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Are they really that much longer


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#1 arzee2

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 11:32 AM

While I was playing with  friend the other day I tried his Ping G 7 iron. I usually hit my 714AP2 7 iron 155 with a controlled swing. I hit the ping 180. Then I tried the 8 iron. I usually hit it 145 this went 160 into the wind.

My Ap2 irons have steelfiber i95 S and his Ping G irons had the AWT2.0 S.

I have been playing blades and then AP2 irons since I started playing again 5 or 6 years ago. I haven't hit SGI or GI clubs in over a decade. Are they all that long?


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#2 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 11:34 AM

It's not uncommon for SGI lofts to be two clubs stronger in the long irons. 7s become 5s.

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#3 Golf64

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 11:59 AM

Cranked lofts, shaft lengths and springy faces. That is why your buddy's irons are going farther. Always check the specs. a club. ;)
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#4 Pigems

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:06 PM

Welcome to the wonderful world of Jacking Loft ;)
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#5 BenHoganSlam1953

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:08 PM

Assuming the shaft lengths are stock: Ping G 7i is 37" and 30.5 degrees - versus - 714 AP2 7i at 37" and 34 degrees ... so almost one club in loft, however, if his G series are "Power Spec" lofts they are 29 degrees ... more than a club difference

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#6 BenjaminP

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:41 PM

Even at the same lofts.....the face is designed for distance. New distance focused irons are ridiculous. You stand very little chance of developing touch or accuracy with those things.

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#7 North Butte

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:53 PM

The 4 degrees or so of loft difference alone is probably worth, what, maybe 12-15 yards with your swing? It's the loft of your next longer iron.

And the high-COR face is nothing to sneeze at. It can add 1-2mph of ball speed while also knocking off a few hundred rpm of spin.

One of my occasional playing companions has a clubhead speed like yours or a bit higher. When he went from Mizuno MP-style irons to the Hot Metals (spring face, similar to Ping G), the combination of extra ball speed and lower spin created an enormous jump in distance for him. About what you're seeing. I think the hot face effect is very real and it's on top of the stronger-loft effect.

Even at my much lower clubhead speed the Ping G mid-irons are several yards longe (compared to my old G20) and the lower spin does keep them from upshooting in the wind.
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#8 phatchrisrules

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:55 PM

 BenjaminP, on 12 September 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Even at the same lofts.....the face is designed for distance. New distance focused irons are ridiculous. You stand very little chance of developing touch or accuracy with those things.

Yup!  The new generation is screwed.  They should all play tiny cbs or mbs just like Hogan and Arnie and Jack did.  That'll really separate the men from the boys...

In all seriousness though, you can play just as badly with a distance iron like a Ping G as you can with a small, finesse-style club like an AP2.  As much as we like to pretend it isn't the case, a bad golf swing is still a freaking bad golf swing.  I would much rather hit my "distance focused" iron for a bad strike because I know I am still probably going to be within chipping range than pulling out a razor thin club and having myself a full wedge back in if I don't hit it perfectly square.

I don't want this to turn into a blades vs. GI rant fest, but there is a little bit more going on behind the scenes than meets the eye.  Do hundreds of fittings as I have, or Tom Wishon has (probably millions for him), or any guy at Club Champion has or a tech rep has and you'll quickly understand that there are certain people who should never ever ever touch a tour-calibre club.  They are a by product of their time.  Sure EVERYONE played them 30-40 years ago because that's all their was, because not everyone could afford Pings or Tommy Armours, aka your high end clubs.  That doesn't mean just because technology has advanced and has allowed the average player to play clubs that will make their lives easier that we should all regress back because "you can't learn control without it"...that is a pile of BS if I've ever read it.  Talent is talent and everything else is learned behaviour.  Even then the person who has to learn it is going to be beat by the person who has natural all the time if they put in similar amounts of work.
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#9 Z1ggy16

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:00 PM

In short, yes... But it's mainly due to lower launch angle and spin. If you hit a 34* G iron and a 34* AP2 iron at the exact same speed, with the same ball, same shaft... same everything... the G iron might go 2-3 yards further in carry.
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#10 BirdieBob

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:07 PM

A lot less spin............Knuckleballs!!!

