Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

How much does Swing weight even matter?


56 replies to this topic

#31 Carvallo Golf

Carvallo Golf

    "Just gonna send it" - L.E.

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 181 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 474344
  • Joined: 07/09/2017
  • Location:Southern Ontario Canada
  • Handicap:MMJ
GolfWRX Likes : 71

Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:33 AM

View Postgioguy21, on 12 October 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

View PostNoodler, on 12 October 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

It's like no one in this thread even bothered to read my previous post (#10).  You're all still talking about swingweight values as if you can compare your D2 to another guy's club that's at D2.

I blame the manufacturers and the industry that continues to pretend that swingweight values are absolute measures and meaningful across different clubs.

Is anybody listening?

actually, what we're talking about and what you were talking about (yes, read your post) are different things.

the reason why manufacturers/industry continues to (not pretend, it's a measurable value) use swing weighting is because golfers who prefer a 'heft' (as you put it) have a reference when ordering a club.

the fact you're discussing matters of MOI matching is NOT the same thing - which you mention.

Actually he's correct, MOI matching is heft matching with sound physics and engineering behind it.

Current WITB:
Driver: Taylormade R7 TP 8.5
Fwy Woods: new woods in process for next season
Irons: new set in process for next season
Wedges: Taylormade Tour Issue EF 54&60 deg w/TT DG X100
Putter: Slotline HMI w/Superstroke Slim 3.0
Ball: TP5 (bye bye bridgestone)

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#32 gioguy21

gioguy21

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,310 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 244071
  • Joined: 04/09/2013
  • Location:NJ
  • Handicap:+0.8
GolfWRX Likes : 2611

Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:34 AM

View PostCarvallo Golf, on 12 October 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

View Postgioguy21, on 12 October 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

View PostNoodler, on 12 October 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

It's like no one in this thread even bothered to read my previous post (#10).  You're all still talking about swingweight values as if you can compare your D2 to another guy's club that's at D2.

I blame the manufacturers and the industry that continues to pretend that swingweight values are absolute measures and meaningful across different clubs.

Is anybody listening?

actually, what we're talking about and what you were talking about (yes, read your post) are different things.

the reason why manufacturers/industry continues to (not pretend, it's a measurable value) use swing weighting is because golfers who prefer a 'heft' (as you put it) have a reference when ordering a club.

the fact you're discussing matters of MOI matching is NOT the same thing - which you mention.

Actually he's correct, MOI matching is heft matching with sound physics and engineering behind it.

he might be correct but the majority of golfers don't GAF about MOI matching irons --- but they care about swingweighting.  so...

G400 10.5* / Synergy PROTO 65TX

2017 M2 Tour 3HL / HZRDUS T1100 75g 6.0 Tipped 3/4"

UDI 20 / Tensei Pro White Hybrid 90TX

Custom TM Blades ('14 TP MBs) 4-PW /  Modus 105X

MD Forged 52 (10), 58 (8)  /  DG TI S200

Zombee Stinger BBZero F.I.T. (limited run) / 35.5"

TP5x OR ProV1


2

#33 Matt J

Matt J

    Hall of Fame

  • Unregistered
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,937 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 339857
  • Joined: 09/17/2014
  • Location:United States
GolfWRX Likes : 11072

Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:40 AM

The industry primarily used a 130 gram shaft and 50 gram grip, so swing weight was relevant.  And, still is, if you use those components.

I think they're building heads entirely too light for all of the 95 to 110 gram shafts they are offering.  So, generally, swing weight doesn't even get brought up, so not to draw attention to your C8 irons.

I MOI my clubs and prefer it, but I don't mind lead tape and I'm not particular about them being perfect.  If each club is a half a point to a point heavier I'm pretty happy.

3

#34 Noodler

Noodler

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 639 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 344441
  • Joined: 10/13/2014
  • Location:Denver, CO
GolfWRX Likes : 266

Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:56 AM

View Postgioguy21, on 12 October 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

View PostNoodler, on 12 October 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

It's like no one in this thread even bothered to read my previous post (#10).  You're all still talking about swingweight values as if you can compare your D2 to another guy's club that's at D2.

I blame the manufacturers and the industry that continues to pretend that swingweight values are absolute measures and meaningful across different clubs.

Is anybody listening?

actually, what we're talking about and what you were talking about (yes, read your post) are different things.

the reason why manufacturers/industry continues to (not pretend, it's a measurable value) use swing weighting is because golfers who prefer a 'heft' (as you put it) have a reference when ordering a club.

the fact you're discussing matters of MOI matching is NOT the same thing - which you mention.

