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2017 Golf Magazine Top 100


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#1 FairwayFred

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:16 PM

Top 100 USA
http://www.golf.com/...ted-states-2017

Top 100 World
http://www.golf.com/...rses-world-2017


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#2 One_Putt_Blunder

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 11:05 PM

Played 64 51 28 and 3 a couple weeks ago Not going to get into the semantics over rankings philosophy again. I do not get the privilege of playing many of the upper tier US private clubs so hard for me to compare but the rounds I played in Scotland I can easily see why N Berwick, Kingsbarns, Carnoustie, and TOC are listed. They easily moved into my list of top courses played which includes something like 40-45 courses that at some point were listed in the top 100 US public. Already looking forward to my next trip back to Scotland to knock off another 5-6 of that list.
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#3 Roadking2003

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 07:06 PM

On the USA list, I've played;

3
5
10
18
25
29
33
43
45
53
58
72
80
91
94

And plan to add Sand Valley, Erin Hills and Whistling Straits next year.

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#4 FairwayFred

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 10:34 PM

Ive played 80 of their USA list and I am a member at 3 of them.
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#5 Carl Spackler2

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:43 AM

Did you hit the fairwayfred?

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#6 Roadking2003

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 12:00 PM

My top 100 world;

100
95
88
82
73
67
64
60
54
49
48
47
35
30
28
18
17
16
14
10
9
5
4
3

As I read through these lists I find some of the rankings shocking.  But I guess that's because I'm not an expert and I certainly don't want to get another scolding from fairwayfred for trashing courses that the experts like.

Apparently, what's in vogue today is;

1.  Old courses
2.  Ocean courses
3.  Courses built on sandy soil
4.  Courses that look natural.

Maybe that will change someday.

Edited by Roadking2003, 09 September 2017 - 12:03 PM.


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#7 raynorfan1

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 12:48 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 09 September 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

As I read through these lists I find some of the rankings shocking.  But I guess that's because I'm not an expert and I certainly don't want to get another scolding from fairwayfred for trashing courses that the experts like.

Apparently, what's in vogue today is;

1.  Old courses
2.  Ocean courses
3.  Courses built on sandy soil
4.  Courses that look natural.

Maybe that will change someday.

It's hard to react to this without understanding what rankings you find "shocking". Who doesn't belong or is wildly out of place, or is left out?

With respect to your other points;

(1) Old Courses - I think what we've seen over the past 15 years is a bunch of "old" courses (including my own) putting some serious efforts into restoration/renovation to keep them competitive with "new" courses. Many of the "old" courses that have moved up the rankings (Cal Club, LACC, Camargo, Pinehurst, Shinnecock, Oakmont, etc. etc. etc.) have undergone extensive work at some point since ~2000. But even then, if you look at courses built after 1990 (less than 30 years old), you've got 29 out of the 100. If you want to look at an under-represented era, it's probably the post-war 1945-1975 period, which really only has Peachtree, Spyglass, and Muirfield Village (which has sort of been a work-in-progress for it's entire existence).

(2) Ocean Courses - You've said it yourself many times, it's hard to differentiate experience from design, and the "ocean view" experience is always one that will carry weight in golf course ratings. Even so, I only count 24 of the USA top 100 as "ocean" venues (there's some subjectivity there, is Whistling Straits an "ocean" course?). On the world list, it's going to be a bigger number simply because so many of the best courses are Links venues, which are, by definition, on the water.

(3) Courses built on sandy soil. I think this comes down to a few practicalities of building a golf course. Sandy soil handles the agronomy required for a golf course much more efficiently than others. It's easier to grow (and maintain) the fescues, bent grass, and poa strains in a sand-based soil than in thicker stuff. It's also easier to manipulate and shape sandy soils into the golf course of your dreams. In New England, where we have a lot of glacial moraine and rocky outcroppings, it takes a lot of dynamite to build what could be bulldozed around on a sandy site.

(4) Courses that look natural. I think you're wrong. You're pretty much totally right with respect to new courses, where the minimalist Coore + Crenshaw, Doak, et. al. philosophy is dominating right now. But even among the group newer than 2000, there are some manufactured ones in there (Calusa Pines, Gozzer Ranch, Nanea). And if you consider the work of Seth Raynor and CB Macdonald, which is currently very in vogue, they were the Tom Fazio's of their day (Charles "steam shovel" Banks oversaw much of their construction). I think if you actually looked down the list and ranked the courses as "manufactured or natural", you'd find relatively few "natural" courses. But they do dominate the newest entrants to the rankings. I would argue that's because that's what's being built at the high-end these days.

