Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

New PGA tour drug testing policy


99 replies to this topic

#61 Outlier

Outlier

    OUTLIER

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 968 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 105230
  • Joined: 03/23/2010
  • Location:Ice Cold in Charlotte, NC
  • Handicap:1906
GolfWRX Likes : 277

Posted 08 October 2017 - 05:47 PM

View PostVNutz, on 05 October 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

The biggest part of this IMO is that they'll now publicly announce offenders. No more hiding behind "jet ski moving incidents" or "personal time" situations. Once labeled a cheater the stigma sticks and the sponsors will go away and stay away.

I do think they have incredible work ethic.  There is no PED that substitutes for putting in the work...  it's just that they are scientifically maximizing every single thing they do.  Given the risk/reward calculation why wouldn't they?   Come-on I mean $250MM or whatever.  "Oh they are testing blood at the Olympics?" ...... "I am afraid of Zika".


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#62 Outlier

Outlier

    OUTLIER

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 968 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 105230
  • Joined: 03/23/2010
  • Location:Ice Cold in Charlotte, NC
  • Handicap:1906
GolfWRX Likes : 277

Posted 08 October 2017 - 05:54 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 05 October 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

I don't think most of you guys understand what's changed.   They've ALWAYS reported performance enhancing drug suspensions publicly.   There was no hiding if you got caught with anything performance enhancing/banned substances.

The change is they are now publicly reporting recreational drug test failures.   This were the ones you could lie and hide.

Haven't they now for the first time gone to a "serious" testing regime?  ie. WADA / blood.....which they never did before.  The viles of blood remain on file and they can go back and test sample from years gone by once their PhD's figure out what the other PhD's had been doing.

2

#63 iteachgolf

iteachgolf

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,495 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 14489
  • Joined: 04/30/2006
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL
GolfWRX Likes : 4833

Posted 08 October 2017 - 06:45 PM

View PostOutlier, on 08 October 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 05 October 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

I don't think most of you guys understand what's changed.   They've ALWAYS reported performance enhancing drug suspensions publicly.   There was no hiding if you got caught with anything performance enhancing/banned substances.

The change is they are now publicly reporting recreational drug test failures.   This were the ones you could lie and hide.

Haven't they now for the first time gone to a "serious" testing regime?  ie. WADA / blood.....which they never did before.  The viles of blood remain on file and they can go back and test sample from years gone by once their PhD's figure out what the other PhD's had been doing.

Go read the context my post was in response to.  It was guys claiming that in the past players had failed test for PEDs and hid it by claiming injuries or etc.   Which has never been possible.

3

#64 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,901 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:1.7
GolfWRX Likes : 4760

Posted 08 October 2017 - 06:51 PM

View PostOutlier, on 08 October 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

View PostVNutz, on 05 October 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

The biggest part of this IMO is that they'll now publicly announce offenders. No more hiding behind "jet ski moving incidents" or "personal time" situations. Once labeled a cheater the stigma sticks and the sponsors will go away and stay away.

I do think they have incredible work ethic.  There is no PED that substitutes for putting in the work...  it's just that they are scientifically maximizing every single thing they do.  Given the risk/reward calculation why wouldn't they?   Come-on I mean $250MM or whatever.  "Oh they are testing blood at the Olympics?" ...... "I am afraid of Zika".
So are they scientifically maximizing every thing they do, which is legal, or scientifically cheating with ped's? I would expect every serious player to max out diet, workout routine, exercise and legal supplements.
  But you feel by maximizing 90% cross the line into banned substances?

View PostOutlier, on 08 October 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

View PostVNutz, on 05 October 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

The biggest part of this IMO is that they'll now publicly announce offenders. No more hiding behind "jet ski moving incidents" or "personal time" situations. Once labeled a cheater the stigma sticks and the sponsors will go away and stay away.

I do think they have incredible work ethic.  There is no PED that substitutes for putting in the work...  it's just that they are scientifically maximizing every single thing they do.  Given the risk/reward calculation why wouldn't they?   Come-on I mean $250MM or whatever.  "Oh they are testing blood at the Olympics?" ...... "I am afraid of Zika".
So are they scientifically maximizing every thing they do, which is legal, or scientifically cheating with ped's? I would expect every serious player to max out diet, workout routine, exercise and legal supplements.
  But you feel by maximizing 90% cross the line into banned substances?
TM M1 8.5*  Tensei Pro White 50TX
TM M1 3w 14*  Kuro Kage 70X
Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-PW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Cleveland  RTX CB 50* 54* 58* Nippon 125 wedge
Toulon Garage Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

4

#65 raynorfan1

raynorfan1

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,775 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119065
  • Joined: 12/17/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 678

Posted 08 October 2017 - 07:11 PM

View PostShilgy, on 08 October 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

So are they scientifically maximizing every thing they do, which is legal, or scientifically cheating with ped's? I would expect every serious player to max out diet, workout routine, exercise and legal supplements So are they scientifically maximizing every thing they do, which is legal, or scientifically cheating with ped's? I would expect every serious player to max out diet, workout routine, exercise and legal supplements.
  But you feel by maximizing 90% cross the line into banned substances?