Nope, you have it wrong.   MOI is an inherently measurable absolute value (comparable across any club) while swingweight only measures the balance about a 14" fulcrum for that specific club.  You seem to think a swingweight value is comparable across manufacturers and different clubs, but it's not.  This is the problem - you're confused and so is most of the golfing public.  Hundreds of clubs can all be built with a swingweight of D2 that do NOT have the same heft (feel).  Any preference for a particular swingweight value is total fallacy and I could prove it to anyone in a less than a minute by handing them 2 clubs at a swingweight of D2, but with wildly different MOI values.

4

#35 gioguy21

gioguy21

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,310 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 244071
  • Joined: 04/09/2013
  • Location:NJ
  • Handicap:+0.8
GolfWRX Likes : 2611

Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:59 AM

View PostNoodler, on 12 October 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

View Postgioguy21, on 12 October 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

View PostNoodler, on 12 October 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

It's like no one in this thread even bothered to read my previous post (#10).  You're all still talking about swingweight values as if you can compare your D2 to another guy's club that's at D2.

I blame the manufacturers and the industry that continues to pretend that swingweight values are absolute measures and meaningful across different clubs.

Is anybody listening?

actually, what we're talking about and what you were talking about (yes, read your post) are different things.

the reason why manufacturers/industry continues to (not pretend, it's a measurable value) use swing weighting is because golfers who prefer a 'heft' (as you put it) have a reference when ordering a club.

the fact you're discussing matters of MOI matching is NOT the same thing - which you mention.

Nope, you have it wrong.   MOI is an inherently measurable absolute value (comparable across any club) while swingweight only measures the balance about a 14" fulcrum for that specific club.  You seem to think a swingweight value is comparable across manufacturers and different clubs, but it's not.  This is the problem - you're confused and so is most of the golfing public.  Hundreds of clubs can all be built with a swingweight of D2 that do NOT have the same heft (feel).  Any preference for a particular swingweight value is total fallacy and I could prove it to anyone in a less than a minute by handing them 2 clubs at a swingweight of D2, but with wildly different MOI values.

ok, when are you changing the industry then? i mean, you'd have to go to each OEM and get them to MOI match. good luck with that.

by OEMs giving a swingweight, it gives a reference point. no one other than a golf 'nerd' (not calling you one, i'm simply saying an incredibly informed golf club builder/ho/etc -- i'm in this crew myself) knows, cares or even understands the MOI matching of clubs.

Edited by gioguy21, 12 October 2017 - 09:03 AM.

G400 10.5* / Synergy PROTO 65TX

2017 M2 Tour 3HL / HZRDUS T1100 75g 6.0 Tipped 3/4"

UDI 20 / Tensei Pro White Hybrid 90TX

Custom TM Blades ('14 TP MBs) 4-PW /  Modus 105X

MD Forged 52 (10), 58 (8)  /  DG TI S200

Zombee Stinger BBZero F.I.T. (limited run) / 35.5"

TP5x OR ProV1


5

#36 JCAG

JCAG

    John Curry

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 21371
  • Joined: 11/04/2006
  • Location:Lexington, SC
GolfWRX Likes : 207

Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:10 AM

One reason Swingweight is given such "weight" is any idiot with $40 can get a machine to measure it. Owning dental tools does not make one a Dentist.

6

#37 Matt J

Matt J

    Hall of Fame

  • Unregistered
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,937 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 339857
  • Joined: 09/17/2014
  • Location:United States
GolfWRX Likes : 11072

Posted 12 October 2017 - 02:26 PM

You should definitely need a 1000 dollar digital scale to build golf clubs?

This isn't calculus.  Lighter total weight needs to swing weight higher to feel "hefty" and a heavy shafted club less so, as it has heft in the shaft.

I like how much ground we've covered..
It's both totally irrelevant and also needs to be replaced with MOI measured to .0001 grams.  Makes perfect sense.  Couldn't possibly be somewhere in the middle?

7

#38 nbg352

nbg352

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,882 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 144021
  • Joined: 10/25/2011
  • Location:Ontario Golden Horseshoe
  • Handicap:8.6
GolfWRX Likes : 3552

Posted 12 October 2017 - 03:09 PM

View PostNoodler, on 12 October 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

It's like no one in this thread even bothered to read my previous post (#10).  You're all still talking about swingweight values as if you can compare your D2 to another guy's club that's at D2.