:rofl:


Lower loft with lower COG = low spin, normal launch and more distance due to less spin.

Do you hear the manufacturers claiming `less spin' distance irons!  ... No, you hear `our longest irons yet'; `a bag full of drivers', etc.

No free lunch...if you want more distance, you will get less spin.
IF you play on Stimp 5 greens...get'em.

Edited by BirdieBob, 12 September 2017 - 01:12 PM.

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#11 North Butte

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:13 PM

 Z1ggy16, on 12 September 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

In short, yes... But it's mainly due to lower launch angle and spin. If you hit a 34* G iron and a 34* AP2 iron at the exact same speed, with the same ball, same shaft... same everything... the G iron might go 2-3 yards further in carry.

I've not noticed that in my own comparisons. Over the years I've played everything from Titleist DCI Black to Titleist DCI Oversize to Titleist DCI 990 to Callaway X-Forged irons. Then 5-6 years ago switched to Ping G20 and later G30 irons, still with the regular thick faces. In all that time I have hardly ever noticed any significant difference in how far I'll hit a 48-degree club (no matter what type) or a 27-degree club (any type). The loft almost entirely determines the distance my shots fly.

That changed with the Ping G (hot face) irons. The 8-iron is 35 degrees of loft and I genuinely hit the ball 4-5 yards longer than any of the dozen other types of (non hot face) irons I've ever owned at the same loft. Not only 4-5 yards longer but on a noticeably higher trajectory, not lower.

For me the G 6-iron through 9-iron at any given loft (and lord knows my clubhead speed has not improved) are the highest-launching, longest-flying and least affected by wind of any club. Immediately noticeable, significant difference.

Now does a little higher and longer with a bit less spin actually save me multiple strokes per round? Of course not. As a previous poster pointed out a bad swing will be a bad swing regardless. And a pulled or pushed shot just flies a few yards farther in the wrong direction! But it's an obvious difference that can't be denied as a difference per se.
A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

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#12 North Butte

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:15 PM

 BirdieBob, on 12 September 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

A lot less spin............Knuckleballs!!!

:rofl:


Lower loft with lower COG = low spin, normal launch and more distance due to less spin.

Do you hear the manufacturers claiming `less spin' distance irons!  ... No, you hear `our longest irons yet'; `a bag full of drivers', etc.

No free lunch...if you want more distance, you will get less spin.
IF you play on Stimp 5 greens...get'em.

I hit my Ping G irons enough higher than previous types of irons that the 10% or so less spin does not seem to result in any lack of green-holding ability. Playing a "distance" ball will certainly result in shots bouncing over greens but a ProV1x struck with a spring-face 7-iron is going to hold just fine even on my course's very firm-and-fast Tif-Eagle greens.

P.S. And I don't think we're talking a "lot" less spin. Probably a couple hundred rpms or so. Be careful of the "false equivalence" trap. Just because a club is better in one way than some other club is does not necessarily follow is worse in some other way. Some things are just better, with no trade-off required. Compare a ProV1 to a Titleist Tour Balata. The modern ball is better is every possible way, there's no "You can't have more X without having less Y" involved.

Edited by North Butte, 12 September 2017 - 01:17 PM.

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#13 Z1ggy16

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:27 PM

 North Butte, on 12 September 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

 Z1ggy16, on 12 September 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

In short, yes... But it's mainly due to lower launch angle and spin. If you hit a 34* G iron and a 34* AP2 iron at the exact same speed, with the same ball, same shaft... same everything... the G iron might go 2-3 yards further in carry.

I've not noticed that in my own comparisons. Over the years I've played everything from Titleist DCI Black to Titleist DCI Oversize to Titleist DCI 990 to Callaway X-Forged irons. Then 5-6 years ago switched to Ping G20 and later G30 irons, still with the regular thick faces. In all that time I have hardly ever noticed any significant difference in how far I'll hit a 48-degree club (no matter what type) or a 27-degree club (any type). The loft almost entirely determines the distance my shots fly.

That changed with the Ping G (hot face) irons. The 8-iron is 35 degrees of loft and I genuinely hit the ball 4-5 yards longer than any of the dozen other types of (non hot face) irons I've ever owned at the same loft. Not only 4-5 yards longer but on a noticeably higher trajectory, not lower.

For me the G 6-iron through 9-iron at any given loft (and lord knows my clubhead speed has not improved) are the highest-launching, longest-flying and least affected by wind of any club. Immediately noticeable, significant difference.

Now does a little higher and longer with a bit less spin actually save me multiple strokes per round? Of course not. As a previous poster pointed out a bad swing will be a bad swing regardless. And a pulled or pushed shot just flies a few yards farther in the wrong direction! But it's an obvious difference that can't be denied as a difference per se.
Well, they say 1mph ball speed = roughly 3yard more carry. So just from having a slightly higher COR, all else equal it's certainly possible to have one club's 35* club go further than another 35* club, esp cast vs forged.

I've never liked high COR irons. My current irons are what I consider to be "predictable" in that I rarely get a flyer, even though they are cast GI clubs. I could go into PGATSS and hit Steelheads for 30 shots, and my range from highest to lowest carry (on well struck balls) might be 8-10 yards. That's fine for a 5 or 6i, but for something I'm hitting into greens... that's not really acceptable for me personally. So where that "hot" iron might net me a few extra yards, my range of carry is almost to the point where I'm not actually sure how far the ball is really going to go. I know that's not really the point of this particular topic, but I think it's worth noting here because people should be aware what they are spending their money on when it comes to these types clubs.

I know GI's are there to help the everyday golfer score lower, but I played player's clubs all this season up until I went back to my GI's and I didn't suddenly start playing worse because I got a "less forgiving" iron. I think that GI clubs help up to a certain point, and then they may actually hinder you, or at least stall progress due to this unpredictability factor. My Mp-54 7i went about 157-160 carry on a well struck ball, every single time. My old Hot Metals, every now and then I'd hit a ball what seemed like a regular strike.... and my ball is over the green for no reason. Can't expect to lower scores when that happens once you are probably looking to get under a 15 index.

Edited by Z1ggy16, 12 September 2017 - 01:31 PM.

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#14 BirdieBob

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:40 PM

 North Butte, on 12 September 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

 BirdieBob, on 12 September 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

A lot less spin............Knuckleballs!!!

:rofl:


Lower loft with lower COG = low spin, normal launch and more distance due to less spin.

Do you hear the manufacturers claiming `less spin' distance irons!  ... No, you hear `our longest irons yet'; `a bag full of drivers', etc.

No free lunch...if you want more distance, you will get less spin.
IF you play on Stimp 5 greens...get'em.

I hit my Ping G irons enough higher than previous types of irons that the 10% or so less spin does not seem to result in any lack of green-holding ability. Playing a "distance" ball will certainly result in shots bouncing over greens but a ProV1x struck with a spring-face 7-iron is going to hold just fine even on my course's very firm-and-fast Tif-Eagle greens.

P.S. And I don't think we're talking a "lot" less spin. Probably a couple hundred rpms or so. Be careful of the "false equivalence" trap. Just because a club is better in one way than some other club is does not necessarily follow is worse in some other way. Some things are just better, with no trade-off required. Compare a ProV1 to a Titleist Tour Balata. The modern ball is better is every possible way, there's no "You can't have more X without having less Y" involved.


Here is the results of the Ping G4 vs the G400 by the same person:
The G400 is a little longer with about 10% less spin...no big deal!

G4 vs G400.jpg



Now, lets look at a standard high spin iron the PXG 0311T 7 iron by the same person:

Notice the spin?  That's right 7300 vs 5900 (that is 24% less) and 170 yards (with less swing speed), so 14 yards less.
That is what I am referring  to about low spin.

I will take it that the 7 iron that I spun back into the cup for a hole-in-one (actual shot) will not do so with the low spin distance iron.

PXG T 7 data.jpg

Edited by BirdieBob, 12 September 2017 - 01:41 PM.

PXG 0811X 9* Driver, Limited Edition 2016 Basileus AAA, 60X
PXG 0341X 15* 3 wood, Basileus Leggero, 75X
PXG 0341X 18* 5 wood, GD Tour AD BB, 8X
PXG 0317X 19* Hybrid, HZRDUS Black, 6.0
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#15 chippa13

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:44 PM

Depending on the ball being played, the low spin 7 iron should stop relatively close to where it lands. Spinning back a 7 iron is a neat trick but not really something one should be doing.


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#16 North Butte

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:45 PM

There are some loft differences baked into those spin and distance numbers. But only a couple degrees here or there.
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#17 Z1ggy16

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:50 PM

Regarding post #14:

That ball speed difference alone is going to account for a majority of that 14yard of carry, let alone the spin (which is due to the lower loft).

Flight Scope predictions:

130mph ball speed, 17* launch, 5900 spin = 193yards
124mph ball speed, 17.6* launch, 7200 spin = 178 yards

130mph ball speed, 17* launch, 7200 spin = 188 yards

So as you see, comparing apples to apples only changing spin (.6* launch is pretty much negligible), it only accounts for a 5 yard total, whereas the ballspeed change has a massive change on distance. Since this guy swung the players club 4mph slower on average, those numbers aren't a great apples to apples comparison. If he could have generated 130mph ball speed from the PXG club, you're talking maybe a 5-6 yard gap in carry, which as I've shown is 100% caused by the loft.

So my point is here... Yes the COR on these new irons is higher, okay... but if you look at the efficiency from the above post it's not really that much (in fact, it's less).. Pretty much to the point where it's negligible. This whole thing where people are claiming their irons, or their buddies GI/SGI irons are 2 clubs longer than the players irons are just eating up what the OEM's are feeding them. Take a look at real hard data and you will see that loft for loft, these clubs are only marginally longer than anything else out there.

Edited by Z1ggy16, 12 September 2017 - 02:03 PM.

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#18 BirdieBob

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:54 PM

 Z1ggy16, on 12 September 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

Regarding post #14:

That ball speed difference alone is going to account for a majority of that 14yard of carry, let alone the spin (which is due to the lower loft).


I really doubt that 0.9 mph ball speed will account for 14 more yards.
Yes, the lower spin in the G400 is the reason for the distance....that is the point.
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#19 Night train

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:55 PM

Select the Ping iron for a 170 yard shot and there will be adequate spin to stop the ball. I've had no issues with "hot shots" flying too far........or being unable to hold greens with my Ping G irons.

Edited by Night train, 12 September 2017 - 01:56 PM.


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#20 BirdieBob

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:57 PM

 North Butte, on 12 September 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

There are some loft differences baked into those spin and distance numbers. But only a couple degrees here or there.


The lofts are certainly different, but that is in order to obtain the same peak heights which are very close.
G400 loft is 30* and the PXG loft is 32* both have close to the same peak height for 7 irons.

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#21 North Butte

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:58 PM

View PostNight train, on 12 September 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

Select the Ping iron for a 170 yard shot and there will be adequate spin to stop the ball. I've had no issues with "hot shots" flying too far........or being unable to hold greens with my Ping G irons.

That's a good point. If you're facing a 170-yard shot you want a club that will get there and will hold the green. You're not really concerned with some other club that you'd be using on a 180-yard shot.
A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

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#22 hunter42

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:03 PM

View PostBenjaminP, on 12 September 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Even at the same lofts.....the face is designed for distance. New distance focused irons are ridiculous. You stand very little chance of developing touch or accuracy with those things.

Weird...I better send my G400's back because I've hit a lot of greens with them.  Must be something wrong with them.  Thanks for the heads up.
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#23 North Butte

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:05 PM

View Posthunter42, on 12 September 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

View PostBenjaminP, on 12 September 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Even at the same lofts.....the face is designed for distance. New distance focused irons are ridiculous. You stand very little chance of developing touch or accuracy with those things.

Weird...I better send my G400's back because I've hit a lot of greens with them.  Must be something wrong with them.  Thanks for the heads up.

Kind of like the argument against laser rangefinders. If you keep lasering your distances, you'll never get good at guessing distances without using the laser. OK, I think I can live with that.

So if I keep using my G irons I'll never get any good at hitting greens with, what, maybe Titleist MB blades? Yep, I'm good with that.
A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

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#24 chippa13

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:07 PM

View Posthunter42, on 12 September 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

View PostBenjaminP, on 12 September 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Even at the same lofts.....the face is designed for distance. New distance focused irons are ridiculous. You stand very little chance of developing touch or accuracy with those things.

Weird...I better send my G400's back because I've hit a lot of greens with them.  Must be something wrong with them.  Thanks for the heads up.

Those clubs should be consistently flying over greens and never stopping on them. Clearly your's are defective.

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#25 North Butte

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:10 PM

View Postchippa13, on 12 September 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

View Posthunter42, on 12 September 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

View PostBenjaminP, on 12 September 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Even at the same lofts.....the face is designed for distance. New distance focused irons are ridiculous. You stand very little chance of developing touch or accuracy with those things.

Weird...I better send my G400's back because I've hit a lot of greens with them.  Must be something wrong with them.  Thanks for the heads up.

Those clubs should be consistently flying over greens and never stopping on them. Clearly your's are defective.

Somehow we need to combine this thread with the "amateurs never take enough club" threads. They could kind of cancel out!

A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

--Plato

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#26 ldchristopher

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:13 PM

Are they really that much longer? No. Are the lofts jacked to comically low degrees? Yes. Will being able to say you hit a PW as far as you used to hit your 8 iron improve your score if the lofts in the new clubs are insane? Probably not. Will it improve your confidence? Maybe.
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#27 hunter42

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:22 PM

No matter what the lofts are, if you put in the time to learn your yardages with each club, any club will work for you.  It makes no sense to say that one club makes you better than another.  If you can hit the ball 150 with a 7i or a 9i knowing that is most of the battle.  This elitist attitude that SGI clubs make you worse is ludicrous.  I have seen first hand many very good amateur golfers playing G irons and the like.  The golf ball doesn't know what you are hitting it with and with a good to great swing, you will get the ball in the hole just fine.  My G irons launch high and land soft.  So what...I'm supposed to feel bad that i can get the ball in the hole with them because they aren't acceptable to some.  Gimme a break.
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#28 Night train

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:33 PM

Ping's motto is "play your best"..........they give you several different types of irons to pick from. The i-blade and i-200 are widely used by some of the best players in the world. The G series are wonderful for people who don't have high swing speeds, don't get to practice much, and play far less than they would like..........they help a lot of people have FUN

I used to play pretty well and still have a nice assortment of vintage persimmon drivers, Wilson Staff, ,MacGregor, and Mizuno blades........but these days at age 64 with two bionic knees..........Ping G series help me play my best

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#29 ruffellprefley

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:13 PM

why do people keep insisting on comparing spin numbers between one set's 7 iron and another set's 7 iron when their lofts are so different?  check out the equivalent loft and compare spin numbers. the G400s of the world don't seem so low spin if you compare in the right way. additionally, they're generally higher launch, so you don't need as much spin to hold a green.

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#30 North Butte

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:16 PM

View Postruffellprefley, on 12 September 2017 - 03:13 PM, said:

why do people keep insisting on comparing spin numbers between one set's 7 iron and another set's 7 iron when their lofts are so different?  check out the equivalent loft and compare spin numbers. the G400s of the world don't seem so low spin if you compare in the right way. additionally, they're generally higher launch, so you don't need as much spin to hold a green.

I mentioned earlier, it's the false equivalence thing. Some people fundamentally believe that anything good automatically has a downside to it. If a type of irons hit the ball higher and/or longer and/or straighter than surely you must have to give up control or spin or consistency or SOMETHING in return.

In many cases, that is not true at all.

A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

--Plato

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