There is a pervasive attitude in sport that "it's not cheating unless you get caught" - with no blood testing, PGA players could not be caught for HGH. You think they wouldn't use it?

The PGA is basically where baseball was in 2001/2002 (when steroids weren't technically "banned"). In a world where Vijay is using some obscure deer antler spray to enhance performance, we're meant to believe that everybody else is totally clean?


5

#66 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,901 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:1.7
GolfWRX Likes : 4760

Posted 08 October 2017 - 07:21 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 October 2017 - 07:11 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 08 October 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

So are they scientifically maximizing every thing they do, which is legal, or scientifically cheating with ped's? I would expect every serious player to max out diet, workout routine, exercise and legal supplements So are they scientifically maximizing every thing they do, which is legal, or scientifically cheating with ped's? I would expect every serious player to max out diet, workout routine, exercise and legal supplements.
  But you feel by maximizing 90% cross the line into banned substances?

There is a pervasive attitude in sport that "it's not cheating unless you get caught" - with no blood testing, PGA players could not be caught for HGH. You think they wouldn't use it?

The PGA is basically where baseball was in 2001/2002 (when steroids weren't technically "banned"). In a world where Vijay is using some obscure deer antler spray to enhance performance, we're meant to believe that everybody else is totally clean?
Or, in your opinion we're to believe that because they don't test that everyone, oops "just" 90%, will cheat because no one's looking?
  Do you feel that way about all of your golf buddies as well? If you're not looking they're cheating?
TM M1 8.5*  Tensei Pro White 50TX
TM M1 3w 14*  Kuro Kage 70X
Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-PW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Cleveland  RTX CB 50* 54* 58* Nippon 125 wedge
Toulon Garage Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

6

#67 Outlier

Outlier

    OUTLIER

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 968 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 105230
  • Joined: 03/23/2010
  • Location:Ice Cold in Charlotte, NC
  • Handicap:1906
GolfWRX Likes : 277

Posted 08 October 2017 - 07:28 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 October 2017 - 07:11 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 08 October 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

So are they scientifically maximizing every thing they do, which is legal, or scientifically cheating with ped's? I would expect every serious player to max out diet, workout routine, exercise and legal supplements So are they scientifically maximizing every thing they do, which is legal, or scientifically cheating with ped's? I would expect every serious player to max out diet, workout routine, exercise and legal supplements.
  But you feel by maximizing 90% cross the line into banned substances?

There is a pervasive attitude in sport that "it's not cheating unless you get caught" - with no blood testing, PGA players could not be caught for HGH. You think they wouldn't use it?

The PGA is basically where baseball was in 2001/2002 (when steroids weren't technically "banned"). In a world where Vijay is using some obscure deer antler spray to enhance performance, we're meant to believe that everybody else is totally clean?

Yes...you said it better than I.  This is exactly what I believe.  

and yes- they cried "Zika" instead of dealing with WADA's regime at the Olympics.

7

#68 raynorfan1

raynorfan1

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,775 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119065
  • Joined: 12/17/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 678

Posted 08 October 2017 - 07:29 PM

View PostShilgy, on 08 October 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 October 2017 - 07:11 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 08 October 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

So are they scientifically maximizing every thing they do, which is legal, or scientifically cheating with ped's? I would expect every serious player to max out diet, workout routine, exercise and legal supplements So are they scientifically maximizing every thing they do, which is legal, or scientifically cheating with ped's? I would expect every serious player to max out diet, workout routine, exercise and legal supplements.
  But you feel by maximizing 90% cross the line into banned substances?

There is a pervasive attitude in sport that "it's not cheating unless you get caught" - with no blood testing, PGA players could not be caught for HGH. You think they wouldn't use it?

The PGA is basically where baseball was in 2001/2002 (when steroids weren't technically "banned"). In a world where Vijay is using some obscure deer antler spray to enhance performance, we're meant to believe that everybody else is totally clean?
Or, in your opinion we're to believe that because they don't test that everyone, oops "just" 90%, will cheat because no one's looking?
  Do you feel that way about all of your golf buddies as well? If you're not looking they're cheating?

My golf buddies don't have (tens of) millions of dollars and their careers at stake, with no downside.

But yes, I think if those were the stakes, my buddies would cheat when I wasn't looking.

Edited by raynorfan1, 08 October 2017 - 07:30 PM.


8

#69 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,901 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:1.7
GolfWRX Likes : 4760

Posted 08 October 2017 - 10:01 PM

Sorry to hear that.
TM M1 8.5*  Tensei Pro White 50TX
TM M1 3w 14*  Kuro Kage 70X
Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-PW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Cleveland  RTX CB 50* 54* 58* Nippon 125 wedge
Toulon Garage Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

9

#70 PowderedToastMan

PowderedToastMan

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,712 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 141617
  • Joined: 10/07/2011
  • Location:Calgary, Canada
GolfWRX Likes : 2544

Posted 08 October 2017 - 10:58 PM

Having played professionally, itís much more likely a golfer would use benzodiazepines and/or ADHD medications. Pro golfers are obsessed with anything affecting their touch, and are always searching for ways to get in the zone and reduce pressure/anxiety. It would take a desperate player to take drugs that could likely negatively affect their emotions.

Regarding anxiety, Greg Norman publicly stated years ago that during his prime players were using beta blockers. He referenced them being nervous wrecks on Saturday nights and calm and cool Sunday.

I personally think the big name players who are getting injured (Tiger and Rory) are from overtraining, not from prolonged HGH/steroid use. From what Iíve seen about Mcilroyís routine, it doesnít make sense, and seems to hurt his body more than any gains heís making.

So many of you believe everyone cheats. Not in professional sports. Steroids and HGH arenít the miracle drugs you might think. They may have added some feet to Barry Bondsí HRís, but sure didnít help him stay in the field. The jacked up dude could barely even run bases during the end of his career, same with McGuire. HGH and steroids just donít make sense for golf. Itís a game of touch, a target sport.

Former professional golfer. Current amateur human being. Reformed club ho.

In the bag:

PING G30 8.4 w/ Tour 65 Stiff 44.25"
PING G30 13.5 w/ TFC 419F X
PING G30 17.5 w/ Tour 80 X
PING G25 20 w/ TFC 189 X
PING S55 4-PW w/ KBS Tour X
PING Tour Gorge 52; Glide 58 TS w/ CFS X
Yes! Sandy 12 38"

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#71 Outlier

Outlier

    OUTLIER

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 968 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 105230
  • Joined: 03/23/2010
  • Location:Ice Cold in Charlotte, NC
  • Handicap:1906
GolfWRX Likes : 277

Posted 09 October 2017 - 07:34 AM

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 08 October 2017 - 10:58 PM, said:

Having played professionally, it's much more likely a golfer would use benzodiazepines and/or ADHD medications. Pro golfers are obsessed with anything affecting their touch, and are always searching for ways to get in the zone and reduce pressure/anxiety. It would take a desperate player to take drugs that could likely negatively affect their emotions.

Regarding anxiety, Greg Norman publicly stated years ago that during his prime players were using beta blockers. He referenced them being nervous wrecks on Saturday nights and calm and cool Sunday.

I personally think the big name players who are getting injured (Tiger and Rory) are from overtraining, not from prolonged HGH/steroid use. From what I've seen about Mcilroy's routine, it doesn't make sense, and seems to hurt his body more than any gains he's making.

So many of you believe everyone cheats. Not in professional sports. Steroids and HGH aren't the miracle drugs you might think. They may have added some feet to Barry Bonds' HR's, but sure didn't help him stay in the field. The jacked up dude could barely even run bases during the end of his career, same with McGuire. HGH and steroids just don't make sense for golf. It's a game of touch, a target sport.

Did Lance Armstrong looked "jacked" to you?  Why do you presume that "target and touch" are mutually exclusive of PED use?  

I am a big Rory fan, and like Scotty too but again I point to Occum's Razor......who on this planet withdraws from the chance at Olympic immortality without good reason?  (FYI Bahamas, Florida also have mosquitoes)

11

#72 Outlier

Outlier

    OUTLIER

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 968 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 105230
  • Joined: 03/23/2010
  • Location:Ice Cold in Charlotte, NC
  • Handicap:1906
GolfWRX Likes : 277

Posted 09 October 2017 - 07:36 AM

View PostShilgy, on 08 October 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 October 2017 - 07:11 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 08 October 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

So are they scientifically maximizing every thing they do, which is legal, or scientifically cheating with ped's? I would expect every serious player to max out diet, workout routine, exercise and legal supplements So are they scientifically maximizing every thing they do, which is legal, or scientifically cheating with ped's? I would expect every serious player to max out diet, workout routine, exercise and legal supplements.
  But you feel by maximizing 90% cross the line into banned substances?

There is a pervasive attitude in sport that "it's not cheating unless you get caught" - with no blood testing, PGA players could not be caught for HGH. You think they wouldn't use it?

The PGA is basically where baseball was in 2001/2002 (when steroids weren't technically "banned"). In a world where Vijay is using some obscure deer antler spray to enhance performance, we're meant to believe that everybody else is totally clean?
Or, in your opinion we're to believe that because they don't test that everyone, oops "just" 90%, will cheat because no one's looking?
  Do you feel that way about all of your golf buddies as well? If you're not looking they're cheating?
like everyone on the highway doing 68 mph in a 55.

12

#73 marmooskapaul

marmooskapaul

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,013 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 13039
  • Joined: 03/05/2006
  • Location:Indiana
GolfWRX Likes : 398

Posted 09 October 2017 - 01:11 PM

View PostOutlier, on 09 October 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 08 October 2017 - 10:58 PM, said:

Having played professionally, it's much more likely a golfer would use benzodiazepines and/or ADHD medications. Pro golfers are obsessed with anything affecting their touch, and are always searching for ways to get in the zone and reduce pressure/anxiety. It would take a desperate player to take drugs that could likely negatively affect their emotions.

Regarding anxiety, Greg Norman publicly stated years ago that during his prime players were using beta blockers. He referenced them being nervous wrecks on Saturday nights and calm and cool Sunday.

I personally think the big name players who are getting injured (Tiger and Rory) are from overtraining, not from prolonged HGH/steroid use. From what I've seen about Mcilroy's routine, it doesn't make sense, and seems to hurt his body more than any gains he's making.

So many of you believe everyone cheats. Not in professional sports. Steroids and HGH aren't the miracle drugs you might think. They may have added some feet to Barry Bonds' HR's, but sure didn't help him stay in the field. The jacked up dude could barely even run bases during the end of his career, same with McGuire. HGH and steroids just don't make sense for golf. It's a game of touch, a target sport.

Did Lance Armstrong looked "jacked" to you?  Why do you presume that "target and touch" are mutually exclusive of PED use?  

I am a big Rory fan, and like Scotty too but again I point to Occum's Razor......who on this planet withdraws from the chance at Olympic immortality without good reason?  (FYI Bahamas, Florida also have mosquitoes)

I don't think the Olympics is what's going to inspire most golfers..to not do PED's..Olympics kind of jumped the shark for a lot of people?..Not to change the subject..lol.

13

#74 lowheel

lowheel

    LOWHEEL

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,774 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 193008
  • Joined: 07/18/2012
GolfWRX Likes : 1457

Posted 09 October 2017 - 03:56 PM

I think its going to create sticky situations.i just got 2 cortisone/steroidal injections in my lower back and sciatic nerve and the doc knows im a pro golfer and basically told me if they test you you'll fail so i can give you a medical letter.i told him dont worry im in lower tours they dont care!!

14

#75 PowderedToastMan

PowderedToastMan

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,712 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 141617
  • Joined: 10/07/2011
  • Location:Calgary, Canada
GolfWRX Likes : 2544

Posted 09 October 2017 - 04:50 PM

View PostOutlier, on 09 October 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 08 October 2017 - 10:58 PM, said:

Having played professionally, it's much more likely a golfer would use benzodiazepines and/or ADHD medications. Pro golfers are obsessed with anything affecting their touch, and are always searching for ways to get in the zone and reduce pressure/anxiety. It would take a desperate player to take drugs that could likely negatively affect their emotions.

Regarding anxiety, Greg Norman publicly stated years ago that during his prime players were using beta blockers. He referenced them being nervous wrecks on Saturday nights and calm and cool Sunday.

I personally think the big name players who are getting injured (Tiger and Rory) are from overtraining, not from prolonged HGH/steroid use. From what I've seen about Mcilroy's routine, it doesn't make sense, and seems to hurt his body more than any gains he's making.

So many of you believe everyone cheats. Not in professional sports. Steroids and HGH aren't the miracle drugs you might think. They may have added some feet to Barry Bonds' HR's, but sure didn't help him stay in the field. The jacked up dude could barely even run bases during the end of his career, same with McGuire. HGH and steroids just don't make sense for golf. It's a game of touch, a target sport.

Did Lance Armstrong looked "jacked" to you?  Why do you presume that "target and touch" are mutually exclusive of PED use?  

I am a big Rory fan, and like Scotty too but again I point to Occum's Razor......who on this planet withdraws from the chance at Olympic immortality without good reason?  (FYI Bahamas, Florida also have mosquitoes)
The jacked part, referring to Bonds, was meant to imply that PED's didn't help him get back in the field. It only gave him power. Not for a second was I inferring that all people who use HGH/steroids get jacked. You missed the entire essence of my point, which was that PED's that were abused in cycling and baseball don't really provide a benefit in golf.

And yes, golfers are extremely hesitant to take anything that will affect their touch. I didn't mention any mutual exclusivity by the way. Golf isn't football. There's no Brett Favre's taking 7 percocet or whatever during a game. Golfers avoid such medications because it almost always negatively impedes their putting and touch around the green, which separates the winners from the losers in golf. Nick Faldo made sure he cut his fingernails on Mondays before a tournament, so he wouldn't impact his feel mid-tournament.

As for Rory, people seem to forget he was never a good putter in the first place. He'll start winning majors again when he catches fire with a putter during a major tournament week. That's always what has happened with Rory. You can't lose something you never had.

Former professional golfer. Current amateur human being. Reformed club ho.

In the bag:

PING G30 8.4 w/ Tour 65 Stiff 44.25"
PING G30 13.5 w/ TFC 419F X
PING G30 17.5 w/ Tour 80 X
PING G25 20 w/ TFC 189 X
PING S55 4-PW w/ KBS Tour X
PING Tour Gorge 52; Glide 58 TS w/ CFS X
Yes! Sandy 12 38"

15

#76 raynorfan1

raynorfan1

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,775 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119065
  • Joined: 12/17/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 678

Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:07 AM

For those who argue that "touch" is more important than steroidal strength in golf, ergo no problem with PEDs, keep in mind that archery is one of the "dirtiest" Olympic sports. Archery.

16

#77 DON SVO

DON SVO

    Hacker in progress...

  • Lefty Boomers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 679 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 99396
  • Joined: 11/29/2009
  • Location:Euless, Tey-Haws
GolfWRX Likes : 356

Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:59 AM

Too many people automatically think steroids/HGH = lean, ripped, more power, et. al.

A golfer would benefit from that group of PEDs because they would allow for longer runs of muscular endurance and quicker recovery.

Everyone here likes to talk about "golf is hard, they have to practice, so-and-so is slacking on practice time, that's probably why he's not doing XXXXX part of his game well, etc"... what if a doctor your buddy recommends you talk to simply says, "a low dose of XXX will let you literally put in twice the practice time during the week and your body will feel like it's only Friday morning's round when you're walking down the back 9 Sunday?"

At that level, lots of people would find that tempting. Those drugs exist and I would have to assume they get used.
A bag of left-handed junk

17

#78 Cool Hand Luke

Cool Hand Luke

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 321 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 439120
  • Joined: 08/31/2016
  • Location:AZ
  • Handicap:4
GolfWRX Likes : 207

Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:23 AM

It is true, HGH does not lead to increased muscle mass, rather it leads to fat loss. The main benefit is it speeds up recovery from injury and this is where I think the anti-doping bureaucracies need to listen to doctors as it is a viable treatment to help players get back on the field quicker following a major injury. Now if used for general 'performance enhancement' I can see why you would not want that, although I'm not convinced that professional golfers specifically would get any performance enhancement with regular use.

Anabolic steroids due lead to increased muscle mass and in arenas where this is advantageous it makes sense that they are used in conjunction with HGH as they have synergistic effects. However, I also find it hard to believe professional golfers are gaining any performance enhancement from these.
910 D3
i25 3W
913h
714 CB 3-P
sm6 52F, 58M
scotty del mar
proV1x

18

#79 raynorfan1

raynorfan1

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,775 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119065
  • Joined: 12/17/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 678

Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:41 AM

View Postlowheel, on 09 October 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

I think its going to create sticky situations.i just got 2 cortisone/steroidal injections in my lower back and sciatic nerve and the doc knows im a pro golfer and basically told me if they test you you'll fail so i can give you a medical letter.i told him dont worry im in lower tours they dont care!!

View PostCool Hand Luke, on 10 October 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

The main benefit is it speeds up recovery from injury and this is where I think the anti-doping bureaucracies need to listen to doctors as it is a viable treatment to help players get back on the field quicker following a major injury.

These examples show what a slippery slope PEDs (and corresponding TUEs) are.

Say you have a golf swing that is particularly violent on your back (or knees, or whatever) that enables you to drive the ball 40 yards farther. I could swing the same way as you, but I don't want to destroy my body doing so. No big deal, every three months, you go in for a cortisone shot to make it all better (or at least feel that way). Do we really believe that these drugs didn't enhance your performance? Without them, you'd be retired after your first major injury while I have a long career. With them, you're a better golfer than I am.

Likewise, the availability of HGH to speed "recovery" after injury might lead you to take greater risk on the field of play, knowing that you can come back from injury pretty quickly. Is that not a performance enhancer?

And then you get to the next derivation ... things like Tommy John surgery. Some guys throw harder after TJ than they did before. Some guys are proactively having it before they blow out their elbows. Is performance enhancing surgery legit?

It's a very messy sports ethics debate...which, by definition, cannot be solved here (or anywhere, really).

19

#80 Outlier

Outlier

    OUTLIER

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 968 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 105230
  • Joined: 03/23/2010
  • Location:Ice Cold in Charlotte, NC
  • Handicap:1906
GolfWRX Likes : 277

Posted 11 October 2017 - 07:58 AM

View PostCool Hand Luke, on 10 October 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

It is true, HGH does not lead to increased muscle mass, rather it leads to fat loss. The main benefit is it speeds up recovery from injury and this is where I think the anti-doping bureaucracies need to listen to doctors as it is a viable treatment to help players get back on the field quicker following a major injury. Now if used for general 'performance enhancement' I can see why you would not want that, although I'm not convinced that professional golfers specifically would get any performance enhancement with regular use.

Anabolic steroids due lead to increased muscle mass and in arenas where this is advantageous it makes sense that they are used in conjunction with HGH as they have synergistic effects. However, I also find it hard to believe professional golfers are gaining any performance enhancement from these.

It is strange to me everybody shouted "look at how Barry Bonds body changed....it is soooo obvious...."  but now we have lifelong "chubby" faced kids getting older and almost unrecognizable they are so ripped/lean who also conveniently avoid WADA blood tests- No! "they would never do that"......

By the way, morally I don't care what they put in their bodies, as I believe it is a zero sum gain proposition (so many do it).   I am more bothered by the underlying double standards that seem to be at play.  It was always super obvious Roger Clemmons was on the same type of stuff Barry was on.....nobody said a word until he was summarily outed.

When this all comes out in the wash, (and I believe it will), are we gonna refer to the "steroid era" of golf?  I don't think so..... but wouldn't be shocked.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#81 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,901 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:1.7
GolfWRX Likes : 4760

Posted 11 October 2017 - 10:18 AM

View PostOutlier, on 11 October 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:


It is strange to me everybody shouted "look at how Barry Bonds body changed....it is soooo obvious...."  but now we have lifelong "chubby" faced kids getting older and almost unrecognizable they are so ripped/lean who also conveniently avoid WADA blood tests- No! "they would never do that"......

By the way, morally I don't care what they put in their bodies, as I believe it is a zero sum gain proposition (so many do it).   I am more bothered by the underlying double standards that seem to be at play.  It was always super obvious Roger Clemmons was on the same type of stuff Barry was on.....nobody said a word until he was summarily outed.

When this all comes out in the wash, (and I believe it will), are we gonna refer to the "steroid era" of golf?  I don't think so..... but wouldn't be shocked.
What are they using then in your opinion? You stated over 90% of pros are cheating. If not steroids/HGH what are they using?  Is every chubby kid athlete gets in good shape-Rory is far from ripped-in your opinion that means you can tell they are cheating?  Are all chubby kids doomed to a lifetime of chubbiness? They cannot embrace a healthier lifestyle without being branded as cheaters on the internet?

Attached Thumbnails

  • rory fit.jpg

TM M1 8.5*  Tensei Pro White 50TX
TM M1 3w 14*  Kuro Kage 70X
Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-PW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Cleveland  RTX CB 50* 54* 58* Nippon 125 wedge
Toulon Garage Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

21

#82 kcsf

kcsf

    Advanced

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 427 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 357935
  • Joined: 01/14/2015
  • Location:Santa Fe, NM
  • Handicap:6.8
GolfWRX Likes : 282

Posted 11 October 2017 - 10:31 AM

View PostTitleist 670, on 04 October 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

View PostZ1ggy16, on 04 October 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

There's so much more to PED's than HGH and anabolics. The mere fact that a pro athlete could even recover say... 10% faster rate than his peer who isn't on any type of drug is a massive advantage over the long haul, or even the short haul when just 1 stroke matters. I can't imagine hitting 600+ balls a week, walking over 15 miles a week and not having my shoulders and back be completely wrecked. Any kind of enhancement or substance that might make me recover from my athletic activity quicker than a competitor shouldn't be allowed, and it should be tested for.

I think this is a step in the right direction to ensure 100% (or as close as possible to) fair play.

I don't understand people who think pro golf requires you to be in superhuman shape.  It just doesn't.

There are grossly overweight golfers and guys who smoke who do it just fine.

I think you're missing the point here, and the point being increased strength and decreased recovery times are the result of taking performance enhancing drugs. This is true in football/baseball/swimming/golf and any sport. Any competitive athlete looking for an edge, mental or physical, could benefit from taking PED's. We wouldn't be talking about it, and they wouldn't be banned if not so.

Your "overweight" comment makes no sense at all. Who's to say the "overweight" guys on tour haven't taken PED's? Physical stature isn't a red herring for use/non use.

Now the flip side is the potential increase in stress the muscular strength can add to your joints and injuries resulting from this stress. Each person that consumes PED's has done the math for themselves, I hope.

Recreational drugs are a whole other topic...
M2 10.5* Hzrdus Yellow 6.0
Taylormade M2 Tour HL 3w Hzrdus Red 6.0
Srixon u45 18* and 23*
Srixon z745 irons
Edel 50* & 56* wedges
TP Mills Nellie; O-Works #7s red

22

#83 the bishop

the bishop

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,344 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 439390
  • Joined: 09/03/2016
  • Location:Richmond, TX
  • Handicap:6.5
GolfWRX Likes : 1188

Posted 11 October 2017 - 10:36 AM

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

View PostOutlier, on 11 October 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

It is strange to me everybody shouted "look at how Barry Bonds body changed....it is soooo obvious...."  but now we have lifelong "chubby" faced kids getting older and almost unrecognizable they are so ripped/lean who also conveniently avoid WADA blood tests- No! "they would never do that"......

By the way, morally I don't care what they put in their bodies, as I believe it is a zero sum gain proposition (so many do it).   I am more bothered by the underlying double standards that seem to be at play.  It was always super obvious Roger Clemmons was on the same type of stuff Barry was on.....nobody said a word until he was summarily outed.

When this all comes out in the wash, (and I believe it will), are we gonna refer to the "steroid era" of golf?  I don't think so..... but wouldn't be shocked.
What are they using then in your opinion? You stated over 90% of pros are cheating. If not steroids/HGH what are they using?  Is every chubby kid athlete gets in good shape-Rory is far from ripped-in your opinion that means you can tell they are cheating?  Are all chubby kids doomed to a lifetime of chubbiness? They cannot embrace a healthier lifestyle without being branded as cheaters on the internet?
uh-oh.  Rory must have about a dozen mistresses if he's doing Men's Health articles.
Bombtech Grenade 10.5* - S
W/S FG Tour F5 15* Fubuki z65 - S
W/S D100 19*/22* Matrix Ozik Altus - S
W/S FG Tour V6 5-P DG AMT S300
W/S FG Tour PMP 52/56/60 KBS Hi Rev 2.0
Scotty 5W

23

#84 raynorfan1

raynorfan1

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,775 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119065
  • Joined: 12/17/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 678

Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:30 AM

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

What are they using then in your opinion? You stated over 90% of pros are cheating. If not steroids/HGH what are they using?

I'll take a shot at this. From the WADA List ("International Prohibited Substance List 2017"), I think golfers are using:

Testosterone;
Any or all of the "Narcotics" family: heroin, oxycodone, hydromorphone, etc;
Cannabinoids (there is, in fact, an entire thread on this board discussing how commonplace it is on Tour);
Beta-blockers;
Human Growth Hormone.

24

#85 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,901 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:1.7
GolfWRX Likes : 4760

Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:45 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 11 October 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

What are they using then in your opinion? You stated over 90% of pros are cheating. If not steroids/HGH what are they using?

I'll take a shot at this. From the WADA List ("International Prohibited Substance List 2017"), I think golfers are using:

Testosterone;
Any or all of the "Narcotics" family: heroin, oxycodone, hydromorphone, etc;
Cannabinoids (there is, in fact, an entire thread on this board discussing how commonplace it is on Tour);
Beta-blockers;
Human Growth Hormone.
In previous posts both you and Outlier are saying 90% + cheat using ped's.    Half of the above listings you have are not-imo at least-ped's but they are against the wada rules. Do you define ALL substances against the wada rules as being a ped? Is that your logic? Cannabis? Narcotics?

TM M1 8.5*  Tensei Pro White 50TX
TM M1 3w 14*  Kuro Kage 70X
Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-PW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Cleveland  RTX CB 50* 54* 58* Nippon 125 wedge
Toulon Garage Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

25

#86 raynorfan1

raynorfan1

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,775 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119065
  • Joined: 12/17/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 678

Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:01 PM

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Do you define ALL substances against the wada rules as being a ped? Is that your logic? Cannabis? Narcotics?

Yes. That is the definition and purpose of WADA.

It's not up to me or you to decide what is performance enhancing, that's WADA's job. They write the rules.

If you want to reframe the discussion to something different, say, "are 90%+ of PGA golfers using anabolic steroids?" then I would agree with you, probably unlikely. But there is an internationally agreed prohibited substances list - if we're talking about drugs in sport, that's the definitive list to work off of.

Your "IMO" is actually not relevant (and neither is mine).

Edited by raynorfan1, 11 October 2017 - 12:35 PM.


26

#87 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,901 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:1.7
GolfWRX Likes : 4760

Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:54 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 11 October 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Do you define ALL substances against the wada rules as being a ped? Is that your logic? Cannabis? Narcotics?

Yes. That is the definition and purpose of WADA.

It's not up to me or you to decide what is performance enhancing, that's WADA's job. They write the rules.

If you want to reframe the discussion to something different, say, "are 90%+ of PGA golfers using anabolic steroids?" then I would agree with you, probably unlikely. But there is an internationally agreed prohibited substances list - if we're talking about drugs in sport, that's the definitive list to work off of.

Your "IMO" is actually not relevant (and neither is mine).
Got ya. Earlier posts implied cheating with benefits.   Cannabis is no more of a benefit than alcohol. So imo that is not a ped but it is a rules violation.  To the best of my knowledge all known ped's are against the rules but not all banned substances are ped's.
  Now we both understand why I said way under your and Outlier's 90% and you guys were where you were.
TM M1 8.5*  Tensei Pro White 50TX
TM M1 3w 14*  Kuro Kage 70X
Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-PW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Cleveland  RTX CB 50* 54* 58* Nippon 125 wedge
Toulon Garage Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

27

#88 raynorfan1

raynorfan1

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,775 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119065
  • Joined: 12/17/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 678

Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:03 PM

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 11 October 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Do you define ALL substances against the wada rules as being a ped? Is that your logic? Cannabis? Narcotics?

