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PXG sues Taylor Made


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#181 BirdieBob

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:08 PM

View PostCwing, on 13 September 2017 - 06:30 PM, said:

View Postnoodle3872, on 13 September 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

View PostNessism, on 13 September 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 13 September 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Per the GolfWRX release spiel about the 790" In the two years TaylorMade spent developing the P-790 irons, it tested several filler materials, one of which was thermoplastic elastomer (TPE), the material PXG uses to fill the inside of its 0311 irons. “The problem with the TPE is that it completely kills your COR,” Bystedt says."

When I first read this, I thought "they really aren't hiding the fact that they are imitating the same process that PXG is using". The are inserting the goo the same way, building the head the same way. Now they are using the same TPE, and are tweaking on that.

You can't just flat out imitate a product. Clearly, the 0311 influenced the design of the 790. The engineer in the WRX article indirectly stated that himself. You can't seriously look at the 0311, how it's made, the materials and the process, and not believe Taylormade decided to make their own version of this. As soon as the P790 was released, everybody compared it to the 0311. Go read or watch ANY review and find one that doesn't mention PXG. Believe what you want about Mr. Parsons, but most anyone would sue over this, much like how PING should have sued PXG over the shaping of the PXG irons, particularly the 0311T a.k.a. the forged S55 with goo.

As has already been mentioned several pages back, Taylormade has a long history of making irons with foam "goo" inside so who's copying who?  

And just as every ball maker cuts open the competitors balls to see what they are up to, it's obvious that Taylormade cut open a PXG club or two.  Does that mean they copied them?  NO.  If anything it seems that Taylormade created a club that has some similar features as a PXG but also some enhancements (higher COR).  And cheaper.  Maybe PXG should sue Taylormade for that?  Titleist did that to Costco.  Guys living in the artificial world of unsupported high costs are scared.

In my mind, "making irons with foam "goo" inside" is one thing.  Holding patents on "making irons with foam "goo" inside" is quite a different position to be in.  This is could be similar the Titleist/Callaway battle all over again.

I find myself in a can't lose/can't win position because I own both PXG 0311 irons AND TM P790 irons.  The only reason I picked up the TM irons was because they have less offset than my 0311's and more offset than the 0311T which had too little offset for my tastes.

Ok, comparison review please!
Here is a link to my post in the p790 thread that provides comparison between the p790 and pxg 0311xf irons, which was done by michael newton golf.

http://www.golfwrx.c...0#entry16119454

Edited by BirdieBob, 13 September 2017 - 07:38 PM.


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#182 Medic

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:30 PM

Yet another thread where the value of this board and its members really shines through.

With hundreds of thousands of members many are attorneys - there is no doubt. And I honestly and sincerely enjoy reading their replies when they share their knowledge and expertise.

This next statement might sound like I am being silly or something but in all seriousness - is this lawsuit going to potentially adversely affect the prices of the used TM items out there? Cause a sort of a devaluing?

I was amazed at how quickly the Nike drivers dropped in price/value. Great drivers could be had for incredibly low prices and I could not help but wonder if a lawsuit such as this, with such critical/bad timing for TM, could cause a drop in their market value?

Thanks again to the attorneys on here for sharing - and in advance for some educated guesses on my question.
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#183 the bishop

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:31 PM

View PostBirdieBob, on 13 September 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

View PostCwing, on 13 September 2017 - 06:30 PM, said:

View Postnoodle3872, on 13 September 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

View PostNessism, on 13 September 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 13 September 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Per the GolfWRX release spiel about the 790" In the two years TaylorMade spent developing the P-790 irons, it tested several filler materials, one of which was thermoplastic elastomer (TPE), the material PXG uses to fill the inside of its 0311 irons. “The problem with the TPE is that it completely kills your COR,” Bystedt says."

When I first read this, I thought "they really aren't hiding the fact that they are imitating the same process that PXG is using". The are inserting the goo the same way, building the head the same way. Now they are using the same TPE, and are tweaking on that.

