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Are they really that much longer


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#61 OrangeGravy

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 05:55 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 September 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

View PostBirdieBob, on 12 September 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

A lot less spin............Knuckleballs!!!

:rofl:


Lower loft with lower COG = low spin, normal launch and more distance due to less spin.

Do you hear the manufacturers claiming `less spin' distance irons!  ... No, you hear `our longest irons yet'; `a bag full of drivers', etc.

No free lunch...if you want more distance, you will get less spin.
IF you play on Stimp 5 greens...get'em.

I hit my Ping G irons enough higher than previous types of irons that the 10% or so less spin does not seem to result in any lack of green-holding ability. Playing a "distance" ball will certainly result in shots bouncing over greens but a ProV1x struck with a spring-face 7-iron is going to hold just fine even on my course's very firm-and-fast Tif-Eagle greens.

P.S. And I don't think we're talking a "lot" less spin. Probably a couple hundred rpms or so. Be careful of the "false equivalence" trap. Just because a club is better in one way than some other club is does not necessarily follow is worse in some other way. Some things are just better, with no trade-off required. Compare a ProV1 to a Titleist Tour Balata. The modern ball is better is every possible way, there's no "You can't have more X without having less Y" involved.

I'd play Balatas right now over ProV if I could get them brand new

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#62 mosesgolf

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:30 AM

View PostNoodler, on 12 September 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

View Postmosesgolf, on 12 September 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

I have a backup set of Ping G30's and had to go 5-U (Gap Wedge).  Lofts are jacked up on the Pings.  At the end of the day if you need a 150 yard club that's what you go with.  It doesn't matter if it's a Ping 9 iron or an blade 8 iron.

Actually it does matter.  All distance is not equal.  How that distance is achieved absolutely impacts the shot.
Probably for the top 1% and WRXers who think they're in the top 2%.  :D
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#63 phatchrisrules

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:26 AM

View PostNoodler, on 12 September 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

Backspin > Descent Angle when it comes to stopping power.

You see this on TrackMan, FlightScope, and Foresight.  You also see it every week on the PGA tour (or if you play with a better golfer) with lower flying shots that check and stop immediately (or back up a few feet).  Then you have the not-so-good golfer hitting a moon ball with little spin that rolls out 5 yards.

What PGA Tour are you watching?  They hit the ball INCREDIBLY high.  Higher SS = higher spin = higher peak height = steeper descent angle.  Not to mention they are also using some of the weakest lofted irons available which will also produce higher shots, iron for iron (if we ignore the loft stamp for a moment).  I also mentioned this previously, the Tour players need the most spin they can possibly get.  They have some of the fastest greens imaginable along with the thickest rough.  I would hazard a guess that most amateurs would never be able to stop a ball on the green, even if they were using a 40* 7i, they lack the technique to hit down on the ball to promote spin, and they lack the SS to generate enough green holding spin.  I shudder at thinking how many putts your average player would take per green on a typical tour set up, never mind something like the U.S. or British Open.  I don't know about you but I've never had the need to spin back a shot, I'll take a one-hopper any day of the week.  

Besides all of that, 5500 RPMs of spin with a descent angle of 45* or greater is more than adequate to hold any green you, me, or anyone on this forum would play 99/100 times.  Even downhill, downwind, because don't forget as more downhill it goes, eventually the apex is to steepen on it's descent and the ball is going to be travelling significantly more down than out leading to less spin needing it to hold.
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#64 Nessism

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:57 AM

A solid face club will have a COR value of about .78 whereas the COR limit is .83, or 5% higher.  In other words a spring face iron built at the USGA limit will impart about 5% more energy into the shot than a solid face club.  I'm not exactly sure how much distance is gained from that extra energy but it's not insignificant.

