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Why don't U.S. Private clubs allow outside play like the Scottish clubs do?


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#61 North Butte

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 08:34 AM

Aren't most of these charity events scrambles or other hit-n-giggle type formats?

I've noticed a few of those mentioned over the years and it'll be something like $500 for a 4-man scramble team to play such-and-such high-end private club. Playing golf at a famous and/or great course is one thing. But if it's riding around in a cart and yukking it up for 5-1/2 hours I'd rather be playing at home.

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#62 andrue

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 08:47 AM

View PostGolfnuck, on 18 August 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

You state you would prefer the UK model but it looks to me the average US golfer has more access to golf courses than the UK golfer. US - 91% UK - 74% ((71%*(65+26))+3+6).
I'm not sure how valid that point is. The UK is a smaller country with a higher population density than the US. Presumably also a higher golf course density. If we assume that most golfers are prepared to drive up to an hour each way for a social match I'd guess that a lot of UK golfers probably have a choice of a couple of dozen 'local clubs'. I live an hour from London and that's about what I have.

If we extend that to two hours each way to travel for a competition that's going to be several dozen clubs. For a comp I'd be prepared to drive almost anywhere in central and southern England so that probably covers two thirds of the courses in the country.

For a weekend trip only Scotland is really impractical for me to drive to as that's over six hours away.

So yes - you have more courses but it'd be interesting to see how many 'local' courses UK players have compared to US.

As for accesibility - I only know of one club around here that is sometimes a bit tricky for non-members to play. But even they accept bookings without asking for anything more than a name. They just warn you that members can bump you off your tee-time. But everywhere else it's no different to booking any other service. You pay your money and you roll up to the first tee.

Going back to my first point - my Buddy and I are members of two clubs (I'm a member of both as I have a points membership with his). But for our regular match about half the time we go to another course. Any course. We have a large choice and we just call them up or book online. We play our own courses a lot but there are so many others within range that we rarely play each of those more than two or three times a year.

Edited by andrue, 24 August 2017 - 08:57 AM.

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#63 raynorfan1

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 10:14 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 24 August 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

Aren't most of these charity events scrambles or other hit-n-giggle type formats?

I've noticed a few of those mentioned over the years and it'll be something like $500 for a 4-man scramble team to play such-and-such high-end private club. Playing golf at a famous and/or great course is one thing. But if it's riding around in a cart and yukking it up for 5-1/2 hours I'd rather be playing at home.

Usually when you get into top 100 type courses, the format is something normal (most common is probably best ball of four). Once the golf course itself becomes the draw (vs the charity/ "fun day out"), the organizer responds accordingly.

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#64 RRstein82

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 10:33 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 24 August 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 24 August 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

Aren't most of these charity events scrambles or other hit-n-giggle type formats?

I've noticed a few of those mentioned over the years and it'll be something like $500 for a 4-man scramble team to play such-and-such high-end private club. Playing golf at a famous and/or great course is one thing. But if it's riding around in a cart and yukking it up for 5-1/2 hours I'd rather be playing at home.

Usually when you get into top 100 type courses, the format is something normal (most common is probably best ball of four). Once the golf course itself becomes the draw (vs the charity/ "fun day out"), the organizer responds accordingly.

Agreed. Most of the one's I've played have been best 1 or 2 balls of the foursome, so you do get to actually play the course.  Generally pretty good swag bags too.

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#65 Golfnuck

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 11:11 AM

View Postandrue, on 24 August 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

View PostGolfnuck, on 18 August 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

You state you would prefer the UK model but it looks to me the average US golfer has more access to golf courses than the UK golfer. US - 91% UK - 74% ((71%*(65+26))+3+6).
I'm not sure how valid that point is. The UK is a smaller country with a higher population density than the US. Presumably also a higher golf course density. If we assume that most golfers are prepared to drive up to an hour each way for a social match I'd guess that a lot of UK golfers probably have a choice of a couple of dozen 'local clubs'. I live an hour from London and that's about what I have.

If we extend that to two hours each way to travel for a competition that's going to be several dozen clubs. For a comp I'd be prepared to drive almost anywhere in central and southern England so that probably covers two thirds of the courses in the country.

For a weekend trip only Scotland is really impractical for me to drive to as that's over six hours away.

