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Why don't more companies follow the K sig example?


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#31 BlkNGld

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 02:54 PM

View Postdoublepar93, on 08 October 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

If Titleist would have released the Avx at the same price point of the K-sig, they would have sold like crazy. Same with the Q star tour. I know many people who look for a great deal on a urethane ball. Why won't companies listen?

Let's assume Titleist did that.   Now ask yourself which model's sales would be most negatively affected and you'll have the answer to your question.


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#32 TravAz

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:44 AM

I dont give a %@ about marketing budgets, r&D costs, etc. I have not found a ball that spins anywhere close to the ksig around the greens for me. I have settled on the chromesoft because I like the yellow/black truevis, but hitting a nippy little pitch shot and watching it run out to the back if the green for 2x the price of a ksig pisses me off. Same with prov, tp5, etc etc for me.

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#33 Sean2

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 05:11 AM

View PostSnell Golf, on 10 October 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 08 October 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

A few years ago I read that a former employee of Titleist said the cost to Titleist to produce a dozen ProV's was $4.00. He further said that the packaging of the golf balls cost more than the golf ball production.

I don't know how true that is.
I can tell you this is no where near the truth... not even close....

I had my doubts. I poked around on the Internet but could find no data as to the actual cost to manufacturer a Pro V.
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#34 hybrid25

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 05:28 AM

View Posttdk8180, on 08 October 2017 - 06:55 PM, said:

Vice Balls...the Vice Pro Plus doesnt go anywhere for me.  Major distance problem.
I have found the same thing using the Srixon QST. I can't believe the lack of distance on some of my drives with this ball. I don't see that with the Titleist Pro V1 or the Bridgestone b330 RX.

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#35 ctay61983

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:07 AM

View PostJc0, on 08 October 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

View Postctay61983, on 08 October 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

K-sig model isn’t sustainable. At least it hasn’t proven to be yet. The big boys would be foolish to conform at this point.

The K-sig model is only sustainable for costco. I doubt they make any real profit on these. Costco makes their profits on the yearly fees. Everything else is low margin or at cost.

I agree with what you're saying for the overall Costco model but may not be for the golf ball market itself. Which would explain the shortage of the current K-sigs. It's widely assumed the next ball will be a different design as Costco will have to find another "over-run" or excess supply of quality cores.

All that is assuming they maintain the quality and price of the original K-Sig even if it is a different design internally.


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#36 Socrates

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:31 AM

View Postctay61983, on 11 October 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

View PostJc0, on 08 October 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

View Postctay61983, on 08 October 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

K-sig model isn’t sustainable. At least it hasn’t proven to be yet. The big boys would be foolish to conform at this point.

The K-sig model is only sustainable for costco. I doubt they make any real profit on these. Costco makes their profits on the yearly fees. Everything else is low margin or at cost.

I agree with what you're saying for the overall Costco model but may not be for the golf ball market itself. Which would explain the shortage of the current K-sigs. It's widely assumed the next ball will be a different design as Costco will have to find another "over-run" or excess supply of quality cores.

All that is assuming they maintain the quality and price of the original K-Sig even if it is a different design internally.
The fact that there are none available tells me that Costco can't find a supplier with enough balls (figuratively and literally) to supply them with the next K-Sig ball or at least at a quantity and price they are willing to go with.
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#37 Tcann32

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:34 AM

Costco is bigger than Titleist, who are the main culprit of the over priced ball market, and they can afford to sell golf balls at whatever price they want.

Titleist COULD sell their balls for much cheaper, and not risk losing any money, but they'd lose profit, and they can't afford that, at this point.

The base point of this: Almost any product you buy COULD be sold at a cheaper price, but if a manufacturer doesn't have to lower their price, and Titleist doesn't, then they won't. Other ball makers have to sell at lesser cost to get consumers to purchase something other than the main stay name brand of golf balls. Costco doesn't need to make any money on golf balls, so they just make a low margin on a temporary high volume of product, and keep moving forward.

Costco's business model doesn't even involve carrying a certain product for a long period of time. Once the manufacturer's surplus of whatever they're selling is gone, then they move on. Even though we're comparing golf balls to golf balls, it's still not apples to apples. We are comparing a retailer to a manufacturer.
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#38 BForrester

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:20 PM

View Postelwhippy, on 08 October 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:

The K-sig will appeal to a certain market. The V1 is a premium product. The majority of V1 users are OK with the price point. I know many players who refuse to even try Srixon or Callaway because they are absolutely convinced the V1 is always the best ball and must be magically different to other balls. They would actually mock someone using a K-sig.