I blame the manufacturers and the industry that continues to pretend that swingweight values are absolute measures and meaningful across different clubs.

Is anybody listening?
Yes.
You make the most sense.
Everyone else here has inhuman sensitivity to feel. At least so they say.
In 11 years of dealing with people and their golf clubs, I have never had anyone complain about swing weight. Overall weight, yes. But never swing weight.
A very light club at c9 will probably perform badly for anyone who plays D4 and lead tapes those C9's to get it there. Those light weight C9's play just like a little heavier club at D4.
R11S 8* square; Stock stiff
Maltby  KE4  14* 3w , Axe Excaliber  R flex tipped 1"
RBZ 25* hb; RBZstage 2 19* hb
   Mizuno MP30  5 - PW, AXE Excaliber stiff, Hogan Apex PC E Wedge (50*) TT DG s300
GM Never Compromise GM2 putter
54*, 58* TM TP wedges 3* flat

8

#39 mw_golf

mw_golf

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 44 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 44254
  • Joined: 12/20/2007
  • Location:New England
GolfWRX Likes : 4

Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:47 PM

You don't need a $1000 piece equipment to measure swingweight -- it can be measured with a piece of thread, a scale to measure club weight, a tape measure and a calculator (if your mental math is less than perfect).

Swingweight is not an absolute -- I made myself a training club filling the shaft with play sand -- club weighs ~600g and swingweights around E0 but I can back-weight it to D4 -- same swingweight as my 9-iron -- I still wouldn't use it on the course!

Swingweight is really one of multiple guidelines for matching clubs to each other and to the golfer -- club weight, MOI, etc. are just as important.
Everyone above is correct in their views but some are more correct than others.  YMMV.  :swoon:

"Hit 'em long, hit 'em straight, and hit them less often."

9

#40 getitdaily

getitdaily

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 502 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 479556
  • Joined: 08/19/2017
  • Location:FL
  • Handicap:2
GolfWRX Likes : 130

Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:36 PM

I'll bite...what can one gain from an moi matched set of irons? Any data on better gir? Better proximity? Etc...


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#41 Noodler

Noodler

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 639 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 344441
  • Joined: 10/13/2014
  • Location:Denver, CO
GolfWRX Likes : 266

Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:28 PM

I was only trying to help golfers understand the true nature of swingweight.  I was not trying to tell anyone (or the manufacturers) that everyone should switch to using MOI.  Sorry if that was misunderstood.  My point simply was that swingweight is not comparable between different sets of clubs; that D2 means nothing when it comes to the actual swing heft felt by a golfer.  That two clubs can both be D2 and feel nothing like each other, yet golfers will continually reference their preferred swingweights as if there is something meaningful in that preference.  It's just total and absolute fallacy.  Sorry for trying to help.  You all can just go back to living in denial.

But understand how important understanding this fact is when buying your own clubs or going through a fitting.  You would come in as a much more educated consumer.  You would understand that just because the two clubs you're testing, both at a reported D2 swingweight, could have very different actual swing heft and have completely different balance ratios between their components.  You could stop blaming poor performance on a particular club head if any of that club's components was different from that other club with the head that you "love".  There are so many variables involved when testing clubs that it's important to recognize whether the testing you're involved in is being performed with some kind of scientific basis or just completely based on trial and error and the fallacy of swingweights.

Edited by Noodler, 12 October 2017 - 10:30 PM.


11

#42 playa

playa

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,260 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 280775
  • Joined: 10/18/2013
GolfWRX Likes : 3884

Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:52 PM

Put me firmly in the swingweight matters club. I hate anything below D3, and prefer D5-6 in irons.  I need to feel the clubhead during the swing.

12

#43 getitdaily

getitdaily

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 502 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 479556
  • Joined: 08/19/2017
  • Location:FL
  • Handicap:2
GolfWRX Likes : 130

Posted 13 October 2017 - 05:30 AM

View PostNoodler, on 12 October 2017 - 10:28 PM, said:

I was only trying to help golfers understand the true nature of swingweight.  I was not trying to tell anyone (or the manufacturers) that everyone should switch to using MOI.  Sorry if that was misunderstood.  My point simply was that swingweight is not comparable between different sets of clubs; that D2 means nothing when it comes to the actual swing heft felt by a golfer.  That two clubs can both be D2 and feel nothing like each other, yet golfers will continually reference their preferred swingweights as if there is something meaningful in that preference.  It's just total and absolute fallacy.  Sorry for trying to help.  You all can just go back to living in denial.