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#8 Tim Gavrich

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 12:53 PM

From the US Top 100 list, I've played:

52 - Sand Valley
55 - Yale
59 - Old Town Club
64 - Streamsong (Blue)
71 - Newport
74 - Erin Hills
98 - Chambers Bay
99 - Mountain Lake

* I've also played Pinehurst No. 2 and Philly Cricket (Wissahickon), but it was prior to their recent significant renovations.

I think I'd put Chambers ahead of Erin Hills and move Mountain Lake up some, but it seems like a pretty good list. It might favor "championship" courses a little heavily, but that's understandably reflective of golfers' strong (too strong at times, IMO) desires to play where the pros play.

Courses I've played that I could put above certain courses on this list:

Lawsonia (Links)
Greywalls
Pine Tree
CC of Florida
Secession
Old Tabby Links
Tobacco Road
Shelter Harbor
Alotian
Paramount CC
Mountain Ridge

Edited by Tim Gavrich, 09 September 2017 - 12:56 PM.

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#9 Roadking2003

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:11 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 09 September 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:


It's hard to react to this without understanding what rankings you find "shocking". Who doesn't belong or is wildly out of place, or is left out?



Of the ones I have played, I would never put Prestwick in the top 100.  It's too gimmicky. And the Cal Club would not be on my top 100.  It's nice, but not a top 100.

I would also rate Prairie Dunes and Pinehurst much lower.

I would rather play courses like Cabo del Sol and LochenHeath any day than the four listed above.

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#10 raynorfan1

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:27 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 09 September 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 09 September 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

It's hard to react to this without understanding what rankings you find "shocking". Who doesn't belong or is wildly out of place, or is left out?



Of the ones I have played, I would never put Prestwick in the top 100.  It's too gimmicky. And the Cal Club would not be on my top 100.  It's nice, but not a top 100.

I would also rate Prairie Dunes and Pinehurst much lower.

I would rather play courses like Cabo del Sol and LochenHeath any day than the four listed above.

I think any of that is fair. It's hard for me to get worked up about a club (Prestwick) ranked #100 on a Top 100 list. I guess being on the list matters a lot to some courses, so whoever got left off for Prestwick to be included might be unhappy.

Cal Club, I've not played since the renovation, but have heard consistently good things - we've got a group that goes out on a west coast trip every year, and they added Cal Club to the rotation (SFGC, Olympic, MPCC, et. al.). Everybody seems to feel like it's a really good addition.

PD and Pinehurst, I could see a bit lower. But not "much" lower. They're top 100 courses. Top 20 and Top 10 respectively? Eh, I probably agree with you that those are high-ish. But I wouldn't have any problem if both were Top 50.


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#11 FairwayFred

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 02:13 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 09 September 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

My top 100 world;

100
95
88
82
73
67
64
60
54
49
48
47
35
30
28
18
17
16
14
10
9
5
4
3

As I read through these lists I find some of the rankings shocking.  But I guess that's because I'm not an expert and I certainly don't want to get another scolding from fairwayfred for trashing courses that the experts like.

Apparently, what's in vogue today is;

1.  Old courses
2.  Ocean courses
3.  Courses built on sandy soil
4.  Courses that look natural.

Maybe that will change someday.

I never scolded you for trashing courses the experts like.  That's completely untrue. I've said MANY times that everyone has an opinion and nobody's opinion is wrong which is one of my favorite things about golf course architecture.  My issue is you saying Course A is better than Course B when you really mean you had a better experience at B much of which had nothing to do with the game of golf or the course itself.  You yourself have said you do not have the ability to rank a course based on the course itself so many you should stop posting as if you do?  Atleast lately you have been playing up how important "experience" is to you so hopefully people can read into that and remember that experience will change day to day but the golf course (pretty much) stays the same.

Edited by FairwayFred, 09 September 2017 - 02:14 PM.

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#12 FairwayFred

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 02:15 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 09 September 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 09 September 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

As I read through these lists I find some of the rankings shocking.  But I guess that's because I'm not an expert and I certainly don't want to get another scolding from fairwayfred for trashing courses that the experts like.

Apparently, what's in vogue today is;

1.  Old courses
2.  Ocean courses
3.  Courses built on sandy soil
4.  Courses that look natural.

Maybe that will change someday.