It sounds like you know "many players" that are tools.
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#39 Nessism

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:30 PM

This thread is covering a lot of the same old discussion points as the other Ksig thread but I've got two questions for the haters:

1) If the Ksig is an "overrun," then what exact ball is it an overrun of?  It's not a quattro per the photo below.

2) If the $15/dozen is not doable then how come you can get Maxfli U6's for that price when they run a sale?


ksig vs quattro.JPG

Edited by Nessism, 11 October 2017 - 12:34 PM.

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#40 Socrates

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:33 PM

For many, they don't care what ball they play and really, they don't need to care.  For many though, they want the same ball with consistent results.  Not only from round to round, but year to year.

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#41 Bad9

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:31 PM

View PostSocrates, on 11 October 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

For many, they don't care what ball they play and really, they don't need to care.  For many though, they want the same ball with consistent results.  Not only from round to round, but year to year.

+1 This is why I have 8 dozen Duo's at home. When I decided it was a good ball for my game I buy a couple dozen when they go on sale at Golftown. I figure I have a 3-4yr stock on hand.

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#42 North Butte

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:36 PM

View PostNessism, on 11 October 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

This thread is covering a lot of the same old discussion points as the other Ksig thread but I've got two questions for the haters:

1) If the Ksig is an "overrun," then what exact ball is it an overrun of?  It's not a quattro per the photo below.

2) If the $15/dozen is not doable then how come you can get Maxfli U6's for that price when they run a sale?


Attachment ksig vs quattro.JPG

All that "overrun" stuff was just spin. The balls were available, people liked them. Now they're not available. The rest is just speculation and spin.
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#43 Bill Broderick

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:47 PM

If Titleist thought that they could sell a lower priced ball that would be profitable without cannibalizing other parts of their line, they would do so.  But, putting out a high quality, low priced ball would have a huge negative impact on the sales of their high quality, high priced balls.  A good chunk of the value of the Titleist brand is that they are a "premium ball".  Premium balls need to command a premium price or they stop being perceived as premium balls.  As soon as they start charging lower prices, the brand would lose value.

Look at it this way.  Could Mercedes Benz make and sell a car for $25,000 at a profit?  Most likely, they could.  But, doing so would make it much harder for them to get $35,000 for a C-Class much less $125,000 for an AMG GT Roadster,

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#44 Shilgy

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:05 PM

View PostNessism, on 11 October 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

This thread is covering a lot of the same old discussion points as the other Ksig thread but I've got two questions for the haters:

1) If the Ksig is an "overrun," then what exact ball is it an overrun of?  It's not a quattro per the photo below.

2) If the $15/dozen is not doable then how come you can get Maxfli U6's for that price when they run a sale?


Attachment ksig vs quattro.JPG
1)  Does it matter? If not an overrun than where is their stock?  I admit I am not a Costco buyer but I do believe they are a smartly run business.  If they were making profit on the Ksig and it was not an overrun then why discontinue it?

2) The standard price is $29.95 a dozen. Sometimes a brand will lower the price to get folks to try them-but I am guessing you know all of this.  I can get these brand new for $389.  Does that mean if Nike would have sold them at that price initially they would still be selling clubs?
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#45 Nessism

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 05:49 PM

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

1) If not an overrun than where is their stock?  I admit I am not a Costco buyer but I do believe they are a smartly run business.  If they were making profit on the Ksig and it was not an overrun then why discontinue it?

You are one of the guys that said Ksig's were "overruns," but you have not offered up any evidence or even a suggestion of what ball they supposedly are.

As to why Costco discontinued the ball, I don't think they did.  I believe they would be in the stores TODAY if Nassau would resume production.

Edited by Nessism, 11 October 2017 - 05:49 PM.

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#46 new2g0lf

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 06:22 PM

Consumer mindset is conditioned to believe that price is directly related to quality / performance.  While there are a number of bargain shoppers out there, many consumer studies have demonstrated that given the choice between 2 products that are relatively unknown by the consumer many will choose the more expensive product (so long as it isn't prohibitively more expensive) because they perceive it will be "better".  

Premium golf balls sell at the $40 - $50 price range and many golfers are willing to pay that price.  All the manufacturers play nice and keep their premium golf ball prices close to each other (except for specials) so there's little motivation for any of them to break that practice in hope of selling more golf balls at a lower per unit margin.

