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What can we agree on?


51 replies to this topic

#31 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:34 AM

View PostBigBad, on 09 October 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

Feel isn't real.  The one golf constant.

Nope. Feel is misunderstood. It only represents part of what we're doing and it varies greatly. If feel were entirely delusional, you'd have to start all over again from scratch every time you picked up a club.


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#32 royourboat

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:37 AM

I love these topics, but they don't get much love. I suspect too many people are afraid of raising their hand in the classroom. You're allowed to be wrong, you're allowed to speculate, it's an online forum, it won't be written on your tombstone. In fact it's practically the point of a forum. It's natural to start with theories and ideas. They can become hypotheses. If there seems to be merit, they might get tested and we might find something out to create new theories and ideas that are more accurate. Hell, a decent thread like this might stop threads on basic questions that annoy the guru's.

Although I can appreciate we all have anatomical differences and variations in the way we move. It must be highly dubious to think that the best of the best ballstrikers can all swing wildly different. Scott and Furyk probably share a great many things. I don't have any data, to analyse, so I'm speculating but here goes..

Find me a top ball striker who doesn't shift pressure towards the trail foot in the backswing.
Find me a top ball striker who doesn't radially deviate lead wrist in the backswing.
Find me a top ball striker who doesn't rotate shoulders near maximally in the backswing*.
Find me a top ball striker who internally rotates their trail shoulder in transition.
Find me a top ball striker who steepens the shaft in transition*.
Find me a top ball striker who extends their lead wrist in the downswing*.
Find me a top ball striker who hasn't opened their hips significantly by impact.
Find me a top ball striker who hasn't opened their shoulders significantly by impact.
Find me a top ball striker whose hands don't rise before impact.
Find me a top ball striker whose pressure hasn't shifted excessively to the front foot by end of swing.

You can add several other factors related to a good strike, but I assume that's a given. The * could use some better language, but that probably requires elaborate definitions. I think they're quite a few others, but I think they're closer to the middle ground. The list above I believe are much closer to the "must have" end of the spectrum.
I like to tee the ball up.. using man sized clubs.

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 09 June 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

View Postmothman65, on 09 June 2017 - 12:09 AM, said:

Is Melbourne getting any closer to happening Momte?

Still need some more, but it's pretty likely I'll come.  Just don't know when yet.

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#33 Nard_S

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:50 AM

There are principles that are stalwart and work because the physic's and geometry's are true.

Getting to them is the problem. How it is communicated. How it's taught  and how it is interpreted and implemented is where things go off.

What Snead did and Rory does are really the same because they both adhere to those principles as do most great strikers in various forms.

As an enthusiast, you have to identify the principles & assess your abilities against them. Then ascertain how to get closer to them by choosing from wide array of methods. Most fun & aggravation I have had with the game in last 2 years is trying to do just that.

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#34 RichieHunt

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:59 AM

There is not a lot to agree on because you have various ways to make major movements in the golf swing and the other pieces involved in the swing need to be compatible and then you have the human body which is different not only in terms of size, but the biological makeup which means those pieces to the swing can alter.  

I actually believe that there are some golfers that are basically making almost identical movements in their swing, but their swings are not anywhere near looking similar just due to differences in the golfer's size, weight, arm length, leg length, flexibility, strength, etc.

That's why I think it's nearly impossible to write a golf instruction book that encompasses everything.  







RH

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#35 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:11 AM

View Postroyourboat, on 10 October 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Find me a top ball striker who doesn't radially deviate lead wrist in the backswing.

For golfers with very strong lead hand grips (like Azinger strong), if there is radial deviation, it doesn't serve the same purpose as it does for a golfer with a more neutral or weak grip. That purpose, in a very strong grip, is served by cupping the back of the lead hand. If I'm correct in that assertion, then what do we say about golfers who bow their lead wrist at the top of the backswing instead of cupping it? Are they doing without that function entirely? (I don't know if Dustin Johnson's or Lee Trevino's grips are strong enough not to get some of the benefit radial deviation gives to those with a more neutral grip.)


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#36 vman

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:00 AM

There are so many ways to deliver a club face, it would seem the backswing is only a means to create and accurately apply speed to the club head.
There is no consensus on how this should be done and indeed maybe there shouldn't be. But a youtube trawl of Miller Barber, Lee Trevino, Jim Thorpe, Eammon Darcy, Jim Furyk, Fred Couples, Hubert Green, Colin Montgomerie, Ray Floyd, Isao Aoki, etc,etc, would show a myriad of beautiful, different and effective golf swings. What is it they all share? Is it just talent, an ability to move in a way that most can't, a lot of the names listed are by no means athletes but ,boy, they were good at golf.
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#37 royourboat

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:05 AM

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 10 October 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

View Postroyourboat, on 10 October 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Find me a top ball striker who doesn't radially deviate lead wrist in the backswing.

For golfers with very strong lead hand grips (like Azinger strong), if there is radial deviation, it doesn't serve the same purpose as it does for a golfer with a more neutral or weak grip. That purpose, in a very strong grip, is served by cupping the back of the lead hand. If I'm correct in that assertion, then what do we say about golfers who bow their lead wrist at the top of the backswing instead of cupping it? Are they doing without that function entirely? (I don't know if Dustin Johnson's or Lee Trevino's grips are strong enough not to get some of the benefit radial deviation gives to those with a more neutral grip.)

I'm not sure I understand the full statement, particularly because you mention the cupping serving the same purpose as I radial deviation. What are you referring to?

I mentioned radial deviation as to hit the ball effectively you have to rotate several joints to allow range of motion for club to accelerate.
1. Ankles, knees and hips (normally turn a fair bit, but you could avoid or minimise use, so I put them in the maybe pile).
2. Shoulders (must, you don't find a top ball striker without a big turn).
3. Lead arm internal rotation and trail arm external rotation is generally seen (but you could argue its not necessary..?)
4. Lead wrist radial deviation. I could see it as a "you don't have to", it starts in whatever position and stays there or increases ulnar deviation towards impact. But I'd be keen to understand you're point to clarify. Maybe it would help if I said, if DJ or similar setup to the ball and they could maintain arm position, but radially deviate the lead wrist such that the club leaves the ground, they "can" use it and I believe they all are using it.
5. Trail wrist extension. I didn't add this to the list in the backswing because I don't believe you would have to. Do they all do at least some of it, I think that is obvious, but it's probably not necessary until the downswing.
I like to tee the ball up.. using man sized clubs.

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 09 June 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

View Postmothman65, on 09 June 2017 - 12:09 AM, said:

Is Melbourne getting any closer to happening Momte?

Still need some more, but it's pretty likely I'll come.  Just don't know when yet.

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#38 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:59 AM

royourboat, if you didn't swing the club back and just stood at address, with a neutral grip, radial deviation would bring the club straight up away from the ground. If you did the exact same thing, but with a super strong grip, radial deviation would bring the club straight back away from the target. In order to get the club to stand straight up, while standing at address with a super strong grip, one must cup the wrist. With a more moderately strengthened grip, radial deviation would move the club about 45deg. back away from the golfer, while cupping would move it 45deg. forward away from the golfer. So, essentially what I'm saying is that radial deviation directs the club in a variety of directions depending on how 'weak', or 'strong' the lead hand grip is.


Note: I should add that, in actual practice, this is not as neat as I've described it.

Edited by Petunia Sprinkle, 10 October 2017 - 12:02 PM.


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#39 royourboat

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:06 PM

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 10 October 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

royourboat, if you didn't swing the club back and just stood at address, with a neutral grip, radial deviation would bring the club straight up away from the ground. If you did the exact same thing, but with a super strong grip, radial deviation would bring the club straight back away from the target. In order to get the club to stand straight up, while standing at address with a super strong grip, one must cup the wrist. With a more moderately strengthened grip, radial deviation would move the club about 45deg. back away from the golfer, while cupping would move it 45deg. forward away from the golfer. So, essentially what I'm saying is that radial deviation directs the club in a variety of directions depending on how 'weak', or 'strong' the lead hand grip is.


Note: I should add that, in actual practice, this is not as neat as I've described it.

Ok, I understand the above, you're grip affects how RD moves the club. But I was talking about the joint ROM alone being loaded by all great ballstrikers, including those that have strong grips, so as long as the club leaves the ground when in a stationary address position, it loaded. To which I'm not sure you've raised a counter-point?

However, I think the swings of John Rahm & Daniel Berger require me to scrub that point or re-phrase it to include the downswing as the window in which that anatomical ROM can load for it to later unload into ball.
I like to tee the ball up.. using man sized clubs.

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 09 June 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

View Postmothman65, on 09 June 2017 - 12:09 AM, said:

Is Melbourne getting any closer to happening Momte?

Still need some more, but it's pretty likely I'll come.  Just don't know when yet.

9

#40 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:17 PM

View Postroyourboat, on 10 October 2017 - 11:06 PM, said:

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 10 October 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

royourboat, if you didn't swing the club back and just stood at address, with a neutral grip, radial deviation would bring the club straight up away from the ground. If you did the exact same thing, but with a super strong grip, radial deviation would bring the club straight back away from the target. In order to get the club to stand straight up, while standing at address with a super strong grip, one must cup the wrist. With a more moderately strengthened grip, radial deviation would move the club about 45deg. back away from the golfer, while cupping would move it 45deg. forward away from the golfer. So, essentially what I'm saying is that radial deviation directs the club in a variety of directions depending on how 'weak', or 'strong' the lead hand grip is.


Note: I should add that, in actual practice, this is not as neat as I've described it.

Ok, I understand the above, you're grip affects how RD moves the club. But I was talking about the joint ROM alone being loaded by all great ballstrikers, including those that have strong grips, so as long as the club leaves the ground when in a stationary address position, it loaded. To which I'm not sure you've raised a counter-point?

However, I think the swings of John Rahm & Daniel Berger require me to scrub that point or re-phrase it to include the downswing as the window in which that anatomical ROM can load for it to later unload into ball.

While radial deviation may occur in many great ballstrikers swings, to be clear, I'm asserting that radial deviation plays significantly differing roles depending on grip style, certainly, at least, in the extremes. So, I think it goes without saying that this, too, is something upon which we cannot agree.

At least, we all use clubs...well, excepting disc golfers.


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#41 northgolf

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:53 PM

In regard to the OP title, not a d*** thing.  Next question is when are the disagreements informative?
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#42 vman

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 04:08 AM

View Postnorthgolf, on 10 October 2017 - 11:53 PM, said:

In regard to the OP title, not a d*** thing.  Next question is when are the disagreements informative?
Well surely we can agree on some things, what about for starters:
1. Ball flight laws and the biggest determinant being the club face.
2. For a right handed golfer the importance of the pressure/hold of the last 2 fingers of the left hand.
3. The need for dynamic balance.
4. The creation of speed that the arms can pass on to the club head…the more the better if accurately applied.
5. Never letting pressure move to the outside of the right foot in the backswing.
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#43 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 08:55 AM

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 10 October 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

View PostBigBad, on 09 October 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

Feel isn't real.  The one golf constant.

Nope. Feel is misunderstood. It only represents part of what we're doing and it varies greatly. If feel were entirely delusional, you'd have to start all over again from scratch every time you picked up a club.

And another thing...feel, like taste, is highly individual. It's nearly useless for two or more people to discuss either with any hope for commonality. Consider that old joke "what's the difference between broccoli and boogers? Kids'll eat boogers", and yet, there are some people who can't get enough of the deep green floret. A golf instructor, with a background as a baseball pitcher, is not going to get very far if he uses the analogy of 'throwing the club at the ball' with some dude who 'throws like a girl'.

(There was something else I was going to say about feel, but I've completely forgotten what it was, if the above feels somewhat unfinished.)

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#44 Nard_S

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 09:03 AM

A couple things of other things::

-  Rotational axis of swing  is upper spine
- Shoulders maintain near perpendicular rotation to it throughout.
- Trail elbow in the lead of arm triangle from transition to P6.
- Elbows are closer together at impact than at address and pretty much any other point of swing.
- Hands are further back in relation to upper spine at impact then at address.

Edited by Nard_S, 11 October 2017 - 09:04 AM.


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#45 northgolf

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:12 PM

View Postvman, on 11 October 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:

View Postnorthgolf, on 10 October 2017 - 11:53 PM, said:

In regard to the OP title, not a d*** thing.  Next question is when are the disagreements informative?
Well surely we can agree on some things, what about for starters:
1. Ball flight laws and the biggest determinant being the club face.
2. For a right handed golfer the importance of the pressure/hold of the last 2 fingers of the left hand.
3. The need for dynamic balance.
4. The creation of speed that the arms can pass on to the club head…the more the better if accurately applied.
5. Never letting pressure move to the outside of the right foot in the backswing.

I have witnessed 1, 2, 3, & 4 argued here extensively with no agreement ever being reached.

I can't say I've seen 5 discussed here, but I bet there are people who feel keeping the pressure on the inside of the trail foot restricts the backswing - this would be close to the "do you flare the trail foot" type of discussion which has the same effect.

If I do this 11,548 more times, I will be having fun.  - Zippy the Pinhead

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#46 vman

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:09 PM

View Postnorthgolf, on 11 October 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

View Postvman, on 11 October 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:

View Postnorthgolf, on 10 October 2017 - 11:53 PM, said:

In regard to the OP title, not a d*** thing.  Next question is when are the disagreements informative?
Well surely we can agree on some things, what about for starters:
1. Ball flight laws and the biggest determinant being the club face.
2. For a right handed golfer the importance of the pressure/hold of the last 2 fingers of the left hand.
3. The need for dynamic balance.
4. The creation of speed that the arms can pass on to the club head…the more the better if accurately applied.
5. Never letting pressure move to the outside of the right foot in the backswing.

I have witnessed 1, 2, 3, & 4 argued here extensively with no agreement ever being reached.

I can't say I've seen 5 discussed here, but I bet there are people who feel keeping the pressure on the inside of the trail foot restricts the backswing - this would be close to the "do you flare the trail foot" type of discussion which has the same effect.
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#47 Gamble Gamble

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 03:05 PM

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 07 October 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

Because the perception of reality is, at best, no better than individual, we can't agree on anything. We can delude ourselves into thinking we agree, but we don't. For example, we can talk about the color red and think we all know, generally, what that looks like, and for most of us, that's that, but each of our experiences is different. What was the shade of red that stood out to us most when we first learned the color (did you think 'fire truck' when you read that?)? How do we even know, when looking at the same red object, that object is imagined as the same color in our minds' eye? We both call it 'red', but you might imagine that red as what we call 'blue' and I might imagine it as 'lime green', or 'cadmium orange'.

In his book The Great Cat Massacre (being a 'weird cat person', it's a title I don't like), Robert Darnton discusses his assertion that we are not all essentially the same but essentially different, and the key to understanding any other person, culture, or era comes from looking at that which puzzles us most. That understanding becomes the basis for mutual tolerance.

There is some TED Talk in which the presenter suggests that a grasp on actual reality is not so important. All we need is a positive enough delusion that we are somehow connected to reality in order to procreate. And, if Richard Dawkins is to be believed, we have no say in the matter as we are nothing but servants of our DNA (I might not have that exactly right).

All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration.  We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there's no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we're just an imagination of ourselves.

- Bill Hicks

____________

Observing reality becomes much clearer as you go further away from the self, but as you try to reflect on yourself your vision is distorted by the gravity of your own self-perception.  It is easier to see the flaws in others than to see the flaws in your own golf swing.  

Then add in communication flaws and you have a subject ripe for nuanced arguments where neither side understands each other's point and both sides are yelling into the void.

TL:DR:  Lag is the most important thing in the golf swing.
/sarcasm
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#48 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 07:56 PM

View PostGamble Gamble, on 11 October 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 07 October 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

Because the perception of reality is, at best, no better than individual, we can't agree on anything. We can delude ourselves into thinking we agree, but we don't. For example, we can talk about the color red and think we all know, generally, what that looks like, and for most of us, that's that, but each of our experiences is different. What was the shade of red that stood out to us most when we first learned the color (did you think 'fire truck' when you read that?)? How do we even know, when looking at the same red object, that object is imagined as the same color in our minds' eye? We both call it 'red', but you might imagine that red as what we call 'blue' and I might imagine it as 'lime green', or 'cadmium orange'.

