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Would you play a short course with a shorter flight ball


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#1 disco111

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 09:39 AM

This is driven by another thread about the decline of golf. I remember Jack Nicklaus some years back, addressing this subject. Courses could be half the size, thus reducing overall costs.and play wise with the restricted flight ball, your 300 yd drive might only be 180-190, but if you can adjust to the mindset, it could be good for the general majority playing the game and keeping more players in the game.....................Thoughts!


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#2 caniac6

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 09:44 AM

No. I am getting older, and not hitting the ball as far. I'd play a shorter course with the ball I currently play. Time catches up with everyone. I don't see very many young guys playing. If you take distance away from older guys, the decline of golf will only increase.

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#3 North Butte

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 09:45 AM

No appeal whatsoever. It's like asking a tennis player wouldn't he really rather be playing Badminton.
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#4 VNutz

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 09:57 AM

No. Not because I don't want to play something shorter or limited with the flight, but because I'd have no idea how to play some of the shots. I know how to play my game at certain distances, I don't want to reset that or have to guess at how far I'm hitting it just to play a different setup. Just like how I get frustrated playing courses at high elevation like in Colorado. It's still a fun game, but without the ability to control what I'm doing it's less enjoyable.

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#5 CMCSGolf

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 10:08 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 04 October 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

No appeal whatsoever. It's like asking a tennis player wouldn't he really rather be playing Badminton.

I believe tennis balls are different for each of the grand slam events because of the different surfaces.  Not as extreme as badminton, but tennis actually does change the ball for different events and the players adjust fine.

I would only do this if it were more a permanent change.  If it were just one course that played a short ball, it would be impossible to adjust.  But if I was going to switch to an 80-90% ball and play from 6,000 every round, I would do it.  Assuming chip and pitch shots are played the same way, it would take a bout 3 rounds to adjust and figure out new yardages.

I would be a fan of golf courses maxing out around 6,300 yards and everyone under a 3 -5 handicap playing a restricted ball.  Similar to transitioning to wooden bats as you get to the pros in baseball.  For all average golfers, there is no need to take distance away and 6,300 is plenty of distance to keep the game fun and challenging.


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#6 farmer

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 11:35 AM

It's an idea that's been around for a long time.  Nicklaus proposed it for use where there was limited space, aka the Cayman ball.  As I recall, there were performance issues with the restricted balls, and it turned out that resort players still wanted a full sized course.

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#7 NJpatbee

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 11:44 AM

No.  I started at age 40 and am now 65 and I never belonged on the tips. If I tag my drive I get about 220 carry and roll - 140 instead would be a let down.  I am fine with the current limitations regarding conforming golf balls and equipment and as long as they stay at the current levels I see no problem.

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#8 596

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 11:48 AM

Yes.  They have a Nicklaus designed course on Grand Cayman Island.  He designed the limited flight ball for this course since there is a limited amount of land.  The ball has dimples that go out instead of in and is also lighter.  A good drive goes about 140 yards.  An on the screws pitching wedge is 30 yards.  Other then the limited flight you really could not tell the ball was any different.  It putted the same also even with the dimples facing out. It was a lot of fun playing that course.  I still have 2 of the balls around home somewhere.

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#9 596

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 11:52 AM

This is the ball from the course on Grand Cayman

Posted Image

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#10 raynorfan1

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 12:11 PM

View PostCMCSGolf, on 04 October 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

I believe tennis balls are different for each of the grand slam events because of the different surfaces.  Not as extreme as badminton, but tennis actually does change the ball for different events and the players adjust fine.

Tennis balls are all theoretically the same, just like golf balls, but there are brand-to-brand differences and different tournaments use different brands. It would be like the US Open using ProV1's and the PGA Championship using only Chromesofts. The players can tell the difference between the two, but the choice has more to do with sponsorship dollars than engineering. Men and women do play with slightly different models, however.

To the original question, no I would not. But what if you showed up at a club to be told that you had to use their in-house balls (90%). Nobody tells you that they're restricted flight, and all of the yardage markers and info from caddies are inflated by 11%. Could you tell the difference?


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#11 North Butte

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 12:17 PM

I would most certainly know if someone stuck with me a limited-flight ball. Might not notice for a few holes as I'd probably blame my swing but yeah, I'd notice. And in any case, sprinkler heads (or caddies) might as well not exist since I trust my laser for distances.

So short answer, of course I'd notice.

P.S. If you're talking about caddies you're describing a different world than 99% of golfers live in. I've no idea as to the preferences of 1%-ers or what they would or would not notice.
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#12 larrybud

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 12:25 PM

No, since the ball hasn't gone "farther" in 15 years.