Yes. That is the definition and purpose of WADA.

It's not up to me or you to decide what is performance enhancing, that's WADA's job. They write the rules.

If you want to reframe the discussion to something different, say, "are 90%+ of PGA golfers using anabolic steroids?" then I would agree with you, probably unlikely. But there is an internationally agreed prohibited substances list - if we're talking about drugs in sport, that's the definitive list to work off of.

Your "IMO" is actually not relevant (and neither is mine).
Got ya. Earlier posts implied cheating with benefits.   Cannabis is no more of a benefit than alcohol. So imo that is not a ped but it is a rules violation.  To the best of my knowledge all known ped's are against the rules but not all banned substances are ped's.
  Now we both understand why I said way under your and Outlier's 90% and you guys were where you were.

WADA actually does consider cannabis to meet the threshold for performance enhancement.

28

#89 Outlier

Outlier

    OUTLIER

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 968 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 105230
  • Joined: 03/23/2010
  • Location:Ice Cold in Charlotte, NC
  • Handicap:1906
GolfWRX Likes : 277

Posted 11 October 2017 - 09:21 PM

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 11 October 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Do you define ALL substances against the wada rules as being a ped? Is that your logic? Cannabis? Narcotics?

Yes. That is the definition and purpose of WADA.

It's not up to me or you to decide what is performance enhancing, that's WADA's job. They write the rules.

If you want to reframe the discussion to something different, say, "are 90%+ of PGA golfers using anabolic steroids?" then I would agree with you, probably unlikely. But there is an internationally agreed prohibited substances list - if we're talking about drugs in sport, that's the definitive list to work off of.

Your "IMO" is actually not relevant (and neither is mine).
Got ya. Earlier posts implied cheating with benefits.   Cannabis is no more of a benefit than alcohol. So imo that is not a ped but it is a rules violation.  To the best of my knowledge all known ped's are against the rules but not all banned substances are ped's.
  Now we both understand why I said way under your and Outlier's 90% and you guys were where you were.

HGH isn't gonna be detected (unless by dumb lottery type luck or stupidity) without the WADA or similar blood sample protocal.  Believe what you want, I believe HGH has been standard operating procedure among this cohort as he risk of getting caught without blood samples was minuscule.  

It is a fact, until viles of blood are drawn, tested AND STORED for future analysis, no serious testing regime for HGH has been in place.  It is also a fact that several high profile players who had previously expressed varying levels of excitement suddenly pulled out of the Olympics.  Patriotism be damned, rather than muddle through the convoluted explanations for the change of heart, Occum's Razor does it for me:

Your results may vary.

29

#90 Sixcat

Sixcat

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,118 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 23189
  • Joined: 12/28/2006
GolfWRX Likes : 747

Posted 12 October 2017 - 06:10 AM

View PostOutlier, on 11 October 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 11 October 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Do you define ALL substances against the wada rules as being a ped? Is that your logic? Cannabis? Narcotics?

Yes. That is the definition and purpose of WADA.

It's not up to me or you to decide what is performance enhancing, that's WADA's job. They write the rules.

If you want to reframe the discussion to something different, say, "are 90%+ of PGA golfers using anabolic steroids?" then I would agree with you, probably unlikely. But there is an internationally agreed prohibited substances list - if we're talking about drugs in sport, that's the definitive list to work off of.

Your "IMO" is actually not relevant (and neither is mine).
Got ya. Earlier posts implied cheating with benefits.   Cannabis is no more of a benefit than alcohol. So imo that is not a ped but it is a rules violation.  To the best of my knowledge all known ped's are against the rules but not all banned substances are ped's.
  Now we both understand why I said way under your and Outlier's 90% and you guys were where you were.

HGH isn't gonna be detected (unless by dumb lottery type luck or stupidity) without the WADA or similar blood sample protocal.  Believe what you want, I believe HGH has been standard operating procedure among this cohort as he risk of getting caught without blood samples was minuscule.  

It is a fact, until viles of blood are drawn, tested AND STORED for future analysis, no serious testing regime for HGH has been in place.  It is also a fact that several high profile players who had previously expressed varying levels of excitement suddenly pulled out of the Olympics.  Patriotism be damned, rather than muddle through the convoluted explanations for the change of heart, Occum's Razor does it for me:

Your results may vary.

It's no guarantee HGH would be detected even using the WADA protocol.  Again, I would recommend watching "Icarus" on Netflix to see just how simple the WADA protocol is to beat!

I agree, this is standard operating procedure.  Not just in all forms of athletics but Hollywood and beyond as well.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

30



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors