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So lets talk inside takeaway....where do I start?


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#31 Jim Waldron

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 02:51 PM

What I meant by understanding the "why" behind the takeaway flaw, also applies to other swing flaws. Golfers tend to repeat certain poor body motions because a. they have done thousands of reps that way and so have formed a dominant habit, but also b. they hold certain deeply held beliefs and "mental pictures" (mainly 2D illusion-based) that create the poor body motion.

When I work with a student, it is all about the student achieving their own self-discovery as the the "why" behind their flaw.

You can make the Big Circle or Vortex primarily through independent arm motion or you can make it through the Pivot. Achieving that level of insight is the whole essence of the golf skills learning Process.


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#32 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 03:13 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

Excess late arm lift the result of late wrist set.  Excess late arm lift will cause upper body movement toward target at the top.  Momentum of upper body movement toward target at the top creates motion toward target entire downswing.

Gotta fix first broken link.  Late vertical hinge is not the only issue, but how late it's happening is the first one.

So what's the plan?

Think about Vertically hinging more during the swing at full speed with a ball there and expecting results?

Or work on it it in slow motion for a few months with no ball?

#1 definitely won't work.

#2 definitely won't work unless he understands exactly how to move all the pieces and how they move in 3 dimensions and can blend it with the pivot. Otherwise he's practicing for nothing.



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#33 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 03:33 PM

"Definitely won't work."  Statements of absolutes are the mark of someone who doesn't understand.

Dozens of lesson of people just this year with exactly this issue, and the results, say different. Pivot often (nearly always) responds to earlier hinge.

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#34 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 03:42 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

"Definitely won't work."  Statements of absolutes are the mark of someone who doesn't understand.

Dozens of lesson of people just this year with exactly this issue, and the results, say different.

I'm sorry I shouldn't use absolutes. I don't like it when people do that.

But you're making it sound like vertically hinging his wrists will solve his issues. But he's worked with you in the past extensively and has followed you for years, so why isn't he doing it? Couldn't it be that he's not processing the learning portion of it properly?

I'm not trying to dig at you but your posts lately have just been one or two sentence blips we never get into any depth let's get into it the form has been boring lately.

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#35 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 03:45 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

"Definitely won't work."  Statements of absolutes are the mark of someone who doesn't understand.

Dozens of lesson of people just this year with exactly this issue, and the results, say different.

I'm sorry I shouldn't use absolutes. I don't like it when people do that.

But you're making it sound like vertically hinging his wrists will solve his issues. But he's worked with you in the past extensively and has followed you for years, so why isn't he doing it? Couldn't it be that he's not processing the learning portion of it properly?

I'm not trying to dig at you but your posts lately have just been one or two sentence blips we never get into any depth let's get into it the form has been boring lately.

Considering that it takes hundreds of reps to make a change, perhaps he's either not practicing what he was told or not practicing correctly. Wouldn't be the first time someone reverted to old patterns after a golf lesson.


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#36 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 03:50 PM

View PostGhost of Snead, on 07 October 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

"Definitely won't work."  Statements of absolutes are the mark of someone who doesn't understand.

Dozens of lesson of people just this year with exactly this issue, and the results, say different.

I'm sorry I shouldn't use absolutes. I don't like it when people do that.

But you're making it sound like vertically hinging his wrists will solve his issues. But he's worked with you in the past extensively and has followed you for years, so why isn't he doing it? Couldn't it be that he's not processing the learning portion of it properly?

I'm not trying to dig at you but your posts lately have just been one or two sentence blips we never get into any depth let's get into it the form has been boring lately.

Considering that it takes hundreds of reps to make a change, perhaps he's either not practicing what he was told or not practicing correctly. Wouldn't be the first time someone reverted to old patterns after a golf lesson.

We've all spent time practicing incorrectly for extended periods of time and because the practice was incorrect we revert back to our old habits that's the whole point.

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#37 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 03:52 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

"Definitely won't work."  Statements of absolutes are the mark of someone who doesn't understand.

Dozens of lesson of people just this year with exactly this issue, and the results, say different.

I'm sorry I shouldn't use absolutes. I don't like it when people do that.

But you're making it sound like vertically hinging his wrists will solve his issues. But he's worked with you in the past extensively and has followed you for years, so why isn't he doing it? Couldn't it be that he's not processing the learning portion of it properly?

I'm not trying to dig at you but your posts lately have just been one or two sentence blips we never get into any depth let's get into it the form has been boring lately.

One or two sentence blips is my style.  Especially online.  People know when they send me an email, the shorter the response they get the better.

Getting closer and hinging earlier isn't going to solve everything, but it's the first step at this point.  Throwing away all the candy and ice cream in my house didn't make me lose weight, but it was a damn good first step.

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#38 Hawkeye77

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:18 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

View PostGhost of Snead, on 07 October 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

"Definitely won't work."  Statements of absolutes are the mark of someone who doesn't understand.

Dozens of lesson of people just this year with exactly this issue, and the results, say different.

I'm sorry I shouldn't use absolutes. I don't like it when people do that.

But you're making it sound like vertically hinging his wrists will solve his issues. But he's worked with you in the past extensively and has followed you for years, so why isn't he doing it? Couldn't it be that he's not processing the learning portion of it properly?

I'm not trying to dig at you but your posts lately have just been one or two sentence blips we never get into any depth let's get into it the form has been boring lately.

Considering that it takes hundreds of reps to make a change, perhaps he's either not practicing what he was told or not practicing correctly. Wouldn't be the first time someone reverted to old patterns after a golf lesson.

We've all spent time practicing incorrectly for extended periods of time and because the practice was incorrect we revert back to our old habits that's the whole point.

And that means the fix is likely to be the same, so what is your point in regard to that?
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#39 HitEmTrue

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:18 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 03:13 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

Excess late arm lift the result of late wrist set.  Excess late arm lift will cause upper body movement toward target at the top.  Momentum of upper body movement toward target at the top creates motion toward target entire downswing.

Gotta fix first broken link.  Late vertical hinge is not the only issue, but how late it's happening is the first one.

So what's the plan?

Think about Vertically hinging more during the swing at full speed with a ball there and expecting results?

Or work on it it in slow motion for a few months with no ball?

#1 definitely won't work.

#2 definitely won't work unless he understands exactly how to move all the pieces and how they move in 3 dimensions and can blend it with the pivot. Otherwise he's practicing for nothing.

How about #3.   Slow motion backswings, and hit a ball.  That's how I work on it.



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#40 Macogardy

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:19 PM

Geoff sounds like your an accomplished golfer and know quite a bit about the swing.  I think jims advise is good and in agreement with my experiences.  I for years had an early wrist set Mac  ogrady taught swing.  It looked good but I personally didn't get any better as a ball striker until I learned the one piece takeaway all the greats have reccomended.  It makes the wrist c0ck a second nature response.  It sets up a nice turn and an onplane motion, it truly makes the swing simple.  

Your swing
Active arms and hands the upper torso , maybe s little hips powered by the legs.  should be doing all the takeaway the first few feet of the swing

Posted Image
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Edited by Macogardy, 07 October 2017 - 04:23 PM.


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#41 Hawkeye77

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:22 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

Geoff sounds like your an accomplished golfer and know quite a bit about the swing.  I think jims advise is good and in agreement with my experiences.  I for years had an early wrist set Mac  ogrady taught swing.  It looked good but I personally didn't get any better as a ball striker until I learned the one piece takeaway all the greats have reccomended.  It makes the wrist c0ck a second nature response.  It sets up a nice turn and an onplane motion, it truly makes the swing simple.  

Your swing
Active arms and hands the upper torso , maybe s little hips powered by the legs.  should be doing all the takeaway the first few feet of the swing

Or Geoff, ignore this terrible advice for you.

Mac you are totally out of your element.

Edited by Hawkeye77, 07 October 2017 - 04:23 PM.

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#42 Macogardy

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:25 PM

I am , you guys are regurgitating stuff that I've seen fail over the last 20 years over and over again

I am giving advice as is Jim about swinging the way reccomended by the greatest players in the game.

Edited by Macogardy, 07 October 2017 - 04:25 PM.


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#43 Hawkeye77

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:27 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

I am , you guys are regurgitating stuff that I've seen fail over the last 20 years over and over again

I am giving advice as is Jim about swinging the way reccomended by the greatest players in the game.

Jim has credibility and experience you don't get to piggyback off just by throwing his name in your post.
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#44 fjk

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:28 PM

I have had this problem.

Geoff, I think you should reflect on what you think (consciously or actively or not) powers the swing. That's why "corrections" for me felt so weird.

If I made a proper back swing I would get to a position I didn't feel like could power the swing effectively.

I don't think you can just fix one part. I think You do your back swing the way you do because it gets you where you think you need to be, loads what you feel needs to be loaded, etc.

Edited by fjk, 07 October 2017 - 04:29 PM.


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#45 Macogardy

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:33 PM

I've got a friend who has been working on this advice of verticle wrist set.  He used to make a pretty good turn and could hit it probably 290-300 yards swingspeed of 110,

Now he can't crack an egg and gets out driven by everyone in our foursome by 40 yards and has been paying for all our kids music lessons and Disneyland passes with his losses.  
Trust me stick with the classic advice .

Posted Image

Edited by Macogardy, 07 October 2017 - 04:36 PM.


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#46 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:35 PM

View PostHawkeye77, on 07 October 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

View PostGhost of Snead, on 07 October 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

"Definitely won't work."  Statements of absolutes are the mark of someone who doesn't understand.

Dozens of lesson of people just this year with exactly this issue, and the results, say different.

I'm sorry I shouldn't use absolutes. I don't like it when people do that.

But you're making it sound like vertically hinging his wrists will solve his issues. But he's worked with you in the past extensively and has followed you for years, so why isn't he doing it? Couldn't it be that he's not processing the learning portion of it properly?

I'm not trying to dig at you but your posts lately have just been one or two sentence blips we never get into any depth let's get into it the form has been boring lately.

Considering that it takes hundreds of reps to make a change, perhaps he's either not practicing what he was told or not practicing correctly. Wouldn't be the first time someone reverted to old patterns after a golf lesson.

We've all spent time practicing incorrectly for extended periods of time and because the practice was incorrect we revert back to our old habits that's the whole point.

And that means the fix is likely to be the same, so what is your point in regard to that?

My point is we might have the right idea on what change we want to make but are not being shown how to learn it properly. So slow motion practice thousands of times activating the wrong muscles at the wrong time would be a waste of time.

Setting your wrists early to 1st parallel with no left side Bend and not enough pivot would be a good example of practicing early wrist set the wrong way.

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#47 Jim Waldron

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:38 PM

Understanding the true 3D golf swing has everything to do with knowing which mechanical pieces of the golf swing puzzle cause primary body part and/or club motion in each of the three spatial dimensions: wrist c0ck is mainly vertical dimension, arm pushaway is mainly width dimension, right elbow folding is mainly vertical dimension, and Pivot is mainly the "around" or horizontal dimension, although the side tilts also create motion in the vertical dimension indirectly.

An on plane shaft motion and a human golfer's  body that is not getting in it's own way requires a swing motion that blends those four puzzle pieces together seamlessly, and in the right proportion.

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#48 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:44 PM

It's really easy to make a perfect backswing in slow motion in front of a mirror.
But the subconscious won't pick up on it and do it at full speed unless you're activating and pushing the muscles in the right directions when you're training them in slow motion.
So thousands of reps and mirror work may not be enough... thousands of reps mirror work with the correct intent would be better otherwise the subconscious will never buy into it.

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#49 HitEmTrue

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:45 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

I've got a friend who has been working on this advice of verticle wrist set.  He used to make a pretty good turn and could hit it probably 290-300 yards swingspeed of 110,

Why did he stop making a good turn?

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#50 Hawkeye77

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:49 PM

Geoff, I've watched your journey with interest over the years and though not as accomplished a ball striker struggle with some common issues and wrist set (like having any, lol) a constant struggle and one of the keys to stopping my upper body leading, early release. Other intents can come into play as you know. Seen first hand the differences in impact, etc. Low and slow, one piece takeaway type feels aren't recipes for everyone (Mac is full of it) and recipes for disaster for me, sounds like maybe for you but I'm not qualified to give you swing advice, just relating my experience.

Sadly this thread has the useless posting up of pictures of positions you should copy.

I wish you luck and you know some good coaches on here willing to help.

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#51 Jim Waldron

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:51 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

It's really easy to make a perfect backswing in slow motion in front of a mirror.
But the subconscious won't pick up on it and do it at full speed unless you're activating and pushing the muscles in the right directions when you're training them in slow motion.
So thousands of reps and mirror work may not be enough... thousands of reps mirror work with the correct intent would be better otherwise the subconscious will never buy into it.

And the subconscious mind also will not "buy into it" if the subconscious is holding on to mental pictures or beliefs that are incompatible with the new movement pattern you are trying to learn. It is why in my system it is imperative that the student achieve at least a moderate intensity "light bulb moment" of understanding "why" the new movement pattern is in fact correct. If 99% of your mind believes it to be true, but 1% has doubt about the credibility of that new move, that 1% will quickly baloon to 51% or more, and sabotage your training process.

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#52 Jacob Mac

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:53 PM

It is obvious to me from hundreds of yards away that you are ball bound.  Are you holding your breath on the back swing?

Or, another alternative approach, just diligently work on what you've paid thousands of dollars to learn from Dan and Monte.  You don't need more lessons, you need to implement the ones you've already paid for.

Don't fall for people shilling simple concepts in mysterious terms and "unlocking your unchanneled subconscious" garbage. Just do what Monte and Dan told you.

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#53 Macogardy

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:58 PM

View PostHitEmTrue, on 07 October 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

I've got a friend who has been working on this advice of verticle wrist set.  He used to make a pretty good turn and could hit it probably 290-300 yards swingspeed of 110,

Why did he stop making a good turn?

Because he got a lesson from a teacher to get more verticle set,  it messed him all up and he started using his hands and arms more and not getting the all important turn.  

I've seen it over and over.  Believe me I've seen many great kids ruined by early wrist c0ck.  It can be done Faldo had early wrist set but it takes a lot of practice .  The one piece takeaway I have shown evidence of advocated by the pics I presented is easier to learn and gives the best results.  And it's a very simple procedure.   You can learn it in one lesson it doesn't take tons of practice, who has time for that,  I'm an active player at a country club play 1-3 times a week but my only practice usually is 10-15 balls to warm up and get to the tee because I'm busy.  I think most people are similar

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#54 Hawkeye77

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 05:03 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 04:58 PM, said:

View PostHitEmTrue, on 07 October 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

I've got a friend who has been working on this advice of verticle wrist set.  He used to make a pretty good turn and could hit it probably 290-300 yards swingspeed of 110,

Why did he stop making a good turn?

Because he got a lesson from a teacher to get more verticle set,  it messed him all up and he started using his hands and arms more and not getting the all important turn.  

I've seen it over and over.  Believe me I've seen many great kids ruined by early wrist c0ck.  It can be done Faldo had early wrist set but it takes a lot of practice .  The one piece takeaway I have shown evidence of advocated by the pics I presented is easier to learn and gives the best results.  And it's a very simple procedure.   You can learn it in one lesson it doesn't take tons of practice, who has time for that,  I'm an active player at a country club play 1-3 times a week but my only practice usually is 10-15 balls to warm up and get to the tee because I'm busy.  I think most people are similar

No that lesson didn't mess him up, you are wrong, whole premise is wrong.

Edited by Hawkeye77, 07 October 2017 - 07:27 PM.

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#55 Macogardy

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 05:16 PM

How do you know that lesson didn't mess him up.

I play with him practically every week I know all his weaknesses I know what the teacher told him and why he went to him.  Why do you think he's messed up


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#56 HitEmTrue

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 05:16 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 04:58 PM, said:

Because he got a lesson from a teacher to get more verticle set,  it messed him all up and he started using his hands and arms more and not getting the all important turn.  

I've seen it over and over.  Believe me I've seen many great kids ruined by early wrist c0ck.  It can be done Faldo had early wrist set but it takes a lot of practice .  The one piece takeaway I have shown evidence of advocated by the pics I presented is easier to learn and gives the best results.  And it's a very simple procedure.   You can learn it in one lesson it doesn't take tons of practice, who has time for that,  I'm an active player at a country club play 1-3 times a week but my only practice usually is 10-15 balls to warm up and get to the tee because I'm busy.  I think most people are similar

Hinging properly (and even earlIER) is not synonymous with early.  


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#57 bph7

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 05:25 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 04:58 PM, said:

View PostHitEmTrue, on 07 October 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

I've got a friend who has been working on this advice of verticle wrist set.  He used to make a pretty good turn and could hit it probably 290-300 yards swingspeed of 110,

Why did he stop making a good turn?

Because he got a lesson from a teacher to get more verticle set,  it messed him all up and he started using his hands and arms more and not getting the all important turn.  

I've seen it over and over.  Believe me I've seen many great kids ruined by early wrist c0ck.  It can be done Faldo had early wrist set but it takes a lot of practice .  The one piece takeaway I have shown evidence of advocated by the pics I presented is easier to learn and gives the best results.  And it's a very simple procedure.   You can learn it in one lesson it doesn't take tons of practice, who has time for that,  I'm an active player at a country club play 1-3 times a week but my only practice usually is 10-15 balls to warm up and get to the tee because I'm busy.  I think most people are similar

The “one piece takeaway” (whatever that means) is the look a lot of people have when they feel like they are setting really early but have always actually been too late.

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#58 Macogardy

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 05:25 PM

That's a correct statement

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#59 Hawkeye77

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 05:26 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:

How do you know that lesson didn't mess him up.

I play with him practically every week I know all his weaknesses I know what the teacher told him and why he went to him.  Why do you think he's messed up

LOL, thought you were talking about Geoff.

One size doesn't fit all. One student's bad experience doesn't necessarily translate - maybe it was wrong for him, maybe he didn't implement it, maybe he went too far in implementing it, too many variables.

Edited by Hawkeye77, 07 October 2017 - 07:30 PM.

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#60 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 05:40 PM

View PostMacogardy, on 07 October 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

I've got a friend who has been working on this advice of verticle wrist set.  He used to make a pretty good turn and could hit it probably 290-300 yards swingspeed of 110,

Now he can't crack an egg and gets out driven by everyone in our foursome by 40 yards and has been paying for all our kids music lessons and Disneyland passes with his losses.  
Trust me stick with the classic advice .

Posted Image

Vertical wrist set and a proper turn are not mutually exclusive.

Thanks for the anecdote though.


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