So yes - you have more courses but it'd be interesting to see how many 'local' courses UK players have compared to US.

As for accesibility - I only know of one club around here that is sometimes a bit tricky for non-members to play. But even they accept bookings without asking for anything more than a name. They just warn you that members can bump you off your tee-time. But everywhere else it's no different to booking any other service. You pay your money and you roll up to the first tee.

Going back to my first point - my Buddy and I are members of two clubs (I'm a member of both as I have a points membership with his). But for our regular match about half the time we go to another course. Any course. We have a large choice and we just call them up or book online. We play our own courses a lot but there are so many others within range that we rarely play each of those more than two or three times a year.

I was hoping someone from the UK would reply to me assessment and give me a better understanding of the UK model.

I based my analysis purely by the "numbers" and obviously it does not take into account real access based on proximity.

Using the Golf England 2014 Golf Club Membership Questionnaire - http://www.englandgo...naire&preview=1
- 65% of clubs are private, 26% are proprietary clubs (private club but not owned by the membership but owned by an owner for commercial return), 3% are Artisan (class of members who gain access at private clubs at low cost but had limited rights for example green keepers etc) and 6% are municipal.
- 71% of private clubs accept daily green fees
Hence I arrived at 74% ((71%*(65+26))+3+6) that would allow for public access.

In all of these access to private club discussions the assertion is that here in North America private club members are more pretentious or snobby because we do not generally allow unaccompanied public play.

One of my assertions is that there are other factors at play that really determine the difference in the "private" club models in NA vs. England.

Ownership of the land:
- In NA the majority of private clubs own the land.
- What is the situation in the UK?
- Here in Vancouver BC there is a "private" club Seymour GC that leases the land from the government and in the lease they must offer public play at least one a week.

Basic structure of the private clubs:
- The majority of the private clubs in NA only go back to the late 1800's or early 1900's.
- Many private clubs in the UK are much older.
- Perhaps the UK club's origins are that they are much more like a collective of golfers that have organized themselves into a Society to play golf on a certain public parcel of land. In addition many of these Societies actually defined their own rules of golf at the beginning and the number of holes was defined by the size of the property. Of course with the creation of the R&A everything was standardized.
- In NA by the time golf started to be played the rules of golf were already established in the UK. The private club structure is more like a group of golfers that banded together to purchase a parcel of land and to make access to the land only those that have purchased a membership.

What do you think are the differences in private club models in NA vs. the UK?

Edited by Golfnuck, 24 August 2017 - 11:14 AM.


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#66 North Butte

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 11:32 AM

Golfnuck,

Are you talking about the 30-40 clubs in UK which receive significant amounts of overseas visitor play? Or the other 95% of them? Speaking as an occasional UK visitor and past overseas member of a UK private club, here's my observations in no particular order.

The whole idea of the "Country Club For A Day" (aka high-end daily fee operations) that resulted in a lot of nice public or semi-private courses being built in the 80's and 90's here never really took hold on that sort of scale in the UK. What they call "pay and play" courses are not, on the whole, particularly nice and can often be quite scruffy. So the group of guys venturing out to spend $70-$80 a piece on a round of golf would tend to book that round at a private club as green-fee-paying visitors in the UK. Those clubs are allowed to generate a large portion of their needed revenue each year from this sort of play.

Membership at a UK club is in my experience much more focused on club competition than is typical in USA. Many people are members of a local club almost entirely to play in a once or twice a week organized competition and they use the club only sparingly outside of those days. It can be a reason to pony up a yearly membership even if playing as a greens-fee visitor might be similar in total cost.

Dues at a UK club of any level will be a fraction of those at a similar level USA club. Like a quarter or even a tenth of the yearly outlay. That's just down to what UK golfers are willing to spend on their membership versus their USA counterparts. When you have 400 members each paying less than $1,000 per year equivalent, versus 400 members each paying $4,000/year it has two implications. One is that their clubs have to be run on a much less extravagent budget than a similar club over here. The other is that they see the value in a green fee paying visitor as being much more crucial to the club's financial survival than a typical USA club would.