Costco was using the KSig as a loss leader to gain market share, present added value to their members and to attract new members.  They were likely making minimal margins on the golf balls in hopes of increasing their member base and sales of other products.  Had this community and other golf sites not created so much hype over the KSig they would have likely been a flop and would still be sitting on Costco shelves.  It was a great example of a viral marketing campaign that worked to perfection.  

Vice, Cut, Snell and others are offering quality golf balls at a cheaper price but they lack brand awareness, shelf space and overall premium golf ball market appeal to have a significant influence on the major premium golf ball manufacturers.  Plus a large portion of consumers will dismiss them based on the idea that if they are cheaper they aren't as good.

Edited by new2g0lf, 11 October 2017 - 06:23 PM.


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#47 Nessism

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 06:46 PM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 October 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

Costco was using the KSig as a loss leader to gain market share, present added value to their members and to attract new members.  

I liked your post until this part which is pure speculation.  If you are going to guess than just say as much.
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#48 _Stormin_

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:51 AM

View PostNessism, on 11 October 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 October 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

Costco was using the KSig as a loss leader to gain market share, present added value to their members and to attract new members.  
I liked your post until this part which is pure speculation.  If you are going to guess than just say as much.
Everything but "to gain market share" makes sense. You don't gain market share by having a product on your shelf that you can't restock. You bring in that product to make money, and yeah, to offer more to the people that choose to patronize your business. Market share is nothing in a consumable, if the customer can't come back and buy your product again.

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#49 TsarBomba

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:35 AM

View Post_Stormin_, on 12 October 2017 - 03:51 AM, said:

View PostNessism, on 11 October 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 October 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

Costco was using the KSig as a loss leader to gain market share, present added value to their members and to attract new members.  
I liked your post until this part which is pure speculation.  If you are going to guess than just say as much.
Everything but "to gain market share" makes sense. You don't gain market share by having a product on your shelf that you can't restock. You bring in that product to make money, and yeah, to offer more to the people that choose to patronize your business. Market share is nothing in a consumable, if the customer can't come back and buy your product again.

If evaluated as typical...but this scenario was interesting with the crazy demand. I'm guessing Costco gained quite a few new customers who will return now for other stuff. If you read back through the Ksig thread, there was a huge misperception of Costco by peeps who had never set foot in one...they just assumed it was basically Big-Lots or Shopco

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#50 Shilgy

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:50 PM

View PostNessism, on 11 October 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 October 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

Costco was using the KSig as a loss leader to gain market share, present added value to their members and to attract new members.  

I liked your post until this part which is pure speculation.  If you are going to guess than just say as much.
No more speculation than your post saying Nassau just needed to resume production.  The fact that no one else, not even the direct to consumer model Snell or Vice, regularly sells balls at $15 per dozen at the very least implies it is not a sustainable model.  If Nassau was able to sell them to Costco at what was likely the cost then they would continue to do so. If Costco could continue selling them at that price from that cost then they would continue. So somewhere along the chain a link broke. Or more likely they were overrruns of something.
  Overruns is not a negative terminology. Costco was able to use this ball, no matter where they got it, to either make a few bucks of the ball or increase traffic in their stores. Both are a win for the Costco brand.

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#51 Nessism

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:04 PM

View PostShilgy, on 12 October 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

View PostNessism, on 11 October 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 October 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

Costco was using the KSig as a loss leader to gain market share, present added value to their members and to attract new members.  

I liked your post until this part which is pure speculation.  If you are going to guess than just say as much.
No more speculation than your post saying Nassau just needed to resume production.  The fact that no one else, not even the direct to consumer model Snell or Vice, regularly sells balls at $15 per dozen at the very least implies it is not a sustainable model.  If Nassau was able to sell them to Costco at what was likely the cost then they would continue to do so. If Costco could continue selling them at that price from that cost then they would continue. So somewhere along the chain a link broke. Or more likely they were overrruns of something.
  Overruns is not a negative terminology. Costco was able to use this ball, no matter where they got it, to either make a few bucks of the ball or increase traffic in their stores. Both are a win for the Costco brand.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens with Costco and golf balls.  I'll be glad to serve you a crow sandwich if Ksig2 hits the stores at the same price or very close to the original.  U6's can be had for $20/dozen quite regularly so I'm not convinced it can't be done.
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#52 new2g0lf

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:12 AM

View PostNessism, on 11 October 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 October 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

Costco was using the KSig as a loss leader to gain market share, present added value to their members and to attract new members.  

I liked your post until this part which is pure speculation.  If you are going to guess than just say as much.

Admittedly it's a bit of speculation and some industry insider opinion.  No golf ball company sells new premium balls for $15 per dozen, there isn't enough profit margin for the distribution chain to make it enticing.

You mentioned the MaxFli U6 in a later post but failed to acknowledge these are being heavily discounted to dump stock because they have been replaced by the UFli which sell for $35 per dozen.  

Will Costco sell another $15 per dozen premium ball, it's possible but I doubt it will perform as well as the original KSig and if it does then again it will not be sustainable.  Cut, Vice, MG are all selling premium golf balls that are mass manufactured overseas but none can get close to the $15 per dozen price point.  Costco could certainly negotiate a lower price with a large quantity order but I'm still not sure that gets them down to $15 per dozen.

Edited by new2g0lf, 13 October 2017 - 09:13 AM.


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#53 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:18 AM

I think lots of companies do "follow the K-Sig example". There's Cut and Vice and MG and other outfits which order up a bunch of white-label balls from Korea or Taiwan and sell them direct for cheap. And there are always ample deals on discontinued, overstock  or orphaned models from the major brand being cleared out for 20-30 cents on the dollar.

Those are *exactly*  what "the K-Sig example" represents. It's just that nobody else is equipped to do it for as cheaply as Costco while also having a built-in audience of members waiting to pounce on it. That's the Costco difference, nobody can compete with Costco when it comes to low margins, mass volume and minimal need for paid marketing or advertising.
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#54 Shilgy

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 10:38 AM

View PostNessism, on 12 October 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 12 October 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

View PostNessism, on 11 October 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 11 October 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

Costco was using the KSig as a loss leader to gain market share, present added value to their members and to attract new members.  

I liked your post until this part which is pure speculation.  If you are going to guess than just say as much.
No more speculation than your post saying Nassau just needed to resume production.  The fact that no one else, not even the direct to consumer model Snell or Vice, regularly sells balls at $15 per dozen at the very least implies it is not a sustainable model.  If Nassau was able to sell them to Costco at what was likely the cost then they would continue to do so. If Costco could continue selling them at that price from that cost then they would continue. So somewhere along the chain a link broke. Or more likely they were overrruns of something.
  Overruns is not a negative terminology. Costco was able to use this ball, no matter where they got it, to either make a few bucks of the ball or increase traffic in their stores. Both are a win for the Costco brand.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens with Costco and golf balls.  I'll be glad to serve you a crow sandwich if Ksig2 hits the stores at the same price or very close to the original.  U6's can be had for $20/dozen quite regularly so I'm not convinced it can't be done.
May I serve you one if the price is higher and/or the quality is not nearly the same? For that matter if they still cannot stock the #2 any better than they did #1?  The stock issue is not because they sold so many a manufacturer could not keep up. They ran out it would seem. And what would they run out of?
  The U6 can be had for $20 occasionally. That is 33% more than $15.  If you had a $30k budget for a car would you consider $40k close enough?
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#55 trackcoach13

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 01:22 PM

For those interested the KSig is back in stock. You have to be a Costco member to order:

https://www.costco.c...rid=2:122510973


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#56 NFD

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 10:09 PM

I thought I read somewhere that the Vice, k-sig, Callaway, and TM were all made at the same factory
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#57 bladehunter

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 10:29 PM

cant wait to see an old K sig and a new K sig cut open side by side.,...  if someone has both and cant cut them id be glad to buy both balls and do the cutting to see whats in the middle
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#58 grm24

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 10:39 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 19 October 2017 - 10:29 PM, said:

cant wait to see an old K sig and a new K sig cut open side by side.,...  if someone has both and cant cut them id be glad to buy both balls and do the cutting to see whats in the middle
Already been done and posted in the K-Sig thread. Same ball.

http://www.golfwrx.c...0#entry16329822

Edited by grm24, 19 October 2017 - 10:42 PM.


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#59 bigeasy

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 08:04 PM

Costco is a market leader in low prices, it just goes to show you what the actual mark up is on golf balls. i just bought some pain and allergy medicine, saved $30 on the allergy med plus got 65 more tablets and got twice the product for half price on the pain meds, Its the same with golf balls.
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#60 Shilgy

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 09:46 PM

View Postbigeasy, on 21 October 2017 - 08:04 PM, said:

Costco is a market leader in low prices, it just goes to show you what the actual mark up is on golf balls. i just bought some pain and allergy medicine, saved $30 on the allergy med plus got 65 more tablets and got twice the product for half price on the pain meds, Its the same with golf balls.
Where can I purchase these great balls?

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To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

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