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So lets talk inside takeaway....where do I start?


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#1 GeoffDickson

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 10:43 PM

See video below for the moving pictures.

My takeaway is massively low and to the inside.  I know that this creates implications at the top of the backing - a late arm lift which creates momentum in the wrong direction, making it more or less impossible to do anything but swing over the top and hit pulls.

So lets talk inside takeaway....where do I start?


https://youtu.be/e_OHTkmDh10

Edited by GeoffDickson, 06 October 2017 - 10:56 PM.


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#2 jslane57

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 10:56 PM

Personally, I do think the take away it is a little inside, but I don't think that is the cause of, or even the problem. I wish you showed a front on view. I'd suspect that from there we would see other more pressing things. Like leading with upper body from the top. Like leaning forward rather than keeping a secondary tilt. Making the backswing perfect will not cure these things, but getting these things on track will help the backswing.
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#3 Matt J

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 11:02 PM

I'd move closer to the ball and flex your knees less.  Bend from the hips and work your lead shoulder under your chin.

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#4 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 11:12 PM

Bobby Jones, Sam Snead, Julius Boros, Bruce Lietzsche (or, however tf you spell it), Ray Floyd, Craig Stadler, Craig Parry, Christy Kerr, etc., all had/have the same issue.

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#5 MPStrat

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 12:18 AM

You do have a little late arm lift, but I don't think your takeaway is a big problem. You are transitioning really early and really fast with the body which is causing your hand path to work out too much. From there you have the choice of coming over the top or shanking it.

I think this drill could help you:


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#6 MPStrat

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 12:21 AM

This is another good one



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#7 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 12:59 AM

View PostGeoffDickson, on 06 October 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

See video below for the moving pictures.

My takeaway is massively low and to the inside.  I know that this creates implications at the top of the backing - a late arm lift which creates momentum in the wrong direction, making it more or less impossible to do anything but swing over the top and hit pulls.

So lets talk inside takeaway....where do I start?


https://youtu.be/e_OHTkmDh10

Geoff,

I didn't watch your video. You've been posting on these forums since the moon landing. I remember you from manzellas forum. You've seen plenty of instructors, own a flight scope and still have trouble with the takeaway?

Have you seen Jim Waldron yet? He will fix your takeaway. He tells you exactly what to do, right down to which muscles to activate and which direction to apply pressure. Skype lessons work well with him.

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#8 GeoffDickson

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 01:27 AM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 12:59 AM, said:

View PostGeoffDickson, on 06 October 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

See video below for the moving pictures.

My takeaway is massively low and to the inside.  I know that this creates implications at the top of the backing - a late arm lift which creates momentum in the wrong direction, making it more or less impossible to do anything but swing over the top and hit pulls.

So lets talk inside takeaway....where do I start?


https://youtu.be/e_OHTkmDh10

Geoff,

I didn't watch your video. You've been posting on these forums since the moon landing. I remember you from manzellas forum. You've seen plenty of instructors, own a flight scope and still have trouble with the takeaway?

Have you seen Jim Waldron yet? He will fix your takeaway. He tells you exactly what to do, right down to which muscles to activate and which direction to apply pressure. Skype lessons work well with him.

Yes, I still have trouble with the takeaway...and no I have not had a lesson from Jim. Will look into it.

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#9 copperjeff

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 02:20 AM

Hi Geoff!

Your takeaway looks so inside because you don't have enough vertical wrist c0ck.  Two things I would say about that.  First, is that it looks like you are reaching for the ball a bit much.  At address with an iron, if you let go of the handle of the club, and let your arms hang naturally, that's where you want the grip to be.  That should help you a little bit on trying to get the a more vertical feel.  Additionally, if you feel like you point your thumbs toward the sky as you begin your takeaway, its going to help fix that inside look.

As others have said, that isn't the only thing to work on in your swing though.  I'd like to see a face on of your setup.  I'm thinking you could use a little bit of a hip shift towards the target in your setup, but need face on to confirm.

I agree with you, that fixing your backswing can make it easier on your downswing, but we need to get you a better transition/downswing thought.  It appears right now you are just yanking the handle down right towards the club.  I think its pretty obvious that your upper body is shifting towards the target on the downswing with that as well.

Thoughts I would suggest for the downswing: Monte's lead with the right elbow, or feel like you are throwing a frisbee down the target line from the top. There are some others that could work too, but a lot of people have had success with those feelings.
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#10 Macogardy

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 10:39 AM

IMO hands are too active early should be quieter the first few feet of the take away.