It's hard to react to this without understanding what rankings you find "shocking". Who doesn't belong or is wildly out of place, or is left out?

With respect to your other points;

(1) Old Courses - I think what we've seen over the past 15 years is a bunch of "old" courses (including my own) putting some serious efforts into restoration/renovation to keep them competitive with "new" courses. Many of the "old" courses that have moved up the rankings (Cal Club, LACC, Camargo, Pinehurst, Shinnecock, Oakmont, etc. etc. etc.) have undergone extensive work at some point since ~2000. But even then, if you look at courses built after 1990 (less than 30 years old), you've got 29 out of the 100. If you want to look at an under-represented era, it's probably the post-war 1945-1975 period, which really only has Peachtree, Spyglass, and Muirfield Village (which has sort of been a work-in-progress for it's entire existence).

(2) Ocean Courses - You've said it yourself many times, it's hard to differentiate experience from design, and the "ocean view" experience is always one that will carry weight in golf course ratings. Even so, I only count 24 of the USA top 100 as "ocean" venues (there's some subjectivity there, is Whistling Straits an "ocean" course?). On the world list, it's going to be a bigger number simply because so many of the best courses are Links venues, which are, by definition, on the water.

(3) Courses built on sandy soil. I think this comes down to a few practicalities of building a golf course. Sandy soil handles the agronomy required for a golf course much more efficiently than others. It's easier to grow (and maintain) the fescues, bent grass, and poa strains in a sand-based soil than in thicker stuff. It's also easier to manipulate and shape sandy soils into the golf course of your dreams. In New England, where we have a lot of glacial moraine and rocky outcroppings, it takes a lot of dynamite to build what could be bulldozed around on a sandy site.

(4) Courses that look natural. I think you're wrong. You're pretty much totally right with respect to new courses, where the minimalist Coore + Crenshaw, Doak, et. al. philosophy is dominating right now. But even among the group newer than 2000, there are some manufactured ones in there (Calusa Pines, Gozzer Ranch, Nanea). And if you consider the work of Seth Raynor and CB Macdonald, which is currently very in vogue, they were the Tom Fazio's of their day (Charles "steam shovel" Banks oversaw much of their construction). I think if you actually looked down the list and ranked the courses as "manufactured or natural", you'd find relatively few "natural" courses. But they do dominate the newest entrants to the rankings. I would argue that's because that's what's being built at the high-end these days.

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#13 North Texas

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 07:30 PM

Here's one for you.

Colonial CC in Fort Worth is the only Texas course on the Top 100 USA list.

Here in North Texas we have a local magazine that rates all of the DFW private and public courses. They have 9 private courses ranked ahead of Colonial in the DFW area.

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#14 Roadking2003

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 07:24 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 09 September 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 09 September 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 09 September 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

It's hard to react to this without understanding what rankings you find "shocking". Who doesn't belong or is wildly out of place, or is left out?



Of the ones I have played, I would never put Prestwick in the top 100.  It's too gimmicky. And the Cal Club would not be on my top 100.  It's nice, but not a top 100.

I would also rate Prairie Dunes and Pinehurst much lower.

I would rather play courses like Cabo del Sol and LochenHeath any day than the four listed above.

I think any of that is fair. It's hard for me to get worked up about a club (Prestwick) ranked #100 on a Top 100 list. I guess being on the list matters a lot to some courses, so whoever got left off for Prestwick to be included might be unhappy.

Cal Club, I've not played since the renovation, but have heard consistently good things - we've got a group that goes out on a west coast trip every year, and they added Cal Club to the rotation (SFGC, Olympic, MPCC, et. al.). Everybody seems to feel like it's a really good addition.

PD and Pinehurst, I could see a bit lower. But not "much" lower. They're top 100 courses. Top 20 and Top 10 respectively? Eh, I probably agree with you that those are high-ish. But I wouldn't have any problem if both were Top 50.

I played Cal Club last year, after the renovation. It's a very good course, but not that good.

14

#15 Roadking2003

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 07:30 AM

View PostNorth Texas, on 09 September 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Here's one for you.

Colonial CC in Fort Worth is the only Texas course on the Top 100 USA list.

Here in North Texas we have a local magazine that rates all of the DFW private and public courses. They have 9 private courses ranked ahead of Colonial in the DFW area.

But Colonial fits more of the raters preferences.  It's old, has a famous old architect, and is a very walkable course.

