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Shawn Clement closing the face 45degrees


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#1 80sFredriksson

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 05:49 AM

So Clement advocates that the face is closed 45 degrees at setup, does this make any sense, do any pros do this?
Wouldn't this require sick amounts of shaft lean to square it or put some twist in basically hitting with left forearm 45 degrees rotated?


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#2 rcb1586

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 06:37 AM

He kind of touches on the relationship to the pros at about 5:20 of this video.
https://www.youtube....h?v=ExCrpJhcyAw

He says that a lot of pros play with a strong grip which if you rotate to a neutral position at setup would result in a closed face address.
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#3 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 08:57 AM

When I first started playing, I had a very neutral grip. All my shots would go about 30 straight right, causing me to have to aim to the left. This produced a soft lob that never went very far. One day, I got the bright idea to lineup straight, aim my clubface 30 left, take my normal grip and make my normal swing. The ball went dead straight, and the faster I swung, the further the ball would go. Eventually, this led to me switching to a very strong left hand grip and aiming straight (right hand was still pretty neutral.

My left hand, obviously, doesn't face the target. Instead, it goes from almost being parallel to past parallel to the target line. I hit the ball "dead straight" (I think it's a 2yd. draw, but what do I know?) with this grip. There's no rotation of my left arm in the backswing and none in the forward swing until well after the ball's hit.

Trying to go back to a neutral grip in the past couple of years has caused me all kinds of issues, specifically hooking and hitting it fat. After much frustration in seeking a more 'normal' game, I've decided 'screw it' and am getting back to my strong grip. It's been hard. There are things I used to do that I didn't know I did that I don't do now. It'll be going along greatly and, all of a sudden, a shank appears out of nowhere. I suspect my hand path may have been more to the Left previously, and fixing that seems to have eliminated the shank.

Edited by Petunia Sprinkle, 08 September 2017 - 08:58 AM.


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#4 TLUBulldogGolf

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 09:22 AM

It doesn't make any sense to me but I fight a hook if anything. The more neutral my grip feels the better I tend to hit it. And if you are over the top I would think a closed face is going to lead to some massive pulls.
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#5 Zurb

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 10:04 AM

Mike Milaska has a good video about grip - it changed how I view a weak/neutral/strong grip. The grip is personal thing. i have a grip that 20 years ago would be strong and wrong. Now it's more of what was mentioned that we see on tour as "normal".

https://www.youtube....h?v=OqcLpiD-Yqk


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#6 larrybud

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 10:17 AM

View Post80sFredriksson, on 08 September 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

So Clement advocates that the face is closed 45 degrees at setup, does this make any sense, do any pros do this?
Wouldn't this require sick amounts of shaft lean to square it or put some twist in basically hitting with left forearm 45 degrees rotated?

Closed 45 degrees relative to what?

If you're talking about the face in relation to the back of your left hand, I could see that, but that seems like an arbitrary point of measurement.

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#7 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 10:22 AM

View Postlarrybud, on 08 September 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View Post80sFredriksson, on 08 September 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

So Clement advocates that the face is closed 45 degrees at setup, does this make any sense, do any pros do this?
Wouldn't this require sick amounts of shaft lean to square it or put some twist in basically hitting with left forearm 45 degrees rotated?

Closed 45 degrees relative to what?

If you're talking about the face in relation to the back of your left hand, I could see that, but that seems like an arbitrary point of measurement.

Relative to neutral.

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#8 80sFredriksson

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 10:52 AM

View Postrcb1586, on 08 September 2017 - 06:37 AM, said:

He kind of touches on the relationship to the pros at about 5:20 of this video.
https://www.youtube....h?v=ExCrpJhcyAw

He says that a lot of pros play with a strong grip which if you rotate to a neutral position at setup would result in a closed face address.

Hi thanks for the reply, ok this makes a bit more sense so basically he is saying use a super strong grip, see 4 knuckles on left hand?

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#9 80sFredriksson

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 10:57 AM

View Postlarrybud, on 08 September 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View Post80sFredriksson, on 08 September 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

So Clement advocates that the face is closed 45 degrees at setup, does this make any sense, do any pros do this?
Wouldn't this require sick amounts of shaft lean to square it or put some twist in basically hitting with left forearm 45 degrees rotated?

