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Giving advice....after the hole is over?


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#1 Shipwreck

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:46 PM

Player A attempts a tricky shot, whiffs the first and hits a horrid shot for the second attempt. After the hole Player B shows player A how to hit the shot (not hitting the ball, more stance and stroke practice) but does not cause unduly delay. Is this allowed?

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#2 Z1ggy16

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:13 PM

I rarely ever give advice because A) not a pro, not a teacher B) not even that great myself C) I don't really want advice from anybody else, unless that person is really legit, so I assume most others feel the same.

However, every blue moon I'll say something if that person is really truly struggling, and that I feel like they wouldn't be upset if I said something. This Sunday, a guy in my 4 some, really nice guy, but just... could not stop topping the ball. I think on one hole it took him like 6 swings to get close to the green. I just asked him if maybe he moved the ball back a touch in the stance, he'd hit ball first. He said he was already playing it in the middle.. So I said oh well that seems right, was just a thought. In reality he was probably doing a million other things wrong, but I felt compelled to try and maybe help since you could tell he was really getting down on himself.
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#3 chippa13

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:19 PM

One of the biggest reasons for topping that I've noticed, other than the ball too far forward, is trying to help the ball into the air.

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#4 Stuart G.

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:20 PM

That would be advice and against the rules.  Can only be done after the round is over.

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

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#5 Newby

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:34 PM

8-1. Advice
During a stipulated round, a player must not:give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner,

Edited by Newby, 12 September 2017 - 01:35 PM.


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#6 Shipwreck

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:35 PM

View PostStuart G., on 12 September 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

That would be advice and against the rules.  Can only be done after the round is over.

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Is that in response to me or Ziggy?
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#7 Newby

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:37 PM

You are the only one who asked a question.

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#8 Z1ggy16

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:38 PM

This was a casual round... Not a sanctioned tourney. The only rules one plays by are the ones he/she wishes to enforce. Nobody is signing my scorecard after.
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#9 Stuart G.

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:46 PM

The OP asked, in a rules forum, if it was allowed.  That's the question that was answered.  Second, he didn't say whether it was a casual round or not.

Now whether or not you want to choose to follow the rules or not when you play a casual round is a completely different issue (and very few here will really care what the answer is).   Just realize that how you choose to address that separate question may not be the same as the person you might be thinking of giving advice to.  So make sure the advice is welcome before giving it.

Edited by Stuart G., 12 September 2017 - 01:50 PM.


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#10 6Aces

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:56 PM

View PostZ1ggy16, on 12 September 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

This was a casual round... Not a sanctioned tourney. The only rules one plays by are the ones he/she wishes to enforce. Nobody is signing my scorecard after.
Out of curiosity, what other rules do you choose not to enforce?   Do you actually keep a score and if so, is it submitteded for handicap purposes?


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#11 Under2hours

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:57 PM

And another completely ridiculous ROG......  What were they on when they came up with this nonesense?????

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#12 chippa13

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:05 PM

I guess they wanted the golfer to be responsible for his performance alone. Just the course against the golfer........and his caddy, and his course book, and his notes, and his range finder................

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#13 Shipwreck

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:15 PM

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding because the advice wouldn't help Player A unless that exact same scenario came again during the round. IMO it's no different than telling someone "you're coming over the top" after they made the stroke.
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#14 LeoLeo99

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:23 PM

View PostShipwreck, on 12 September 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding because the advice wouldn't help Player A unless that exact same scenario came again during the round. IMO it's no different than telling someone "you're coming over the top" after they made the stroke.

The rules don't parse the situations out to that level of granularity.  Who's to say that exact scenario won't come up again.

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#15 Z1ggy16

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:26 PM

View Post6Aces, on 12 September 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

View PostZ1ggy16, on 12 September 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

This was a casual round... Not a sanctioned tourney. The only rules one plays by are the ones he/she wishes to enforce. Nobody is signing my scorecard after.
Out of curiosity, what other rules do you choose not to enforce?   Do you actually keep a score and if so, is it submitteded for handicap purposes?

I play casual golf on the weekends, I'm not playing in state/regional quals for the Open or something. I talk to my playing partners. I drink beer. I'm there to have fun. If a guy is struggling and not having fun, maybe I give him a tiny piece of advice. It seems that maybe this question was meant with the context that it was during an official tourney round, which case, maybe my first response does not fit. Can't be sure either way since it wasn't mentioned. I suppose this entire sub forum is under the context it's "official" play, but I don't always get that impression.

Does that answer your question?

Edited by Z1ggy16, 12 September 2017 - 02:27 PM.

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#16 Sawgrass

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:34 PM

View PostZ1ggy16, on 12 September 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

View Post6Aces, on 12 September 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

View PostZ1ggy16, on 12 September 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

This was a casual round... Not a sanctioned tourney. The only rules one plays by are the ones he/she wishes to enforce. Nobody is signing my scorecard after.
Out of curiosity, what other rules do you choose not to enforce?   Do you actually keep a score and if so, is it submitteded for handicap purposes?

I play casual golf on the weekends, I'm not playing in state/regional quals for the Open or something. I talk to my playing partners. I drink beer. I'm there to have fun. If a guy is struggling and not having fun, maybe I give him a tiny piece of advice. It seems that maybe this question was meant with the context that it was during an official tourney round, which case, maybe my first response does not fit. Can't be sure either way since it wasn't mentioned. I suppose this entire sub forum is under the context it's "official" play, but I don't always get that impression.

Does that answer your question?
Just so you know, some people play golf by the Rules all the time.  Formal tournaments or friendly matches or all by ourselves.   And, to those of us who choose to do that, we'd say we're there to have fun too.  There are no distinctions in the Rules regarding "casual" play.  It's all golf.

BTW, I drink beer too.  (Not during a round, but only because that doesn't seem to work.)

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#17 finleysg

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 07:58 PM

So let's see if I have this straight: a player asks a question in a rules forum about a situation on the golf course. Receive expert replies about what the actual ROG say about the matter. Then other readers (not the OP) moan about rule nazis and not having fun and casual rounds, etc.

It's like I've seen this movie before.
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#18 rogolf

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 08:17 PM

View Postfinleysg, on 12 September 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

So let's see if I have this straight: a player asks a question in a rules forum about a situation on the golf course. Receive expert replies about what the actual ROG say about the matter. Then other readers (not the OP) moan about rule nazis and not having fun and casual rounds, etc.

It's like I've seen this movie before.
Yes, it's rerun quite often (like Tin Cup on Golf Channel).  There are many viewers in this forum whose objective seems to be to criticize the Rules of golf and/or those who offer expert answers.  According to WRX, this is meant to be a learning site where people can obtain expert answers (and usually do), but, at times, it's a 19th hole site.  I wish the moderators would moderate.

Edited by rogolf, 12 September 2017 - 08:18 PM.


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#19 Newby

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 03:15 AM

Before I started playing golf I was warned that most members join golf clubs so they have something to moan about. Later, I found the moaners' main topic of conversation was the major facility, the state of the course.
It seems that many contributors to this golf rules forum have joined to moan about its purpose, the rules.

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#20 GMR

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:55 AM

Just a thought after reading the OP (and sorry if this should be its own thread--or already is for that matter)... on a par 3 it's obviously not allowed to ask or tell what club you hit as it constitutes giving advice.  What about after all players have played the shot, or the hole for that matter? Does it still fall under advice to have a conversation along the lines of "what did you hit back on the 6th?"


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#21 Newby

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 05:07 AM

8-1/6     Asking Opponent or Fellow-Competitor What Club He Used at Previous Hole

Q.During play of the 6th hole, A asked B what club he (B) had used on the 4th hole, which is a par-3 of a similar length. Was A in breach of Rule 8-1?
A.No.

8-1/7 After Player Has Played to Green He Asks Opponent or Fellow-Competitor What Club He Used in Playing to Green

Q.A plays his second shot which lands on the green. B does likewise. A then asks B what club he used for his second shot. Was A in breach of Rule
A.No.

Edited by Newby, 13 September 2017 - 05:08 AM.


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#22 Shipwreck

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 06:46 AM

View PostNewby, on 13 September 2017 - 05:07 AM, said:

8-1/6     Asking Opponent or Fellow-Competitor What Club He Used at Previous Hole

Q.During play of the 6th hole, A asked B what club he (B) had used on the 4th hole, which is a par-3 of a similar length. Was A in breach of Rule 8-1?
A.No.

8-1/7 After Player Has Played to Green He Asks Opponent or Fellow-Competitor What Club He Used in Playing to Green

Q.A plays his second shot which lands on the green. B does likewise. A then asks B what club he used for his second shot. Was A in breach of Rule
A.No.

That's kind of why I assumed my posted situation would fall into this category. The information provided had no bearing on his current hole since the hole was over, and while an argument could be made that now Player A has new information that might dictate a future shot during the round, how is it any different than the 2 scenarios you posted?
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#23 Under2hours

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 06:50 AM

I can still call it a ridiculous rule.

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#24 Newby

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:02 AM

View PostShipwreck, on 13 September 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

View PostNewby, on 13 September 2017 - 05:07 AM, said:

8-1/6 Asking Opponent or Fellow-Competitor What Club He Used at Previous Hole

Q.During play of the 6th hole, A asked B what club he (B) had used on the 4th hole, which is a par-3 of a similar length. Was A in breach of Rule 8-1?
A.No.

8-1/7 After Player Has Played to Green He Asks Opponent or Fellow-Competitor What Club He Used in Playing to Green

Q.A plays his second shot which lands on the green. B does likewise. A then asks B what club he used for his second shot. Was A in breach of Rule
A.No.

That's kind of why I assumed my posted situation would fall into this category. The information provided had no bearing on his current hole since the hole was over, and while an argument could be made that now Player A has new information that might dictate a future shot during the round, how is it any different than the 2 scenarios you posted?

The situations are not really the same. The two above are simply asking for information which may be useful. Your case is in effect coaching.

8-1/13     Player Giving Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Instruction During Round

Q.During a round a player tells an opponent or a fellow-competitor that he is overswinging. Is this giving advice in breach of Rule 8-1?
A.Yes.

Edited by Newby, 13 September 2017 - 07:03 AM.


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#25 Shipwreck

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:12 AM

View PostNewby, on 13 September 2017 - 07:02 AM, said:

View PostShipwreck, on 13 September 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

View PostNewby, on 13 September 2017 - 05:07 AM, said:

8-1/6     Asking Opponent or Fellow-Competitor What Club He Used at Previous Hole

Q.During play of the 6th hole, A asked B what club he (B) had used on the 4th hole, which is a par-3 of a similar length. Was A in breach of Rule 8-1?
A.No.

8-1/7 After Player Has Played to Green He Asks Opponent or Fellow-Competitor What Club He Used in Playing to Green

Q.A plays his second shot which lands on the green. B does likewise. A then asks B what club he used for his second shot. Was A in breach of Rule
A.No.

That's kind of why I assumed my posted situation would fall into this category. The information provided had no bearing on his current hole since the hole was over, and while an argument could be made that now Player A has new information that might dictate a future shot during the round, how is it any different than the 2 scenarios you posted?

The situations are not really the same. The two above are simply asking for information which may be useful. Your case is in effect coaching.

8-1/13     Player Giving Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Instruction During Round

Q.During a round a player tells an opponent or a fellow-competitor that he is overswinging. Is this giving advice in breach of Rule 8-1?
A.Yes.

Ah okay. That clarifies it then. Thanks.

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#26 finleysg

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:50 AM

This is one of those areas of the rules that, imo, only apply to competitive golf, whether that be an actually tournament or a money game between friends. It falls under the "protect the field" umbrella.

When I play with my son, who has only once broken the 100 barrier, the round is almost always a coaching round. He has no interest in his score, but like everyone, likes to get better and hit good shots. We violate this rule on every hole since I basically act as his caddie.
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#27 Newby

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:21 AM

View Postfinleysg, on 13 September 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

This is one of those areas of the rules that, imo, only apply to competitive golf, whether that be an actually tournament or a money game between friends. It falls under the "protect the field" umbrella.

When I play with my son, who has only once broken the 100 barrier, the round is almost always a coaching round. He has no interest in his score, but like everyone, likes to get better and hit good shots. We violate this rule on every hole since I basically act as his caddie.
This forum is simply about the Rules of Golf. Not what you do in private.

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#28 LeoLeo99

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:35 AM

View Postfinleysg, on 13 September 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

This is one of those areas of the rules that, imo, only apply to competitive golf, whether that be an actually tournament or a money game between friends. It falls under the "protect the field" umbrella.

When I play with my son, who has only once broken the 100 barrier, the round is almost always a coaching round. He has no interest in his score, but like everyone, likes to get better and hit good shots. We violate this rule on every hole since I basically act as his caddie.

The rules as written and the rules in practice can be a bit different.  Many people take liberties with the rules in non-tournament settings.  For example most folks would just declare a 15th club in their bag out of play in a postable round without penalty whereas this would be a penalty in a tournament.

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#29 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:52 PM

View PostNewby, on 12 September 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

8-1. Advice
During a stipulated round, a player must not:give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner,

This is kind of interesting in that many times (maybe most times for most people) when we play together, we are not in competition, not partners and nor are we competitors--- we are just simply playing against the course and playing by the rules so we can post an accurate score--- so is 8.1 even applicable?

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#30 Sawgrass

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:09 PM

View PostBlackDiamondPar5, on 13 September 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 12 September 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

8-1. Advice
During a stipulated round, a player must not:give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner,

This is kind of interesting in that many times (maybe most times for most people) when we play together, we are not in competition, not partners and nor are we competitors--- we are just simply playing against the course and playing by the rules so we can post an accurate score--- so is 8.1 even applicable?
You're correct, if you're not competing against anyone, you can't violate 8-1 a.  But you can violate 8-1b:

8-1. Advice


During a stipulated round, a player must not:


a.
give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner, or


b.
ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.


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