I've played quite a few courses here in TX (including Colonial) and agree with you.  There are several I would rate higher.  But Colonial has a very rich history.

Edited by Roadking2003, 10 September 2017 - 07:32 AM.


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#16 FairwayFred

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 03:08 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 10 September 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 09 September 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 09 September 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 09 September 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

It's hard to react to this without understanding what rankings you find "shocking". Who doesn't belong or is wildly out of place, or is left out?



Of the ones I have played, I would never put Prestwick in the top 100.  It's too gimmicky. And the Cal Club would not be on my top 100.  It's nice, but not a top 100.

I would also rate Prairie Dunes and Pinehurst much lower.

I would rather play courses like Cabo del Sol and LochenHeath any day than the four listed above.

I think any of that is fair. It's hard for me to get worked up about a club (Prestwick) ranked #100 on a Top 100 list. I guess being on the list matters a lot to some courses, so whoever got left off for Prestwick to be included might be unhappy.

Cal Club, I've not played since the renovation, but have heard consistently good things - we've got a group that goes out on a west coast trip every year, and they added Cal Club to the rotation (SFGC, Olympic, MPCC, et. al.). Everybody seems to feel like it's a really good addition.

PD and Pinehurst, I could see a bit lower. But not "much" lower. They're top 100 courses. Top 20 and Top 10 respectively? Eh, I probably agree with you that those are high-ish. But I wouldn't have any problem if both were Top 50.

I played Cal Club last year, after the renovation. It's a very good course, but not that good.

But even you say that you cannot and have  no desire to separate the golf course from the overall experience of being at the club that day.  So shouldn't you say that you played Cal Club after the renovation and had a very good but not that good experience rather than talking about how good the course is?
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#17 Roadking2003

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 04:33 PM

View PostFairwayFred, on 10 September 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

But even you say that you cannot and have  no desire to separate the golf course from the overall experience of being at the club that day.  So shouldn't you say that you played Cal Club after the renovation and had a very good but not that good experience rather than talking about how good the course is?

You are still trying to twist my words and are overthinking this topic.  I had a wonderful experience that day.  A very good caddie, and played with a member who was quite friendly and welcoming.  The course is very interesting with a variety of holes including some elevation changes, short holes, long holes, and doglegs.  The practice area is just OK. The fairways were nice.  The greens putted true.

How's that?

All that being said, it would not make my top 100.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to understand that most of us don't evaluate courses using a textbook and shot by shot examination of all 18 holes.  In fact, I've never met anyone who does that.  You are among an extreme minority.

Next time you post a course rating maybe you should support that rating with a shot by shot evaluation of all 18 holes.  Oh and so as to not mislead anyone, be sure to post that you didn't consider course conditioning since that might change.  And be sure to tell us that the pureness of the greens wasn't considered since that might change.

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#18 FairwayFred

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 06:58 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 10 September 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 10 September 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

But even you say that you cannot and have  no desire to separate the golf course from the overall experience of being at the club that day.  So shouldn't you say that you played Cal Club after the renovation and had a very good but not that good experience rather than talking about how good the course is?

You are still trying to twist my words and are overthinking this topic.  I had a wonderful experience that day.  A very good caddie, and played with a member who was quite friendly and welcoming.  The course is very interesting with a variety of holes including some elevation changes, short holes, long holes, and doglegs.  The practice area is just OK. The fairways were nice.  The greens putted true.

How's that?

All that being said, it would not make my top 100.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to understand that most of us don't evaluate courses using a textbook and shot by shot examination of all 18 holes.  In fact, I've never met anyone who does that.  You are among an extreme minority.

Next time you post a course rating maybe you should support that rating with a shot by shot evaluation of all 18 holes.  Oh and so as to not mislead anyone, be sure to post that you didn't consider course conditioning since that might change.  And be sure to tell us that the pureness of the greens wasn't considered since that might change.

I'm not twisting your words at all, just repeating what you said.  You cant have it both ways. This is from a different thread:

GolfWRX member: I'm always amazed with people who can manage to separate the golf course from the experience.  I definitely cannot.  


Roadking2003:  I agree and think that 99% of golfers don't have the skill nor the desire to rate courses based on a textbook.  For most of us, it's all about having fun playing golf and that includes the entire experience.

So in a nut shell your rating which courses you had a better experience at rather than which one is a better course which is totally fine I just think you should say that.

Also no idea what textbook your talking about I simply rate the golf course on the merits of the golf course itself and don't include things outside the golf course when rating the golf course.

Edited by FairwayFred, 10 September 2017 - 07:02 PM.

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#19 OutBackHack

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 07:21 PM

View PostNorth Texas, on 09 September 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Here's one for you.

Colonial CC in Fort Worth is the only Texas course on the Top 100 USA list.

Here in North Texas we have a local magazine that rates all of the DFW private and public courses. They have 9 private courses ranked ahead of Colonial in the DFW area.

I think access to courses may play into that. There is one course I know well that I can use as an example.
Frederica has to be a top 100 course, without doubt. But it never gets rated, I have read it's because the course raters are not allowed on the course. I believe that's probably true.

I would assume there are other tracks in the same boat.


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#20 az2au

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 08:02 PM

View PostOutBackHack, on 10 September 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

View PostNorth Texas, on 09 September 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Here's one for you.

Colonial CC in Fort Worth is the only Texas course on the Top 100 USA list.

Here in North Texas we have a local magazine that rates all of the DFW private and public courses. They have 9 private courses ranked ahead of Colonial in the DFW area.

I think access to courses may play into that. There is one course I know well that I can use as an example.
Frederica has to be a top 100 course, without doubt. But it never gets rated, I have read it's because the course raters are not allowed on the course. I believe that's probably true.

I would assume there are other tracks in the same boat.
There is no such thing as a course that doesn't allow raters on the course. There are many in the Top 100 that provide no special access as well which is what I think you really mean. I usually don't tell the course I'm there to do a rating FWIW. In fact, the last 7 courses that I have submitted ratings for had no idea I was there to do a rating. It doesn't improve my access and I rarely have enough notice to feel justified in asking them for privileges that way so I just pay normal full boat and rate to the best of my ability to do so.

Also, there are also courses that do not wish to be rated but I'm not sure if it is one of them.


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#21 Carl Spackler2

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 01:07 AM

View Postaz2au, on 10 September 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

View PostOutBackHack, on 10 September 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

View PostNorth Texas, on 09 September 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Here's one for you.

Colonial CC in Fort Worth is the only Texas course on the Top 100 USA list.

Here in North Texas we have a local magazine that rates all of the DFW private and public courses. They have 9 private courses ranked ahead of Colonial in the DFW area.

I think access to courses may play into that. There is one course I know well that I can use as an example.
Frederica has to be a top 100 course, without doubt. But it never gets rated, I have read it's because the course raters are not allowed on the course. I believe that's probably true.

I would assume there are other tracks in the same boat.
There is no such thing as a course that doesn't allow raters on the course. There are many in the Top 100 that provide no special access as well which is what I think you really mean. I usually don't tell the course I'm there to do a rating FWIW. In fact, the last 7 courses that I have submitted ratings for had no idea I was there to do a rating. It doesn't improve my access and I rarely have enough notice to feel justified in asking them for privileges that way so I just pay normal full boat and rate to the best of my ability to do so.

Also, there are also courses that do not wish to be rated but I'm not sure if it is one of them.

I felt like when Golf Magazine came to rank El Cardonal and Dunes, Diamante went all out keeping those folks happy.

Put them up in the golf villas, prime tee times before owners each morning, transportation to CSL for nightlife, and other stuff that was above my pay grade. I was definitely told to keep an eye on them.

They were bouncing back and forth from Diamante and Quivira. Pretty sweet set up.

The original 45ish world rank was key for Diamante Dunes, then they axed old 12&13 to create those beautiful but really unplayable ocean holes. Then changing 10, axing 18. Now they are 32 or 35... all a higher ranking.

What did you think of all that hub bub?


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#22 az2au

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 07:56 AM

I can't speak to Golf Magazine's policies as I am not one of their panelists. The panel I am on wouldn't allow that. The only free thing you can accept is golf and cart (if applicable). Everything else is to be paid for at normal prices. Any violation of that rule leads to an immediate dismissal from the panel. That's the way it should be.

That said, Diamanté Dunes is outstanding and El Cardonal is very good. I've played both many times and will be down there again for two weeks at Thanksgiving. Looking forward to it.

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#23 raynorfan1

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 08:21 AM

The ones that frustrate me - and I know I've beaten this horse before - are the brand new courses that make the list. Sand Valley is this year's contender.

I'm sure it's a great course. But it's been open for four months, and already rated in the Top 100? Has the grass even settled in yet? It basically means that they did a "preview" outing for a bunch of raters last year, and what was rated was not the actual course, but the potential actual course.

I'd prefer to see a track record of excellence for a few years before a course gets a free pass onto the list.

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#24 Roadking2003

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 08:32 AM

View PostFairwayFred, on 10 September 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 10 September 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 10 September 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

But even you say that you cannot and have  no desire to separate the golf course from the overall experience of being at the club that day.  So shouldn't you say that you played Cal Club after the renovation and had a very good but not that good experience rather than talking about how good the course is?

You are still trying to twist my words and are overthinking this topic.  I had a wonderful experience that day.  A very good caddie, and played with a member who was quite friendly and welcoming.  The course is very interesting with a variety of holes including some elevation changes, short holes, long holes, and doglegs.  The practice area is just OK. The fairways were nice.  The greens putted true.

How's that?

All that being said, it would not make my top 100.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to understand that most of us don't evaluate courses using a textbook and shot by shot examination of all 18 holes.  In fact, I've never met anyone who does that.  You are among an extreme minority.

Next time you post a course rating maybe you should support that rating with a shot by shot evaluation of all 18 holes.  Oh and so as to not mislead anyone, be sure to post that you didn't consider course conditioning since that might change.  And be sure to tell us that the pureness of the greens wasn't considered since that might change.

I'm not twisting your words at all, just repeating what you said.  You cant have it both ways. This is from a different thread:

GolfWRX member: I'm always amazed with people who can manage to separate the golf course from the experience.  I definitely cannot.  


Roadking2003:  I agree and think that 99% of golfers don't have the skill nor the desire to rate courses based on a textbook.  For most of us, it's all about having fun playing golf and that includes the entire experience.

So in a nut shell your rating which courses you had a better experience at rather than which one is a better course which is totally fine I just think you should say that.

Also no idea what textbook your talking about I simply rate the golf course on the merits of the golf course itself and don't include things outside the golf course when rating the golf course.

Yep. That's my post.  It's still 100% accurate.

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#25 FairwayFred

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 10:14 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 11 September 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 10 September 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 10 September 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 10 September 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

But even you say that you cannot and have  no desire to separate the golf course from the overall experience of being at the club that day.  So shouldn't you say that you played Cal Club after the renovation and had a very good but not that good experience rather than talking about how good the course is?

You are still trying to twist my words and are overthinking this topic.  I had a wonderful experience that day.  A very good caddie, and played with a member who was quite friendly and welcoming.  The course is very interesting with a variety of holes including some elevation changes, short holes, long holes, and doglegs.  The practice area is just OK. The fairways were nice.  The greens putted true.

How's that?

All that being said, it would not make my top 100.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to understand that most of us don't evaluate courses using a textbook and shot by shot examination of all 18 holes.  In fact, I've never met anyone who does that.  You are among an extreme minority.

Next time you post a course rating maybe you should support that rating with a shot by shot evaluation of all 18 holes.  Oh and so as to not mislead anyone, be sure to post that you didn't consider course conditioning since that might change.  And be sure to tell us that the pureness of the greens wasn't considered since that might change.

I'm not twisting your words at all, just repeating what you said.  You cant have it both ways. This is from a different thread:

GolfWRX member: I'm always amazed with people who can manage to separate the golf course from the experience.  I definitely cannot.  


Roadking2003:  I agree and think that 99% of golfers don't have the skill nor the desire to rate courses based on a textbook.  For most of us, it's all about having fun playing golf and that includes the entire experience.

So in a nut shell your rating which courses you had a better experience at rather than which one is a better course which is totally fine I just think you should say that.

Also no idea what textbook your talking about I simply rate the golf course on the merits of the golf course itself and don't include things outside the golf course when rating the golf course.

Yep. That's my post.  It's still 100% accurate.

I agree that post is a 100% accurate portrayal of your thoughts.  My point still being that you say over and over you do not and cannot rate a golf course on its own merits that you are telling us about your experience that day at that club so you should be up front and say that instead of misleading people when you say which "course" is "better" in your opinion.

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#26 Roadking2003

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 10:48 AM

View PostFairwayFred, on 11 September 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 11 September 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 10 September 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 10 September 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 10 September 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

But even you say that you cannot and have  no desire to separate the golf course from the overall experience of being at the club that day.  So shouldn't you say that you played Cal Club after the renovation and had a very good but not that good experience rather than talking about how good the course is?