And finally there's some sort of cultural thing about observing social norms for the club's presence in the community. I won't being to parse that as I'd probably get the wrong end of the stick for starters and might end up offending someone. But the proper role of a private golf club in a mid-sized UK city seems qualitatively different from that of a private golf club in a mid-sized USA city. Or at least the respective memberships seem to perceive that role very differently. So and open versus closed visitor policy ramifies in complicated ways specific to each social context.
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#67 Golfnuck

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 11:39 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 24 August 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

Golfnuck,

Are you talking about the 30-40 clubs in UK which receive significant amounts of overseas visitor play? Or the other 95% of them?


The 95%.

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#68 North Butte

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 11:44 AM

View PostGolfnuck, on 24 August 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 24 August 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

Golfnuck,

Are you talking about the 30-40 clubs in UK which receive significant amounts of overseas visitor play? Or the other 95% of them?


The 95%.

That's the run-of-the-mill clubs I was describing. Overseas visitor play at the "5% clubs" have a role that's more like the Bandons and Pebble Beaches than like Pine Valley or Merion.

I also left out of the financial calculus the fact that UK club members do not generally give the club a sizable per-round golf cart fee. At a lot of medium and smaller USA clubs that cart revenue (from members) probably adds up to as much per year as a similar UK club gets from outside play.
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#69 duffer987

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 12:36 PM

View Postandrue, on 24 August 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

View PostGolfnuck, on 18 August 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

You state you would prefer the UK model but it looks to me the average US golfer has more access to golf courses than the UK golfer. US - 91% UK - 74% ((71%*(65+26))+3+6).
I'm not sure how valid that point is. The UK is a smaller country with a higher population density than the US. Presumably also a higher golf course density. If we assume that most golfers are prepared to drive up to an hour each way for a social match I'd guess that a lot of UK golfers probably have a choice of a couple of dozen 'local clubs'. I live an hour from London and that's about what I have.

If we extend that to two hours each way to travel for a competition that's going to be several dozen clubs. For a comp I'd be prepared to drive almost anywhere in central and southern England so that probably covers two thirds of the courses in the country.

For a weekend trip only Scotland is really impractical for me to drive to as that's over six hours away.

So yes - you have more courses but it'd be interesting to see how many 'local' courses UK players have compared to US.

As for accesibility - I only know of one club around here that is sometimes a bit tricky for non-members to play. But even they accept bookings without asking for anything more than a name. They just warn you that members can bump you off your tee-time. But everywhere else it's no different to booking any other service. You pay your money and you roll up to the first tee.

Going back to my first point - my Buddy and I are members of two clubs (I'm a member of both as I have a points membership with his). But for our regular match about half the time we go to another course. Any course. We have a large choice and we just call them up or book online. We play our own courses a lot but there are so many others within range that we rarely play each of those more than two or three times a year.

Agreed. I don't think anyone who has spent any time playing golf in the UK/Ireland and North America would realistically say in practical terms, that the majority of North American golfers have more access to golf courses (as a % of the total), than the majority of UK/Ireland golfers.

I can think of two in the UK (and none in Ireland) that I'd think of playing that could be difficult to get on as a non-member golfer.
I can think of two within 9 miles of my office, I think I might like to play, that as a non-member wouldn't be straight forward.

Edited by duffer987, 24 August 2017 - 12:37 PM.


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#70 raynorfan1

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 02:29 PM

One of the things that's clear from this and other threads (I'm thinking of the recent "juniors in club championships" thread) is that the very concept of a "club" is very different in North America and in the U.K.

In the U.K., the primary purpose of a golf "club" is to provide the infrastructure for competitive play. Honestly, I think UK clubs look more like we would call a "league" or "golf association" in the US.

In North America, golf courses are largely one of many amenities provided at Country Clubs and the primary purpose of the club is social - and intentionally exclusionary. When we think of "clubs", we think of these exclusionary clubs that own golf courses (which they aggressively manage access to). When you think about a "club" in UK terms, it's much more focused on competitive golf than anything else.


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#71 raynorfan1

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 02:35 PM

View PostThe General, on 24 August 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

I wish private clubs would allow players with established handicaps of 5.0 or better to play their course for a small fee, something like $75-$100. Walk in, show your USGA verified handicap card and be on your way. Obviously the membership comes first so certain tees times would never be available for walk ups, but as a way to reward good players, and give other players something to strive for - opening up a great course to someone that normally wouldn't drop a peg there is a good thing. The better players generally know how to take care of the course so that wouldn't be an issue. And it would definitely be a 1 strike and you're out with the rules of the facility and taking care of the course. Now if you chunk it off the first tee, you may get a "background" check on your handicap.