In his book The Great Cat Massacre (being a 'weird cat person', it's a title I don't like), Robert Darnton discusses his assertion that we are not all essentially the same but essentially different, and the key to understanding any other person, culture, or era comes from looking at that which puzzles us most. That understanding becomes the basis for mutual tolerance.

There is some TED Talk in which the presenter suggests that a grasp on actual reality is not so important. All we need is a positive enough delusion that we are somehow connected to reality in order to procreate. And, if Richard Dawkins is to be believed, we have no say in the matter as we are nothing but servants of our DNA (I might not have that exactly right).

All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration.  We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there's no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we're just an imagination of ourselves.

- Bill Hicks

____________

Observing reality becomes much clearer as you go further away from the self, but as you try to reflect on yourself your vision is distorted by the gravity of your own self-perception.  It is easier to see the flaws in others than to see the flaws in your own golf swing.  

Then add in communication flaws and you have a subject ripe for nuanced arguments where neither side understands each other's point and both sides are yelling into the void.

TL:DR:  Lag is the most important thing in the golf swing.
/sarcasm

It is better to have known lag and lost it than never to have known it at all.

18

#49 smokey7817

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:34 PM

A slow golf swing takes 1.25 seconds. That is not much time to hit 12 positions and square the face up.  I think what we can agree on is that there are more conflicting theories and an abundance of instruction concerning a golf swing than any other athletic movement ever.

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#50 Atrayn

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:56 PM

View Postsmokey7817, on 12 October 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

A slow golf swing takes 1.25 seconds. That is not much time to hit 12 positions and square the face up.  I think what we can agree on is that there are more conflicting theories and an abundance of instruction concerning a golf swing than any other athletic movement ever.

Actually, I don't think that there are too many conflicting theories, just too many conflicting theorists...

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#51 Petunia Sprinkle

Petunia Sprinkle

    Future King of France

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:18 PM

View PostAtrayn, on 12 October 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

View Postsmokey7817, on 12 October 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

A slow golf swing takes 1.25 seconds. That is not much time to hit 12 positions and square the face up.  I think what we can agree on is that there are more conflicting theories and an abundance of instruction concerning a golf swing than any other athletic movement ever.

Actually, I don't think that there are too many conflicting theories, just too many conflicting theorists...

It's the long winded ones who need to go.

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#52 Atrayn

Atrayn

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:01 AM

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 12 October 2017 - 05:18 PM, said:

View PostAtrayn, on 12 October 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

View Postsmokey7817, on 12 October 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

A slow golf swing takes 1.25 seconds. That is not much time to hit 12 positions and square the face up.  I think what we can agree on is that there are more conflicting theories and an abundance of instruction concerning a golf swing than any other athletic movement ever.

Actually, I don't think that there are too many conflicting theories, just too many conflicting theorists...

It's the long winded ones who need to go.

I don't have a problem with long winded as long as they are not confusing and trying to state something that isn't true or trying to repackage something that exists as something different.
I also don't have any issues with trying to explain the same thing in another way because I know people interpret the same thing differently.
The problem lies in the fact that way too many people do not understand the differences or similarities between swing patterns.

They want a swing like Adam Scott or Justin Thomas or Jordan Spieth but are physically incapable. There is no quick fix. The younger you are the easier it is. The longer you have played the harder it is to fix a major swing fault.
Most people don't have the patience to put in the time required and the equipment manufacturers have brainwashed the general public to believe that the equipment will be the quick fix. Case in point, the new CBX wedges that Dave Pelz is promoting to the 5-6 level "good players"
Callaway DBD w/ Aldila Rogue silver
Tour Edge Exotics XCG3 3W
Callaway RZR Fit Extreme 5W
Tour Edge Exotics EX10 hybrid 3 w/ UST Recoil 670
Cobra AMP Forged 4-GW w/KBS Tour black nickel S
Miura 54 & 58 wedges
Ping Cadence Rustler Traditional putter

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