You are still trying to twist my words and are overthinking this topic.  I had a wonderful experience that day.  A very good caddie, and played with a member who was quite friendly and welcoming.  The course is very interesting with a variety of holes including some elevation changes, short holes, long holes, and doglegs.  The practice area is just OK. The fairways were nice.  The greens putted true.

How's that?

All that being said, it would not make my top 100.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to understand that most of us don't evaluate courses using a textbook and shot by shot examination of all 18 holes.  In fact, I've never met anyone who does that.  You are among an extreme minority.

Next time you post a course rating maybe you should support that rating with a shot by shot evaluation of all 18 holes.  Oh and so as to not mislead anyone, be sure to post that you didn't consider course conditioning since that might change.  And be sure to tell us that the pureness of the greens wasn't considered since that might change.

I'm not twisting your words at all, just repeating what you said.  You cant have it both ways. This is from a different thread:

GolfWRX member: I'm always amazed with people who can manage to separate the golf course from the experience.  I definitely cannot.  


Roadking2003:  I agree and think that 99% of golfers don't have the skill nor the desire to rate courses based on a textbook.  For most of us, it's all about having fun playing golf and that includes the entire experience.

So in a nut shell your rating which courses you had a better experience at rather than which one is a better course which is totally fine I just think you should say that.

Also no idea what textbook your talking about I simply rate the golf course on the merits of the golf course itself and don't include things outside the golf course when rating the golf course.

Yep. That's my post.  It's still 100% accurate.

I agree that post is a 100% accurate portrayal of your thoughts.  My point still being that you say over and over you do not and cannot rate a golf course on its own merits that you are telling us about your experience that day at that club so you should be up front and say that instead of misleading people when you say which "course" is "better" in your opinion.

There you go again.  Twisting my words.  I never said I "do not and cannot rate a golf course on its own merits ".  Why not post what I said?  Why change my words?  You are not only being misleading but you are being dishonest.

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#27 FairwayFred

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 10:58 AM

Come on now RK.  You may have used different actual words but you have consistently said you do not and cannot rank a golf course on the merits of the golf course alone and instead focus on having fun and your whole experience.  Which will change from day to day and visit to visit.  You can't change that now because it doesn't suit your current argument.  And btw I DID post what you said I actually took your words from another thread and directly quoted them.

Edited by FairwayFred, 11 September 2017 - 11:07 AM.

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#28 Roadking2003

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 11:29 AM

View PostFairwayFred, on 11 September 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Come on now RK.  You may have used different actual words but you have consistently said you do not and cannot rank a golf course on the merits of the golf course alone and instead focus on having fun and your whole experience.  Which will change from day to day and visit to visit.  You can't change that now because it doesn't suit your current argument.  

Why do you refuse to quote me accurately over and over again?  Why must you change my words?  There is no effort to change the post you quoted accurately. Repost what I actually said and I'll agree with you.  Stop being dishonest with your interpretation of my words.  Yes, words do make a difference.

Quote

And btw I DID post what you said I actually took your words from another thread and directly quoted them.

You did quote me accurately and I agreed and still agree that it was accurate.  So why are you insisting on changing my words now?  What are you afraid of?  Are the words I posted that difficult to understand?

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#29 One_Putt_Blunder

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 11:32 AM

Guys take it to PM All these course ratings threads just turn into the same argument between you two
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#30 FairwayFred

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 11:35 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 11 September 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 11 September 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Come on now RK.  You may have used different actual words but you have consistently said you do not and cannot rank a golf course on the merits of the golf course alone and instead focus on having fun and your whole experience.  Which will change from day to day and visit to visit.  You can't change that now because it doesn't suit your current argument.  

Why do you refuse to quote me accurately over and over again?  Why must you change my words?  There is no effort to change the post you quoted accurately. Repost what I actually said and I'll agree with you.  Stop being dishonest with your interpretation of my words.  Yes, words do make a difference.

Quote

And btw I DID post what you said I actually took your words from another thread and directly quoted them.

You did quote me accurately and I agreed and still agree that it was accurate.  So why are you insisting on changing my words now?  What are you afraid of?  Are the words I posted that difficult to understand?

Wow.  This is just a message board.  I would hope there is nothing to be afraid of?  Either way this discussion has devolved past the point that it can be saved I think.  I hope you have a great day! Try to get out and play some golf if you can.

Edited by FairwayFred, 11 September 2017 - 11:36 AM.

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