from the blues which is shorter than the one from the whites, etc.   Standardize on some marking that corresponds to the 'tee'.  

Saves on real estate, maintenance, etc.   No more 'which tees are we playing'.    It's not perfect, but it's much closer to everyone having to play the same course.   And without such huge distance disparities it might even speed up play.

Course ratings and giving/getting strokes is based on the ball being played where it used to be based on tees.  

I would expect the ball companies to protest at first, but in the long run I think they might make more money once they figure out how to market the everyman balls being 'higher tech' than the 'tour' ball.

Nothing personal but "play different balls" is not only not the answer but laughable. Also if you think it would stop people from playing the wrong tees then you dont know golfers very well.

The point is that you replace the tees with the ball.   There would in essence be only one set of tees.   That would be radical for many, but really ball technology is such that you wouldn't have to do that.    Maybe you have combine the men's tees into one and the senior/ladies tees into another.

It would no longer be a case of playing the wrong tees as much as the wrong ball.  

We've all encountered the guy that plays the tips when they should really be at the whites.   The possible beauty of this is that if those tees are combined into one, that person that insists on playing the 'pro' ball is going to outdriven by the person playing the proper ball.   Likely their ego won't handle that for very long.

Once again no and a dumb idea. Outside the box but dumb.

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#52 gvogel

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:19 PM

View Postpearsonified, on 09 October 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

Quote

You will...and it will be sooner than you think.

When I read this kind of nonsense, I imagine Grandpa Simpson out in the front yard, shaking his fist at a passing cloud.

The point about "old guys" is that old guys compete against other old guys, and that essentially levels the playing field as much as is necessary for them. (Of course, you still have long hitters and short hitters in that mix, as that's life.)

Oh, and then there's the whole "play the correct tees for your game" thing.

Bottom line: This whole debate is driven by an irrelevant fear of loss, as everyone would lose the exact same amount of distance under bifurcated ball rules.

And like I've already said, such a ruling would never affect any of us, as it would only be applied to young flatbellies trying to make the Tour (a la wooden bats in MLB versus college).

RELATIVITY is the only thing that matters here, and should bifurcation ever happen, no one on this site is going to lose anything relative to anyone else!

^ The voice of reason.  You said it better than I can.
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#53 gvogel

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:27 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 10 October 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

So is it a fair paraphrase to say you want to see the guys on TV play worse than they do. Preferably hit it shorter but definitely play worse one way or another. And ideally the guys on TV play worse while the rest of us don't play any worse.

Remarkable.

They wouldn't be playing any worse than they do now.  They would still be light years better than the rest of us.  It is simply the older golf courses which come out ahead.

This isn't me against the pros.  I know how gifted they are.  This is golf courses against the pros.
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#54 North Butte

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:28 PM

Let the golf courses fend for themselves, then.

Feel free to substitute "hit it shorter and more crooked" instead of "worse" if you like. Same meaning.
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#55 Uhit

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:35 PM

View Postgvogel, on 11 October 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

View Postpearsonified, on 09 October 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

Quote

You will...and it will be sooner than you think.

When I read this kind of nonsense, I imagine Grandpa Simpson out in the front yard, shaking his fist at a passing cloud.

The point about "old guys" is that old guys compete against other old guys, and that essentially levels the playing field as much as is necessary for them. (Of course, you still have long hitters and short hitters in that mix, as that's life.)

Oh, and then there's the whole "play the correct tees for your game" thing.

Bottom line: This whole debate is driven by an irrelevant fear of loss, as everyone would lose the exact same amount of distance under bifurcated ball rules.

And like I've already said, such a ruling would never affect any of us, as it would only be applied to young flatbellies trying to make the Tour (a la wooden bats in MLB versus college).

RELATIVITY is the only thing that matters here, and should bifurcation ever happen, no one on this site is going to lose anything relative to anyone else!

^ The voice of reason.  You said it better than I can.

Imagine, that you worked several years on your swing, that you are able to cut some dog legs, and to reach some par 5 in two.

Now, from one day to another, those things get lost...
...maybe also the interest in golf, if several years of work just vanish, and you are only older, with meanwhile next to no chance to close that suddenly appeared gap again.

Great!?


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#56 gvogel

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:37 PM

The original question was "which ball would I play?"

I would normally play the current ball, since I normally play a course that is a bit too long for me, as in there are 2 par 4's on each side that I cannot reach, and I rarely get a chance to hit a short iron.  On that course the grass is not mowed very low in the fairways, and so there isn't a lot of roll.  Quite often here in the Northeast the ground is soft, so no roll.  And I play a good bit in the spring and fall, with lower temperatures.

But there is an old course in my area which plays about 5,600 yards.  From time to time I play with my hickories on that course.  I can tell you that I am at least 20 yards shorter with my hickory driver, and often more.  So, that course would be a candidate for the shorter ball for me.  It would certainly put some teeth into that course.

For league play, I am going to play the modern ball, as I assume that no one would change.