Closed 45 degrees relative to what?

If you're talking about the face in relation to the back of your left hand, I could see that, but that seems like an arbitrary point of measurement.

To target line I assume, check out his latest vid on lag



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#10 Tro

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 11:02 AM

This is quite interesting to me, because lately, I've been doing this exact thing.

I noticed, in my slow mo videos from down the line, that my club face was slightly open compared to vertical or slightly closed by P6.  So as an experiment, I took a stronger grip at setup --> this to me looks 45 degrees closed when I let my wrists hang (at what feels neutral to me).  I suddenly felt like I could swing the club more freely and get more shaft lean at impact,  The other benefit, is that if you shallow the shaft in transition, you will avoid hitting the ball straight right - which is the way you're supposed to swing anyway.

As someone mentioned - if you get over the top, you will get massive pulls.  But this is a valuable feedback mechanism for me.  It immediately tells me that my swing was wrong and that I "pulled" to hard from the top.


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#11 birdieblair

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 12:37 PM

This is interesting to me as well. I went to lesson a while back and the only thing we worked on was making more grip more neutral, and since then when I do my slow mo practice swings I do notice that the face seems really open as I am coming into the ball, and at set up I have developed a flinch move where I am closing the club face. Maybe this will help both...maybe not.

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#12 TTGolf77

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 12:47 PM

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 08 September 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

When I first started playing, I had a very neutral grip. All my shots would go about 30° straight right, causing me to have to aim to the left. This produced a soft lob that never went very far. One day, I got the bright idea to lineup straight, aim my clubface 30° left, take my normal grip and make my normal swing. The ball went dead straight, and the faster I swung, the further the ball would go. Eventually, this led to me switching to a very strong left hand grip and aiming straight (right hand was still pretty neutral.

My left hand, obviously, doesn't face the target. Instead, it goes from almost being parallel to past parallel to the target line. I hit the ball "dead straight" (I think it's a 2yd. draw, but what do I know?) with this grip. There's no rotation of my left arm in the backswing and none in the forward swing until well after the ball's hit.

Trying to go back to a neutral grip in the past couple of years has caused me all kinds of issues, specifically hooking and hitting it fat. After much frustration in seeking a more 'normal' game, I've decided 'screw it' and am getting back to my strong grip. It's been hard. There are things I used to do that I didn't know I did that I don't do now. It'll be going along greatly and, all of a sudden, a shank appears out of nowhere. I suspect my hand path may have been more to the Left previously, and fixing that seems to have eliminated the shank.

If your left forearm really isn't rotating at all, wouldn't the ball start 30 degrees left? This tip just seems like a bandaid for people who get over rotated and under the plane in the takeaway.

Edited by TTGolf77, 08 September 2017 - 12:47 PM.


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#13 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 01:00 PM

View PostTTGolf77, on 08 September 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 08 September 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

When I first started playing, I had a very neutral grip. All my shots would go about 30 straight right, causing me to have to aim to the left. This produced a soft lob that never went very far. One day, I got the bright idea to lineup straight, aim my clubface 30 left, take my normal grip and make my normal swing. The ball went dead straight, and the faster I swung, the further the ball would go. Eventually, this led to me switching to a very strong left hand grip and aiming straight (right hand was still pretty neutral.

My left hand, obviously, doesn't face the target. Instead, it goes from almost being parallel to past parallel to the target line. I hit the ball "dead straight" (I think it's a 2yd. draw, but what do I know?) with this grip. There's no rotation of my left arm in the backswing and none in the forward swing until well after the ball's hit.

Trying to go back to a neutral grip in the past couple of years has caused me all kinds of issues, specifically hooking and hitting it fat. After much frustration in seeking a more 'normal' game, I've decided 'screw it' and am getting back to my strong grip. It's been hard. There are things I used to do that I didn't know I did that I don't do now. It'll be going along greatly and, all of a sudden, a shank appears out of nowhere. I suspect my hand path may have been more to the Left previously, and fixing that seems to have eliminated the shank.