But understand how important understanding this fact is when buying your own clubs or going through a fitting.  You would come in as a much more educated consumer.  You would understand that just because the two clubs you're testing, both at a reported D2 swingweight, could have very different actual swing heft and have completely different balance ratios between their components.  You could stop blaming poor performance on a particular club head if any of that club's components was different from that other club with the head that you "love".  There are so many variables involved when testing clubs that it's important to recognize whether the testing you're involved in is being performed with some kind of scientific basis or just completely based on trial and error and the fallacy of swingweights.

You've just really come off as condescending in this thread. Swingweight has been the standard for a very long time. Whether moi is a bettwr gauge or not is beyond me, but if you're trying to influence folks into believing it is then you could sing a different tune rather than talk down to anyone who dares to disagree.

So, help me understand what moi will do for performance...not of my clubs or me, but my scores, ball striking, gir, proximity, etc. What data do you have, by handicap, age, etc, that shows moi is worth the effort?

13

#44 Curious

Curious

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 179 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 43349
  • Joined: 12/06/2007
GolfWRX Likes : 44

Posted 13 October 2017 - 06:27 AM

View PostCwebb, on 23 September 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

If you do very detailed testing, most will find some difference.  For example, test your irons with impact spray on the face to show exactly where you are striking them, while adding/subtracting head weight.  Most will find their impact pattern will change

True but you could do the same test with club lengths and get the same results i,e centre face contact. Which one would be correct  then? MOI or club length?

14

#45 rsballer10

rsballer10

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 625 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 102321
  • Joined: 01/21/2010
  • Location:Maryland
  • Ebay ID:rsballer10
GolfWRX Likes : 95

Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:25 AM

MOI is a great measurment! That doesn't make SW useless, as long as you spec SW @ a given total weight, you can easily convert between the two values.

I made a SW/MOI estimator in Excel years ago and came to the conclusion you either need MOI or SW&total weight.

MOI is superior in the sense it is only one spec as opposed to 2.


15

#46 Stuart G.

Stuart G.

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,395 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 174728
  • Joined: 04/12/2012
  • Location:New Hampshire
GolfWRX Likes : 5012

Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:54 AM

View Postrsballer10, on 13 October 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

MOI is superior in the sense it is only one spec as opposed to 2.

Sorry not quite.   Static weight is still an important and independent spec even when using MOI.   MOI just provides a better (absolute) spec in terms of the effort to rotate the club but the swing is not purely rotational and the "weight" feel of the club is still a combination of both the rotational effort (MOI) and the linear effort (static weight).

16

#47 getitdaily

getitdaily

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 502 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 479556
  • Joined: 08/19/2017
  • Location:FL
  • Handicap:2
GolfWRX Likes : 130

Posted 13 October 2017 - 03:16 PM

View PostStuart G., on 13 October 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

View Postrsballer10, on 13 October 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

MOI is superior in the sense it is only one spec as opposed to 2.

Sorry not quite.   Static weight is still an important and independent spec even when using MOI.   MOI just provides a better (absolute) spec in terms of the effort to rotate the club but the swing is not purely rotational and the "weight" feel of the club is still a combination of both the rotational effort (MOI) and the linear effort (static weight).

Stuart does this seem plausible?

M2 3wood with rogue silver had swing weight of d-0.5. Measured ball speed to be consistently 155-157. Added lead tape to bring sw up to d-2.5 and got consistent ball speed of 159-161.

Same with 3wood. Sw d-2. Ball speeds consistently 146-147. Upped sw to d-4 and got ball speeds 149-151.

17

#48 Matt J

Matt J

    Hall of Fame

  • Unregistered
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,937 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 339857
  • Joined: 09/17/2014
  • Location:United States
GolfWRX Likes : 11072

Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:27 PM

View Postmw_golf, on 12 October 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

You don't need a $1000 piece equipment to measure swingweight -- it can be measured with a piece of thread, a scale to measure club weight, a tape measure and a calculator (if your mental math is less than perfect).

Swingweight is not an absolute -- I made myself a training club filling the shaft with play sand -- club weighs ~600g and swingweights around E0 but I can back-weight it to D4 -- same swingweight as my 9-iron -- I still wouldn't use it on the course!