I don't see why members who spend ~$300 a round to play the same facility would have any problem with this...

Almost all courses do already do exactly this, you just didn't set the bar high enough - PGA Pros can play most private clubs as a professional courtesy.

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#72 Pepperturbo

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 02:50 PM

To the OP, NOPE.  A good club with enough dues paying members willing to pay the cost of privacy, won't support outside play.  Seen it at the my last two clubs.  Only allowed Monday tournaments and that was constantly challenged.

Typically, outsiders don't respect the course and put more wear on it.  They tend not to respect golf course home property boundaries, think there's restroom behind every tree, worsen the range and generally make more work for staff, costing members.  As a board member, I never supported the idea.

There are private clubs owned by benevolent dictators that struggle for members.  Leadership redefines the club charter to semi-private to allow limited public play.  Played one recently with hopes, but the four of us came away disappointed.  The downside to that any private club going semi-pvt is condition goes down hill.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 24 August 2017 - 03:29 PM.

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#73 andrue

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 02:53 PM

My experience of being a paying member of a UK club is:

* If I can manage two evenings and one weekend afternoon at my club it will just about save me money, especially factoring in weeks off work and the occasional social round with my buddy. That is honestly a common reason for others to have joined.
* It gives me access to competitions. Although having got myself a naff 25 hcp I'm still not hugely enamoured of that.
* It means I can pop along any time at no cost.
* It opens the door up to the social life although that's just a few drinks at a the bar for the most part.

But what I do like about the UK scen is the flexibility to play any course. Some of them might ask for proof of handicap but most just want a credit card. In the US does that mean people tend to stick to just their own course? I reckon a third of my rounds are at other clubs.

As regards ownership: At my primary club it's owned by a private individual and organised by our club but anyone can book a tee time. The owner actually owns two clubs in the area and we get free access to both. At my secondary club it sounds like the same arrangement.

I understand the concept of a country club but very few clubs in the UK seem to follow that model. They are typically privately owned and there might be an official club based there that organises events but basically anyone with a credit card can play them.

Edited by andrue, 24 August 2017 - 02:56 PM.

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#74 krtgolfing

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 03:06 PM

View PostThe General, on 24 August 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

I wish private clubs would allow players with established handicaps of 5.0 or better to play their course for a small fee, something like $75-$100. Walk in, show your USGA verified handicap card and be on your way. Obviously the membership comes first so certain tees times would never be available for walk ups, but as a way to reward good players, and give other players something to strive for - opening up a great course to someone that normally wouldn't drop a peg there is a good thing. The better players generally know how to take care of the course so that wouldn't be an issue. And it would definitely be a 1 strike and you're out with the rules of the facility and taking care of the course. Now if you chunk it off the first tee, you may get a "background" check on your handicap.

I do not see the benefit of a private club allowing this especially for 75-100. I have seen plenty of good players not repair divots and ball marks.
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#75 The General

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 04:49 PM

View Postkrtgolfing, on 24 August 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

View PostThe General, on 24 August 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

I wish private clubs would allow players with established handicaps of 5.0 or better to play their course for a small fee, something like $75-$100. Walk in, show your USGA verified handicap card and be on your way. Obviously the membership comes first so certain tees times would never be available for walk ups, but as a way to reward good players, and give other players something to strive for - opening up a great course to someone that normally wouldn't drop a peg there is a good thing. The better players generally know how to take care of the course so that wouldn't be an issue. And it would definitely be a 1 strike and you're out with the rules of the facility and taking care of the course. Now if you chunk it off the first tee, you may get a "background" check on your handicap.

I do not see the benefit of a private club allowing this especially for 75-100. I have seen plenty of good players not repair divots and ball marks.

I should have set the bar higher then, 2 handicap or better. And if anyone doesn't repair divots or balls marks they should be asked to leave the course or pay a fine. Maybe the 75-100 is a little low, but still, a way to generate revenue for some clubs where play is down. And since the percentage of golfers with a 2 handicap or better is 4%, there wouldn't be that many tee times to give out.


