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US Mid Am


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#61 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:25 AM

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

Seems like there is some class elitism behind it historically anyways.

This.

We need to end amateurism. As a concept it is fundamentally about perpetuating class stratification.


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#62 Matt J

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:27 AM

View PostLlortamaisey, on 12 October 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

Good thing the USGA doesnít take away amateur status for gambling. The Mid-Am winner might not be able to break 80.

Ray Floyd's book he admits he played for a lot of money while an amateur.  Bigger winnings than 90% of tournament purses I'm sure.

Funny, a good friend won a putting contest at our club back when he was 14.  They gave him 2500 bucks.  Don't know how the USGA caught wind but he had to reinstate to play high school golf.  Now they give the prize in cash.

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#63 Drudersh

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:45 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

Seems like there is some class elitism behind it historically anyways.

This.

We need to end amateurism. As a concept it is fundamentally about perpetuating class stratification.

And replace it with..............?
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#64 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:49 AM

View PostDrudersh, on 12 October 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

And replace it with..............?

Open events. What other sport still maintain this class distinction?

Go the way of tennis, and have age-based national championships with no prize money. It's not like Roger Federer shows up to play in the USTA Men's 35+ Grass Court Championship.

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#65 Drudersh

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:53 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

View PostDrudersh, on 12 October 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

And replace it with..............?

Open events. What other sport still maintain this class distinction?

Go the way of tennis, and have age-based national championships with no prize money. It's not like Roger Federer shows up to play in the USTA Men's 35+ Grass Court Championship.

I'm confused. Are you talking about hosting open age based national championships like an Amateur, Mid-Amateur, Senior Amateur and allowing professionals to play?

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#66 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:57 AM

View PostDrudersh, on 12 October 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

I'm confused. Are you talking about hosting open age based national championships like an Amateur, Mid-Amateur, Senior Amateur and allowing professionals to play?

Basically. The USTA has something like 60 National Championship events (different age brackets, formats, and surfaces). No reason golf couldn't do the same. Everybody is welcome to enter, regardless of how they choose to earn their living. I'm sure it's happened, but it's exceptionally rare for a touring pro to play in any of these (except the US Open) - there's no prize money and the "prestige" of winning is relatively low (I mean, there are 60+ of them every year).

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#67 Drudersh

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:11 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 09:57 AM, said:

View PostDrudersh, on 12 October 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

I'm confused. Are you talking about hosting open age based national championships like an Amateur, Mid-Amateur, Senior Amateur and allowing professionals to play?

Basically. The USTA has something like 60 National Championship events (different age brackets, formats, and surfaces). No reason golf couldn't do the same. Everybody is welcome to enter, regardless of how they choose to earn their living. I'm sure it's happened, but it's exceptionally rare for a touring pro to play in any of these (except the US Open) - there's no prize money and the "prestige" of winning is relatively low (I mean, there are 60+ of them every year).

So you want the USGA to take over what city and state golf associations are currently doing, open them to everybody, including club professionals, and that's a win?
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#68 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:14 AM

View PostDrudersh, on 12 October 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

So you want the USGA to take over what city and state golf associations are currently doing, open them to everybody, including club professionals, and that's a win?

I wasn't aware that state golf associations were running national championship events.

I don't care who runs the events. But I think the bifurcation of competitors by how they make money is an arbitrary distinction.

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#69 Sean2

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:35 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

Seems like there is some class elitism behind it historically anyways.

This.

We need to end amateurism. As a concept it is fundamentally about perpetuating class stratification.

I don't know about that. One of those still playing is from a very blue collar town and is a fireman. I believe he won his quarter final match today.
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#70 bladehunter

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:12 PM

I see no benefit to anyone to do so . There would always be some dude who was pro and would show up to win mid-am style events just to beat his own chest.   The line now is fine .  Only tweak maybe shorter reinstatement times for anyone not winning on a national tour.

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#71 golfandfishing

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:39 PM

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

View PostLlortamaisey, on 12 October 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

Good thing the USGA doesnít take away amateur status for gambling. The Mid-Am winner might not be able to break 80.

Ray Floyd's book he admits he played for a lot of money while an amateur.  Bigger winnings than 90% of tournament purses I'm sure.

Funny, a good friend won a putting contest at our club back when he was 14.  They gave him 2500 bucks.  Don't know how the USGA caught wind but he had to reinstate to play high school golf.  Now they give the prize in cash.

This is prize money, not gambling.

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#72 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:15 PM

View PostSean2, on 12 October 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

Seems like there is some class elitism behind it historically anyways.

This.

We need to end amateurism. As a concept it is fundamentally about perpetuating class stratification.

I don't know about that. One of those still playing is from a very blue collar town and is a fireman. I believe he won his quarter final match today.

Great example. Matt tried to make a living at it. Wasnít good enough. Itís pretty clear that if he *could* make it on the Tour, he would. But he canít, so he plays as an am.

The concept of amateurism is a throwback to an era when professional athletes were degenerates.

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#73 Sean2

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:19 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 12 October 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

View PostMatt J, on 12 October 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

Seems like there is some class elitism behind it historically anyways.

This.

We need to end amateurism. As a concept it is fundamentally about perpetuating class stratification.

I don't know about that. One of those still playing is from a very blue collar town and is a fireman. I believe he won his quarter final match today.

Great example. Matt tried to make a living at it. Wasn't good enough. It's pretty clear that if he *could* make it on the Tour, he would. But he can't, so he plays as an am.

The concept of amateurism is a throwback to an era when professional athletes were degenerates.

And a very good one too, especially when you consider he has a family and is working a full time job.
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#74 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:00 PM

View PostSean2, on 12 October 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

And a very good one too, especially when you consider he has a family and is working a full time job.

Iím not being critical, but I donít think he has either a family or a full time job. Firemen have a crazy, hectic schedule...but from a time perspective, not particularly onerous.

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#75 Cicero

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:26 PM

Is the mid-am being aired at all?


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#76 Drudersh

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:27 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

View PostDrudersh, on 12 October 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

So you want the USGA to take over what city and state golf associations are currently doing, open them to everybody, including club professionals, and that's a win?

I wasn't aware that state golf associations were running national championship events.

I don't care who runs the events. But I think the bifurcation of competitors by how they make money is an arbitrary distinction.

State and local golf associations are running events for juniors, seniors, women, team events, handicap events etc. I was drawing a comparison to your USTA example. Are you saying you want the USGA to start running more national events like men's/women's age 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 50+ championships and handicap/different format events, and allow professionals to play in those?

I'm still not understanding the benefit of allowing professionals to participate in amateur events. The "bifurcation of competitors based on how they make their money" is actually the opposite of an arbitrary distinction, it is about as concrete as it gets. And as someone who has actually played in USGA amateur events I would prefer that current professionals NOT have the ability to participate. Amateurism in it's current form exists to protect the amateur. To argue that it "perpetuates class stratification" falls somewhere between a massive stretch and a total disconnect from reality. Do you honestly think in 2017 that a single player on the PGA Tour feels in any way shape or form denigrated by their status as a professional? Unless your answer to that question is "yes" the argument holds no water whatsoever. And if your answer to that question is in fact "yes" I would ask for any shred of evidence to be provided in support.

Edited by Drudersh, 12 October 2017 - 02:30 PM.

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#77 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:01 PM

View PostDrudersh, on 12 October 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

State and local golf associations are running events for juniors, seniors, women, team events, handicap events etc. I was drawing a comparison to your USTA example. Are you saying you want the USGA to start running more national events like men's/women's age 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 50+ championships and handicap/different format events, and allow professionals to play in those?

I'm still not understanding the benefit of allowing professionals to participate in amateur events. The "bifurcation of competitors based on how they make their money" is actually the opposite of an arbitrary distinction, it is about as concrete as it gets. And as someone who has actually played in USGA amateur events I would prefer that current professionals NOT have the ability to participate. Amateurism in it's current form exists to protect the amateur. To argue that it "perpetuates class stratification" falls somewhere between a massive stretch and a total disconnect from reality. Do you honestly think in 2017 that a single player on the PGA Tour feels in any way shape or form denigrated by their status as a professional? Unless your answer to that question is "yes" the argument holds no water whatsoever. And if your answer to that question is in fact "yes" I would ask for any shred of evidence to be provided in support.

What is it about ďprofessionalsĒ that youíre so afraid of that you donít want to play in the same events as they do?

I donít understand the rationale behind having an entirely separate slate of events just to exclude a bunch of guys who teach the occasional lesson.

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#78 Drudersh

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:51 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

View PostDrudersh, on 12 October 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

State and local golf associations are running events for juniors, seniors, women, team events, handicap events etc. I was drawing a comparison to your USTA example. Are you saying you want the USGA to start running more national events like men's/women's age 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 50+ championships and handicap/different format events, and allow professionals to play in those?

I'm still not understanding the benefit of allowing professionals to participate in amateur events. The "bifurcation of competitors based on how they make their money" is actually the opposite of an arbitrary distinction, it is about as concrete as it gets. And as someone who has actually played in USGA amateur events I would prefer that current professionals NOT have the ability to participate. Amateurism in it's current form exists to protect the amateur. To argue that it "perpetuates class stratification" falls somewhere between a massive stretch and a total disconnect from reality. Do you honestly think in 2017 that a single player on the PGA Tour feels in any way shape or form denigrated by their status as a professional? Unless your answer to that question is "yes" the argument holds no water whatsoever. And if your answer to that question is in fact "yes" I would ask for any shred of evidence to be provided in support.

What is it about "professionals" that you're so afraid of that you don't want to play in the same events as they do?

I don't understand the rationale behind having an entirely separate slate of events just to exclude a bunch of guys who teach the occasional lesson.

Are you moving the goal posts and insinuating you were only talking about club professionals and not touring professionals this entire time?
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#79 raynorfan1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 04:01 PM

View PostDrudersh, on 12 October 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

View PostDrudersh, on 12 October 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

State and local golf associations are running events for juniors, seniors, women, team events, handicap events etc. I was drawing a comparison to your USTA example. Are you saying you want the USGA to start running more national events like men's/women's age 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 50+ championships and handicap/different format events, and allow professionals to play in those?

I'm still not understanding the benefit of allowing professionals to participate in amateur events. The "bifurcation of competitors based on how they make their money" is actually the opposite of an arbitrary distinction, it is about as concrete as it gets. And as someone who has actually played in USGA amateur events I would prefer that current professionals NOT have the ability to participate. Amateurism in it's current form exists to protect the amateur. To argue that it "perpetuates class stratification" falls somewhere between a massive stretch and a total disconnect from reality. Do you honestly think in 2017 that a single player on the PGA Tour feels in any way shape or form denigrated by their status as a professional? Unless your answer to that question is "yes" the argument holds no water whatsoever. And if your answer to that question is in fact "yes" I would ask for any shred of evidence to be provided in support.

What is it about "professionals" that you're so afraid of that you don't want to play in the same events as they do?

I don't understand the rationale behind having an entirely separate slate of events just to exclude a bunch of guys who teach the occasional lesson.

Are you moving the goal posts and insinuating you were only talking about club professionals and not touring professionals this entire time?

Nope. Iím including touring professionals.

What are you afraid of? What is it a championship of if it excludes the best players?

That said, in tennis, you rarely (if ever) see touring pros playing in these championships.

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#80 gators78

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 04:28 PM

It's tough because you don't want to discourage participation in the sport, but I stand on the side of if you go pro as a Touring pro you should not be allowed to get your amateur status back. I think that 1) makes turning pro a much more serious decision and may thin the herd a bit, I don't hear many people arguing we need more Tour pros and mini Tours and 2) would open up Am events to a broader audience. There are a number of examples but you have guys earning hundreds of thousands on Tour then playing in Am events, that's not right to me.

Maybe you could do an adjusted calc on career earnings, or time on Tours, or maybe just membership on the PGA Tour, but there should be some consideration beyond a waiting period.

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#81 bladehunter

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:17 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

View PostDrudersh, on 12 October 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

State and local golf associations are running events for juniors, seniors, women, team events, handicap events etc. I was drawing a comparison to your USTA example. Are you saying you want the USGA to start running more national events like men's/women's age 20-30, 31-40, 41-50, 50+ championships and handicap/different format events, and allow professionals to play in those?

I'm still not understanding the benefit of allowing professionals to participate in amateur events. The "bifurcation of competitors based on how they make their money" is actually the opposite of an arbitrary distinction, it is about as concrete as it gets. And as someone who has actually played in USGA amateur events I would prefer that current professionals NOT have the ability to participate. Amateurism in it's current form exists to protect the amateur. To argue that it "perpetuates class stratification" falls somewhere between a massive stretch and a total disconnect from reality. Do you honestly think in 2017 that a single player on the PGA Tour feels in any way shape or form denigrated by their status as a professional? Unless your answer to that question is "yes" the argument holds no water whatsoever. And if your answer to that question is in fact "yes" I would ask for any shred of evidence to be provided in support.

What is it about ďprofessionalsĒ that youíre so afraid of that you donít want to play in the same events as they do?

I donít understand the rationale behind having an entirely separate slate of events just to exclude a bunch of guys who teach the occasional lesson.


So do you allow ams into the sectional PGA events and can we collect $ ?   I'm betting the actual competitive teaching pro doesn't want ams in his events anymore than we want pros in ours.
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#82 Sean2

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:37 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 12 October 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 12 October 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

And a very good one too, especially when you consider he has a family and is working a full time job.

I'm not being critical, but I don't think he has either a family or a full time job. Firemen have a crazy, hectic schedule...but from a time perspective, not particularly onerous.

Well, he lives a couple of towns over from me, but I will take your word for it.
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#83 bladestriker

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:54 PM

View PostCicero, on 12 October 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Is the mid-am being aired at all?
This
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#84 Sean2

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:54 PM

View Postbladestriker, on 12 October 2017 - 07:54 PM, said:

View PostCicero, on 12 October 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Is the mid-am being aired at all?
This

I wish it were. Match play is fun to watch, be it professionals or accomplished amateurs.
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#85 Shilgy

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:34 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 12 October 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:


So do you allow ams into the sectional PGA events and can we collect $ ?   I'm betting the actual competitive teaching pro doesn't want ams in his events anymore than we want pros in ours.
Geez Blade, that's a great idea. And a wonderful publicity for the PGA section. Let the D1 kids into those events and whatever money they would have earned goes to charity rather than the next pro. Awesome idea. :)

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#86 Darth Putter

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 02:34 PM

Final results as Matt Parziale wins the 36 hole final 8&6

https://www.golfdige...d-amateur-final

A 30 year old reinstated amateur with a 3.8 handicap that is a fireman.

He earns a trip to The Masters and the US Open next year.
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#87 jonsnow

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 03:37 PM

View PostDarth Putter, on 13 October 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

Final results as Matt Parziale wins the 36 hole final 8&6

https://www.golfdige...d-amateur-final

A 30 year old reinstated amateur with a 3.8 handicap that is a fireman.

He earns a trip to The Masters and the US Open next year.

I think you meant +3.8, according to the article. I did a double take before I clicked on the link... :golfer:
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#88 BottleCap

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:10 PM

I understand why the Mid-Am Champion get a spot in the US Open since their both run by the USGA, but what is the reasoning in a spot for the Masters? It's seems like a stain on a prestigious event field, that would look better going to the three NCAA champions.
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#89 raynorfan1

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:26 PM

View PostBottleCap, on 13 October 2017 - 07:10 PM, said:

I understand why the Mid-Am Champion get a spot in the US Open since their both run by the USGA, but what is the reasoning in a spot for the Masters? It's seems like a stain on a prestigious event field, that would look better going to the three NCAA champions.

I mean, the Masters was founded by the greatest amateur golfer of all time...it should come as no surprise that they show a fair amount of courtesy to USGA Amateur champions in their invitations.

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#90 Sean2

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:20 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 13 October 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

View PostBottleCap, on 13 October 2017 - 07:10 PM, said:

I understand why the Mid-Am Champion get a spot in the US Open since their both run by the USGA, but what is the reasoning in a spot for the Masters? It's seems like a stain on a prestigious event field, that would look better going to the three NCAA champions.

I mean, the Masters was founded by the greatest amateur golfer of all time...it should come as no surprise that they show a fair amount of courtesy to USGA Amateur champions in their invitations.

Yes, the Masters pride themselves on the amateurs they have in the field.

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