Swingweight is really one of multiple guidelines for matching clubs to each other and to the golfer -- club weight, MOI, etc. are just as important.
Everyone above is correct in their views but some are more correct than others.  YMMV.  :swoon:

"Hit 'em long, hit 'em straight, and hit them less often."

Google an MOI Scale.  That was what I was referring to.  I've got a manual swing weight scale, cost me 35 bucks.

18

#49 rsballer10

rsballer10

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 625 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 102321
  • Joined: 01/21/2010
  • Location:Maryland
  • Ebay ID:rsballer10
GolfWRX Likes : 95

Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:03 PM

View PostStuart G., on 13 October 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

View Postrsballer10, on 13 October 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

MOI is superior in the sense it is only one spec as opposed to 2.

Sorry not quite.   Static weight is still an important and independent spec even when using MOI.   MOI just provides a better (absolute) spec in terms of the effort to rotate the club but the swing is not purely rotational and the "weight" feel of the club is still a combination of both the rotational effort (MOI) and the linear effort (static weight).
Sorry, my bad. Didn't mean to provide incorrect info.

19

#50 Stuart G.

Stuart G.

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,395 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 174728
  • Joined: 04/12/2012
  • Location:New Hampshire
GolfWRX Likes : 5012

Posted 14 October 2017 - 03:40 AM

View Postgetitdaily, on 13 October 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

Stuart does this seem plausible?

M2 3wood with rogue silver had swing weight of d-0.5. Measured ball speed to be consistently 155-157. Added lead tape to bring sw up to d-2.5 and got consistent ball speed of 159-161.

Same with 3wood. Sw d-2. Ball speeds consistently 146-147. Upped sw to d-4 and got ball speeds 149-151.

Certainly.  Weight fitting (both static and rotational) can be (IMO) largely about matching up the weight feel with an individuals 'natural' sense of rhythm and timing.   A poor match (whether too light or too heavy) can fight against that 'natural' sense and motion and throw things off enough to effect the swing in a lot of ways for some people - including club head speed, or quality of impact or dynamic loft, release timing - all of which can effect the ball speed.

View Postrsballer10, on 13 October 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

Sorry, my bad. Didn't mean to provide incorrect info.

No worries.  It's not a simple subject by any means.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#51 Noodler

Noodler

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 639 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 344441
  • Joined: 10/13/2014
  • Location:Denver, CO
GolfWRX Likes : 266

Posted 15 October 2017 - 12:06 AM

View Postgetitdaily, on 13 October 2017 - 05:30 AM, said:

View PostNoodler, on 12 October 2017 - 10:28 PM, said:

I was only trying to help golfers understand the true nature of swingweight.  I was not trying to tell anyone (or the manufacturers) that everyone should switch to using MOI.  Sorry if that was misunderstood.  My point simply was that swingweight is not comparable between different sets of clubs; that D2 means nothing when it comes to the actual swing heft felt by a golfer.  That two clubs can both be D2 and feel nothing like each other, yet golfers will continually reference their preferred swingweights as if there is something meaningful in that preference.  It's just total and absolute fallacy.  Sorry for trying to help.  You all can just go back to living in denial.

But understand how important understanding this fact is when buying your own clubs or going through a fitting.  You would come in as a much more educated consumer.  You would understand that just because the two clubs you're testing, both at a reported D2 swingweight, could have very different actual swing heft and have completely different balance ratios between their components.  You could stop blaming poor performance on a particular club head if any of that club's components was different from that other club with the head that you "love".  There are so many variables involved when testing clubs that it's important to recognize whether the testing you're involved in is being performed with some kind of scientific basis or just completely based on trial and error and the fallacy of swingweights.

You've just really come off as condescending in this thread. Swingweight has been the standard for a very long time. Whether moi is a bettwr gauge or not is beyond me, but if you're trying to influence folks into believing it is then you could sing a different tune rather than talk down to anyone who dares to disagree.

So, help me understand what moi will do for performance...not of my clubs or me, but my scores, ball striking, gir, proximity, etc. What data do you have, by handicap, age, etc, that shows moi is worth the effort?

This isn't about MOI, yet this thread keeps coming back to that as the issue.  The issue is that swingweight is not an absolute measure that is comparable across clubs.  Saying "I like D2" is not meaningful.  Even the term swingweight is incorrect, as it is not a measure of weight, but rather a arbitrary measure of balance.  Most golfers are also unaware that matching swingweight across a set of irons does not match the dynamic heft required to swing those clubs.  Swingweight matching actually results in clubs that have progressively increasing heft as they get longer.

