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Matthew Southgate on freak incident that cost him PGA Tour card - 'I only have myself to blame'


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#1 OldTomMorris

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 10:17 AM

http://www.telegraph...tour-card-have/

Credit to him for being so rational and honourable about this situation. I guess when you've battled cancer you have perspective.

I personally like the stringent rules of our game as I believe its directly contributed to the high levels of integrity, if there were more rules that were open to interpretation then I think things could be different.

Of course the rules aren't perfect and can continually be improved.

Edited by OldTomMorris, 08 October 2017 - 11:23 AM.


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#2 PGArox

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 10:41 AM

I would think a touring pro would spend at least some of his idle time examining the rules.

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#3 KYMAR

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 10:48 AM

Great attitude from this kid! Absolutely brutal circumstance.
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#4 OldTomMorris

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 10:52 AM

 PGArox, on 08 October 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I would think a touring pro would spend at least some of his idle time examining the rules.

Its a great point, considering how much the modern professional does in terms of preparation surely a superior understanding of the rules must be a consideration. Plenty of time travelling that could be spent reviewing the rules.

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#5 BarronDDS

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 10:54 AM

 PGArox, on 08 October 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I would think a touring pro would spend at least some of his idle time examining the rules.
but perhaps the dumbest rule in golf!


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#6 manku

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 11:12 AM

I would ask a rule official anytime ANYTHING happens out of the ordinary during my round.  That's what they're there for.

It's not like your going to slow the pace down any further!

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#7 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 11:29 AM

Just another example of a rule and enforcement that makes the sport sometimes look like a joke.

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#8 snizzle

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 11:47 AM

Most of these guys get caught because they are in one of the final groups that gets all the tv coverage.  I would think this stuff happens all the time in every tournament but since the camera wasn't there it didn't happen.  Should have a rules official on every hole and the PGA pro should be charged a nominal fee each tournament to cover the cost.  The official can easily answer questions on each hole and keep the play moving along.  Maybe that's what is supposed to happen but I don't see it on my screen.

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#9 Scotty1140

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 11:53 AM

 PGArox, on 08 October 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I would think a touring pro would spend at least some of his idle time examining the rules.
This might be one of the stupidest ‘rules’ in golf. No wonder golf struggles to attract new people tithe game with rules like this.

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#10 manku

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 12:11 PM

 snizzle, on 08 October 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

Most of these guys get caught because they are in one of the final groups that gets all the tv coverage.  I would think this stuff happens all the time in every tournament but since the camera wasn't there it didn't happen.  Should have a rules official on every hole and the PGA pro should be charged a nominal fee each tournament to cover the cost.  The official can easily answer questions on each hole and keep the play moving along.  Maybe that's what is supposed to happen but I don't see it on my screen.

Actually, this being the PGA tour, they can probably get people to "volunteer" for that position...why pay for something when it's free!

I wasn't aware that the USGA rules officials are all volunteers...while working the Amateur/Walker this summer, I spoke to a number of them (those walking with the groups).  Not only do they not get paid, but they actually are 100% out of pocket for travel (one from Texas, another from Virginia).    And to think I felt like a bit of a heel dropping $75 to volunteer!


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#11 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 01:25 PM

 Scotty1140, on 08 October 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

 PGArox, on 08 October 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I would think a touring pro would spend at least some of his idle time examining the rules.
This might be one of the stupidest ‘rules’ in golf. No wonder golf struggles to attract new people tithe game with rules like this.
This goes right up there with kneeling on a towel is considered building a base.... Actually it's even dumber.

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#12 Bushwood Country Club

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 01:32 PM

 OldTomMorris, on 08 October 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

http://www.telegraph...tour-card-have/

Credit to him for being so rational and honourable about this situation. I guess when you've battled cancer you have perspective.

I personally like the stringent rules of our game as I believe its directly contributed to the high levels of integrity, if there were more rules that were open to interpretation then I think things could be different.

Of course the rules aren't perfect and can continually be improved.
and then, there is this from the 2010 Masters....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bc2HC3Q-GQ
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#13 Sean2

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 01:44 PM

 BlackDiamondPar5, on 08 October 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

Just another example of a rule and enforcement that makes the sport sometimes look like a joke.

No doubt about it.

Mr. Southgate handled it extremely well, and I am sure he will secure his card in the future.
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#14 Hankshank

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 02:15 PM

I do not exactly agree with you, gentlemen.

I do of course maintain that the rules are to be followed. But that he should be "embarrassed" is plainly stupid. The rule 19-1 b is quite peripheral, I have during 35 year of golf never come close to a situation where that rule has become applicable. And it is the sign of a stupid person to learn all the golf rules by heart. It's like when you hear old grumpy officials going on by "rules are rules and should be followed". An intelligent person will act in a manner that seems logical and check rules if you feel that you come close to the borders. And what Southgate did is what 95% of non rulescrutinizing golfers would have done.

The rule, 19-1 b, at least in the scandinavian translation, is also not clear - it excludes "insects, worms or something similar". You would expect that the rule was construed due to playful dogs going after balls on green or something like that. But a leaf is more close to a worm than to a dog. In my humble opinion.

Edited by Hankshank, 08 October 2017 - 02:15 PM.


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#15 JerseyBoy

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 02:31 PM

That rule is dumb, BUT I agree that anytime anything out of the ordinary happen in a competitive round, the player should just call a rules official over to evaluate what happened. His lack of knowledge of the rule itself is hardly how it should be. To lose your opportunity for your Tour Card over something like THAT is not only heartbreaking, but absolutely ridiculous in my book. He deserved his Tour Card.Period.

That being said, we seen crazier things like what happened to Lexi. Happily that situation caused a rules change, but my take is it shouldn't have to effect a player like that for someone to take a hard look at the rules.


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#16 Mr. Herbert

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 02:52 PM

 Scotty1140, on 08 October 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

 PGArox, on 08 October 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I would think a touring pro would spend at least some of his idle time examining the rules.
This might be one of the stupidest ‘rules’ in golf. No wonder golf struggles to attract new people tithe game with rules like this.

Exactly how many people do you think have decided not to take up the game because of this rule or rules like it?

(I'll give you a hint, the answer is zero)

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#17 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 02:58 PM

 Mr. Herbert, on 08 October 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

 Scotty1140, on 08 October 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

 PGArox, on 08 October 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I would think a touring pro would spend at least some of his idle time examining the rules.
This might be one of the stupidest ‘rules’ in golf. No wonder golf struggles to attract new people tithe game with rules like this.

Exactly how many people do you think have decided not to take up the game because of this rule or rules like it?

(I'll give you a hint, the answer is zero)
Agreed its probably zero. But it's one of the reasons many opt not to play tournament golf.

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#18 golfgirlrobin

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 03:05 PM

It seems like a strange rule to me.  I know the rules pretty well but I would have assumed that something like a leaf was just rub of the green.  

Not sure why anyone would want to get rid of the rule, though.  It gives you a second chance at a putt you've probably missed.
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#19 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 03:08 PM

 golfgirlrobin, on 08 October 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

It seems like a strange rule to me.  I know the rules pretty well but I would have assumed that something like a leaf was just rub of the green.  

Not sure why anyone would want to get rid of the rule, though.  It gives you a second chance at a putt you've probably missed.
Agreed but it should be an option not mandatory and not penalized.

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#20 Finbarr Saunders

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 05:01 PM

 Bushwood Country Club, on 08 October 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

 OldTomMorris, on 08 October 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

http://www.telegraph...tour-card-have/

Credit to him for being so rational and honourable about this situation. I guess when you've battled cancer you have perspective.

I personally like the stringent rules of our game as I believe its directly contributed to the high levels of integrity, if there were more rules that were open to interpretation then I think things could be different.

Of course the rules aren't perfect and can continually be improved.
and then, there is this from the 2010 Masters....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bc2HC3Q-GQ


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#21 Finbarr Saunders

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 05:26 PM

Lee Westwood should be the 2010 Masters winner

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#22 slimeone

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 05:41 PM

In that video it looks like Phil begins the stroke after the bird has dropped the twig.

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#23 buckeyefl

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 05:44 PM

 BlackDiamondPar5, on 08 October 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

 Mr. Herbert, on 08 October 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

 Scotty1140, on 08 October 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

 PGArox, on 08 October 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I would think a touring pro would spend at least some of his idle time examining the rules.
This might be one of the stupidest 'rules' in golf. No wonder golf struggles to attract new people tithe game with rules like this.

Exactly how many people do you think have decided not to take up the game because of this rule or rules like it?

(I'll give you a hint, the answer is zero)
Agreed its probably zero. But it's one of the reasons many opt not to play tournament golf.
That number would also be close to zero.

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#24 md1m

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 10:01 PM

 golfgirlrobin, on 08 October 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

It seems like a strange rule to me.  I know the rules pretty well but I would have assumed that something like a leaf was just rub of the green.  

Not sure why anyone would want to get rid of the rule, though.  It gives you a second chance at a putt you've probably missed.

I'm with you. I think I know the rules pretty well and I probably would have missed this one also. Speaking of the rules, there's the rules, and then there's how to apply "modified pace of play rules" that my league uses. If you really want to have your head spinning, try knowing exactly how the modified rules are applied to an already complex set of rules.
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#25 SurfDuffer

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 06:31 AM

I don't see an infraction.  His ball was moved by the same gust of wind that blew the leaf.  Someone please tell me where he should have marked and played from?

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#26 Vindog

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 06:52 AM

 Scotty1140, on 08 October 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

 PGArox, on 08 October 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I would think a touring pro would spend at least some of his idle time examining the rules.
This might be one of the stupidest 'rules' in golf. No wonder golf struggles to attract new people tithe game with rules like this.

First, I love the Zepp avatar, sir but have to disagree  They were the same rules when the "golf boom" happened.  Most casual players out there or ones picking up the game don't even play by the rules anyways, so I respectfully don't buy this.

Edited by Vindog, 09 October 2017 - 06:55 AM.

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#27 Vindog

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 06:58 AM

 SurfDuffer, on 09 October 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

I don't see an infraction.  His ball was moved by the same gust of wind that blew the leaf.  Someone please tell me where he should have marked and played from?


This is one of the problems with that rule, imo.  The shot is cancelled and must be replayed  but the player has picked up his mark. The spot must be estimated like everything else, but if the RBs are looking to simplify things going forward, maybe they should just add this the the "rub of the green" list.

Edited by Vindog, 09 October 2017 - 06:59 AM.

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#28 bladehunter

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 07:08 AM

 Vindog, on 09 October 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

 SurfDuffer, on 09 October 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

I don't see an infraction.  His ball was moved by the same gust of wind that blew the leaf.  Someone please tell me where he should have marked and played from?


This is one of the problems with that rule, imo.  The shot is cancelled and must be replayed  but the player has picked up his mark. The spot must be estimated like everything else, but if the RBs are looking to simplify things going forward, maybe they should just add this the the "rub of the green" list.



very good point vin..  i agree...   making this a choice instead of a must or making it simply rub of the green makes much more sense than replaying it and estimating the spot etc... lot more variables and questions with replaying it vs not
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#29 youraway2

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 08:39 AM

 manku, on 08 October 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

 snizzle, on 08 October 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

Most of these guys get caught because they are in one of the final groups that gets all the tv coverage.  I would think this stuff happens all the time in every tournament but since the camera wasn't there it didn't happen.  Should have a rules official on every hole and the PGA pro should be charged a nominal fee each tournament to cover the cost.  The official can easily answer questions on each hole and keep the play moving along.  Maybe that's what is supposed to happen but I don't see it on my screen.

Actually, this being the PGA tour, they can probably get people to "volunteer" for that position...why pay for something when it's free!

I wasn't aware that the USGA rules officials are all volunteers...while working the Amateur/Walker this summer, I spoke to a number of them (those walking with the groups).  Not only do they not get paid, but they actually are 100% out of pocket for travel (one from Texas, another from Virginia). And to think I felt like a bit of a heel dropping $75 to volunteer!
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#30 youraway2

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 08:40 AM

The article I read wasn't debating the Decision, it was about the integrity of a fine young player.  Fantastic!


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