You can't just flat out imitate a product. Clearly, the 0311 influenced the design of the 790. The engineer in the WRX article indirectly stated that himself. You can't seriously look at the 0311, how it's made, the materials and the process, and not believe Taylormade decided to make their own version of this. As soon as the P790 was released, everybody compared it to the 0311. Go read or watch ANY review and find one that doesn't mention PXG. Believe what you want about Mr. Parsons, but most anyone would sue over this, much like how PING should have sued PXG over the shaping of the PXG irons, particularly the 0311T a.k.a. the forged S55 with goo.

As has already been mentioned several pages back, Taylormade has a long history of making irons with foam "goo" inside so who's copying who?  

And just as every ball maker cuts open the competitors balls to see what they are up to, it's obvious that Taylormade cut open a PXG club or two.  Does that mean they copied them?  NO.  If anything it seems that Taylormade created a club that has some similar features as a PXG but also some enhancements (higher COR).  And cheaper.  Maybe PXG should sue Taylormade for that?  Titleist did that to Costco.  Guys living in the artificial world of unsupported high costs are scared.

In my mind, "making irons with foam "goo" inside" is one thing.  Holding patents on "making irons with foam "goo" inside" is quite a different position to be in.  This is could be similar the Titleist/Callaway battle all over again.

I find myself in a can't lose/can't win position because I own both PXG 0311 irons AND TM P790 irons.  The only reason I picked up the TM irons was because they have less offset than my 0311's and more offset than the 0311T which had too little offset for my tastes.

Ok, comparison review please!
Here is a link to my post in the p790 thread that provides comparison between the p790 and pxg 0311xf irons, which was done by michael newton golf.

http://www.golfwrx.c...s#entry16119454
That's a link to the thread, not the specific post.  Go to your post.  Over on the right is the number which tells you what post it is in the thread.  Click on that number and then copy and paste the url from that.
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#184 BirdieBob

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:40 PM

^^^^ corrected link posted above....and here:

http://www.golfwrx.c...0#entry16119454

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#185 the bishop

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:57 PM

View PostBirdieBob, on 13 September 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

^^^^ corrected link posted above....and here:

http://www.golfwrx.c...0#entry16119454
Thx.  Wanted to watch the video but didn't feel like parsing 19 pages of a thread to find it.

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#186 rawdog

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:02 PM

View PostMedic, on 13 September 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Yet another thread where the value of this board and its members really shines through.

With hundreds of thousands of members many are attorneys - there is no doubt. And I honestly and sincerely enjoy reading their replies when they share their knowledge and expertise.

This next statement might sound like I am being silly or something but in all seriousness - is this lawsuit going to potentially adversely affect the prices of the used TM items out there? Cause a sort of a devaluing?

I was amazed at how quickly the Nike drivers dropped in price/value. Great drivers could be had for incredibly low prices and I could not help but wonder if a lawsuit such as this, with such critical/bad timing for TM, could cause a drop in their market value?

Thanks again to the attorneys on here for sharing - and in advance for some educated guesses on my question.

A devaluing would happen if their clubs were somehow deemed to be inferior in quality than how they are perceived now, or if somehow there was a glut of product to be unleashed on the market. I don't foresee that as an outcome of any reasonable scenario here.

If anything, if there was a perception that TM would have to give up some IP, or stop using certain tech in their current lineup, prices could go up as buyers gobble up product before it comes off the market.

As others have mentioned, the lawsuit could be seen as a signal that TM offers an equal (or close to) product at a fraction of the price. (We all kind of knew that anyway :) ) In that case, TM prices could be viewed as a good deal, or too low for the market, and as people gobble up the product, they'd be willing to pay more than they currently are.

Anyhow, I don't see a scenario in which perception of TM product changes negatively, and I don't see a scenario in which a glut of product hits the market.

Edited by rawdog, 13 September 2017 - 08:04 PM.

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#187 jdcadkin

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:26 PM

View PostZ1ggy16, on 13 September 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

Not a lawyer, so somebody who IS one, please fill me (and everybody else in) but how does a "broad" patent work, such as when PXG might patent say "foam injection molding" inside of a club face? Does that mean NO other companies in the world are now allowed to put foam inside their irons? Or is it just the exact process by which it is done?

To me this is like a car company putting a patent on the idea of using a steering wheel. How could one company be allowed to put a strangle hold on a certain way of building something that could be done a million different ways?

Unless TM copied PXGs exact formula for the foam, the way it's sprayed in... down to every last detail, from my layman's point of view, I don't see how this holds up in court.

I'm a lawyer who practiced patent litigation for 7 years, and now in-house counsel doing patent licensing.

The patent only protects the inventions as described in the claims (the long, numbered sentences in the last few pages of the patent itself).  None of the PXG patents appear (based on my brief review) to be so broad as cover simply foam injection molding into a clubhead.  All the claims appear to require a club head with elastomeric polymer inside in addition to many specific limitations regarding the location and quantity of weight ports in the clubhead.  The claims are really, really specific and PXG by no means has a monopoly on the ability to inject foam or polymers into golf clubs.

Edited by jdcadkin, 13 September 2017 - 08:26 PM.

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#188 Jasonic

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:10 PM

View Postebrasmus21, on 13 September 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

View Postebrasmus21, on 13 September 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

View Postmbrady4, on 13 September 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

View Postbrew4eagle, on 13 September 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

View Postmagpies69, on 13 September 2017 - 01:50 AM, said:

I play what  is best for my game regardless of the brand and made to switch to PXG since the beginning of the year and was really impress with the stopping power, height, distance and forgiveness. Mainly was impress with the stopping power. Tried the P790 but it doesn't have the stopping power like PXG.

Know there is loads of hate for PXG but for a high handicapper like me playing to +15, the PXG really is pretty good. Don't really care about the lawsuit but am please that every company now is trying to bring their best to us and that's a good thing.

Stopping power?  C'mon, man!!!
Yea stopping power. In case someone breaks into his house in the middle of the night it will only take 1 golf ball hit to take down the intruder. Lol

That's only with the larger caliber clubs like their new driving iron as an example.
Thats a great point. Hopefully he's got the hollow point screws in the right place

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I heard the K-sig stops intruders in his tracks as well as a pro v
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#189 Imhappyinthe80s

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:35 PM

Taylormade infringed by saying their sweet spot was the size of Alaska. ChaFoom! Total rip of genius marketing
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#190 new2g0lf

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:54 PM

View PostMedic, on 13 September 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Yet another thread where the value of this board and its members really shines through.

With hundreds of thousands of members many are attorneys - there is no doubt. And I honestly and sincerely enjoy reading their replies when they share their knowledge and expertise.

This next statement might sound like I am being silly or something but in all seriousness - is this lawsuit going to potentially adversely affect the prices of the used TM items out there? Cause a sort of a devaluing?

I was amazed at how quickly the Nike drivers dropped in price/value. Great drivers could be had for incredibly low prices and I could not help but wonder if a lawsuit such as this, with such critical/bad timing for TM, could cause a drop in their market value?

Thanks again to the attorneys on here for sharing - and in advance for some educated guesses on my question.
When Nike got out of the hard goods business their newest clubs were heavily discounted by retailers and Nike to minimize their losses.  Once the new equipment market was devalued it had a ripple effect on the used equipment as well, except for those older models that were very highly regarded or seen as a collectible.

If TM loses the lawsuit and that affects their on-going business or the sale of their business by Adidas the uncertainty could result in a sell off of new equipment but it's not likely to be catastrophic like Nike exiting the hard goods market so I wouldn't worry.


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#191 sethdavidsdad

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:00 PM

Is this the play then? the lawsuit just forces the Private equity group to drop the sale then Parsons takes over and buys TM? He gets the woods he needs to make his line complete. We end up paying way to much for Golf equipment in the future???
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#192 new2g0lf

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:11 PM

View Postsethdavidsdad, on 13 September 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

Is this the play then? the lawsuit just forces the Private equity group to drop the sale then Parsons takes over and buys TM? He gets the woods he needs to make his line complete. We end up paying way to much for Golf equipment in the future???

I doubt anyone except the Private Equity Group (PEG) and Adidas knows what events would qualify as just cause to terminate the acquisition agreement.   We also don't know who authorized the sale and advertising of the P790 irons, was it Adidas or the PEG?  

As many suggested in the Titleist vs Costco lawsuit, this suit will bring a lot of free publicity to both companies.  If TM knows they are in violation of PXG patents they will try to settle and acquire a licensing agreement from PXG otherwise they may be forced to pull the P790 irons off the market until the patent violations are addressed.   There are way too many unknowns to even speculate what the real motivations of PXG and TM are.

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#193 sethdavidsdad

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:16 PM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 13 September 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

View Postsethdavidsdad, on 13 September 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

Is this the play then? the lawsuit just forces the Private equity group to drop the sale then Parsons takes over and buys TM? He gets the woods he needs to make his line complete. We end up paying way to much for Golf equipment in the future???

I doubt anyone except the Private Equity Group (PEG) and Adidas knows what events would qualify as just cause to terminate the acquisition agreement.   We also don't know who authorized the sale and advertising of the P790 irons, was it Adidas or the PEG?  

As many suggested in the Titleist vs Costco lawsuit, this suit will bring a lot of free publicity to both companies.  If TM knows they are in violation of PXG patents they will try to settle and acquire a licensing agreement from PXG otherwise they may be forced to pull the P790 irons off the market until the patent violations are addressed.   There are way too many unknowns to even speculate what the real motivations of PXG and TM are.
Agree. Just speculation. PXG irons seem good but don’t know anyone that likes the woods
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#194 jdcadkin

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:35 PM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 13 September 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

View Postsethdavidsdad, on 13 September 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

Is this the play then? the lawsuit just forces the Private equity group to drop the sale then Parsons takes over and buys TM? He gets the woods he needs to make his line complete. We end up paying way to much for Golf equipment in the future???

I doubt anyone except the Private Equity Group (PEG) and Adidas knows what events would qualify as just cause to terminate the acquisition agreement.   We also don't know who authorized the sale and advertising of the P790 irons, was it Adidas or the PEG?  

As many suggested in the Titleist vs Costco lawsuit, this suit will bring a lot of free publicity to both companies.  If TM knows they are in violation of PXG patents they will try to settle and acquire a licensing agreement from PXG otherwise they may be forced to pull the P790 irons off the market until the patent violations are addressed.   There are way too many unknowns to even speculate what the real motivations of PXG and TM are.

TM will not have to stop selling the 790s during the pendency of the lawsuit. Only in the highly unlikely event the Court grants the TRO and then also grants a preliminary injunction may that happen.  The odds of that happening, however, are crazy low.
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#195 rawdog

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:38 PM

View Postjdcadkin, on 13 September 2017 - 10:35 PM, said:

View Postnew2g0lf, on 13 September 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

View Postsethdavidsdad, on 13 September 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

Is this the play then? the lawsuit just forces the Private equity group to drop the sale then Parsons takes over and buys TM? He gets the woods he needs to make his line complete. We end up paying way to much for Golf equipment in the future???

I doubt anyone except the Private Equity Group (PEG) and Adidas knows what events would qualify as just cause to terminate the acquisition agreement.   We also don't know who authorized the sale and advertising of the P790 irons, was it Adidas or the PEG?  

As many suggested in the Titleist vs Costco lawsuit, this suit will bring a lot of free publicity to both companies.  If TM knows they are in violation of PXG patents they will try to settle and acquire a licensing agreement from PXG otherwise they may be forced to pull the P790 irons off the market until the patent violations are addressed.   There are way too many unknowns to even speculate what the real motivations of PXG and TM are.

TM will not have to stop selling the 790s during the pendency of the lawsuit. Only in the highly unlikely event the Court grants the TRO and then also grants a preliminary injunction may that happen.  The odds of that happening, however, are crazy low.

Just noticed, nice 771s in your sig.

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#196 Kingcat990

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:09 PM

Hats off to fellow members. This hasn't turned into a pissing contest and has been an interesting discussion throughout. Was afraid I would come home today and it would be locked up.
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#197 DBill

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 03:04 AM

View PostPowderedToastMan, on 13 September 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Per the GolfWRX release spiel about the 790" In the two years TaylorMade spent developing the P-790 irons, it tested several filler materials, one of which was thermoplastic elastomer (TPE), the material PXG uses to fill the inside of its 0311 irons. “The problem with the TPE is that it completely kills your COR,” Bystedt says."

When I first read this, I thought "they really aren't hiding the fact that they are imitating the same process that PXG is using". The are inserting the goo the same way, building the head the same way. Now they are using the same TPE, and are tweaking on that.

You can't just flat out imitate a product. Clearly, the 0311 influenced the design of the 790. The engineer in the WRX article indirectly stated that himself. You can't seriously look at the 0311, how it's made, the materials and the process, and not believe Taylormade decided to make their own version of this. As soon as the P790 was released, everybody compared it to the 0311. Go read or watch ANY review and find one that doesn't mention PXG. Believe what you want about Mr. Parsons, but most anyone would sue over this, much like how PING should have sued PXG over the shaping of the PXG irons, particularly the 0311T a.k.a. the forged S55 with goo.

Being on the trip to test the 790 irons, I asked if Taylormade, and other brands, get other clubs and reverse engineer them.  The answer was a resounding yes, everyone does it.  They tested a lot of different fillers in the head before they landed on the speed foam.

Again, my thought here is that Parsons is butt hurt about someone designing an iron similar to his and performing better.

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#198 BenjiHogan

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 04:05 AM

"Nobody makes clubs the way we do. Period."



























Apart from taylormade      :swoon: :swoon: :swoon: :swoon:

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#199 TLfan

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 06:06 AM

Quote

Again, my thought here is that Parsons is butt hurt about someone designing an iron similar to his and performing better.

Performing better? Says who? Surely that is subjective, but coming from a person who won a trip to TM for the 790 fitting we shouldn't expect any less I guess.....
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#200 505

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 06:33 AM

View Postnoodle3872, on 13 September 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

In my mind, "making irons with foam "goo" inside" is one thing.  Holding patents on "making irons with foam "goo" inside" is quite a different position to be in.

Uhm, actually, making something long before the patent was issued to somebody else is actually a pretty big deal. Parsons is going to lose these patents over this.

View PostAndrew Bond of Glencoe, on 13 September 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

...you can share all the old tech you like- if PXG has the patent then it doesn't matter what you have done in the past.

I'm guessing neither one of you are familiar with "prior art"? These patents are all so broad and ridiculous that I am amazed they were ever granted in the first place.

-------------

Let's all take a closer look at the ones that are specifically listed in the lawsuit:


'336 - A weight port on the toe at or below the midplane. WOW! Obviously deserving of a patent since nobody else has EVER put a weight port on a golf club towards the bottom/toe.

'143 - TWO weight ports, with one weighing LESS than the other. Revolutionary Bob, how did you ever come up with that one?

'938 - Face thickness less than 1.5mm. Really? I mean they truly granted this crap? BRB guys... I'm gonna go apply for a patent on a rocket that goes to the moon.

'203 - Toe, top, sole, front, and back... multi piece construction. Done before, and this is getting repetitive.

'727 - Weight ports again, this time worded exactly the same as 143, but there might be MORE sole weights!

'201 - Basically now just combining all of the above into one and padding out the ol' patent portfolio. "We have 128 patents!... nevermind the fact that it's really just like 4 ideas reworded 32 different ways, and the original 4 are things that everyone else was already doing, but it's totally 128 patents and Bob is a super awesome philanthropist and avid golfer and his clubs are super, duper, meteorically successful!

'481 - Volume of the interior cavity. Should be thrown out for being obvious given the already set nature of iron head size.

'853 - Weights again. This time it states that the weight itself might be a different material than the rest of the club. Duh. That's kind of the point of these things. If they were the same material as the head, you wouldn't be able to effectively add much weight now would you? So you use tungsten for your heavies. And Titanium for your lights. Thrown out for being obvious as well as already having been done.


These patents are just bad, and whoever issued them should feel bad.

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#201 DevilDog

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 06:55 AM

It's not all process in the lawsuit.  Apparently design is part of it according to this article from Golf Magazine.  Probably more of a business move by Parsons but the fact is that design is indeed part of this lawsuit.

http://www.golf.com/...ny-prove-to-win

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#202 bladehunter

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 07:23 AM

View PostTLfan, on 14 September 2017 - 06:06 AM, said:

Quote

Again, my thought here is that Parsons is butt hurt about someone designing an iron similar to his and performing better.

Performing better? Says who? Surely that is subjective, but coming from a person who won a trip to TM for the 790 fitting we shouldn't expect any less I guess.....


given the fact that TM has been designing clubheads since before Parsons became a big head billionaire then id say they likely preform as good or better ....   they have had a chance to reverse engineer parsons irons , then address any shortcomings....  so yes its likely that the TM product is better when you add the tech to the experience of TM....  but its probably more accurate to say they are equal in tech and it comes down to feel and turf interaction... since the 790 is smaller id give them the knod...especially at half price...

Edited by bladehunter, 14 September 2017 - 07:25 AM.

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#203 Holy Moses

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 07:27 AM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 12 September 2017 - 10:48 PM, said:

1. You don't have to have a patent on what a club is made of.  PXG sued based on a  process patent.  A process patent patents the process by which a product is made, not what the finished product is.  All these posts about how long people have had whatever foam in what are irrelevant.  We have zero idea if TM violated (or didn't violate) a process patent.  The suit is over the process by which the club is constructed, not the technology in the finished product.

2. Taylormade was just purchased for only 425 million by a private equity firm.  They are incredibly vulnerable right now.  It is likely that the current executives in charge have no idea how to defend this, and Parsons' timing is perfect.  They need to spent to pay for the financing on the acquisition, and they will have basically zero free cash to defend themselves.  Its pretty common for companies to get hammered and dog piled on by competitors when they are bought using high leverage by private equity.  Contrary to this thread, Parsons is no dummy, and its not a coincidence he waited until a private equity firm was in charge (and not golf people) to do this.  Most probable is that he wants something TM has, and he wants to buy it at a slight markup.  The private equity guys just want a flip, so they'll play ball rather than defend golf technology they barely understand using cash they don't have.  Its a super aggressive move, but it isn't dumb.  

PXG needs to improve its woods desperately and TM is pretty good at those.  Smells like a settlement with a cross-license, which TM would never give without force.  Now that they are thinly capitalized and owned by non-golf people, Parsons is attacking.  If TM was still owned by Adidas, this never happens.

So, about 80% of posts in this thread are dealing with a non-issue - the composition of the irons is irrelevant.  Its a process issue.  We will have to see how it plays out, but all this speculation is silly.

I don't think there is anything related to timing going on here. TaylorMade just recently showed their new irons off which are about to be released. Bob swiftly sued them. The dominoes fell quickly.

So when does Bob get sued for taking Ping's design and ideas?
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#204 Holy Moses

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 07:29 AM

View PostGnomesteel, on 13 September 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

So, why hasn't Parsons sued Edel? Don't their one length irons have polymer inside the cavity too?

Edel has no money
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#205 TheMoneyShot

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 07:30 AM

This thread is hilarious....


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#206 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 07:31 AM

View PostDevilDog, on 14 September 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

It's not all process in the lawsuit.  Apparently design is part of it according to this article from Golf Magazine.  Probably more of a business move by Parsons but the fact is that design is indeed part of this lawsuit.

http://www.golf.com/...ny-prove-to-win

1. You usually put every single claim you can possibly think of into the lawsuit.  We saw this in the Titleist case.  In federal court the cut-off for amendment is 90 days.  Use it or lose it.  The worst that happens is they just dismiss on their own motion in a while or take a pie in the face on MSJ.  If they don't include it and then find some smoking gun email from a TM exec like "F Bob Parsons let's just steal his patent" they could run out of time.  Not to mention that the SoL keeps running despite litigation being filed unless you include that specific claim.

2. I don't think this lawsuit was filed to win it.  The timing with the PE deal is too perfect.  That is just speculation on my part.  I know nothing about patent law beyond law school 101, but I know a whole lot about M&A and tax law.  As rawdog, an investment banker said these lawsuits are routine when you are approaching a PE close.  Adidas has to either pay Parsons off or he has to walk away from the deal. Its basically a sophisticated form of greenmail.
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#207 TM_HOYER

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 07:37 AM

View Post505, on 14 September 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

Let's all take a closer look at the ones that are specifically listed in the lawsuit:


'336 - A weight port on the toe at or below the midplane. WOW! Obviously deserving of a patent since nobody else has EVER put a weight port on a golf club towards the bottom/toe.

'143 - TWO weight ports, with one weighing LESS than the other. Revolutionary Bob, how did you ever come up with that one?

'938 - Face thickness less than 1.5mm. Really? I mean they truly granted this crap? BRB guys... I'm gonna go apply for a patent on a rocket that goes to the moon.

'203 - Toe, top, sole, front, and back... multi piece construction. Done before, and this is getting repetitive.

'727 - Weight ports again, this time worded exactly the same as 143, but there might be MORE sole weights!

'201 - Basically now just combining all of the above into one and padding out the ol' patent portfolio. "We have 128 patents!... nevermind the fact that it's really just like 4 ideas reworded 32 different ways, and the original 4 are things that everyone else was already doing, but it's totally 128 patents and Bob is a super awesome philanthropist and avid golfer and his clubs are super, duper, meteorically successful!

'481 - Volume of the interior cavity. Should be thrown out for being obvious given the already set nature of iron head size.

'853 - Weights again. This time it states that the weight itself might be a different material than the rest of the club. Duh. That's kind of the point of these things. If they were the same material as the head, you wouldn't be able to effectively add much weight now would you? So you use tungsten for your heavies. And Titanium for your lights. Thrown out for being obvious as well as already having been done.


These patents are just bad, and whoever issued them should feel bad.

I am not a lawyer but I can think of prior art in every one of the patents, some of it going back to the early 80's. At least he did not sue in the patent trolls favorite court, Eastern District of Texas. There they do not care about prior art and just automatically rule for the patent trolls.

Edited by TM_HOYER, 14 September 2017 - 07:37 AM.

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#208 Babydaddy

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 08:24 AM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 September 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

I'll respond to all who quoted me here.  Of course its speculation.  I have no idea.  Maybe he has the dolphin tanks that write family guy scripts from south park writing lawsuits.  I was looking at the situation and writing what I thought might be going on.  I think I'm right (obviously) but nobody knows, including me.

The infringement claims sound like a process patent (how the foam is bonded) but could be a unique feature and not a process.  Either way, its not the club itself, but how its put together.  Am I right about the rest?  I have no idea.  I don't think its a co-incidence the PE deal closes Oct. 1 and the suit happened now.  There is no way a huge firm puts together a lawsuit this big in the little time since those irons were released IMO.  But this is just IMO.  My opinion and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.  I do think, however, that calling Parsons a "moron" and railing against PXG is kinda dumb.

Without speculation, internet message boards would be newspapers.

EDIT
Here is how it will work -

PE Firm to Adidas - We didn't have this suit when we agreed to buy TM.  We want out.  We don't' officially take over until Oct 1, and this lawsuit has open-ended liability which is a reason we can break the deal.
Adidas - Oh Crap
Adidas to PXG - What will it take to settle this stupid thing so we can close the PE deal
PXG - It'll take XYZ
Adidas - Settle the stupid thing so we can get rid of Taylormade

Tons of lawsuits get filed right before PE deals close.  Is it a co-incidence?  I have no idea.  It sure is funny timing though.
You are most certainly right- I've seen this in a much smaller scale first hand.
Sometimes, even when you have a lot of money, timing combined with litigation looming can work all sorts of magic.

From Parson's point of view this is an investment, and also a way to position his company in the market by latching onto the number one driver maker-
Parson's is a shrewd businessman- this is extremely transparent.

If it looks like a duck, and quack likes a duck...

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#209 I'd rather be golfing

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 08:30 AM

Smart move by Bob to patent his "designs" and "ideas". Where as the others did not. Seems he as every right to sue if he has it patented. I mean isn't that the whole point of getting it "patented"? So nobody else can use it.  Don't be surprised if Bob finds a different way of using sliding weights and puts a patent on it.

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#210 BirdieBob

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 08:30 AM

NICE COPY JOB TAILOR MAID

I would not have expected more from a Chinese company trying to rip-off PXG.
And to think PXG might have been worried about the Chinese doing a fake/copy of their irons..........LOL!

Edited by BirdieBob, 15 September 2017 - 08:57 AM.


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