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#76 North Butte

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 04:58 PM

Most clubs prefer to generate the allowed amount of outside revenue by hosting outings on Mondays and so forth. For many reasons.
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#77 Roadking2003

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 05:27 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 23 August 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 23 August 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

View PostLiquid, on 18 August 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

The UK courses need to allow limited outside tee times if they want to host the Open Championship. That's why you see a handful of groups playing Muirfield two days per week. Also applies to Troon, Turnberry, etc. You will NEVER see that at any U.S. private courses.

I've played lots of private clubs in the USA.  It's really quite common.

In fact, I'm playing one tomorrow and another one on Friday.

I've played a few very nice USA private courses as the invited and/or hosted guest of a member. In fact on a couple of those occasions the entire experience was indistinguishable from being an invited and/or hosted guest at a UK club.

But there's no equivalent to the very nice UK clubs who will let you go to their web site and book a round for some specific date and time with no introduction or connection required. That is very much a straight-up commercial transaction of a type that is extremely rare at USA clubs.

And yet I'm doing just that two times this week.  No introduction was needed.  So I'm not buying your "extremely rare" argument.

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#78 krtgolfing

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 07:11 PM

View PostThe General, on 24 August 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

View Postkrtgolfing, on 24 August 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

View PostThe General, on 24 August 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

I wish private clubs would allow players with established handicaps of 5.0 or better to play their course for a small fee, something like $75-$100. Walk in, show your USGA verified handicap card and be on your way. Obviously the membership comes first so certain tees times would never be available for walk ups, but as a way to reward good players, and give other players something to strive for - opening up a great course to someone that normally wouldn't drop a peg there is a good thing. The better players generally know how to take care of the course so that wouldn't be an issue. And it would definitely be a 1 strike and you're out with the rules of the facility and taking care of the course. Now if you chunk it off the first tee, you may get a "background" check on your handicap.

I do not see the benefit of a private club allowing this especially for 75-100. I have seen plenty of good players not repair divots and ball marks.

I should have set the bar higher then, 2 handicap or better. And if anyone doesn't repair divots or balls marks they should be asked to leave the course or pay a fine. Maybe the 75-100 is a little low, but still, a way to generate revenue for some clubs where play is down. And since the percentage of golfers with a 2 handicap or better is 4%, there wouldn't be that many tee times to give out.

Lol. Someone would get offended and sue. Private clubs should be for members only.
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#79 duffer987

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 10:43 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 24 August 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 23 August 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 23 August 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

View PostLiquid, on 18 August 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

The UK courses need to allow limited outside tee times if they want to host the Open Championship. That's why you see a handful of groups playing Muirfield two days per week. Also applies to Troon, Turnberry, etc. You will NEVER see that at any U.S. private courses.

I've played lots of private clubs in the USA.  It's really quite common.

In fact, I'm playing one tomorrow and another one on Friday.

I've played a few very nice USA private courses as the invited and/or hosted guest of a member. In fact on a couple of those occasions the entire experience was indistinguishable from being an invited and/or hosted guest at a UK club.

But there's no equivalent to the very nice UK clubs who will let you go to their web site and book a round for some specific date and time with no introduction or connection required. That is very much a straight-up commercial transaction of a type that is extremely rare at USA clubs.

And yet I'm doing just that two times this week.  No introduction was needed.  So I'm not buying your "extremely rare" argument.

Links? Which two clubs are these. If it's as easy to book as a club in the UK for the general golfing public, folks might be interested if the courses themselves are neat ones :)

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#80 munihack

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 01:54 PM

View PostThe General, on 24 August 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

View Postkrtgolfing, on 24 August 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

View PostThe General, on 24 August 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

I wish private clubs would allow players with established handicaps of 5.0 or better to play their course for a small fee, something like $75-$100. Walk in, show your USGA verified handicap card and be on your way. Obviously the membership comes first so certain tees times would never be available for walk ups, but as a way to reward good players, and give other players something to strive for - opening up a great course to someone that normally wouldn't drop a peg there is a good thing. The better players generally know how to take care of the course so that wouldn't be an issue. And it would definitely be a 1 strike and you're out with the rules of the facility and taking care of the course. Now if you chunk it off the first tee, you may get a "background" check on your handicap.

I do not see the benefit of a private club allowing this especially for 75-100. I have seen plenty of good players not repair divots and ball marks.

I should have set the bar higher then, 2 handicap or better. And if anyone doesn't repair divots or balls marks they should be asked to leave the course or pay a fine. Maybe the 75-100 is a little low, but still, a way to generate revenue for some clubs where play is down. And since the percentage of golfers with a 2 handicap or better is 4%, there wouldn't be that many tee times to give out.

you can set it at whatever you want handicapwise. it doesn't matter. for tax reasons it wont happen the irs is really becoming a stickler on private clubs to the point that we wont even host outside weddings .  also the goal of a club is not to reward good players to come use the facility at a loss or to give people something to strive for. they want people to strive for joining the club, not playing it at as a one off.  There really is no incentive at all for a private club to do this as best case scenario it is going to annoy dues paying members.


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#81 golfandfishing

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 09:24 PM

To take the position of a non member claiming it would help reduce the dues of members is silly on several fronts:

1) members don't need the help
2) members don't want non members playing, otherwise they wouldn't have joined a club that only allows members
3) at a typical club with say 8 months of playing time and you book 120 outside players per month at $200 = $192,000 per year. This is $548 per member, or about $45 per month if they have 350 members. Remember, they pay dues every month, even when the course is closed. If dues are $500 do you think they would rather pay $455 and deal with non members regularly?

If you are fortunate enough to play a private club as a non member/unaccompanied guest don't fool yourself into thinking you are doing them a favor.

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#82 andrue

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 12:58 AM

View Postduffer987, on 25 August 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 24 August 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 23 August 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 23 August 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

View PostLiquid, on 18 August 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

The UK courses need to allow limited outside tee times if they want to host the Open Championship. That's why you see a handful of groups playing Muirfield two days per week. Also applies to Troon, Turnberry, etc. You will NEVER see that at any U.S. private courses.

I've played lots of private clubs in the USA.  It's really quite common.

In fact, I'm playing one tomorrow and another one on Friday.

I've played a few very nice USA private courses as the invited and/or hosted guest of a member. In fact on a couple of those occasions the entire experience was indistinguishable from being an invited and/or hosted guest at a UK club.

But there's no equivalent to the very nice UK clubs who will let you go to their web site and book a round for some specific date and time with no introduction or connection required. That is very much a straight-up commercial transaction of a type that is extremely rare at USA clubs.

And yet I'm doing just that two times this week.  No introduction was needed.  So I'm not buying your "extremely rare" argument.

Links? Which two clubs are these. If it's as easy to book as a club in the UK for the general golfing public, folks might be interested if the courses themselves are neat ones :)
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#83 Chanceman

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 07:49 AM

Ok. I am an aussie and a member at a reasonably private club which allows visitors fom other states in Australia and also overseas visitors who are club members. Then I go to Europe/UK and can play almost anywhere providing I have the cash eg say $250. When I play over there it seems that many Americans doing the same thing. Never once has nor have I heard of any of these presumably well heeled guys offered to host me or another playing partner to come and play at their club in the US. It seems very poor form to accept hospitality for yourself and not to offer it in return.

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#84 raynorfan1

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 09:26 AM

View PostChanceman, on 28 August 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Ok. I am an aussie and a member at a reasonably private club which allows visitors fom other states in Australia and also overseas visitors who are club members. Then I go to Europe/UK and can play almost anywhere providing I have the cash eg say $250. When I play over there it seems that many Americans doing the same thing. Never once has nor have I heard of any of these presumably well heeled guys offered to host me or another playing partner to come and play at their club in the US. It seems very poor form to accept hospitality for yourself and not to offer it in return.

I have hosted a number of my playing partners from overseas rounds at my home club. I can assure you that if you wrote our club secretary and proposed a match between your (comparable) club and ours as a foursome of your members traveled through our area, you would be more than welcome. If your head pro called and asked if you could play more informally, we would try to set you up with a member to host you. I think the same is true of virtually every private club in the United States, except for a handful (ANGC, Nanea, et. al.).

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#85 az2au

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:11 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 28 August 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

View PostChanceman, on 28 August 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Ok. I am an aussie and a member at a reasonably private club which allows visitors fom other states in Australia and also overseas visitors who are club members. Then I go to Europe/UK and can play almost anywhere providing I have the cash eg say $250. When I play over there it seems that many Americans doing the same thing. Never once has nor have I heard of any of these presumably well heeled guys offered to host me or another playing partner to come and play at their club in the US. It seems very poor form to accept hospitality for yourself and not to offer it in return.

I have hosted a number of my playing partners from overseas rounds at my home club. I can assure you that if you wrote our club secretary and proposed a match between your (comparable) club and ours as a foursome of your members traveled through our area, you would be more than welcome. If your head pro called and asked if you could play more informally, we would try to set you up with a member to host you. I think the same is true of virtually every private club in the United States, except for a handful (ANGC, Nanea, et. al.).
Same for me.  I've even hosted people from Australia specifically.  In general I do everything I can to host people when possible because I always try to give people the same opportunities that have been afforded to me.  I've had exactly one bad experience in hosting tons of people over the years.  I'd also tell you that I absolutely do not care at all whether you can reciprocate at a similar or better club or any club at all.  I only care that you love to play golf, have fun doing so and respect our local rules and pace.  Finally, I would bet there are less than 100 clubs (probably less than 50) that wouldn't accept a reasonable request from overseas visitors and if you ask around here you get plenty of offers as well.


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#86 raynorfan1

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:18 AM

View Postaz2au, on 28 August 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

Finally, I would bet there are less than 100 clubs (probably less than 50) that wouldn't accept a reasonable request from overseas visitors and if you ask around here you get plenty of offers as well.

Agree - it's a very small handful who would outright reject a request from a qualified overseas visitor.

Generally, clubs are happy to host like-minded individuals.

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#87 Pepperturbo

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 01:22 PM

It was common at my last two clubs for our traveling members to ask our head professionals to call certain clubs in the area where they travel for permission to play.  Except for a limited few really high end clubs such as Sunnylands in Rancho Mirage, play request was always granted.  Cost was discounted, sometimes only cart fee.  Presuming acceptable in the club charter, its good business for many reasons.  However, if the person requesting play is not a member of a private club request would be rejected.
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#88 Shilgy

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 01:35 PM

View PostThe General, on 24 August 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

View Postkrtgolfing, on 24 August 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

View PostThe General, on 24 August 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

I wish private clubs would allow players with established handicaps of 5.0 or better to play their course for a small fee, something like $75-$100. Walk in, show your USGA verified handicap card and be on your way. Obviously the membership comes first so certain tees times would never be available for walk ups, but as a way to reward good players, and give other players something to strive for - opening up a great course to someone that normally wouldn't drop a peg there is a good thing. The better players generally know how to take care of the course so that wouldn't be an issue. And it would definitely be a 1 strike and you're out with the rules of the facility and taking care of the course. Now if you chunk it off the first tee, you may get a "background" check on your handicap.

I do not see the benefit of a private club allowing this especially for 75-100. I have seen plenty of good players not repair divots and ball marks.

I should have set the bar higher then, 2 handicap or better. And if anyone doesn't repair divots or balls marks they should be asked to leave the course or pay a fine. Maybe the 75-100 is a little low, but still, a way to generate revenue for some clubs where play is down. And since the percentage of golfers with a 2 handicap or better is 4%, there wouldn't be that many tee times to give out.
For many clubs you would then have players playing more often than some members and paying less per month. How would that sit with members?  Make it $150 per round, play once per week, and you would be paying $600 per month for the 4 rounds. Many members play less than that and pay more in dues.

Still seem like a good thing to do for the club?
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#89 chili_dip

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 07:40 PM

View PostPepperturbo, on 28 August 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

It was common at my last two clubs for our traveling members to ask our head professionals to call certain clubs in the area where they travel for permission to play.  Except for a limited few really high end clubs such as Sunnylands in Rancho Mirage, play request was always granted.  Cost was discounted, sometimes only cart fee.  Presuming acceptable in the club charter, its good business for many reasons.  However, if the person requesting play is not a member of a private club request would be rejected.
Pepper,

Question on etiquette for private clubs.  Is it expected if the courtesy is extended; is it a normal ask for those who were extended the courtesy to buy lunch/drinks in the grill room or a shirt from the shop?

Edited by chili_dip, 28 August 2017 - 07:42 PM.


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#90 obsessed_golfer

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 07:58 PM

If I had to buy a bond and pay an initiation fee, then pay annual dues and an annual dining minimum, why would I want someone to be a "member for a day"??


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