Regarding CG position, blades and small CB's typically have a LOWER CG than a larger GI club.  The GI club will have the CG set deeper into the face though, and that increases launch angle.  Also, GI clubs tend to come stock with low bend point, high launching, shafts.  That's a fitting element though and can be adjusted as needed.
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#65 augustgolf

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:11 AM

View PostNessism, on 13 September 2017 - 09:57 AM, said:

A solid face club will have a COR value of about .78 whereas the COR limit is .83, or 5% higher.  In other words a spring face iron built at the USGA limit will impart about 5% more energy into the shot than a solid face club.  I'm not exactly sure how much distance is gained from that extra energy but it's not insignificant.

Regarding CG position, blades and small CB's typically have a LOWER CG than a larger GI club.  The GI club will have the CG set deeper into the face though, and that increases launch angle.  Also, GI clubs tend to come stock with low bend point, high launching, shafts.  That's a fitting element though and can be adjusted as needed.

See this thread to discuss COR for irons

http://www.golfwrx.c...r-just-drivers/

Pings from the beginning

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or is it 1514...
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#66 Nessism

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:39 AM

View Postaugustgolf, on 13 September 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

View PostNessism, on 13 September 2017 - 09:57 AM, said:

A solid face club will have a COR value of about .78 whereas the COR limit is .83, or 5% higher.  In other words a spring face iron built at the USGA limit will impart about 5% more energy into the shot than a solid face club.  I'm not exactly sure how much distance is gained from that extra energy but it's not insignificant.

Regarding CG position, blades and small CB's typically have a LOWER CG than a larger GI club.  The GI club will have the CG set deeper into the face though, and that increases launch angle.  Also, GI clubs tend to come stock with low bend point, high launching, shafts.  That's a fitting element though and can be adjusted as needed.

See this thread to discuss COR for irons

http://www.golfwrx.c...r-just-drivers/

Thank you for posting the link.  I've seen it before and it's a worthwhile read.

Edited by Nessism, 13 September 2017 - 08:40 PM.

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Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110's
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#67 mosesgolf

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:53 AM

View PostNessism, on 13 September 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

View Postaugustgolf, on 13 September 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

View PostNessism, on 13 September 2017 - 09:57 AM, said:

A solid face club will have a COR value of about .78 whereas the COR limit is .83, or 5% higher.  In other words a spring face iron built at the USGA limit will impart about 5% more energy into the shot than a solid face club.  I'm not exactly sure how much distance is gained from that extra energy but it's not insignificant.

Regarding CG position, blades and small CB's typically have a LOWER CG than a larger GI club.  The GI club will have the CG set deeper into the face though, and that increases launch angle.  Also, GI clubs tend to come stock with low bend point, high launching, shafts.  That's a fitting element though and can be adjusted as needed.

See this thread to discuss COR for irons

http://www.golfwrx.c...r-just-drivers/

Thank you for posting the link.  I've seen is before and it's a worthwhile read.
Is .830 attainable from iron heads?
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#68 Radeon962

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:07 PM

When I played Ping G irons earlier this year I hit them about 5 yards longer in the short irons and 10 yards or so longer in the 5-7 irons.

I switched to iE1's about a month ago and while not as forgiving as the G's they still are forgiving enough and my distance control is much better.

G long irons had a tendency to come out hot from time to time when I really hit one perfect and I could never dial in the distance.  Not so much an issue with the 8-P.

I may try the G400's if I find a cheaper set this winter as I plan on cutting them down to the old i5 standard of 37.75" 5 iron.


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#69 rawdog

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:37 PM

View Postmosesgolf, on 13 September 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

View PostNessism, on 13 September 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

View Postaugustgolf, on 13 September 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

View PostNessism, on 13 September 2017 - 09:57 AM, said:

A solid face club will have a COR value of about .78 whereas the COR limit is .83, or 5% higher.  In other words a spring face iron built at the USGA limit will impart about 5% more energy into the shot than a solid face club.  I'm not exactly sure how much distance is gained from that extra energy but it's not insignificant.

Regarding CG position, blades and small CB's typically have a LOWER CG than a larger GI club.  The GI club will have the CG set deeper into the face though, and that increases launch angle.  Also, GI clubs tend to come stock with low bend point, high launching, shafts.  That's a fitting element though and can be adjusted as needed.

See this thread to discuss COR for irons

http://www.golfwrx.c...r-just-drivers/

Thank you for posting the link.  I've seen is before and it's a worthwhile read.
Is .830 attainable from iron heads?

Darn near close. See my thread for my analysis:

Isolating Effect of "Hot" COR vs. Loft Creep in Iron Ball Speed (Analysis Inside)

http://www.golfwrx.c...nalysis-inside/
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#70 FmaxTurboSi

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 04:28 PM

Yup.....lightweight shafts, spring like faces, stronger lofts, make some of these irons very very long.  My TM Rsi's were TOO HOT.  Hated the fact that the 6 iron would fly anywhere from 185-215 LOL.  But they sure are easy to get up in the air.

Just played my z565's for the first time this morning.  I can already tell they are more consistent and the gapping between distances is much much better. Not to mention they're also forgiving, feel great, and look amazing.  Which is exactly what I was looking for.

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#71 chippa13

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 10:22 PM

A 30 yard range of an iron says more about the swinger than the club.

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#72 Pepe8714

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Posted 19 September 2017 - 10:46 PM

A few thoughts:

1) the only thing that matters when hitting an iron (of any kind) is the descent angle and correlating spin. If that angle + spin gives acceptable results for your game to hold greens, that's all that matters. Not the loft, not the CG, not the number on the bottom, not the brand.

2) there is no debating that GI irons are more consistent, regardless of your skill level. Consistency can be measured directly by ball speed parameters, aka 'quality of strike'. On a blade iron, a 0.5" miss toward the toe or heel will cause a drastic drop in ball speed, while that same miss on a game improvement iron will have less of a ball speed drop. Assuming the swings are equal, ball speed rules all.

For what it's worth, I've played exclusively GI or muscle back blades the past 15 years.

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#73 phatchrisrules

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 07:22 AM

View PostPepe8714, on 19 September 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

A few thoughts:

1) the only thing that matters when hitting an iron (of any kind) is the descent angle and correlating spin. If that angle + spin gives acceptable results for your game to hold greens, that's all that matters. Not the loft, not the CG, not the number on the bottom, not the brand.

2) there is no debating that GI irons are more consistent, regardless of your skill level. Consistency can be measured directly by ball speed parameters, aka 'quality of strike'. On a blade iron, a 0.5" miss toward the toe or heel will cause a drastic drop in ball speed, while that same miss on a game improvement iron will have less of a ball speed drop. Assuming the swings are equal, ball speed rules all.

For what it's worth, I've played exclusively GI or muscle back blades the past 15 years.

And I think this is the key that a lot of people are missing.  I've been fitting people for roughly 13 years and I have never had someone become shocked or angry that they are 1) hitting the ball higher, 2) with more spin, 3) longer, 4) straighter.  All of these things, save for point 2, seem to be the knock on GI clubs.  Why wouldn't you want to play something that helps with these?  Even a good chunk of touring pros are moving to player's cavity backs because they understand that it is talent that can work a ball, not the size or design of a club.  

All of that aside, I think point 2 is a non-argument.  If you're hitting the ball higher, you don't need as much spin, and has been discussed previously, you don't need 7500 RPMs of spin to hold a green unless you're maybe playing Whistling Straits in the middle of a 2-month long heat wave and there is a tornado forming just off shore.  

As for the original question in this thread, I'll do a repost of a thread I started that resulted in me getting flamed a lot.  Basically between an M2 and iBlade 7i, at the same length with the same shaft, in the same flex, we saw roughly 4-5 yards difference in carry.  So yes, they are longer, but it's physics, it has to go further because of more ball speed.  The take-home conclusion though is that there is 5.5* difference in loft between these two clubs, so we would expect to see anywhere from 10-15 yards of difference, and we see at best half of that.  So no, super "jacked" lofts are not that much longer provided you hit the club how you are supposed to hit it.  You would still be hitting a 7i into a green with both clubs, just you would maybe have to swing a touch easier with the M2 vs. the iBlade.

Topic is here: http://www.golfwrx.c...-answer-is-yes/

Edited by phatchrisrules, 20 September 2017 - 07:23 AM.

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