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#13 kozubs

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 12:50 PM

I dunno,  I think it could be a lot fun but I'd want to have it set up extremely difficult which may negate the whole "resort course thing".  No reason to not have multi tiered greens and a crazy amount of hazards to make sure that you have to plot your way around be strategic.  

I'm also a believer that shorter courses can be made more relevant by this theory.  Grow the rough, narrow up the fairways from 250-320 yards and place some strategic trees, bunkers or wet areas. I love risk reward and even love holes that you can be blocked out on from the fairway simply because you hit it too far or the wrong side of the fairway.

Here's an example.  #15 at my home course is only 336 yards with bunkers in front and steep drop offs behind and to the left side of the green.  About 210 yards out is a valley that's about 15 feet deep with a very large Maple that blocks out about 2/3rds of the fairway.  To hit a drive that can clear the tree, to get on the upper side of the valley you need a straight drive that lands in about a 10 yard wide area that carries about 270.  A slight fade can also bend around the tree which is a big mature maple that is about 60 feet high.  If you pull it off, You're rewarded with a 20 to 30 yard pitch in, or a green side bunker shot for a great birdie opportunity.  If you're even slightly left or right, you will be pitching out of 3-4 inch rough over bunkers to a very firm green.  Alternative you can hit a shot that only flys anywhere between 190 to 230.  Any shot in this range will end up in the bottom of the valley leaving a 90 yard pitch to a green you cant see.  Just land it short of the tree and let it roll down.  Still a birdie chance but much safer.  I love this hole, but if that tree ever dies, it'll ruin the hole.  That said, many golfers at our course want to take a chainsaw to the tree.  

It's nothing special, just a well placed tree that adds a lot of risk to an otherwise easy hole.  

BTW, rarely do I see anyone not pull driver here.  Usually they hit a bad drive into the left or right trees or bounce it off the Maple getting lucky about 50% of the time.  The only time I go for it is during a bad round where I don't care or if I'm drive it very well.

Sorry, couldn't get the screen shot to work so here's a youtube video

https://www.youtube....h?v=oTJtURKX3_g

Edited by kozubs, 04 October 2017 - 12:58 PM.


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#14 raynorfan1

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 12:54 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 04 October 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

I would most certainly know if someone stuck with me a limited-flight ball. Might not notice for a few holes as I'd probably blame my swing but yeah, I'd notice. And in any case, sprinkler heads (or caddies) might as well not exist since I trust my laser for distances.

So short answer, of course I'd notice.

P.S. If you're talking about caddies you're describing a different world than 99% of golfers live in. I've no idea as to the preferences of 1%-ers or what they would or would not notice.

Assume all the information you have available to you about distance (including the lasers) is overstating everything by 11%. Would you know? Keep in mind that you would have the positive affirmation of your laser/GPS in your head.

I don't think I could discern an 11% difference. If I stood on a sprinkler head that said "100" and it was actually 90 yards, I don't think I'd notice.

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#15 larrybud

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 02:48 PM

Really?  My wife hasn't been playing long and she's already pretty good at estimating distances within 11% with her eye.


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#16 CMCSGolf

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 02:55 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 04 October 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

View PostCMCSGolf, on 04 October 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

I believe tennis balls are different for each of the grand slam events because of the different surfaces.  Not as extreme as badminton, but tennis actually does change the ball for different events and the players adjust fine.

Tennis balls are all theoretically the same, just like golf balls, but there are brand-to-brand differences and different tournaments use different brands. It would be like the US Open using ProV1's and the PGA Championship using only Chromesofts. The players can tell the difference between the two, but the choice has more to do with sponsorship dollars than engineering. Men and women do play with slightly different models, however.

To the original question, no I would not. But what if you showed up at a club to be told that you had to use their in-house balls (90%). Nobody tells you that they're restricted flight, and all of the yardage markers and info from caddies are inflated by 11%. Could you tell the difference?

Interesting.  I did not know the ball difference was so subtle in Tennis.

I just don't think it would be a big deal to switch to a shorter ball.  Pros were able to adjust at the International in Colorado in a few practice rounds.  When the British Open was played with a different sized ball, guys figured it out very quickly.  If I had to switch tomorrow, I really don't think it would change my enjoyment much.

As a few people have said, there is no point to switching if you hit it 220.  This would affect less than 10% of players and good players would adapt fine. Hitting it "long" is all relative anyways.  If a massive drive goes 300 yards instead of 330 is anybody really less impressed?  The longest drivers would still be the longest, but we would have a different reference point.

