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So lets talk inside takeaway....where do I start?


200 replies to this topic

#61 GeoffDickson

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 06:03 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

More vertical wrist set Geoff.

Its the how part that is killing me :)


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#62 GeoffDickson

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 06:05 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

IMO hands are too active early should be quieter the first few feet of the take away.

Address the ball and when you take it away just hold on to the club use your pivot to take it away quiet hands and arms especially the first few feet.

What really helps me with the takeaway is left arm , hands clubhead and left shoulder should all be moving the same rpm at the first few feet ...



I like the 'same rpm' argument.

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#63 GeoffDickson

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 06:08 PM

View PostGrayback1973, on 07 October 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

Geoff,do you tend to get out on your toes and feel the weight moving toward the target line?

Yes.

I think it probably helps me stay balanced given where the club goes on the backswing.

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#64 David C

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 07:22 PM

Your stance is skew-wiff Geoff. Look at the first still someone posted of your takeaway. It follows your foot line. It's almost perfect in that respect but your feet point way right of target. Yet go back to the still of your address - at the same time your feet point right your shoulders are pointing open, club points left. Your eye-line has to be skewed to present that set up to you as square - assuming you are trying to set up square. Lie angles look out.

Is any fix that gets you on plane in relation to the camera going to work with that setup?

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#65 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 07:39 PM

View PostGeoffDickson, on 07 October 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

More vertical wrist set Geoff.

Its the how part that is killing me :)

Getting closer will help.  The no turn cast drill has a segment where I talk about initial set forces pivot to react.  The danger of vertical set is usually just avoiding hand path working out or getting narrow by folding right elbow too soon.


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#66 robbohank

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 08:17 PM

View PostHitEmTrue, on 07 October 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

I've got a friend who has been working on this advice of verticle wrist set.  He used to make a pretty good turn and could hit it probably 290-300 yards swingspeed of 110,

Why did he stop making a good turn?

Based on that pic I’d ask why did he stop making ANY turn?

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#67 GeoffDickson

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 08:31 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

"Definitely won't work."  Statements of absolutes are the mark of someone who doesn't understand.

Dozens of lesson of people just this year with exactly this issue, and the results, say different.

But you're making it sound like vertically hinging his wrists will solve his issues. But he's worked with you in the past extensively and has followed you for years, so why isn't he doing it? Couldn't it be that he's not processing the learning portion of it properly?


Yes, I have had a few hours of lessons with Monte. But I don't think that counts as 'extensive".

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#68 GeoffDickson

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 08:34 PM

View Postfjk, on 07 October 2017 - 04:28 PM, said:

I have had this problem.

Geoff, I think you should reflect on what you think (consciously or actively or not) powers the swing. That's why "corrections" for me felt so weird.

If I made a proper back swing I would get to a position I didn't feel like could power the swing effectively.

I don't think you can just fix one part. I think You do your back swing the way you do because it gets you where you think you need to be, loads what you feel needs to be loaded, etc.

There is something in this...because when I artificially c0ck the wrists, it feels weak.

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#69 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 08:43 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

"Definitely won't work."  Statements of absolutes are the mark of someone who doesn't understand.

Dozens of lesson of people just this year with exactly this issue, and the results, say different.

I'm sorry I shouldn't use absolutes. I don't like it when people do that.

But you're making it sound like vertically hinging his wrists will solve his issues. But he's worked with you in the past extensively and has followed you for years, so why isn't he doing it? Couldn't it be that he's not processing the learning portion of it properly?

I'm not trying to dig at you but your posts lately have just been one or two sentence blips we never get into any depth let's get into it the form has been boring lately.

What’s your definition of extensive?

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#70 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 08:55 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

"Definitely won't work."  Statements of absolutes are the mark of someone who doesn't understand.

Dozens of lesson of people just this year with exactly this issue, and the results, say different.

I'm sorry I shouldn't use absolutes. I don't like it when people do that.

But you're making it sound like vertically hinging his wrists will solve his issues. But he's worked with you in the past extensively and has followed you for years, so why isn't he doing it? Couldn't it be that he's not processing the learning portion of it properly?

I'm not trying to dig at you but your posts lately have just been one or two sentence blips we never get into any depth let's get into it the form has been boring lately.

Whatís your definition of extensive?