If I were good enough to play in the New York State Amateur again, or Senior Amateur, and they wanted to hold the championship on an old shorter course and mandate the shorter ball, I would practice with the shorter ball for a couple of weeks and make the adjustment.

Heck, in October the ball goes shorter, behaves differently on pitch shots, and doesn't putt the same, compared to August.  One makes adjustments.
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#57 gvogel

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:39 PM

View PostUhit, on 11 October 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

View Postgvogel, on 11 October 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

View Postpearsonified, on 09 October 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

Quote

You will...and it will be sooner than you think.

When I read this kind of nonsense, I imagine Grandpa Simpson out in the front yard, shaking his fist at a passing cloud.

The point about "old guys" is that old guys compete against other old guys, and that essentially levels the playing field as much as is necessary for them. (Of course, you still have long hitters and short hitters in that mix, as that's life.)

Oh, and then there's the whole "play the correct tees for your game" thing.

Bottom line: This whole debate is driven by an irrelevant fear of loss, as everyone would lose the exact same amount of distance under bifurcated ball rules.

And like I've already said, such a ruling would never affect any of us, as it would only be applied to young flatbellies trying to make the Tour (a la wooden bats in MLB versus college).

RELATIVITY is the only thing that matters here, and should bifurcation ever happen, no one on this site is going to lose anything relative to anyone else!

^ The voice of reason.  You said it better than I can.

Imagine, that you worked several years on your swing, that you are able to cut some dog legs, and to reach some par 5 in two.

Now, from one day to another, those things get lost...
...maybe also the interest in golf, if several years of work just vanish, and you are only older, with meanwhile next to no chance to close that suddenly appeared gap again.

Great!?

No, you worked for distance.  Your distance relative to your peers will still be longer.

And if the tee markers are moved up, you still have a chance to carry the hazard.
On Sundays, I used to play hickory

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#58 pearsonified

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:52 PM

Few here seem to "get it"—any ruling on ball bifurcation would only affect professionals and NEVER your hackin' self.

If you are so hell-bent on playing what the pros play that you'd toss out 4-dozen ProV1s, you're an idiot.

If you play competitions that allow any ball but you still choose to play a dead one, you're an idiot.

Bottom line: Should the PGA ever adopt a "dead" ball, your personal game will NEVER be affected...unless you are so hard-headed that you force yourself to play precisely what they play, even if your club competitions (or drunken foursomes) allow you to play whatever the hell you want.

This is the ultimate non-issue.
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#59 Uhit

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:56 PM

View Postgvogel, on 11 October 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

View PostUhit, on 11 October 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

View Postgvogel, on 11 October 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

View Postpearsonified, on 09 October 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

Quote

You will...and it will be sooner than you think.

When I read this kind of nonsense, I imagine Grandpa Simpson out in the front yard, shaking his fist at a passing cloud.

The point about "old guys" is that old guys compete against other old guys, and that essentially levels the playing field as much as is necessary for them. (Of course, you still have long hitters and short hitters in that mix, as that's life.)

Oh, and then there's the whole "play the correct tees for your game" thing.

Bottom line: This whole debate is driven by an irrelevant fear of loss, as everyone would lose the exact same amount of distance under bifurcated ball rules.

And like I've already said, such a ruling would never affect any of us, as it would only be applied to young flatbellies trying to make the Tour (a la wooden bats in MLB versus college).

RELATIVITY is the only thing that matters here, and should bifurcation ever happen, no one on this site is going to lose anything relative to anyone else!

^ The voice of reason.  You said it better than I can.

Imagine, that you worked several years on your swing, that you are able to cut some dog legs, and to reach some par 5 in two.

Now, from one day to another, those things get lost...
...maybe also the interest in golf, if several years of work just vanish, and you are only older, with meanwhile next to no chance to close that suddenly appeared gap again.

Great!?

No, you worked for distance.  Your distance relative to your peers will still be longer.

And if the tee markers are moved up, you still have a chance to carry the hazard.
But if you are not that interested in the relative distance, but in real distance...
...and if the tee markers are not moved up?

The whole golf community (including the ball industry) and the majority of golf courses would have to change, just to leave some (very) old courses untouched.

Why not keep the rules as they are and allow those shorter courses to select the balls, which are allowed for local play (as a local rule)?

Edited by Uhit, 11 October 2017 - 01:57 PM.


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#60 gvogel

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:50 PM

View PostUhit, on 11 October 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:


But if you are not that interested in the relative distance, but in real distance...
...and if the tee markers are not moved up?

The whole golf community (including the ball industry) and the majority of golf courses would have to change, just to leave some (very) old courses untouched.

Why not keep the rules as they are and allow those shorter courses to select the balls, which are allowed for local play (as a local rule)?

A local rule works for me.  The first step is to outline the parameters of such a ball that would conform to the local rule, and have manufacturers develop and market said ball.

On Sundays, I used to play hickory

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