None of this means that using swingweight is inherently bad.  What is "bad" is misunderstanding what swingweight represents and when it is meaningful.  Many golfers have been in the sport for a long time and are quite accustomed to their clubs having increasing heft as they get longer.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that (whatever works for the golfer).

Sorry if my posts came off as condescending, but I was only trying to provide some improved knowledge of golf.

Edited by Noodler, 15 October 2017 - 12:07 AM.


21

#52 Howard Jones

Howard Jones

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,218 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 100881
  • Joined: 12/27/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 2550

Posted 15 October 2017 - 03:03 AM

View Postgetitdaily, on 13 October 2017 - 05:30 AM, said:

View PostNoodler, on 12 October 2017 - 10:28 PM, said:

I was only trying to help golfers understand the true nature of swingweight.  I was not trying to tell anyone (or the manufacturers) that everyone should switch to using MOI.  Sorry if that was misunderstood.  My point simply was that swingweight is not comparable between different sets of clubs; that D2 means nothing when it comes to the actual swing heft felt by a golfer.  That two clubs can both be D2 and feel nothing like each other, yet golfers will continually reference their preferred swingweights as if there is something meaningful in that preference.  It's just total and absolute fallacy.  Sorry for trying to help.  You all can just go back to living in denial.

But understand how important understanding this fact is when buying your own clubs or going through a fitting.  You would come in as a much more educated consumer.  You would understand that just because the two clubs you're testing, both at a reported D2 swingweight, could have very different actual swing heft and have completely different balance ratios between their components.  You could stop blaming poor performance on a particular club head if any of that club's components was different from that other club with the head that you "love".  There are so many variables involved when testing clubs that it's important to recognize whether the testing you're involved in is being performed with some kind of scientific basis or just completely based on trial and error and the fallacy of swingweights.

You've just really come off as condescending in this thread. Swingweight has been the standard for a very long time. Whether moi is a bettwr gauge or not is beyond me, but if you're trying to influence folks into believing it is then you could sing a different tune rather than talk down to anyone who dares to disagree.

So, help me understand what moi will do for performance...not of my clubs or me, but my scores, ball striking, gir, proximity, etc. What data do you have, by handicap, age, etc, that shows moi is worth the effort?

Lorry Adams is the man behind the mechanical instrument we call Swing Weight Scale, the original name was "Lorry Scale" (first name of the inventor).
They new about MOI or moment of inertia back then too, and the SW scale was meant to be a "mechanical short cut" to MOI, because the math behind was way to complicated before the microprocessor saw the day of light.

The SW scale was tested using many different fulcrums, both 12 and 16 inch was tested, but they found the 14" inch to be the one who seems to do the job best. But....the instrument was NOT precise, and it was never meant to be used across a hole bag, it was made to mach clubs of groups, (irons, ,woods,) and the options of shafts back then was not even close to what we got today, so different balance point of shafts was hardly a issue.

Today we do have microprocessors, and there is a "play ready" Digital MOI match scale on the marked, and there is no doubt that this instrument does the job way better, but that does not mean that the SW scale is useless, we just need to know how it really works and what limitations that instrument have.

After the digital MOI machines came to the marked in 2003, advanced club makers has "logged" their builds using both the digital scale and the SW scale so we can actually SE the errors the SW scale makes, AND make charts for how to adjust / eliminate those errors.

Its play length who fools the SW scale when we compare clubs (so can grip weight do), the SW scale has no clue about how long the actual club is, so while we has been fooled to believe that a set of irons should have the same SW value (all D2 or D3) to get the same feel of resistance and head weight, compares against the digital MOI scale has shown us that the SW value must be progressive "on the paper", to be flat real life.

For classic sets with a play length difference of 0.5" or 4/8" between clubs, SW value progression must be 2/3 or 0.66 SW point plus for each club shorter. Since most places still uses a #6 iron as fitting iron, a correct build set based on a #6 iron with the standard value D2 should have looked like this

PW- D4 1/3 (when played 0.25 shorter than the "9 iron)
#9 - D4
#8 - D3 1/3
#7 - D2 2/3
#6 - D2
#5 - D1 1/3
#4 - D0 2/3
#3 - D0

NOW all clubs in the set will feel like the #6 iron of D2, and thats what Noodler is referring too.
Players who thing "all their clubs" should be D4 (both irons and driver), would most likely have been better off if they did not know anything about SW, because they got it all wrong, and will never be able to make any club to really perform as it should.