I thought he came out and spent a few days with you and took extensive notes and started a thread about It? If I'm wrong I apologize. Also a few hours is a lot with a pro level instructor, the takeaway should have been addressed before anything else. I also didn't mean to ruffle feathers, but I'm just as frustrated as Geoff that he doesn't understand the take away. I've been there and if a guy like Geoff who works his tail off on his swing as much as anybody and still doesn't get it, then I think he may need to be more creative in the learning process.


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#71 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:01 PM

You have it right, but he didn’t have this setup or takeaway issue when he was here.  Either before or after.

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#72 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:09 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

You have it right, but he didnít have this setup or takeaway issue when he was here.  Either before or after.

Well I don't doubt that.  Geoff what the heck have you been working on over the last year?

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#73 games

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:16 PM

Part of the problem is when students (like me) of instructors (like Monte) basically just abdicate all responsibility for learning.

That is why, this year, for the first time in three years Monte has done clinics, I made a conscious decision to NOT attend a Monte clinic.

Monte is a damn good instructor.  But, I needed to take responsibility for my own learning and discovery.  And, I've made headway this year, with more practice, and use of a couple of training aids that I selected to help my game.  This year, for the first time, I started drawing the ball which I could never do before.

Sometimes, we students need to take responsibility to dig stuff out of the dirt, and not rely solely on instructors to do it for us.
They who are enamoured of practice
without knowledge are like the mariner
going to sea without a rudder or compass
and who navigates without a course.

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#74 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:17 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:09 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

You have it right, but he didn’t have this setup or takeaway issue when he was here.  Either before or after.

Well I don't doubt that.  Geoff what the heck have you been working on over the last year?

Good players who the tinker get themselves jacked up all the time for no good reason.  Nature of the beast.  I’ve done it, Tiger’s done it, I had a guy come last week for his first lesson who was a scratch 6 months ago and experimented with a one plane swing, got the shanks and was ready to quit.

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#75 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:20 PM

View Postgames, on 07 October 2017 - 09:16 PM, said:

Part of the problem is when students (like me) of instructors (like Monte) basically just abdicate all responsibility for learning.

That is why, this year, for the first time in three years Monte has done clinics, I made a conscious decision to NOT attend a Monte clinic.

Monte is a damn good instructor.  But, I needed to take responsibility for my own learning and discovery.  And, I've made headway this year, with more practice, and use of a couple of training aids that I selected to help my game.  This year, for the first time, I started drawing the ball which I could never do before.

Sometimes, we students need to take responsibility to dig stuff out of the dirt, and not rely solely on instructors to do it for us.

Well said ... students need to stick to the plan and stop trolling the internet/forums for random tips that may disrupt the plan. Why pay for instruction if you're not going to stick to the recommendations.


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#76 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:31 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:09 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

You have it right, but he didnít have this setup or takeaway issue when he was here.  Either before or after.

Well I don't doubt that.  Geoff what the heck have you been working on over the last year?

Good players who the tinker get themselves jacked up all the time for no good reason.  Nature of the beast.  Iíve done it, Tigerís done it, I had a guy come last week for his first lesson who was a scratch 6 months ago and experimented with a one plane swing, got the shanks and was ready to quit.

But what about the learning process itself? How often are students leaving their sessions with you with a firm understanding that after the lesson plan is over whether it's months or years that they will eventually be using zero swing thoughts and swinging with their subconscious?
The gripe I have here is some instructors here don't seem to have that as their end game or at least don't talk about it.

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#77 games

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:32 PM

View PostGhost of Snead, on 07 October 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

Well said ... students need to stick to the plan and stop trolling the internet/forums for random tips that may disrupt the plan. Why pay for instruction if you're not going to stick to the recommendations.

Thanks! Monte is really gracious with his time here in responding to people who aren't his students.

I don't quite get the criticism he gets for the brevity of his comments.  Chances are that if he gives direction, he probably has cut a public video that addresses it in more detail. I KNOW Monte's cut a video that addresses the takeaway as three separate pieces (wrist c0ck, wrist bend + forearm roll, rotate to top).
They who are enamoured of practice
without knowledge are like the mariner
going to sea without a rudder or compass
and who navigates without a course.

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#78 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:39 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:09 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

You have it right, but he didn’t have this setup or takeaway issue when he was here.  Either before or after.

Well I don't doubt that.  Geoff what the heck have you been working on over the last year?

Good players who the tinker get themselves jacked up all the time for no good reason.  Nature of the beast.  I’ve done it, Tiger’s done it, I had a guy come last week for his first lesson who was a scratch 6 months ago and experimented with a one plane swing, got the shanks and was ready to quit.

But what about the learning process itself? How often are students leaving their sessions with you with a firm understanding that after the lesson plan is over whether it's months or years that they will eventually be using zero swing thoughts and swinging with their subconscious?
The gripe I have here is some instructors here don't seem to have that as their end game or at least don't talk about it.

End game....no more range lessons working on swing.  On course lessons learning how to play better, monitoring setup and monitoring old habits not coming back.

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#79 GeoffDickson

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:47 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:09 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

You have it right, but he didn't have this setup or takeaway issue when he was here.  Either before or after.

Well I don't doubt that.  Geoff what the heck have you been working on over the last year?

You sort of both have it wrong....I also spent a few days with Iteach, and that is when I shared my notes on with the GolfEWRX community.  And I did have a setup issue when i arrived for my lessons with Monte...I didn't when I left...but I think we all know how easy it is to regress (after 20 months) :)

So what have I been working on?  Getting my handicap down from 6 to 2...keeping it to less than two 3-putts per round, and getting the right shoulder down to the ball.

If you think my inside takeaway is bad, wait until you see me putt.

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#80 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:48 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:09 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

You have it right, but he didn't have this setup or takeaway issue when he was here.  Either before or after.

Well I don't doubt that.  Geoff what the heck have you been working on over the last year?

Good players who the tinker get themselves jacked up all the time for no good reason.  Nature of the beast.  I've done it, Tiger's done it, I had a guy come last week for his first lesson who was a scratch 6 months ago and experimented with a one plane swing, got the shanks and was ready to quit.

But what about the learning process itself? How often are students leaving their sessions with you with a firm understanding that after the lesson plan is over whether it's months or years that they will eventually be using zero swing thoughts and swinging with their subconscious?
The gripe I have here is some instructors here don't seem to have that as their end game or at least don't talk about it.

Having zero swing thoughts should be natural if your swing is mechanically sound and the results are optimal. Why do you need an instructor to discuss that with you ? And how do you think tour pros got to the point of having zero swing thoughts ? Years and years of practice with tour quality swings.

Edited by Ghost of Snead, 07 October 2017 - 09:48 PM.


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#81 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:49 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:09 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

You have it right, but he didnít have this setup or takeaway issue when he was here.  Either before or after.

Well I don't doubt that.  Geoff what the heck have you been working on over the last year?

Good players who the tinker get themselves jacked up all the time for no good reason.  Nature of the beast.  Iíve done it, Tigerís done it, I had a guy come last week for his first lesson who was a scratch 6 months ago and experimented with a one plane swing, got the shanks and was ready to quit.

But what about the learning process itself? How often are students leaving their sessions with you with a firm understanding that after the lesson plan is over whether it's months or years that they will eventually be using zero swing thoughts and swinging with their subconscious?
The gripe I have here is some instructors here don't seem to have that as their end game or at least don't talk about it.

End game....no more range lessons working on swing.  On course lessons learning how to play better, monitoring setup and monitoring old habits not coming back.

But that end game never ends. How about getting rid of the old habits so the new habits are deeply ingrained into the SC so they don't need monitoring?  How about an end game of a playing lesson with no monitoring?

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#82 GeoffDickson

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:49 PM

View PostDavid C, on 07 October 2017 - 07:22 PM, said:

Your stance is skew-wiff Geoff. Look at the first still someone posted of your takeaway. It follows your foot line. It's almost perfect in that respect but your feet point way right of target. Yet go back to the still of your address - at the same time your feet point right your shoulders are pointing open, club points left. Your eye-line has to be skewed to present that set up to you as square - assuming you are trying to set up square. Lie angles look out.

Is any fix that gets you on plane in relation to the camera going to work with that setup?

You are 100% correct that I set up closed to the target...and it only gets worse out on the course!!

Even with that closed setup, I still think I suck it back way too quick.

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#83 GeoffDickson

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:54 PM

View PostJacob Mac, on 07 October 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

It is obvious to me from hundreds of yards away that you are ball bound.  Are you holding your breath on the back swing?

Or, another alternative approach, just diligently work on what you've paid thousands of dollars to learn from Dan and Monte.  You don't need more lessons, you need to implement the ones you've already paid for.


Yes , I hold my breathe on the backswing...you can hear me exhale on the follow through.

Yes, I am conscious of listening to too many people...but every now and then you get desperate.

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#84 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:59 PM

View PostGhost of Snead, on 07 October 2017 - 09:48 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:09 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

You have it right, but he didn't have this setup or takeaway issue when he was here.  Either before or after.

Well I don't doubt that.  Geoff what the heck have you been working on over the last year?

Good players who the tinker get themselves jacked up all the time for no good reason.  Nature of the beast.  I've done it, Tiger's done it, I had a guy come last week for his first lesson who was a scratch 6 months ago and experimented with a one plane swing, got the shanks and was ready to quit.

But what about the learning process itself? How often are students leaving their sessions with you with a firm understanding that after the lesson plan is over whether it's months or years that they will eventually be using zero swing thoughts and swinging with their subconscious?
The gripe I have here is some instructors here don't seem to have that as their end game or at least don't talk about it.

Having zero swing thoughts should be natural if your swing is mechanically sound and the results are optimal. Why do you need an instructor to discuss that with you ? And how do you think tour pros got to the point of having zero swing thoughts ? Years and years of practice with tour quality swings.

Snead, I read this 3 times I'm not getting what you mean?
Tour pros learned when they were kids when the brain was still developing. They don't know what they do even when they think they do.

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#85 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 10:05 PM

View PostGhost of Snead, on 07 October 2017 - 09:48 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:09 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

You have it right, but he didn't have this setup or takeaway issue when he was here.  Either before or after.

Well I don't doubt that.  Geoff what the heck have you been working on over the last year?

Good players who the tinker get themselves jacked up all the time for no good reason.  Nature of the beast.  I've done it, Tiger's done it, I had a guy come last week for his first lesson who was a scratch 6 months ago and experimented with a one plane swing, got the shanks and was ready to quit.

But what about the learning process itself? How often are students leaving their sessions with you with a firm understanding that after the lesson plan is over whether it's months or years that they will eventually be using zero swing thoughts and swinging with their subconscious?
The gripe I have here is some instructors here don't seem to have that as their end game or at least don't talk about it.

Having zero swing thoughts should be natural if your swing is mechanically sound and the results are optimal. Why do you need an instructor to discuss that with you ? And how do you think tour pros got to the point of having zero swing thoughts ? Years and years of practice with tour quality swings.

Are you saying you're supposed to think during a subconscious motion? I.e. a golf swing? Because you're not. That's one absolute.


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#86 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 10:06 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:59 PM, said:

Snead, I read this 3 times I'm not getting what you mean?
Tour pros learned when they were kids when the brain was still developing. They don't know what they do even when they think they do.

Swinging with zero swing thoughts should be a given if the student follows the instructor's plan and the student's swing becomes mechanically sound. The more the student practices correctly, the less swing thoughts they should have going forward.

Why does it need to be discussed at all ?

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#87 games

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 10:08 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

Are you saying you're supposed to think during a subconscious motion? I.e. a golf swing? Because you're not. That's one absolute.

How did you reach that conclusion from what Ghost stated?  This forum is getting more needlessly confrontational all the time...
They who are enamoured of practice
without knowledge are like the mariner
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and who navigates without a course.

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#88 FullOfBrushMan

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 10:15 PM

View PostGeoffDickson, on 07 October 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

More vertical wrist set Geoff.

Its the how part that is killing me :)
Monte is right you need more vertical wrists BUT you need to do extreme feelings when you practice it preferably in a mirror.  You realize you have a closed stance right?  Also do a face on video as that would show your real problem.

In order to get real help you would probably need to describe in crazy detail what you feel @ P1, P2, & P3.  More information the better.  But yeah post a FO.

Edited by FullOfBrushMan, 07 October 2017 - 10:19 PM.


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#89 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 10:16 PM

View PostGhost of Snead, on 07 October 2017 - 10:06 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 09:59 PM, said:

Snead, I read this 3 times I'm not getting what you mean?
Tour pros learned when they were kids when the brain was still developing. They don't know what they do even when they think they do.

Swinging with zero swing thoughts should be a given if the student follows the instructor's plan and the student's swing becomes mechanically sound. The more the student practices correctly, the less swing thoughts they should have going forward.

Why does it need to be discussed at all ?

Because basically no one talks about it? Direct me to the last thread that involved swinging without swing thoughts.

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#90 mulliganman30

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 10:18 PM

My question is why do you jbw seem to have an axe to grind with Monte?   In my opinion you've taken the thread in a direction that seems to be personally attacking him.


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