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Matthew Southgate on freak incident that cost him PGA Tour card - 'I only have myself to blame'


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#31 BirdiesnBrews

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 03:35 PM

What rule is being violated. Just wondering.


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#32 Vindog

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 05:15 PM

View PostBirdiesnBrews, on 11 October 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

What rule is being violated. Just wondering.

http://www.usga.org/...l#!rule-19,19-1

Rule 19 - Ball in Motion Deflected or Stopped

19-1. By Outside Agency


If a player's ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency, it is a rub of the green, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, except:


b.
If a player's ball in motion after a stroke on the putting green is deflected or stopped by, or comes to rest in or on, any moving or animate outside agency, except a worm, insect or the like, the stroke is canceled. The ball must be replaced and replayed.
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#33 jonsnow

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:23 PM

View PostVindog, on 11 October 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

View PostBirdiesnBrews, on 11 October 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

What rule is being violated. Just wondering.

http://www.usga.org/...l#!rule-19,19-1

Rule 19 - Ball in Motion Deflected or Stopped

19-1. By Outside Agency


If a player's ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency, it is a rub of the green, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, except:


b.
If a player's ball in motion after a stroke on the putting green is deflected or stopped by, or comes to rest in or on, any moving or animate outside agency, except a worm, insect or the like, the stroke is canceled. The ball must be replaced and replayed.

Is this a recent change or amendment to the rules? I distinctly remember the same thing happening to Mickelson several years ago in the Masters on #2 except that it was one of those wormy looking pine stamens rather than a leaf that blew into his path & deflected the ball.

EDIT: Didn't see Finbarr's posts on page 1 before posting this. Sorry...

Edited by jonsnow, 12 October 2017 - 02:29 PM.

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#34 Hankshank

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:42 PM

View PostVindog, on 11 October 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

View PostBirdiesnBrews, on 11 October 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

What rule is being violated. Just wondering.

http://www.usga.org/...l#!rule-19,19-1

Rule 19 - Ball in Motion Deflected or Stopped

19-1. By Outside Agency


If a player's ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency, it is a rub of the green, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, except:


b.
If a player's ball in motion after a stroke on the putting green is deflected or stopped by, or comes to rest in or on, any moving or animate outside agency, except a worm, insect or the like, the stroke is canceled. The ball must be replaced and replayed.
"worm, insect or the like". Not a playful dog, dropped club or a wayward ball rolling onto the green, reasons which I suppose are the ground for this rule. A leaf, moved by the wind is closer to a worm than to a dog, I reacted exactly like Southgate and would have done the same as he did (not that that rule has ever been in question during the 36 years I have been playing golf). Matt has nothing to be ashamed of IMO.

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#35 cardoustie

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:47 PM

there is no rules consistency

A leaf (not a Toronto Maple Leaf ... even though I've played with a few of them) can interfere on a green but not in a bunker you say .... c'mon lads let's simplify

Edited by cardoustie, 12 October 2017 - 02:49 PM.

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#36 youraway2

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:01 PM

View PostHankshank, on 12 October 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

View PostVindog, on 11 October 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

View PostBirdiesnBrews, on 11 October 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

What rule is being violated. Just wondering.

http://www.usga.org/...l#!rule-19,19-1

Rule 19 - Ball in Motion Deflected or Stopped

19-1. By Outside Agency


If a player's ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency, it is a rub of the green, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, except:


b.
If a player's ball in motion after a stroke on the putting green is deflected or stopped by, or comes to rest in or on, any moving or animate outside agency, except a worm, insect or the like, the stroke is canceled. The ball must be replaced and replayed.
"worm, insect or the like". Not a playful dog, dropped club or a wayward ball rolling onto the green, reasons which I suppose are the ground for this rule. A leaf, moved by the wind is closer to a worm than to a dog, I reacted exactly like Southgate and would have done the same as he did (not that that rule has ever been in question during the 36 years I have been playing golf). Matt has nothing to be ashamed of IMO.
I have written the USGA more than once about applying a Decision from Rule 18, Ball at Rest Moved by a blowing tumbleweed, and calling the tumbleweed an Outside Agency, and then applying that Decision to Rule 19, ball in motion on the green path altered by an Outside Agency. The USGA provided me with a through explanation how they determined a "Loose Impediment" and "Outside Agency" in certain unusual situations. Even though I don't agree with them, they did evaluate this Decision in Rule 18 and provided me with an explanation.  Therefore I move on from there and understand how they determined, why the Decision needs to be written as is.