If your left forearm really isn't rotating at all, wouldn't the ball start 30 degrees left? This tip just seems like a bandaid for people who get over rotated and under the plane in the takeaway.

Why would the ball start 30 left?

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#14 TTGolf77

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 01:04 PM

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 08 September 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

View PostTTGolf77, on 08 September 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 08 September 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

When I first started playing, I had a very neutral grip. All my shots would go about 30° straight right, causing me to have to aim to the left. This produced a soft lob that never went very far. One day, I got the bright idea to lineup straight, aim my clubface 30° left, take my normal grip and make my normal swing. The ball went dead straight, and the faster I swung, the further the ball would go. Eventually, this led to me switching to a very strong left hand grip and aiming straight (right hand was still pretty neutral.

My left hand, obviously, doesn't face the target. Instead, it goes from almost being parallel to past parallel to the target line. I hit the ball "dead straight" (I think it's a 2yd. draw, but what do I know?) with this grip. There's no rotation of my left arm in the backswing and none in the forward swing until well after the ball's hit.

Trying to go back to a neutral grip in the past couple of years has caused me all kinds of issues, specifically hooking and hitting it fat. After much frustration in seeking a more 'normal' game, I've decided 'screw it' and am getting back to my strong grip. It's been hard. There are things I used to do that I didn't know I did that I don't do now. It'll be going along greatly and, all of a sudden, a shank appears out of nowhere. I suspect my hand path may have been more to the Left previously, and fixing that seems to have eliminated the shank.

If your left forearm really isn't rotating at all, wouldn't the ball start 30 degrees left? This tip just seems like a bandaid for people who get over rotated and under the plane in the takeaway.

Why would the ball start 30° left?

Because you are aimed 30 degrees left at address. What would make the face become neutral at impact besides left forearm rotation?

Edit: I misread your post and thought you were still doing the aiming left thing like the tip says but now I realize you just made your grip stronger.

Edited by TTGolf77, 08 September 2017 - 01:07 PM.


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#15 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 01:19 PM

Problem solved.


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#16 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 01:56 PM

I'm no doctor of Anatomy, but I DO stay at a lot of Holiday Inn Expresses throughout the year......

And I play a strong grip. I mean "the back of my left hand is 60* off the target line at address" strong grip. The OP is just describing where the clubface would point if you place your left hand in a neutral position when holding the club with a strong grip. I have played golf for over 40 yrs. started WAY before launch monitors and high speed cameras in your phone. The only way you could diagnose your swing back then was by feel and watching the ball. I started the game with a neutral grip like all the rest and sliced the ball off the planet. I knew from baseball that hand rotation added power, so I just started really rolling my hands through impact. The ball flight straightened up, but my consistency suffered from day to day because rolling my hands through impact was a conscious effort and hard to repeat from day to day. After much frustration, I decided there must be a better way. I started paying close attention to my hands when I would swing my arm and found that turning my left hand to the right on the grip allowed me to hit the ball straighter without having to consciously roll my hands. Long story short, when I found the ideal left hand position, things got instantly better. But then, I had to find the proper right hand position.

I found that having the right hand to much on top of the shaft was uncomfortable in the follow-through and having it too far under the shaft caused over-rotation (hooks) with my normal swing.Right hand slightly turned right of neutral seemed to be the best location. At first it was not comfortable at address and it took a long time to make it automatic. But once I got used to it, it worked like a charm. I could go at the ball as hard as I wanted and never worry about loosing it right.

Since then I have met many people who benefited from a grip like mine. However, I have also met many who did not. I believe it's all about swing tendencies and personal anatomy. Some peoples bodies just work different than others. It's plain as day on the PGA Tour. Grips vary drastically from player to player, but they ALL know what grip THEY need to hit the ball with control. one things for sure though, if you tend to lose the ball either left or right consistently, the grip is a good place to start.

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#17 robbohank

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 02:02 PM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 08 September 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

I'm no doctor of Anatomy, but I DO stay at a lot of Holiday Inn Expresses throughout the year......

