getitdaily, on 13 October 2017 - 05:30 AM, said:
Noodler, on 12 October 2017 - 10:28 PM, said:
I was only trying to help golfers understand the true nature of swingweight. I was not trying to tell anyone (or the manufacturers) that everyone should switch to using MOI. Sorry if that was misunderstood. My point simply was that swingweight is not comparable between different sets of clubs; that D2 means nothing when it comes to the actual swing heft felt by a golfer. That two clubs can both be D2 and feel nothing like each other, yet golfers will continually reference their preferred swingweights as if there is something meaningful in that preference. It's just total and absolute fallacy. Sorry for trying to help. You all can just go back to living in denial.
But understand how important understanding this fact is when buying your own clubs or going through a fitting. You would come in as a much more educated consumer. You would understand that just because the two clubs you're testing, both at a reported D2 swingweight, could have very different actual swing heft and have completely different balance ratios between their components. You could stop blaming poor performance on a particular club head if any of that club's components was different from that other club with the head that you "love". There are so many variables involved when testing clubs that it's important to recognize whether the testing you're involved in is being performed with some kind of scientific basis or just completely based on trial and error and the fallacy of swingweights.
You've just really come off as condescending in this thread. Swingweight has been the standard for a very long time. Whether moi is a bettwr gauge or not is beyond me, but if you're trying to influence folks into believing it is then you could sing a different tune rather than talk down to anyone who dares to disagree.
So, help me understand what moi will do for performance...not of my clubs or me, but my scores, ball striking, gir, proximity, etc. What data do you have, by handicap, age, etc, that shows moi is worth the effort?
Lorry Adams is the man behind the mechanical instrument we call Swing Weight Scale, the original name was "Lorry Scale" (first name of the inventor).
They new about MOI or moment of inertia back then too, and the SW scale was meant to be a "mechanical short cut" to MOI, because the math behind was way to complicated before the microprocessor saw the day of light.
The SW scale was tested using many different fulcrums, both 12 and 16 inch was tested, but they found the 14" inch to be the one who seems to do the job best. But....the instrument was NOT precise, and it was never meant to be used across a hole bag, it was made to mach clubs of groups, (irons, ,woods,) and the options of shafts back then was not even close to what we got today, so different balance point of shafts was hardly a issue.
Today we do have microprocessors, and there is a "play ready" Digital MOI match scale on the marked, and there is no doubt that this instrument does the job way better, but that does not mean that the SW scale is useless, we just need to know how it really works and what limitations that instrument have.
After the digital MOI machines came to the marked in 2003, advanced club makers has "logged" their builds using both the digital scale and the SW scale so we can actually SE the errors the SW scale makes, AND make charts for how to adjust / eliminate those errors.
Its play length who fools the SW scale when we compare clubs (so can grip weight do), the SW scale has no clue about how long the actual club is, so while we has been fooled to believe that a set of irons should have the same SW value (all D2 or D3) to get the same feel of resistance and head weight, compares against the digital MOI scale has shown us that the SW value must be progressive "on the paper", to be flat real life.
For classic sets with a play length difference of 0.5" or 4/8" between clubs, SW value progression must be 2/3 or 0.66 SW point plus for each club shorter. Since most places still uses a #6 iron as fitting iron, a correct build set based on a #6 iron with the standard value D2 should have looked like this
PW- D4 1/3 (when played 0.25 shorter than the "9 iron)
#9 - D4
#8 - D3 1/3
#7 - D2 2/3
#6 - D2
#5 - D1 1/3
#4 - D0 2/3
#3 - D0
NOW all clubs in the set will feel like the #6 iron of D2, and thats what Noodler is referring too.
Players who thing "all their clubs" should be D4 (both irons and driver), would most likely have been better off if they did not know anything about SW, because they got it all wrong, and will never be able to make any club to really perform as it should.
SW values alone is useless unless we are in a position where we are duplicating specs of one club to another, and many forget that SW values does not matter much if play length and or total weight is off. SW is only a part of a hole, its not a parameter who needs attention unless we have the others right first, the any player will notice that even small differences to SW DOES make a difference.
We see the same during shaft fitting. If the player really should play a 115 gram shaft, we cant make it right for him using 130 grams or 100 grams and think we can just fine tune head weight up or down and be home free, it does not work like that, and some players will even have a hard time telling if the 100 gram shafted club has the highest or lightest total weight (balance point of the shaft can sometimes fool us bad).
When this player gets a 115 gram shaft, he will notice 1 gram up or down in head weight, he will not be able to detect that gram when total weight is off in the first place, then it all feel "off" but often in a way we cant really express. The closer to "ideal" we gets, the more sensitive we become.
If we now go back to the list of irons with progressive SW value, we get to see that a #3 iron matching a #6 iron of D2 gives a #3 iron of D0
2 SW points is 4 grams head weight, and thats WAY over and beyond what any player will notice when play length and total weight is right,
......so the SW scale is still good, we just have to understand how to use it right, if not we have no clue about what we are dealing with.
Its common knowledge that only "better players" is able to play their 4 and 3 iron, and the SW scale is partly the problem.
Instead of a set where all clubs has the same actual resistance, we get a set where resistance goes up the longer the club is.
At one level, often at the #5 iron, club speed progression stops, the club simply has to much resistance, so the player cant take advantage of a club 0.5" longer, it does not provide the needed extra club speed of about 2 mph pr club.
When clubs are MOI matched, most players will be able to play one club longer, some even both the 3 and 4 iron they could not play before because they made to many bad shots with them.
Same Actual Resiatance means the same swing and effort on all clubs, it was the purpose of the SW scale, but it could never do the job right before now that we know its errors.
Edited by Howard Jones, 15 October 2017 - 03:15 AM.