Address the ball and when you take it away just hold on to the club use your pivot to take it away quiet hands and arms especially the first few feet.

What really helps me with the takeaway is left arm , hands clubhead and left shoulder should all be moving the same rpm at the first few feet make sure that left shoulder takes away that whole left side of the hands and arms swing faster back then the shoulder it becomes more difficult to sequence.
Here's Mickey Wright see how quiet her hands and arms are
You'll end up making a fuller turn and hitting it much farther too.

Posted Image

Edited by Macogardy, 07 October 2017 - 10:40 AM.


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#11 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 10:40 AM

More vertical wrist set Geoff.
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#12 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 12:09 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

More vertical wrist set Geoff.

Geoff is a grizzled veteran here and has tried that millions of times. So have I. It does zero good if you do it while pulling your arms in towards your body.

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#13 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 12:33 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

More vertical wrist set Geoff.

Geoff is a grizzled veteran here and has tried that millions of times. So have I. It does zero good if you do it while pulling your arms in towards your body.

That is backwards.  Won't get inside doing this.

https://instagram.com/p/BXtKV-GFmtk/
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#14 Jim Waldron

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 12:59 PM

The real question is simply this: why does Geoff - and millions of other golfers - take it away inside so much?

There is a thread at the top of page one that explains precisely "why".

Every golfer knows the clubhead must move in a circle around your body, and move in an arc to the inside right away during takeaway.

Most mistakenly believe - due to the arm swing illusion - that the only way to create that arc/circle is by pulling your arms into and across the chest. And they do that by pulling in with the right bicep, ie bending the right elbow.

With an onplane takewaway, the understanding is that the vast majority of the arc/circle (actually a vortex shape in the 3D reality our body and club move in) is created by your Pivot.

In Geoff's case, he is doing that pulll the arms inside move as well as hinging the right wrist backwards toward the forearm too much too soon, and not c0cking the wrists upward enough or fast enough.

Geoff needs to keep his right arm straight until after the end of takeaway is reached, along with pushing the hands away from his chest during takeaway by a minimum of four inches. Doing that move properly, ie blended in with good timing with his Pivot, along with the wrists c0cking up more, will slot the shaft on plane.

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#15 Grayback1973

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 01:16 PM

Geoff,do you tend to get out on your toes and feel the weight moving toward the target line?

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#16 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 01:18 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 October 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

More vertical wrist set Geoff.

Geoff is a grizzled veteran here and has tried that millions of times. So have I. It does zero good if you do it while pulling your arms in towards your body.

That is backwards.  Won't get inside doing this.

https://instagram.com/p/BXtKV-GFmtk/
That drill doesn't really teach the takeaway it actually skips the takeaway. Also it doesn't teach the initial push away which is probably the most important thing someone who sucks it in needs to learn.


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#17 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 01:23 PM

View PostJim Waldron, on 07 October 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

The real question is simply this: why does Geoff - and millions of other golfers - take it away inside so much?

There is a thread at the top of page one that explains precisely "why".

Every golfer knows the clubhead must move in a circle around your body, and move in an arc to the inside right away during takeaway.

Most mistakenly believe - due to the arm swing illusion - that the only way to create that arc/circle is by pulling your arms into and across the chest. And they do that by pulling in with the right bicep, ie bending the right elbow.

With an onplane takewaway, the understanding is that the vast majority of the arc/circle (actually a vortex shape in the 3D reality our body and club move in) is created by your Pivot.

In Geoff's case, he is doing that pulll the arms inside move as well as hinging the right wrist backwards toward the forearm too much too soon, and not c0cking the wrists upward enough or fast enough.

Geoff needs to keep his right arm straight until after the end of takeaway is reached, along with pushing the hands away from his chest during takeaway by a minimum of four inches. Doing that move properly, ie blended in with good timing with his Pivot, along with the wrists c0cking up more, will slot the shaft on plane.

I hate to sound like a fan boy. But I still didn't really understand what Jim was teaching until I worked with him. He showed me exactly how to brace the arms and activate my core/abs during the takeaway / backswing.

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#18 Cwebb

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 01:32 PM

Have you read the "Arm Swing illusion" thread?  If not, you need to.

If you want to do an interesting experiment, take some videos of swings where you feel like you're really "wide" and "outside" all the way to the top.  Will be interesting to see where your feel is in relation to reality

Edited by Cwebb, 07 October 2017 - 01:35 PM.


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#19 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 01:38 PM

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 07 October 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

The real question is simply this: why does Geoff - and millions of other golfers - take it away inside so much?

There is a thread at the top of page one that explains precisely "why".

Every golfer knows the clubhead must move in a circle around your body, and move in an arc to the inside right away during takeaway.

Most mistakenly believe - due to the arm swing illusion - that the only way to create that arc/circle is by pulling your arms into and across the chest. And they do that by pulling in with the right bicep, ie bending the right elbow.

With an onplane takewaway, the understanding is that the vast majority of the arc/circle (actually a vortex shape in the 3D reality our body and club move in) is created by your Pivot.

In Geoff's case, he is doing that pulll the arms inside move as well as hinging the right wrist backwards toward the forearm too much too soon, and not c0cking the wrists upward enough or fast enough.

Geoff needs to keep his right arm straight until after the end of takeaway is reached, along with pushing the hands away from his chest during takeaway by a minimum of four inches. Doing that move properly, ie blended in with good timing with his Pivot, along with the wrists c0cking up more, will slot the shaft on plane.

I hate to sound like a fan boy. But I still didn't really understand what Jim was teaching until I worked with him. He showed me exactly how to brace the arms and activate my core/abs during the takeaway / backswing.

What works for you may or may not work for Geoff. Plenty of ways to take it back and get it in a good position at the top as evidenced by guys like Snead/Jones versus someone like DJ. More in then up versus more up then in.

It's what you do with it once you start the transition that makes all the difference. All parts have to work together.

Edited by Ghost of Snead, 07 October 2017 - 01:40 PM.


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#20 jbw749

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 01:45 PM

View PostGhost of Snead, on 07 October 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 07 October 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

The real question is simply this: why does Geoff - and millions of other golfers - take it away inside so much?

There is a thread at the top of page one that explains precisely "why".

Every golfer knows the clubhead must move in a circle around your body, and move in an arc to the inside right away during takeaway.

Most mistakenly believe - due to the arm swing illusion - that the only way to create that arc/circle is by pulling your arms into and across the chest. And they do that by pulling in with the right bicep, ie bending the right elbow.

With an onplane takewaway, the understanding is that the vast majority of the arc/circle (actually a vortex shape in the 3D reality our body and club move in) is created by your Pivot.

In Geoff's case, he is doing that pulll the arms inside move as well as hinging the right wrist backwards toward the forearm too much too soon, and not c0cking the wrists upward enough or fast enough.

Geoff needs to keep his right arm straight until after the end of takeaway is reached, along with pushing the hands away from his chest during takeaway by a minimum of four inches. Doing that move properly, ie blended in with good timing with his Pivot, along with the wrists c0cking up more, will slot the shaft on plane.

I hate to sound like a fan boy. But I still didn't really understand what Jim was teaching until I worked with him. He showed me exactly how to brace the arms and activate my core/abs during the takeaway / backswing.

What works for you may or may not work for Geoff. Plenty of ways to take it back and get it in a good position at the top as evidenced by guys like Snead/Jones versus someone like DJ. More in then up versus more up then in.

It's what you do with it once you start the transition that makes all the difference. All parts have to work together.

I don't remember telling him to "do" anything. Because I agree with you his interpretation may be different.

I do know that Geoff has been around a long time and lives in New Zealand and has flown halfway across the world to see top instructors and his takeaway still looks inside. So whatever Geoff has been trying isn't working.


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#21 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 01:48 PM

 jbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

 Ghost of Snead, on 07 October 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

 jbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

 Jim Waldron, on 07 October 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

The real question is simply this: why does Geoff - and millions of other golfers - take it away inside so much?

There is a thread at the top of page one that explains precisely "why".

Every golfer knows the clubhead must move in a circle around your body, and move in an arc to the inside right away during takeaway.

Most mistakenly believe - due to the arm swing illusion - that the only way to create that arc/circle is by pulling your arms into and across the chest. And they do that by pulling in with the right bicep, ie bending the right elbow.

With an onplane takewaway, the understanding is that the vast majority of the arc/circle (actually a vortex shape in the 3D reality our body and club move in) is created by your Pivot.

In Geoff's case, he is doing that pulll the arms inside move as well as hinging the right wrist backwards toward the forearm too much too soon, and not c0cking the wrists upward enough or fast enough.