And I play a strong grip. I mean "the back of my left hand is 60* off the target line at address" strong grip. The OP is just describing where the clubface would point if you place your left hand in a neutral position when holding the club with a strong grip. I have played golf for over 40 yrs. started WAY before launch monitors and high speed cameras in your phone. The only way you could diagnose your swing back then was by feel and watching the ball. I started the game with a neutral grip like all the rest and sliced the ball off the planet. I knew from baseball that hand rotation added power, so I just started really rolling my hands through impact. The ball flight straightened up, but my consistency suffered from day to day because rolling my hands through impact was a conscious effort and hard to repeat from day to day. After much frustration, I decided there must be a better way. I started paying close attention to my hands when I would swing my arm and found that turning my left hand to the right on the grip allowed me to hit the ball straighter without having to consciously roll my hands. Long story short, when I found the ideal left hand position, things got instantly better. But then, I had to find the proper right hand position.

I found that having the right hand to much on top of the shaft was uncomfortable in the follow-through and having it too far under the shaft caused over-rotation (hooks) with my normal swing.Right hand slightly turned right of neutral seemed to be the best location. At first it was not comfortable at address and it took a long time to make it automatic. But once I got used to it, it worked like a charm. I could go at the ball as hard as I wanted and never worry about loosing it right.

Since then I have met many people who benefited from a grip like mine. However, I have also met many who did not. I believe it's all about swing tendencies and personal anatomy. Some peoples bodies just work different than others. It's plain as day on the PGA Tour. Grips vary drastically from player to player, but they ALL know what grip THEY need to hit the ball with control. one things for sure though, if you tend to lose the ball either left or right consistently, the grip is a good place to start.

BT

RI - does your grip match up at all with the natural hanging of your hands?  I know Malaska (and others) like to use that as a guide. I tend to be very neutral with my grip and have strengthened my LH slightly based on this. Seems to have eliminated some of my pushes.

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#18 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 02:22 PM

View Postrobbohank, on 08 September 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

View PostRi_Redneck, on 08 September 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

I'm no doctor of Anatomy, but I DO stay at a lot of Holiday Inn Expresses throughout the year......

And I play a strong grip. I mean "the back of my left hand is 60* off the target line at address" strong grip. The OP is just describing where the clubface would point if you place your left hand in a neutral position when holding the club with a strong grip. I have played golf for over 40 yrs. started WAY before launch monitors and high speed cameras in your phone. The only way you could diagnose your swing back then was by feel and watching the ball. I started the game with a neutral grip like all the rest and sliced the ball off the planet. I knew from baseball that hand rotation added power, so I just started really rolling my hands through impact. The ball flight straightened up, but my consistency suffered from day to day because rolling my hands through impact was a conscious effort and hard to repeat from day to day. After much frustration, I decided there must be a better way. I started paying close attention to my hands when I would swing my arm and found that turning my left hand to the right on the grip allowed me to hit the ball straighter without having to consciously roll my hands. Long story short, when I found the ideal left hand position, things got instantly better. But then, I had to find the proper right hand position.

I found that having the right hand to much on top of the shaft was uncomfortable in the follow-through and having it too far under the shaft caused over-rotation (hooks) with my normal swing.Right hand slightly turned right of neutral seemed to be the best location. At first it was not comfortable at address and it took a long time to make it automatic. But once I got used to it, it worked like a charm. I could go at the ball as hard as I wanted and never worry about loosing it right.

Since then I have met many people who benefited from a grip like mine. However, I have also met many who did not. I believe it's all about swing tendencies and personal anatomy. Some peoples bodies just work different than others. It's plain as day on the PGA Tour. Grips vary drastically from player to player, but they ALL know what grip THEY need to hit the ball with control. one things for sure though, if you tend to lose the ball either left or right consistently, the grip is a good place to start.

BT

RI - does your grip match up at all with the natural hanging of your hands?  I know Malaska (and others) like to use that as a guide. I tend to be very neutral with my grip and have strengthened my LH slightly based on this. Seems to have eliminated some of my pushes.

Yes it does (I have been beat up before for mentioning it as significant). It's something I noticed in the Bobby Jones vids from the '30s (I have the entire DVD set). I noticed during his talking points that his arms/hands hung very similar to how he gripped the club. I did it way before I knew those vids existed, but when I saw it, a light went off in my head. One of those "Holy Sh*t!!" moments.