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#37 bladehunter

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:02 PM

why does the worm exception exist?   60 year old politics would be my guess... just has to be a story behind an exception like that
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#38 jonsnow

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:13 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 12 October 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

why does the worm exception exist?   60 year old politics would be my guess... just has to be a story behind an exception like that

Maybe the exception is for the worm in Diana Murphy's tequila bottle?
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#39 Vindog

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:21 PM

You guys.  The Worm exception exists for when Dennis Rodman comes out and blocks your putt.  Rub of the green.  Or maybe he'll rub the green, who knows.  He's a little weird and such..

Edited by Vindog, 12 October 2017 - 09:23 PM.

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#40 WidespreadPanic

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:21 PM

that absolutely sucks, but he absolutely should have asked a rules official how to proceed before tapping the ball in.

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#41 sui generis

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:36 PM

View PostWidespreadPanic, on 12 October 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

that absolutely sucks, but he absolutely should have asked a rules official how to proceed before tapping the ball in.

The player had THREE chances to avoid ANY penalty strokes:
1) Know the Rules (part of the job), or
2) Ask for help from the Committee, or
3) Play a second ball under R3-3.
Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#42 Chewey85

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 09:29 PM

Crazy when you think about it. That leaf could have possibly cost him millions.

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#43 sui generis

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 09:54 PM

View PostChewey85, on 14 October 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

Crazy when you think about it. That leaf could have possibly cost him millions.

What's crazy is it wasn't the leaf.

If indeed it's "millions," the leaf was not at fault. The player had THREE chances:

1) Know the Rule, after all it's in his job description to know the Rules, right?
2) Seek help from the Committee, it'd only take a couple of minutes.
3) Play a second ball under R3-3 and sort it out later.

So, was it the leaf? ;)
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#44 grm24

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 09:54 PM

View PostChewey85, on 14 October 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

Crazy when you think about it. That leaf could have possibly cost him millions.
At least he has the fallback of having his European Tour card for next season.

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#45 bladehunter

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 10:26 PM

View Postsui generis, on 14 October 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

View PostChewey85, on 14 October 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

Crazy when you think about it. That leaf could have possibly cost him millions.

What's crazy is it wasn't the leaf.

If indeed it's "millions," the leaf was not at fault. The player had THREE chances:

1) Know the Rule, after all it's in his job description to know the Rules, right?
2) Seek help from the Committee, it'd only take a couple of minutes.
3) Play a second ball under R3-3 and sort it out later.

So, was it the leaf? ;)


still a leaf....  

and ill contest further...  pitty it wasnt a worm... hed have a tour card now....  lol  (palms face)  breaks record for most ignorant rule ever.....spirit of the rule is to help the player yet somehow it not only doesnt help , it causes further damage by causing incorrect card.... its high time the tours who use instant replay institute a delaying card signing and a cutoff for penalty via replay...

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#46 Dpavs

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 10:39 PM

I kind of wonder... for those who have said they think the rule should present an option to replace the ball rather than require it.... would you feel the same way if the ball was going to miss the hole but was pushed into it by a leaf?

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#47 bladehunter

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 11:20 PM

View PostDpavs, on 14 October 2017 - 10:39 PM, said:

I kind of wonder... for those who have said they think the rule should present an option to replace the ball rather than require it.... would you feel the same way if the ball was going to miss the hole but was pushed into it by a leaf?


yes... same difference as ball knocked in by spike  mark vs knocked out ..pure chance

Edited by bladehunter, 14 October 2017 - 11:20 PM.

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#48 sui generis

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 06:15 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 14 October 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

View Postsui generis, on 14 October 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

View PostChewey85, on 14 October 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

Crazy when you think about it. That leaf could have possibly cost him millions.

What's crazy is it wasn't the leaf.

If indeed it's "millions," the leaf was not at fault. The player had THREE chances:

1) Know the Rule, after all it's in his job description to know the Rules, right?
2) Seek help from the Committee, it'd only take a couple of minutes.
3) Play a second ball under R3-3 and sort it out later.

So, was it the leaf? ;)


still a leaf....  

and ill contest further...  pitty it wasnt a worm... hed have a tour card now....  lol  (palms face)  breaks record for most ignorant rule ever.....spirit of the rule is to help the player yet somehow it not only doesnt help , it causes further damage by causing incorrect card.... its high time the tours who use instant replay institute a delaying card signing and a cutoff for penalty via replay...

Agree, playing golf outdoors cannot be any fun and shouldn't be permitted. :swoon:
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#49 SurfDuffer

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 06:44 AM

View PostDpavs, on 14 October 2017 - 10:39 PM, said:

I kind of wonder... for those who have said they think the rule should present an option to replace the ball rather than require it.... would you feel the same way if the ball was going to miss the hole but was pushed into it by a leaf?

