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Brandel: The Best Putters Hit Slightly Downward


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#31 dan360

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 01:16 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 August 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

View Postdan360, on 27 August 2017 - 09:47 PM, said:

Forward press.  

People who gush all over about the Miura KM350 yet don't know who George Low is.   Wizard 600 people.  

One of the best ever with knowing how to teach the flatstick.  

Dave Stockton.   Forward press.  

Cmon people, really.

And Stockton doesn't hit down on it at all. If anything his students hit up on it more than average.  Forward press/shaft lean doesn't mean hitting down.  Two totally different things

Read Brandel's response to Holy Moses above.  

He means not so much a downward stroke as the feeling of such.  

He didn't say it well the first time, but the semantics police word cop stuff gets tiring after awhile.  lol

Edited by dan360, 28 August 2017 - 01:19 PM.

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#32 iteachgolf

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 02:40 PM

View Postdan360, on 28 August 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 August 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

View Postdan360, on 27 August 2017 - 09:47 PM, said:

Forward press.  

People who gush all over about the Miura KM350 yet don't know who George Low is.   Wizard 600 people.  

One of the best ever with knowing how to teach the flatstick.  

Dave Stockton.   Forward press.  

Cmon people, really.

And Stockton doesn't hit down on it at all. If anything his students hit up on it more than average.  Forward press/shaft lean doesn't mean hitting down.  Two totally different things

Read Brandel's response to Holy Moses above.  

He means not so much a downward stroke as the feeling of such.  

He didn't say it well the first time, but the semantics police word cop stuff gets tiring after awhile.  lol

No he backpedaled after saying it wrong on the air. It's not semantics.  Hitting down and having forward shaft lean are two totally different things.   He got called out by several top teachers for it on social media and I believe tried to save face by saying he meant shaft lean.  But that makes him look worse imo by not knowing those two things are completely different.

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#33 Z1ggy16

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 02:44 PM

I can't hit down because I'm a lefty with right eye dominance. I have to play the ball forward in my stance in order to aim correctly. Therefore I hit up on the ball a slight amount... but to counter this, I have only 1.5* loft on my putter. I don't think there's anything wrong with hitting up a slight amount when putting, just like there's nothing technically wrong hitting down with your driver. Heck, DJ is one of the longest on tour, pretty sure his AoA is slightly negative with the big stick, hence his 10.5* loft despite a swing speed of over 120.
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#34 larrybud

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 02:46 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 August 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

No he backpedaled after saying it wrong on the air. It's not semantics.  Hitting down and having forward shaft lean are two totally different things.   He got called out by several top teachers for it on social media and I believe tried to save face by saying he meant shaft lean.  But that makes him look worse imo by not knowing those two things are completely different.

I wonder if Brandel also knows that forward shaft lean doesn't mean negative loft on the putter...

Edited by larrybud, 28 August 2017 - 02:47 PM.


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#35 iteachgolf

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 03:03 PM

View PostZ1ggy16, on 28 August 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

I can't hit down because I'm a lefty with right eye dominance. I have to play the ball forward in my stance in order to aim correctly. Therefore I hit up on the ball a slight amount... but to counter this, I have only 1.5* loft on my putter. I don't think there's anything wrong with hitting up a slight amount when putting, just like there's nothing technically wrong hitting down with your driver. Heck, DJ is one of the longest on tour, pretty sure his AoA is slightly negative with the big stick, hence his 10.5* loft despite a swing speed of over 120.

His 10.5* of loft is due to his amount of shaft lean. Not his AOA.  He's very level and averages about 1* UP on it with driver.

And all the best putters on tour hit up on it.  It's not only not wrong it's ideal.


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#36 ferrispgm

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 02:47 PM

Brandel is something else....what is kind of funny though, at least to me is that everyone is up in arms about this....and rightfully so.....but not much is ever mentioned about other instructors...may have been Breed.....that said after DJ won a few times....A great way to generate power is to keep the left wrist bowed at the top and into the downswing
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#37 fore_life

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 03:00 PM

Breed is a clown too, he says lots of things haha
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#38 ferrispgm

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 03:48 PM

View Postfore_life, on 29 August 2017 - 03:00 PM, said:

Breed is a clown too, he says lots of things haha

haha....agreed...I'm not a fan, though I think he has decent putting tips...the problem is that I get ADD just watching him.
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#39 dan360

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 12:50 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 August 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

View Postdan360, on 28 August 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 August 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

View Postdan360, on 27 August 2017 - 09:47 PM, said:

Forward press.  

People who gush all over about the Miura KM350 yet don't know who George Low is.   Wizard 600 people.  

One of the best ever with knowing how to teach the flatstick.  

Dave Stockton.   Forward press.  

Cmon people, really.

And Stockton doesn't hit down on it at all. If anything his students hit up on it more than average.  Forward press/shaft lean doesn't mean hitting down.  Two totally different things

Read Brandel's response to Holy Moses above.  

He means not so much a downward stroke as the feeling of such.  

He didn't say it well the first time, but the semantics police word cop stuff gets tiring after awhile.  lol

No he backpedaled after saying it wrong on the air. It's not semantics.  Hitting down and having forward shaft lean are two totally different things.   He got called out by several top teachers for it on social media and I believe tried to save face by saying he meant shaft lean.  But that makes him look worse imo by not knowing those two things are completely different.

I'm not an expert.  Far from it.  Just a hacker.   I understood what he was meaning pre-Twitter BS.

I can recall Stan Utley saying something similar years ago in an article.   What you feel isn't always real.  




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#40 MooreMikeA

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 01:39 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 August 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

View PostZ1ggy16, on 28 August 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

I can't hit down because I'm a lefty with right eye dominance. I have to play the ball forward in my stance in order to aim correctly. Therefore I hit up on the ball a slight amount... but to counter this, I have only 1.5* loft on my putter. I don't think there's anything wrong with hitting up a slight amount when putting, just like there's nothing technically wrong hitting down with your driver. Heck, DJ is one of the longest on tour, pretty sure his AoA is slightly negative with the big stick, hence his 10.5* loft despite a swing speed of over 120.

His 10.5* of loft is due to his amount of shaft lean. Not his AOA.  He's very level and averages about 1* UP on it with driver.

And all the best putters on tour hit up on it.  It's not only not wrong it's ideal.

So I better understand what you are saying, does a good putter hit up slightly and also have some forward shaft lean?   Do you need both with a putter of average loft 3-4 degrees?  Where is a good starting point for ball position?


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#41 dbleag

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 01:54 PM

View Postdan360, on 31 August 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 August 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

View Postdan360, on 28 August 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 August 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

View Postdan360, on 27 August 2017 - 09:47 PM, said:

Forward press.  

People who gush all over about the Miura KM350 yet don't know who George Low is.   Wizard 600 people.  

One of the best ever with knowing how to teach the flatstick.  

Dave Stockton.   Forward press.  

Cmon people, really.
And Stockton doesn't hit down on it at all. If anything his students hit up on it more than average.  Forward press/shaft lean doesn't mean hitting down.  Two totally different things

Read Brandel's response to Holy Moses above.  

He means not so much a downward stroke as the feeling of such.  

He didn't say it well the first time, but the semantics police word cop stuff gets tiring after awhile.  lol

No he backpedaled after saying it wrong on the air. It's not semantics.  Hitting down and having forward shaft lean are two totally different things.   He got called out by several top teachers for it on social media and I believe tried to save face by saying he meant shaft lean.  But that makes him look worse imo by not knowing those two things are completely different.

I'm not an expert.  Far from it.  Just a hacker.   I understood what he was meaning pre-Twitter BS.

I can recall Stan Utley saying something similar years ago in an article.   What you feel isn't always real.  

I have also heard Stan Utley say that the "feeling" is like you're hitting slightly down on the putt - maybe it was on his Golf Channel Putting Special a few years ago, which is still available to watch on YouTube.

Edited by dbleag, 31 August 2017 - 01:54 PM.


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#42 iteachgolf

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 01:54 PM

View PostMooreMikeA, on 31 August 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 August 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

View PostZ1ggy16, on 28 August 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

I can't hit down because I'm a lefty with right eye dominance. I have to play the ball forward in my stance in order to aim correctly. Therefore I hit up on the ball a slight amount... but to counter this, I have only 1.5* loft on my putter. I don't think there's anything wrong with hitting up a slight amount when putting, just like there's nothing technically wrong hitting down with your driver. Heck, DJ is one of the longest on tour, pretty sure his AoA is slightly negative with the big stick, hence his 10.5* loft despite a swing speed of over 120.

His 10.5* of loft is due to his amount of shaft lean. Not his AOA.  He's very level and averages about 1* UP on it with driver.

And all the best putters on tour hit up on it.  It's not only not wrong it's ideal.

So I better understand what you are saying, does a good putter hit up slightly and also have some forward shaft lean?   Do you need both with a putter of average loft 3-4 degrees?  Where is a good starting point for ball position?

Most hit up with shaft lean.  Ball position depends on stroke but generally forward of center in left chest area

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#43 tngolf22

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 12:32 PM

And Hogan said you always overclub downwind.  I wonder how many careers that advice ruined.

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#44 rangersgoalie

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 01:16 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 August 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

View Postdan360, on 27 August 2017 - 09:47 PM, said:

Forward press.  

People who gush all over about the Miura KM350 yet don't know who George Low is.   Wizard 600 people.  

One of the best ever with knowing how to teach the flatstick.  

Dave Stockton.   Forward press.  

Cmon people, really.
And Stockton doesn't hit down on it at all. If anything his students hit up on it more than average.  Forward press/shaft lean doesn't mean hitting down.  Two totally different things


For me, and I mean me only, I worked with Stockton and he wanted me moving down through the ball and a spot in front of it

No way being argumentative, just what I worked on with him, I haven't watched him work with anybody else

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#45 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 01:52 PM

View Posttngolf22, on 26 October 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

And Hogan said you always overclub downwind.  I wonder how many careers that advice ruined.

For many shots thatís excellent advice, IMO

Did you see him smacked up
And cracked up
With his tongue on his chin
And his club in his hand,
Swinging from the rafters
Like a real RocknRolla

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#46 nohny noke

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 01:54 PM

Why is it so hard for Chamblee (and others) to admit it when they're wrong?

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#47 dlygrisse

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 02:25 PM

This is where looking at the numbers can really screw people up. Roll the ball to the hole....that's all you really need to think about.  

A trained instructor can look at numbers and get a better idea what someone is doing and gauge improvement.  But the average guy thinking about hitting down, level or up is the wrong intent.
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#48 iteachgolf

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 02:53 PM

View Postrangersgoalie, on 26 October 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 August 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

View Postdan360, on 27 August 2017 - 09:47 PM, said:

Forward press.  

People who gush all over about the Miura KM350 yet don't know who George Low is.   Wizard 600 people.  

One of the best ever with knowing how to teach the flatstick.  

Dave Stockton.   Forward press.  

Cmon people, really.
And Stockton doesn't hit down on it at all. If anything his students hit up on it more than average.  Forward press/shaft lean doesn't mean hitting down.  Two totally different things


For me, and I mean me only, I worked with Stockton and he wanted me moving down through the ball and a spot in front of it

No way being argumentative, just what I worked on with him, I haven't watched him work with anybody else

But weíre you actually?  A ton of guys feel like they are hitting down that arenít.  

Kinda like Utley says he has no shaft lean at impact yet he has quite a bit.

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#49 cardoustie

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 03:10 PM

George Low was a Wizard

Brandel needs an information wizard
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#50 tngolf22

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 02:09 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 26 October 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

View Posttngolf22, on 26 October 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

And Hogan said you always overclub downwind.  I wonder how many careers that advice ruined.

For many shots that's excellent advice, IMO

Good to know.  I must not be doing it right then, since I tend to blow it over the green when I try it!  Not trying to be sarcastic lol.  By the way your videos have really helped understand my game, Monte!


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#51 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 04:17 PM

Learn to hit your 165 club 120-130 and low.
Did you see him smacked up
And cracked up
With his tongue on his chin
And his club in his hand,
Swinging from the rafters
Like a real RocknRolla

21

#52 rangersgoalie

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 06:27 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 26 October 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

View Postrangersgoalie, on 26 October 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 28 August 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

View Postdan360, on 27 August 2017 - 09:47 PM, said:

Forward press.  

People who gush all over about the Miura KM350 yet don't know who George Low is.   Wizard 600 people.  

One of the best ever with knowing how to teach the flatstick.  

Dave Stockton.   Forward press.  

Cmon people, really.
And Stockton doesn't hit down on it at all. If anything his students hit up on it more than average.  Forward press/shaft lean doesn't mean hitting down.  Two totally different things


For me, and I mean me only, I worked with Stockton and he wanted me moving down through the ball and a spot in front of it

No way being argumentative, just what I worked on with him, I haven't watched him work with anybody else

But we're you actually?  A ton of guys feel like they are hitting down that aren't.  

Kinda like Utley says he has no shaft lean at impact yet he has quite a bit.
iteach

Teach,
yup.  Had a little spot in front of my ball I moved through.  On longer putts, very level through impact though.  I putted much better, but I wasn't a world beater either!!!  Added a lot of loft tom my putters too

Edited by rangersgoalie, 27 October 2017 - 06:28 PM.


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#53 XJared

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 10:48 PM

View Posttngolf22, on 26 October 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

And Hogan said you always overclub downwind.  I wonder how many careers that advice ruined.
Maybe not always, but higher lofted clubs for me seem to get knocked down by a tail wind.

23

#54 tngolf22

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 10:29 AM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 27 October 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

Learn to hit your 165 club 120-130 and low.

Never thought of that.  Is this easier than allowing for the wind and just taking one or two more less clubs?  I've never taken a 6 iron and tried to hit it 120 or 130, unless I was behind a tree and had to hit it low to keep it under some branches.  There are several situations where I'm hitting to a front flag and these new firm bermuda greens make it difficult to land on the front and keep it there.  If I hit a low shot and ran it up to the green this would be the shot to have...damn why didn't I think of this before?  :dntknw:

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#55 Harleyweedwhacks

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:15 PM

I'm probably the only one here who agrees with the notion that hitting level to down on putts is the way to do it properly. If I'm hitting putts well, I can hear a slight skid on the first four feet of the putt, and that's due to backspin. If you have any loft on your putter at all, whether it be 2 degrees, or 4 degrees, it will create backspin on all of your putts because there's loft as a general rule. If your putter has no loft, you can usually get a pure roll, but most putters have some degree of loft to ensure the putt is hit with some degree of backspin.

The reason I say it's optimal is because on any green, the ball will sit down slightly into the grass, whether you see it or not. It's very slight, but enough to call for loft on a putter, and the backspin gets the ball out of the depression and rolling afterwards. This is the reason for a very slight downward hit. And we're not talking even a whole degree here, maybe a half a degree. If you try to hit down on a putt you'll naturally have 3 to 4 degrees of down (maybe less) so you really just don't strike the ball pure at all. A level blow with the putter, with some loft, is optimal.


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#56 iteachgolf

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 08:27 PM

View PostHarleyweedwhacks, on 31 October 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

I'm probably the only one here who agrees with the notion that hitting level to down on putts is the way to do it properly. If I'm hitting putts well, I can hear a slight skid on the first four feet of the putt, and that's due to backspin. If you have any loft on your putter at all, whether it be 2 degrees, or 4 degrees, it will create backspin on all of your putts because there's loft as a general rule. If your putter has no loft, you can usually get a pure roll, but most putters have some degree of loft to ensure the putt is hit with some degree of backspin.

The reason I say it's optimal is because on any green, the ball will sit down slightly into the grass, whether you see it or not. It's very slight, but enough to call for loft on a putter, and the backspin gets the ball out of the depression and rolling afterwards. This is the reason for a very slight downward hit. And we're not talking even a whole degree here, maybe a half a degree. If you try to hit down on a putt you'll naturally have 3 to 4 degrees of down (maybe less) so you really just don't strike the ball pure at all. A level blow with the putter, with some loft, is optimal.

This is all wrong.  Just because you have loft on the putter doesnít mean you will get backspin.  And launch angle gets it out of its depression and not backspin.  You donít want the ball skidding and you can launch the ball a few degrees in the air without the ball having backspin.  You can launch the ball 2-3 degrees with forward spin immediately off the face with proper mechanics.  And itís not by hitting down on it

The best putters do not hit down on there putts as a rule.  There are 2 exceptions that I know of out of the tons of pros who have been measured.

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#57 Holy Moses

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 08:36 PM

View PostHarleyweedwhacks, on 31 October 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

I'm probably the only one here who agrees with the notion that hitting level to down on putts is the way to do it properly. If I'm hitting putts well, I can hear a slight skid on the first four feet of the putt, and that's due to backspin. If you have any loft on your putter at all, whether it be 2 degrees, or 4 degrees, it will create backspin on all of your putts because there's loft as a general rule. If your putter has no loft, you can usually get a pure roll, but most putters have some degree of loft to ensure the putt is hit with some degree of backspin.

The reason I say it's optimal is because on any green, the ball will sit down slightly into the grass, whether you see it or not. It's very slight, but enough to call for loft on a putter, and the backspin gets the ball out of the depression and rolling afterwards. This is the reason for a very slight downward hit. And we're not talking even a whole degree here, maybe a half a degree. If you try to hit down on a putt you'll naturally have 3 to 4 degrees of down (maybe less) so you really just don't strike the ball pure at all. A level blow with the putter, with some loft, is optimal.

I get why you need loft, but I always thought that you wanted to hit up on a putt so that a ball stops skidding ASAP.
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#58 iteachgolf

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 08:39 PM

View PostHoly Moses, on 31 October 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

View PostHarleyweedwhacks, on 31 October 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

I'm probably the only one here who agrees with the notion that hitting level to down on putts is the way to do it properly. If I'm hitting putts well, I can hear a slight skid on the first four feet of the putt, and that's due to backspin. If you have any loft on your putter at all, whether it be 2 degrees, or 4 degrees, it will create backspin on all of your putts because there's loft as a general rule. If your putter has no loft, you can usually get a pure roll, but most putters have some degree of loft to ensure the putt is hit with some degree of backspin.

The reason I say it's optimal is because on any green, the ball will sit down slightly into the grass, whether you see it or not. It's very slight, but enough to call for loft on a putter, and the backspin gets the ball out of the depression and rolling afterwards. This is the reason for a very slight downward hit. And we're not talking even a whole degree here, maybe a half a degree. If you try to hit down on a putt you'll naturally have 3 to 4 degrees of down (maybe less) so you really just don't strike the ball pure at all. A level blow with the putter, with some loft, is optimal.

I get why you need loft, but I always thought that you wanted to hit up on a putt so that a ball stops skidding ASAP.

You do

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#59 Sean2

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 08:40 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

None of the great putters hit down.  He couldn't be more wrong or clueless on this one

Maybe he is trying to impart backspin on the ball, so if it goes past the hole it will spin back.
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#60 iteachgolf

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 08:50 PM

Posted Image

This is one of the pros I teach as an example.  Ball is launching out of its depression with immediate topspine (top still is from SAM) and can see in bottom photo (using Flightscope to track roll of putt) the ball had zero skid.

This happens because even though there is loft on the putter (both static and dynamic at impact) the rise angle at impact is greater than the effective/dynamic loft at impact.  This creates forward/top spin


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