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#19 Oknows

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 02:46 PM

I'm pretty sure that incorporating a strong grip with my left hand has been the root cause of some elbow pain.  I am planning on going back to a more neutral grip and trying some other methods for closing the face to see if it helps.

Edited by Oknows, 08 September 2017 - 02:51 PM.

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#20 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 02:59 PM

View PostOknows, on 08 September 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that incorporating a strong grip with my left hand has been the root cause of some elbow pain.  I am planning on going back to a more neutral grip and trying some other methods for closing the face to see if it helps.

If your grip is strong enough, I think, because of the way the elbow joint is then facing, your left arm is more likely to bend somewhere in the backswing. If it then straightens completely at impact, it can be rough on the elbow, especially if your swing gets steeper because you bent your elbow, and particularly, if you swing like a savage beast.


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#21 oikos1

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 09:05 PM

45 degrees closed at set up?  Good luck.

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#22 dimitrib

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 12:00 AM

I took one lesson from him and he went on this topic. Basically he states that when you hold the club in the air with a straight club face and set it down it is really closed or slightly closed.

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#23 larrybud

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 05:33 AM

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 08 September 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

View Postlarrybud, on 08 September 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View Post80sFredriksson, on 08 September 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

So Clement advocates that the face is closed 45 degrees at setup, does this make any sense, do any pros do this?
Wouldn't this require sick amounts of shaft lean to square it or put some twist in basically hitting with left forearm 45 degrees rotated?

Closed 45 degrees relative to what?

If you're talking about the face in relation to the back of your left hand, I could see that, but that seems like an arbitrary point of measurement.

Relative to neutral.

Serious question, what's "Neutral"?     After all, you DO have TWO hands, and the relation between them can change as well.

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#24 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 09:14 AM

View Postlarrybud, on 09 September 2017 - 05:33 AM, said:

View PostPetunia Sprinkle, on 08 September 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

View Postlarrybud, on 08 September 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View Post80sFredriksson, on 08 September 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

So Clement advocates that the face is closed 45 degrees at setup, does this make any sense, do any pros do this?
Wouldn't this require sick amounts of shaft lean to square it or put some twist in basically hitting with left forearm 45 degrees rotated?

Closed 45 degrees relative to what?

If you're talking about the face in relation to the back of your left hand, I could see that, but that seems like an arbitrary point of measurement.

Relative to neutral.

Serious question, what's "Neutral"?     After all, you DO have TWO hands, and the relation between them can change as well.

Just before hatching, is the egg not both chicken and egg? I agree, 'neutral', like 'natural', has come to mean absolutely nothing. But, in the video posted, either in the second or third post, Clement illustrates what he means. I suppose one could argue as there really is no one neutral grip, if the clubface is facing the target at address, regardless of the position of either hand, it's not closed at all.

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#25 oikos1

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 10:15 AM

There's been a lot of Shawn Clement talk/videos posted lately.  Marketing push????


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#26 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 07:03 PM

View Postoikos1, on 09 September 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

There's been a lot of Shawn Clement talk/videos posted lately.  Marketing push????

He's running in 2020.

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#27 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 10:00 PM

Neutral is back of left hand approximately parallel to clubface.

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#28 QEight

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 04:51 AM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 09 September 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

Neutral is back of left hand approximately parallel to clubface.

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So with the loft the strength changes?
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#29 robbohank

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 06:59 AM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 09 September 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

Neutral is back of left hand approximately parallel to clubface.

BT

BT - Leading edge or clubface? I've always considered neutral to be the former.

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#30 80sFredriksson

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 08:13 AM

View Postoikos1, on 09 September 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

There's been a lot of Shawn Clement talk/videos posted lately.  Marketing push????

No at least not by me, I just thought it was weird advice and still do. I can see the benifit of a strong grip but to setup the face 45 degrees closed to target line which is how I interpret what he is saying in my opinion feels awful, why not just rotate it square and say play with a see 4 knuckle grip instead.


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