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#17 hybrid25

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 03:00 PM

View Postlarrybud, on 04 October 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

No, since the ball hasn't gone "farther" in 15 years.
Wait a minute, all the golf ball manufacturers claim that their ball is longer than ever before???

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#18 Conrad1953

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 05:34 PM

No interest in going back. I'm all for making the ball go even further.I want to
hit 500 yard drives and drive par 5s in one.
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#19 RRFireblade

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 05:36 PM

Sure.
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#20 RRFireblade

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 05:38 PM

Tennis balls are fairly different between brands and intended use/surface. Btw. IMO.

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#21 raynorfan1

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 08:15 PM

View PostRRFireblade, on 04 October 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

Tennis balls are fairly different between brands and intended use/surface. Btw. IMO.

No moreso (IMHO) than golf balls.

There is some variability in felt density (regular vs extra duty); and the Babolat Roland Garros is a bit different than others - but this really serves to somewhat homogenize the French with the other majors.

Wilson sells a "grass court" ball, but it's identical to the regular extra-duty US Open ball, except that it's available in white.

The difference between all of these is like comparing a ProV1 to a ProV1X to a Chromesoft.

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#22 RRFireblade

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 09:03 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 04 October 2017 - 08:15 PM, said:

View PostRRFireblade, on 04 October 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

Tennis balls are fairly different between brands and intended use/surface. Btw. IMO.

No moreso (IMHO) than golf balls.

There is some variability in felt density (regular vs extra duty); and the Babolat Roland Garros is a bit different than others - but this really serves to somewhat homogenize the French with the other majors.

Wilson sells a "grass court" ball, but it's identical to the regular extra-duty US Open ball, except that it's available in white.

The difference between all of these is like comparing a ProV1 to a ProV1X to a Chromesoft.

It might depend a little bit on how much one plays. I can tell the difference between Penn, Dunlop and Wilson all day long, eyes closed from the first stroke.

Heavy duty versus regular, or clay balls are very noticeable as well. Hell on clay, the balls change noticeably after just a set or two.

No way could I give you a brand with my eyes closed hitting a golf ball. Lol.
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#23 Santiago Golf

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 09:06 PM

No. I will stop playing tournaments if they change the ball and stop watching golf on tv if they change the ball.
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#24 CMCSGolf

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 09:30 PM

View PostSantiago Golf, on 04 October 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

No. I will stop playing tournaments if they change the ball and stop watching golf on tv if they change the ball.

Can you explain why?  How is the game different or less fun if your 7 iron goes 150 instead of 165?  I don't say this to be argumentative, but I don't understand how the game is substantially different with a slightly shorter ball.  If everyone in the tournament is playing the same ball, then the relative difference in players will be maintained and it will be the same course with slightly less distance.

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#25 Handfull

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 10:50 PM

If I can't passively brag about how far I hit the golf ball on golfwrx, what's the point of even playing golf?  Good short game won't prove I'm more of a man then the rest of you.

But seriously, ill play anything a long as its still golf.  Once you figure out your distances it shouldn't be as big a deal as some are making it out to be.

Edited by Handfull, 18 October 2017 - 08:30 PM.


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#26 raynorfan1

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 07:16 AM

View PostRRFireblade, on 04 October 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

It might depend a little bit on how much one plays. I can tell the difference between Penn, Dunlop and Wilson all day long, eyes closed from the first stroke.

Heavy duty versus regular, or clay balls are very noticeable as well. Hell on clay, the balls change noticeably after just a set or two.

No way could I give you a brand with my eyes closed hitting a golf ball. Lol.

Absolutely depends how much one plays. Sounds like you need to play more golf.

I play both almost every day. It's easy to discern the difference among balls in both sports. Some differences are dramatic - the Wilson US Open to Babolat ball is like the difference between a ProV1 and a Top Flite. Some are more subtle. But if you play a lot, you can tell almost instantly.

My point is not that tennis balls are uniform - they're not - it's that the majors don't have balls specifically tuned for their surface/event. They're just playing whatever ball had a manufacturer pay for the sponsorship.

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#27 CaseyC

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 07:51 AM

View Post596, on 04 October 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

This is the ball from the course on Grand Cayman...



The Britannia course on Grand Cayman has been closed for a couple of years now and they stopped using the "Cayman Ball" in the '90s

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#28 North Butte

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 08:03 AM

View PostCMCSGolf, on 04 October 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

View PostSantiago Golf, on 04 October 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

No. I will stop playing tournaments if they change the ball and stop watching golf on tv if they change the ball.

Can you explain why?  How is the game different or less fun if your 7 iron goes 150 instead of 165?  I don't say this to be argumentative, but I don't understand how the game is substantially different with a slightly shorter ball.  If everyone in the tournament is playing the same ball, then the relative difference in players will be maintained and it will be the same course with slightly less distance.

I like hitting a 220 yard drive much more than hitting a 200 yard one. If some silly one-off golf ball caused me to hit it 180 that would be less fun, yes.

The most elemental pleasure of golf, the thing that makes it so addictive for most people is seeing a ball fly from over here to waaaaaaay over there and end up near where you are aiming.

There are already pitch and putt, par 3 and "executive" length courses where you can bunt the ball around to your heart's content. Have you noticed that such courses very rarely do 1/10 as much business as the nearby full sized golf courses? That's not just bad luck, it's a product that very few people want to buy.

Why does the ball go as far as it does instead of 10% shorter or 10% longer? Because that's what the Rules of Golf say. It's totally arbitrary. Why is the putting cup 4-1/2" instead of 3-1/2" or 5-1/2"? Same thing, purely arbitrary. But if someone opened a course with 3-1/2" cups, golfers would not exactly flock to it so they could 3-putt and 4-putt ten times a round would they?

Any of the dozens of arbitrary rules of golf could be slightly different and it wouldn't matter. But once they are set, good luck convincing anyone other than a few Internet cranks and grumpy retired tour pros that the game would be just as fun if those arbitrary rules changed so they can't hit the ball as far. Not one golfer in 10,000 looks at his ball flying through the air and thinks, "Man this would be a lot more fun if that ball didn't go so far". I mean serious, you lot must be joking, right?
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#29 CMCSGolf

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 12:19 PM

I'm not joking at all.  I agree that once golf made some arbitrary choices on rules, the status quo would be a factor since people hate change.  But I still think they would adjust in a summer and not care much.  Different sized golf balls were played a few decades ago and when we switched to a standard ball, play did not stop.  This suggests a slight change in yardage does not make a difference.  And this change should not apply to 90% of golfers anyways.

The idea that losing 10% of your yardage being a significant factor still baffles me.  The trajectory of the shot would be the same, the feel would be the same, but the ball would go slightly shorter.  Most people don't have good enough eye sight to accurately identify if a ball flew 220 vs 200, so I'm not sure how that can significantly impact pleasure.  Is it more fun to hit a 5 iron than a 6 iron?  Is it more fun to play when it's hot and the ball goes an extra 10 yards? Is it more fun to play at elevation?  The answer for me is no to all of these, so I'm not sure how taking 10% off the ball flight changes the games enjoyment.  

I think the debate on overcoming the current set up is complicated and gets into a lot of psychology.  I'm more interested in understanding why a ball flying 220 is more fun than flying 200?  Can you explain what it is about the extra 20 yards that makes the game better?  If it's significantly better, why don't you buy some of the juiced balls that go even further?  These are honest questions I am curious to hear answers to since anyone can play any ball they want and it doesn't effect how I enjoy the game.  I'm interested in understanding the other side.

Edited by CMCSGolf, 05 October 2017 - 12:45 PM.


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#30 RRFireblade

RRFireblade

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 12:44 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 05 October 2017 - 07:16 AM, said:

View PostRRFireblade, on 04 October 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

It might depend a little bit on how much one plays. I can tell the difference between Penn, Dunlop and Wilson all day long, eyes closed from the first stroke.

Heavy duty versus regular, or clay balls are very noticeable as well. Hell on clay, the balls change noticeably after just a set or two.

No way could I give you a brand with my eyes closed hitting a golf ball. Lol.

Absolutely depends how much one plays. Sounds like you need to play more golf.

I play both almost every day. It's easy to discern the difference among balls in both sports. Some differences are dramatic - the Wilson US Open to Babolat ball is like the difference between a ProV1 and a Top Flite. Some are more subtle. But if you play a lot, you can tell almost instantly.

My point is not that tennis balls are uniform - they're not - it's that the majors don't have balls specifically tuned for their surface/event. They're just playing whatever ball had a manufacturer pay for the sponsorship.

Well your point seems to change a little bit, LOL. Because they absolutely do use different tennis balls for different tournaments and particularly for different surfaces... Which was my point. LOL.

In regards to golf, I will concede that I must not be at the Mastery level that you are apparently :-), but anytime you want to hit a dozen different golf balls in a blind test and name the brand of each, I'll put up 10 grand to yours for as many swings as you want to take, anytime you are up for it.

:-)  

I'm totally completely serious about that. BTW. LOL

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