SW values alone is useless unless we are in a position where we are duplicating specs of one club to another, and many forget that SW values does not matter much if play length and or total weight is off. SW is only a part of a hole, its not a parameter who needs attention unless we have the others right first, the any player will notice that even small differences to SW DOES make a difference.

We see the same during shaft fitting. If the player really should play a 115 gram shaft, we cant make it right for him using 130 grams or 100 grams and think we can just fine tune head weight up or down and be home free, it does not work like that, and some players will even have a hard time telling if the 100 gram shafted club has the highest or lightest total weight (balance point of the shaft can sometimes fool us bad).
When this player gets a 115 gram shaft, he will notice 1 gram up or down in head weight, he will not be able to detect that gram when total weight is off in the first place, then it all feel "off" but often in a way we cant really express. The closer to "ideal" we gets, the more sensitive we become.

If we now go back to the list of irons with progressive SW value, we get to see that a #3 iron matching a #6 iron of D2 gives a #3 iron of D0
2 SW points is 4 grams head weight, and thats WAY over and beyond what any player will notice when play length and total weight is right,
......so the SW scale is still good, we just have to understand how to use it right, if not we have no clue about what we are dealing with.

Its common knowledge that only "better players" is able to play their 4 and 3 iron, and the SW scale is partly the problem.
Instead of a set where all clubs has the same actual resistance, we get a set where resistance goes up the longer the club is.
At one level, often at the #5 iron, club speed progression stops, the club simply has to much resistance, so the player cant take advantage of a club 0.5" longer, it does not provide the needed extra club speed of about 2 mph pr club.

When clubs are MOI matched, most players will be able to play one club longer, some even both the 3 and 4 iron they could not play before because they made to many bad shots with them.

Same Actual Resiatance means the same swing and effort on all clubs, it was the purpose of the SW scale, but it could never do the job right before now that we know its errors.

Edited by Howard Jones, 15 October 2017 - 03:15 AM.


22

#53 getitdaily

getitdaily

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 502 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 479556
  • Joined: 08/19/2017
  • Location:FL
  • Handicap:2
GolfWRX Likes : 130

Posted 15 October 2017 - 06:15 AM

Ok, though I still don't understand the calculation around moi, I certainly understand the feel and forgiveness of moi in a putter and moi in a driver.

I play mp63 irons and couldn't hit the 3 iron worth a flop, mostly couldn't get it airborne. Went to a golf retailer and they had me hit an mph5 3 iron and 4 iron. The mph5 3iron was clearly superior to the mp63 but there was no difference in launch characteristics of the two 4 irons. Was it moi that was the difference between the mph5 and the mp63?

Pretty sure the mp63 and mph5 3irons had either the same or very similar swingweight. The mp63 had a 15-20 gram heavier shaft. Not sure if the heads had different weights.

23

#54 Stuart G.

Stuart G.

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,395 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 174728
  • Joined: 04/12/2012
  • Location:New Hampshire
GolfWRX Likes : 5012

Posted 15 October 2017 - 07:33 AM

View Postgetitdaily, on 15 October 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

Ok, though I still don't understand the calculation around moi, I certainly understand the feel and forgiveness of moi in a putter and moi in a driver.

Very different MOI's. MOI is just a way to represent how the mass of something is distributed with respect to a particular axis of rotation and how much effort it takes to rotate that object (or really get the object rotating) about that particular axis.   There are different uses of MOI in club design and club building and it's easy to confuse them.

When we talk about the MOI of the head and forgiveness, we are using an axis through the center of gravity (both horizontal and vertical)- and the MOI tells us how much the head might rotate for an off center hit (and cause the ball to travel off line or change the spin through gear effect).  The higher the MOI, the less it will rotate for a given off center impact and the more forgiving it will be.

When we talk about the MOI of the club (as an alternative to swing weight) we are talking about an axis at the handle and the feel of the effort (or resistance) to swing the club.  Matching this feel is what the swing weight scale was designed to help with (in limited contexts).

View Postgetitdaily, on 15 October 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

I play mp63 irons and couldn't hit the 3 iron worth a flop, mostly couldn't get it airborne. Went to a golf retailer and they had me hit an mph5 3 iron and 4 iron. The mph5 3iron was clearly superior to the mp63 but there was no difference in launch characteristics of the two 4 irons. Was it moi that was the difference between the mph5 and the mp63?