Geoff needs to keep his right arm straight until after the end of takeaway is reached, along with pushing the hands away from his chest during takeaway by a minimum of four inches. Doing that move properly, ie blended in with good timing with his Pivot, along with the wrists c0cking up more, will slot the shaft on plane.

I hate to sound like a fan boy. But I still didn't really understand what Jim was teaching until I worked with him. He showed me exactly how to brace the arms and activate my core/abs during the takeaway / backswing.

What works for you may or may not work for Geoff. Plenty of ways to take it back and get it in a good position at the top as evidenced by guys like Snead/Jones versus someone like DJ. More in then up versus more up then in.

It's what you do with it once you start the transition that makes all the difference. All parts have to work together.

I don't remember telling him to "do" anything. Because I agree with you his interpretation may be different.

I do know that Geoff has been around a long time and lives in New Zealand and has flown halfway across the world to see top instructors and his takeaway still looks inside. So whatever Geoff has been trying isn't working.

That's my point ... maybe his "inside" takeaway is not his major issue. I'm not an instructor but watch his upper body movement when he gets to the top.
See post #2.

Edited by Ghost of Snead, 07 October 2017 - 01:51 PM.


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#22 bph7

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 01:50 PM

More vertical wrist set. Feel that as your only move. /thread.

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#23 Grayback1973

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 02:24 PM

This sequence of still shows some things.I have a very difficult time believing that a vertical wrist set will fix these issues.Just my $.02Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
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#24 Grayback1973

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 02:25 PM

His whole body is moving toward the target line from the end of the backswing all the way into the follow through.
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#25 Jim Waldron

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 02:33 PM

If Geoff came to me for a lesson the first thing I would recommend to him is Setup: stand a bit closer to the ball, and show him the Vertical Balance Line concept. His weight is on his toes at the start and moves more toward toes as swing progresses. He is off balance.  In my experience, you are wasting your time working on anything else first, when you have balance issues.

But the inside takeaway is the first weakest link in his swing once the motion starts. So that would be second on the list.

Actually first and second on the physical correction list.

Learning a little bit about Awareness and how the mind works, how to focus your attention in Feel Channel, would be the real first step, for every one of my new students.


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#26 Jim Waldron

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 02:38 PM

 jbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

 Jim Waldron, on 07 October 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

The real question is simply this: why does Geoff - and millions of other golfers - take it away inside so much?

There is a thread at the top of page one that explains precisely "why".

Every golfer knows the clubhead must move in a circle around your body, and move in an arc to the inside right away during takeaway.

Most mistakenly believe - due to the arm swing illusion - that the only way to create that arc/circle is by pulling your arms into and across the chest. And they do that by pulling in with the right bicep, ie bending the right elbow.

With an onplane takewaway, the understanding is that the vast majority of the arc/circle (actually a vortex shape in the 3D reality our body and club move in) is created by your Pivot.

In Geoff's case, he is doing that pulll the arms inside move as well as hinging the right wrist backwards toward the forearm too much too soon, and not c0cking the wrists upward enough or fast enough.

Geoff needs to keep his right arm straight until after the end of takeaway is reached, along with pushing the hands away from his chest during takeaway by a minimum of four inches. Doing that move properly, ie blended in with good timing with his Pivot, along with the wrists c0cking up more, will slot the shaft on plane.

I hate to sound like a fan boy. But I still didn't really understand what Jim was teaching until I worked with him. He showed me exactly how to brace the arms and activate my core/abs during the takeaway / backswing.

Every single student I have worked with, who first heard about the arm swing illusion online or from a friend, has told me exactly this
same thing. They all thought that they "got" the asi, until working with me either in person or via webcam lessons, and then they realized that their understanding was way off.

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#27 David C

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 02:40 PM

Clubs don't fit
Bent over way too much at address
Stance is massively shut, move the right foot forward three inches without moving your hips or shoulders as they are one millimetre
Violently sway loads the right heel, extends right leg too much and too quick, collapses left leg and then springs up and forward in the throughswing.

I'd work on set up, balance and tightening up weight movement

Edited by David C, 07 October 2017 - 02:43 PM.


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#28 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 02:42 PM

Excess late arm lift the result of late wrist set.  Excess late arm lift will cause upper body movement toward target at the top.  Momentum of upper body movement toward target at the top creates motion toward target entire downswing.

Gotta fix first broken link.  Late vertical hinge is not the only issue, but how late it's happening is the first one.
Did you see him smacked up
And cracked up
With his tongue on his chin
And his club in his hand,
Swinging from the rafters
Like a real RocknRolla

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#29 bph7

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 02:44 PM

 Jim Waldron, on 07 October 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

 jbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

 Jim Waldron, on 07 October 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

The real question is simply this: why does Geoff - and millions of other golfers - take it away inside so much?

There is a thread at the top of page one that explains precisely "why".

Every golfer knows the clubhead must move in a circle around your body, and move in an arc to the inside right away during takeaway.

Most mistakenly believe - due to the arm swing illusion - that the only way to create that arc/circle is by pulling your arms into and across the chest. And they do that by pulling in with the right bicep, ie bending the right elbow.

With an onplane takewaway, the understanding is that the vast majority of the arc/circle (actually a vortex shape in the 3D reality our body and club move in) is created by your Pivot.

In Geoff's case, he is doing that pulll the arms inside move as well as hinging the right wrist backwards toward the forearm too much too soon, and not c0cking the wrists upward enough or fast enough.

Geoff needs to keep his right arm straight until after the end of takeaway is reached, along with pushing the hands away from his chest during takeaway by a minimum of four inches. Doing that move properly, ie blended in with good timing with his Pivot, along with the wrists c0cking up more, will slot the shaft on plane.

I hate to sound like a fan boy. But I still didn't really understand what Jim was teaching until I worked with him. He showed me exactly how to brace the arms and activate my core/abs during the takeaway / backswing.

Every single student I have worked with, who first heard about the arm swing illusion online or from a friend, has told me exactly this
same thing. They all thought that they "got" the asi, until working with me either in person or via webcam lessons, and then they realized that their understanding was way off.

Isn’t the “illusion” essentially a misunderstanding of how the arms are supposed to work? You have a video on your thread showing exactly what to do to get out of the spell of the illusion. Am I right that the bracing and core movements are more practical swing advice to implement to eliminate problems associated with the illusion, rather than a misunderstanding of what the illusion itself is?

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#30 Jim Waldron

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 02:47 PM

 bph7, on 07 October 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

 Jim Waldron, on 07 October 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

 jbw749, on 07 October 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

 Jim Waldron, on 07 October 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

The real question is simply this: why does Geoff - and millions of other golfers - take it away inside so much?

There is a thread at the top of page one that explains precisely "why".

Every golfer knows the clubhead must move in a circle around your body, and move in an arc to the inside right away during takeaway.

Most mistakenly believe - due to the arm swing illusion - that the only way to create that arc/circle is by pulling your arms into and across the chest. And they do that by pulling in with the right bicep, ie bending the right elbow.

With an onplane takewaway, the understanding is that the vast majority of the arc/circle (actually a vortex shape in the 3D reality our body and club move in) is created by your Pivot.

In Geoff's case, he is doing that pulll the arms inside move as well as hinging the right wrist backwards toward the forearm too much too soon, and not c0cking the wrists upward enough or fast enough.

Geoff needs to keep his right arm straight until after the end of takeaway is reached, along with pushing the hands away from his chest during takeaway by a minimum of four inches. Doing that move properly, ie blended in with good timing with his Pivot, along with the wrists c0cking up more, will slot the shaft on plane.

I hate to sound like a fan boy. But I still didn't really understand what Jim was teaching until I worked with him. He showed me exactly how to brace the arms and activate my core/abs during the takeaway / backswing.

Every single student I have worked with, who first heard about the arm swing illusion online or from a friend, has told me exactly this
same thing. They all thought that they "got" the asi, until working with me either in person or via webcam lessons, and then they realized that their understanding was way off.

Isn't the "illusion" essentially a misunderstanding of how the arms are supposed to work? You have a video on your thread showing exactly what to do to get out of the spell of the illusion. Am I right that the bracing and core movements are more practical swing advice to implement to eliminate problems associated with the illusion, rather than a misunderstanding of what the illusion itself is?

In simple terms - yes. The illusion has to do with how the upper arms move, in the shoulder joint and relative to the chest, but the illusion also impacts how you pivot, and how you use your wrists in the golf swing.  You can work on the illusion directly through upper arm training, and/or indirectly by working on the muscles that create the Pivot.  The two approaches reinforce each other.


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