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#50 Vindog

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 07:16 AM

View PostDpavs, on 14 October 2017 - 10:39 PM, said:

I kind of wonder... for those who have said they think the rule should present an option to replace the ball rather than require it.... would you feel the same way if the ball was going to miss the hole but was pushed into it by a leaf?

I personally don't go as far as suggesting that there be an option for the player, but I do feel that if simplification/modernization is what we're going for then maybe this could be a rub of the green situation.

That said, as unfortunate as it is, I do not at all fell bad for Southgate.  I carry a rulebook in my bag, it's pretty easy to do so.  Or ask your FC, or ask a rules official.  Ask Kevarter about the rules seminars he ran for the pros, and how many players actually showed up.  I can't fault the rule.

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#51 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 07:27 AM

View PostDpavs, on 14 October 2017 - 10:39 PM, said:

I kind of wonder... for those who have said they think the rule should present an option to replace the ball rather than require it.... would you feel the same way if the ball was going to miss the hole but was pushed into it by a leaf?
Yes and that's why it's called an option. A natural part of the golf course, a leaf, moved by a natural force like wind, should be a rub of the green.

This was just another example of a rule and enforcement  that make the sport sometimes look like a joke.

Edited by BlackDiamondPar5, 15 October 2017 - 07:42 AM.


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#52 sui generis

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 07:45 AM

View PostBlackDiamondPar5, on 15 October 2017 - 07:27 AM, said:

View PostDpavs, on 14 October 2017 - 10:39 PM, said:

I kind of wonder... for those who have said they think the rule should present an option to replace the ball rather than require it.... would you feel the same way if the ball was going to miss the hole but was pushed into it by a leaf?
Yes and that's why it's called an option.

This was just another example of a rule and enforcement  that make the sport sometimes look like a joke.

Many sports are unfathomable to those who don't know their rules. Go watch a cricket match sometime. Fans of cricket don't care that you or I might think it's a "joke."

"Choosies" are quite limited. The RBs seem to view "choosies" as a last resort. Players, of course, clamour for anything that makes a good or bad break go their way. ;)

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#53 drbonesvt

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 08:03 AM

Never saw an answer to this - what's diff about phils masters put AND , all those people watching no one knew the rule either?

Phils case did it matter that it landed on the green vs this poor guys leaf hitting the actual ball?
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#54 Vindog

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 08:28 AM

View Postdrbonesvt, on 15 October 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

Never saw an answer to this - what's diff about phils masters put AND , all those people watching no one knew the rule either?

Phils case did it matter that it landed on the green vs this poor guys leaf hitting the actual ball?

Two things different.  Phil's object was in place before the stroke was made, and it was not moving when it hit Phil's ball.  If you think about it, the rule is there to allow the player a re-putt due to things out of his control.  Had he known the rule, and as good as these guys are, he could have drained the next putt  :dntknw:  Make it rub of the green, and he's stuck with a deflected ball.

Still, in the interest of simplifying, it could be played as it lies, even though it takes away from helping the player.
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#55 bladehunter

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 09:05 AM

View Postsui generis, on 15 October 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 14 October 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

View Postsui generis, on 14 October 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

View PostChewey85, on 14 October 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

Crazy when you think about it. That leaf could have possibly cost him millions.

What's crazy is it wasn't the leaf.

If indeed it's "millions," the leaf was not at fault. The player had THREE chances:

1) Know the Rule, after all it's in his job description to know the Rules, right?
2) Seek help from the Committee, it'd only take a couple of minutes.
3) Play a second ball under R3-3 and sort it out later.

So, was it the leaf? ;)


still a leaf....  

and ill contest further...  pitty it wasnt a worm... hed have a tour card now....  lol  (palms face)  breaks record for most ignorant rule ever.....spirit of the rule is to help the player yet somehow it not only doesnt help , it causes further damage by causing incorrect card.... its high time the tours who use instant replay institute a delaying card signing and a cutoff for penalty via replay...

Agree, playing golf outdoors cannot be any fun and shouldn't be permitted. :swoon:


The issue here is that this is one of those rules that doesn't jump out as a rules issue at all.  It doesn't prompt one to look at the book in their bag or call an official over.  Why ?  Because unless you've memorized every rule this doesn't seem like it would be anything other than bad luck.    

  I'm playing today. And I'm going to pay attention to putts and leaves.  If it happens Should I cal it out and help another guy ? Or let it go ?  Guaranteed nobody will know the rule.  And Not believe me when I claim it is one.  And I'm playing with 2 teaching pros of over 40 years each

.  .  The only person I've heard recognize this as a rule yet are the rules officials here.  And I understand that.  But you should understand that 99.9% of players of this game will not see this as a rules issue. Not think to seek a ruling.  Just think " hey  that stupid leaf hit me.  "And tap it in.

Edited by bladehunter, 15 October 2017 - 09:06 AM.

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#56 Dpavs

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 10:51 AM

How about a ball in motion being deflected by crawling bug into the hole?

How about a ball at rest being bumped by a squirrel and it goes in the hole?

My question is where do you draw the line? These are all a matter of chance or luck but there has to be a line at some point where you say the ball needs to be replaced or replayed don't you?

Edited by Dpavs, 15 October 2017 - 10:51 AM.


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#57 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 02:33 PM

View PostDpavs, on 15 October 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

How about a ball in motion being deflected by crawling bug into the hole?

How about a ball at rest being bumped by a squirrel and it goes in the hole?

My question is where do you draw the line? These are all a matter of chance or luck but there has to be a line at some point where you say the ball needs to be replaced or replayed don't you?
19.1B only adds ambiguity.  I just don't see a blowing leaf, bugs and worms being different from each other but B does.  --- In reality I just believe all should be treated as rub of the green and not even replayed.

Yesterday I was playing on greens covered by leaves and maple whirlybirds and honestly it would be impossible to determine if my ball was deflected by one stationary leaf or one in motion.

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#58 Gnomesteel

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 02:47 PM

View PostMr. Herbert, on 08 October 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

View PostScotty1140, on 08 October 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

View PostPGArox, on 08 October 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I would think a touring pro would spend at least some of his idle time examining the rules.
This might be one of the stupidest ‘rules’ in golf. No wonder golf struggles to attract new people tithe game with rules like this.

Exactly how many people do you think have decided not to take up the game because of this rule or rules like it?

(I'll give you a hint, the answer is zero)

While it’s not exactly because of that rule I’ve seen kids lose interest in golf quickly because of the rules. I’m a volunteer coach at The First Tee and teaching them the rules is brutal. Even had one kid who watched the US Open debacle with DJ ask me about it the next day. He thought it was “dumb” and clearly made him think less of the sport.

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#59 smeech8000

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 12:40 PM

To those that feel this is a "stupid rule", you do realize that it is one that exists to PROTECT the player, right?

IMO, the basis of the rule is that anything substantial enough to influence the ball that occurs after the player has evaluated and planned their shot should not stand to penalize or benefit the player.  Of course, the times these phenomena help the player (compared to hurting) is in the extreme minority, hence why I believe the rule overall is one that protects the player.

Southgate responded honorably, but what else should we expect?  He is a paid professional after all... as a CPA should I not be expected to understand Generally Accepted Auditing Standards in order to conduct a proper audit or the Internal Revenue Code so as to properly prepare a tax return?  He should've known the rule or at least been aware of his option to ask an official for guidance in the absence of his own knowledge.  To chalk it up as a rub of the green is ignorant and defeatist given his position in the tournament at the time.

I also agree that this rule should not be modified to permit the player a choice.  This seems to be one of the fundamental tenets of the RoG, despite the fact that a few situations DO exist in there, as sui posted above.

Edited by smeech8000, 16 October 2017 - 12:40 PM.

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#60 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 02:03 PM

View Postsmeech8000, on 16 October 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

To those that feel this is a "stupid rule", you do realize that it is one that exists to PROTECT the player, right?

IMO, the basis of the rule is that anything substantial enough to influence the ball that occurs after the player has evaluated and planned their shot should not stand to penalize or benefit the player.  Of course, the times these phenomena help the player (compared to hurting) is in the extreme minority, hence why I believe the rule overall is one that protects the player.

Southgate responded honorably, but what else should we expect?  He is a paid professional after all... as a CPA should I not be expected to understand Generally Accepted Auditing Standards in order to conduct a proper audit or the Internal Revenue Code so as to properly prepare a tax return?  He should've known the rule or at least been aware of his option to ask an official for guidance in the absence of his own knowledge.  To chalk it up as a rub of the green is ignorant and defeatist given his position in the tournament at the time.

I also agree that this rule should not be modified to permit the player a choice.  This seems to be one of the fundamental tenets of the RoG, despite the fact that a few situations DO exist in there, as sui posted above.
So now you have to use insulting terms like "defeatist" and "ignorant" since you can't see the other side of the argument?

Why is a worm or bug treated differently than a leaf? What about a playful dog or small child? Furthermore If there are many leaves on the green how do you determine if it was one moving that caused a deflection rather than a stationary leaf? How much movement does there have to to be considered a deflection? I played greens this weekend that were covered with many leaves on the line and it would have been impossible to determine if one moving caused a ball to go off line vs a stationary leaf.


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