Pretty sure the mp63 and mph5 3irons had either the same or very similar swing weight. The mp63 had a 15-20 gram heavier shaft. Not sure if the heads had different weights.

The difference in the head design can certainly help but it also sounds like the difference in shaft weight (total club weight) likely played a big part as well.   Getting a long iron up in the air is largely about getting good contact and having enough club head speed.   A lighter shaft / static weight can sometimes help with the later.  A good fit for weight has to look at static weight (shaft weight) first, and swing weight second.

Edited by Stuart G., 15 October 2017 - 07:37 AM.


24

#55 Howard Jones

Howard Jones

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,218 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 100881
  • Joined: 12/27/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 2550

Posted 15 October 2017 - 07:53 AM

View Postgetitdaily, on 15 October 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

Ok, though I still don't understand the calculation around moi, I certainly understand the feel and forgiveness of moi in a putter and moi in a driver.

I play mp63 irons and couldn't hit the 3 iron worth a flop, mostly couldn't get it airborne. Went to a golf retailer and they had me hit an mph5 3 iron and 4 iron. The mph5 3iron was clearly superior to the mp63 but there was no difference in launch characteristics of the two 4 irons. Was it moi that was the difference between the mph5 and the mp63?

Pretty sure the mp63 and mph5 3irons had either the same or very similar swingweight. The mp63 had a 15-20 gram heavier shaft. Not sure if the heads had different weights.

Be aware of that the term MOI is used for both the clubs over all resistance to move, (like the subject is here), but also a club heads ability to resist twisting on heel or toe shots,(or toe or heel face ballanced putters) and thats NOT part of the MOI we talk here. The MOI or SW value for debate here is how the player experience resistance and feel of both shaft and head weight of a club.

MOI or SW alone is NOT good enough, because we have so many ways to "please the SW scale" to get a certain return value, but it does not mean the clubs will feel or play the same. Length and Total weight has to be right before we can fine tune on head weight.

The "offset chart" for using a SW scale to actually match clubs vs play length goes like this.
If length difference between the clubs is.....then difference in SW value should be:

1/8" = 1/6 or 0.165 SWP
2/8" = 1/3 or 0.333 SWP
3/8" = 1/2 or 0.500 SWP
4/8" = 2/3 or 0.667 SWP
5/8" = 5/6 or 0.833 SWP
6/8" = 1.0 SWP
7/8" = 1 1/6 or 1.157
1.0" = 1 1/3 or 1.333 SWP

So if your irons has D2 as a #6 iron at standard 37.50" , and you play a driver of 44, we have a difference of 6.5 inch each of 1.333 SWP = 8.65 SWP down, so a driver with the right total weight would have a direct match with a SW value of only C3 to C3.5

Now comes the interesting stuff. The HOLE BAG should NOT be matched to the same MOI value, most players benefit from a slight slope where progression actually goes up from irons to hybrid, and a tad further to woods, and the driver on top. How large the actual progression should be is individual, but "translated to SW values", the player who plays good with a #6 iron of D2, will most likely feel at home with a driver at C8-C9, so those who might rebuild their driver to a shorter play length and make a full reset of the original SW value...they goes to heavy on head weight for the most, its a common mistake..


25

#56 getitdaily

getitdaily

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 502 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 479556
  • Joined: 08/19/2017
  • Location:FL
  • Handicap:2
GolfWRX Likes : 130

Posted 15 October 2017 - 10:43 AM

Ok, so then back to an original question of mine...

Are there any stats that back up that moi matched sets do something; better gir, bettwr proximity, etc? Are tour pros turning to moi matched sets?

26

#57 Curious

Curious

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 179 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 43349
  • Joined: 12/06/2007
GolfWRX Likes : 44

Posted 29 October 2017 - 07:45 AM

View Postgetitdaily, on 15 October 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

Ok, so then back to an original question of mine...

Are there any stats that back up that moi matched sets do something; better gir, bettwr proximity, etc? Are tour pros turning to moi matched sets?

Don't know if there are any such stats. However imho it is a much  better way to match for heft. Same effort with all clubs. Will that produce better scores? Tough to quantify as there are a lot of other factors involved such as athletic ability,chipping, putting, practice time and the list goes on. But overtime imho a golfer will make better and more consistent contact and that's really what it's all about no?

27



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors