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Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?


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#61 Thrillhouse

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 08:40 PM

View PostMtlJeff, on 13 August 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

View Postgolferdrmjr, on 13 August 2017 - 08:12 PM, said:

View PostMtlJeff, on 13 August 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

Wait can we clarify here, are we talking tournament "conditions" only, or an actual tournament with fans?

I played Torrey south a few weeks before the tournament when the rough was in, from the one up tees and shot 81 with new clubs and didn't hit it super well. Qmany shot 69 that day as a +1.

Obviously Augusta is harder but we're talking shooting 84 here not winning a tournament and unless I'm mistaken it's not even in front of fans
Jeff, I hate to rain on your parade, but you guys played the two up tees. The Pro tees are not even marked 50 weeks out of the year. The tees one behind you were the taupe tees from 7,051 yards. There's another 600 yards behind those! :-)

The ones we played were roughly 6800 if I recall. It's likely they were two up from tournament on some holes yes

I think you guys played two up if it was under 7000.

So I'm a 4 right now, and I played Torrey back in June from the back tees they have set up (7051) and shot 78. Rough was thick, greens were rolling pretty well, it can't have been far off the farmers conditions. I might not have played well from 7600, but I'm pretty sure I would have broken 85 that day from those tees. Fun fact I was with a friend who is a really good college player at a top ranked D1 school, he played the back edge of the back tee and shot even, it was cool to watch.

Now I know I'm a poor example of a 4 because I used to be better, my putting and short game is much better than most 4s due to past experience, and as my driving is improving I'll probably be a solid scratch next year, so I'm not really a run of the mill 4 I'm more like a 0 who is a 4 right now because I drive it bad. BUT, I'm pretty sure I can break 85 at Augusta right now under tournament COURSE conditions (eg no crowds). I'm a good putter, I have all the shots around the greens, and I can get it around well enough from tee to green to score. 85 just isn't that high of a benchmark, I just started playing again this year after like 4 years off and yeah I had some sketchy high 80s rounds at the beginning but since then I think my worst is 84, and I sucked that day!

Now as far as breaking 80 in tournament course conditions at Augusta right now that would be a feat. Do I think I could do it? Possibly, but I wouldn't put my chances at better than 1/5. That being said if I was playing solid scratch golf could I do it? Yeah, I think chances would be good that I could. We aren't talking about playing in front of crowds and with TV cameras around, just a long golf course with fast greens, it's not that big of a deal.


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#62 Thrillhouse

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 08:42 PM

View Postlowheel, on 13 August 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

View PostTerpFangolfer, on 13 August 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

View Postgolfer929, on 13 August 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

Friend and I were having a discussion. He says he could do it and would not only break 85, but 80 as well! Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees. He said he wouldn't make a double bogey, and would birdie #13. What do you all think?

I say no way with true Master's Sunday conditions (esp if dry/windy)...as someone said - the "par" for a scratch Am is basically ~78...

no way. its like 81-82 minimum more if windy. 99.9% of scratches have never played 13.5 greens

I played Baltusrol with the assistant pro and 2 future web.com players the tuesday after the monday finish at the PGA in 2005. we couldnt break 75. were all  competitive pro golfers on various tours, think about it

Baltusrol had thick rough, Augusta has no rough, I think that makes a big difference.

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#63 Hawkeye77

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:03 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 August 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

It's grass .... not mystical Sherwood Forrest.  Good lord.

Oh, it's mystical!!!!

Like I said, you guys need to stop putting real info in here!

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#64 Slackattack

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:36 PM

He might break 85, but I would definitely take that no doubles bet.  Put it on the wrong spot on some of those greens and a 4 putt is very possible.  Your typical scratch golfer that plays the course the first time is going to have a blow up hole or two for sure
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#65 jll62

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 11:45 PM

View PostTLUBulldogGolf, on 13 August 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

Unless he has watched a ton of rounds played there I don't see any way he would be able to navigate those greens without some rough holes. It could be done but he would have to play well.

For a tournament scratch player, 85 is more than doable. I think it would be expected. This player will likely hit a good number of fairways at Augusta and not have any trouble playing out of the "second cut" on the ones they miss. They'll have reasonable shots into the greens. Most of the difficulty will come from not being as precise with the approaches and that will result in some balls that finish in spots where it will be very difficult to two putt. But that won't be every hole. They'll make a few 6-10 footers for par and miss a few.

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#66 Mcgeeno

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 06:50 AM

85 is doable IMO.

Breaking 80 I highly doubt.

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#67 mosesgolf

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 07:18 AM

85 yes.  First time out under tournament conditions 1% chance of breaking 80 imo.
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#68 scooterboy59

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 08:06 AM

Yes. they could also break par. Causal round. Tournament 78 to 85

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#69 Raving Shanker

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 09:09 AM

I think Augusta would suit my game.

I've heard you need to bend the ball left and right to succeed there - and I certainly have that.

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#70 sekrah

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 09:16 AM

People confuse a tournament setup with a tournament round.   Pros can torch these tough courses during practice but pressure busts pipes.

A scratch golfer playing a casual round can go pretty low, even on tough setups.  There's no doubt that one would be very capable of breaking 80 from Augusta's tips on a lazy Monday morning with some buddies.


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#71 BLLDWG23

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 10:05 AM

Doubt he breaks 80. 85 is doable.  I'd almost guarantee at least one double bogey.  What most folks don't get about the AN is the elevation changes throughout the course, never playing it or seeing it in person before hand would make it very difficult. Also some of the chutes they drive the ball through there the camera doesn't give justice to how tight it can be.

Edited by BLLDWG23, 14 August 2017 - 10:06 AM.


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#72 TPG1971

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 10:24 AM

The real question is what would Jonescott shoot there?
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#73 Cottonseed.

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 02:24 PM

a buddy of mine played Augusta this spring and shot 86. Hes a 4-6ish handicap.


my cousin played it several years ago and maintains that its not a difficult course.
hes scratch to + and I think he shot just a couple over.

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#74 straightshot7

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 03:27 PM

Okay given the "tournament scratch" correction, I think he would break 85.

But I still think he would have to play fairly well and be strong mentally.

I mean look at what little 12 did to Jordan Spieth. I know he had final round, contention pressure...but to think there won't be a time or two where an amateur playing it for the first time gets frazzled and has a triple or two? It will happen.

Wait until they have a chip that goes into the water, etc. it's going to be whether they can stay calm and stop the bleeding that makes the difference. That depends on your friend's mental game and temperment.

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#75 playa

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 03:51 PM

Sight unseen on Masters Sunday? Lucky to break 90 imo. A good scratch player on a good day could definitely be a chance of playing well tee to green as Augusta isn't overly penal, but those greens and those pins, without help from a caddy? No way. If tour players familiar with the course struggle on those greens, a scratch am is going to have fits trying to figure it out on the run. I know low am score there can be really good, but they are +5s or better who prepare like pros and get to play the course beforehand. Under the terms of the OP I say no to breaking 85 and no f-ing way he sniffs 80.


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#76 tiderider

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 03:56 PM

View PostCottonseed., on 14 August 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

a buddy of mine played Augusta this spring and shot 86. Hes a 4-6ish handicap.


my cousin played it several years ago and maintains that its not a difficult course.
hes scratch to + and I think he shot just a couple over.

very seriously doubt they played from the tournament tees or with the greens cut to 14 on the stimp ...

for the people who are saying the course isn't that difficult:

https://www.thoughtc...ational-1564589

Edited by tiderider, 14 August 2017 - 03:58 PM.


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#77 playa

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 03:57 PM

View PostCottonseed., on 14 August 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

a buddy of mine played Augusta this spring and shot 86. Hes a 4-6ish handicap.


my cousin played it several years ago and maintains that its not a difficult course.
hes scratch to + and I think he shot just a couple over.
On Sunday at the Masters? Not dissing your buddys ability but there is a big difference in difficulty from a course set up for a major and a member guest. I agree the course doesn't look super tough tee to green (but still no picnic either), but tournament speed greens and pins would be the stuff of nightmares.

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#78 sfiggins

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 05:09 PM

View PostRaving Shanker, on 14 August 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

I think Augusta would suit my game.

I've heard you need to bend the ball left and right to succeed there - and I certainly have that.

I too have all the shots. I just don't know when they're coming.

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#79 Shilgy

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 05:21 PM

View Posttiderider, on 14 August 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

View PostCottonseed., on 14 August 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

a buddy of mine played Augusta this spring and shot 86. Hes a 4-6ish handicap.


my cousin played it several years ago and maintains that its not a difficult course.
hes scratch to + and I think he shot just a couple over.

very seriously doubt they played from the tournament tees or with the greens cut to 14 on the stimp ...

for the people who are saying the course isn't that difficult:

https://www.thoughtc...ational-1564589
Someone else posted but it bears repeating. If the course rating is correct at 78.1 the scratch player will average about 81. And that is playing normal conditions. One time sight unseen no caddy? I would peg the over under at about 88. Too many shots that can jump up and get you at that course.
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#80 tiderider

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 08:39 PM

View PostShilgy, on 14 August 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

View Posttiderider, on 14 August 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

View PostCottonseed., on 14 August 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

a buddy of mine played Augusta this spring and shot 86. Hes a 4-6ish handicap.


my cousin played it several years ago and maintains that its not a difficult course.
hes scratch to + and I think he shot just a couple over.

very seriously doubt they played from the tournament tees or with the greens cut to 14 on the stimp ...

for the people who are saying the course isn't that difficult:

https://www.thoughtc...ational-1564589
Someone else posted but it bears repeating. If the course rating is correct at 78.1 the scratch player will average about 81. And that is playing normal conditions. One time sight unseen no caddy? I would peg the over under at about 88. Too many shots that can jump up and get you at that course.

but they scratch, brah ... they scratch ...


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#81 28tosssweep

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 09:39 PM

Fun golf course to play and lots of birdies available. But be real, you aren't allowed on the course without a caddy and there is no way to duplicate Sunday tournament conditions. Sometimes you'll get most of the Sunday pins but you're not playing in The Masters. However, you can score well if you avoid penalties. I've had some really good rounds there because the fairways are generous, greens are perfect and I get get fired up to play it.

Edited by 28tosssweep, 14 August 2017 - 09:52 PM.


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#82 McCann1

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 05:41 AM

I took a couple scratch golfers out to TPC Potomac before the Quicken and they both shot 86. Potomac is hard, but it ain't ANGC
Enjoy the chase.

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#83 DNice26

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 06:19 AM

I'm willing to take one for the team here and go play Augusta to find out.  Happy to help resolve the question....
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#84 golfer07840

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 08:17 AM

 Darth Putter, on 13 August 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

Oh the arrogance, in tournament conditions and no caddy either?

I say he triples one and fails to break 90.

Will he be going to Pine Valley and taking bets on breaking 80 there too?

Pine Valley from the tips is rated 76.2/155 .. so yes, if he plays to his handicap or even a few strokes over, he could shoot 80 at Pine Valley.

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#85 golfer07840

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 08:24 AM

 hammer1, on 13 August 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

A friend of mine who is about a 5 handicap played Augusta a few years ago from the members tees and shot an 82. I'm not sure how much longer the tournament tees play but I would think the OP's friend could shoot low 80s, assuming his short game is on.

According to the scorecard that is available via my Skycaddie, Augusta National from the member's tees plays at 6,365 yards. The Tournament tees are played at 7,445 yards. I'd say there is quite the difference.


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#86 golfer07840

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 08:28 AM

 driverhead, on 13 August 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

I know someone who played in the Masters as an amateur in the mid 70s.  He got in finishing in the semis of the US Amateur the previous year.   He was one of the 2 best amateurs in the DC area back in the 70s.  He shot 75 75 and missed the cut.

According to another thread here in WRX, the ball and equipment of today should easily turn those 75's into 65's.

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#87 Cottonseed.

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 09:11 AM

No, there were obviously not tournament conditions, pins, tees, etc during time of play.

Just telling yall what I know to be factual.

From the tournament tees at 7k yards plus, greens, pins, he wouldn't break 90 on his best day.

Edited by Cottonseed., 15 August 2017 - 09:16 AM.


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#88 Forged4ever

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 09:59 AM

 Thrillhouse, on 13 August 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

 MtlJeff, on 13 August 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

 golferdrmjr, on 13 August 2017 - 08:12 PM, said:

 MtlJeff, on 13 August 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

Wait can we clarify here, are we talking tournament "conditions" only, or an actual tournament with fans?

I played Torrey south a few weeks before the tournament when the rough was in, from the one up tees and shot 81 with new clubs and didn't hit it super well. Qmany shot 69 that day as a +1.

Obviously Augusta is harder but we're talking shooting 84 here not winning a tournament and unless I'm mistaken it's not even in front of fans
Jeff, I hate to rain on your parade, but you guys played the two up tees. The Pro tees are not even marked 50 weeks out of the year. The tees one behind you were the taupe tees from 7,051 yards. There's another 600 yards behind those! :-)

The ones we played were roughly 6800 if I recall. It's likely they were two up from tournament on some holes yes

I think you guys played two up if it was under 7000.

So I'm a 4 right now, and I played Torrey back in June from the back tees they have set up (7051) and shot 78. Rough was thick, greens were rolling pretty well, it can't have been far off the farmers conditions. I might not have played well from 7600, but I'm pretty sure I would have broken 85 that day from those tees. Fun fact I was with a friend who is a really good college player at a top ranked D1 school, he played the back edge of the back tee and shot even, it was cool to watch.

Now I know I'm a poor example of a 4 because I used to be better, my putting and short game is much better than most 4s due to past experience, and as my driving is improving I'll probably be a solid scratch next year, so I'm not really a run of the mill 4 I'm more like a 0 who is a 4 right now because I drive it bad. BUT, I'm pretty sure I can break 85 at Augusta right now under tournament COURSE conditions (eg no crowds). I'm a good putter, I have all the shots around the greens, and I can get it around well enough from tee to green to score. 85 just isn't that high of a benchmark, I just started playing again this year after like 4 years off and yeah I had some sketchy high 80s rounds at the beginning but since then I think my worst is 84, and I sucked that day!

Now as far as breaking 80 in tournament course conditions at Augusta right now that would be a feat. Do I think I could do it? Possibly, but I wouldn't put my chances at better than 1/5. That being said if I was playing solid scratch golf could I do it? Yeah, I think chances would be good that I could. We aren't talking about playing in front of crowds and with TV cameras around, just a long golf course with fast greens, it's not that big of a deal.
Exactly!!

This is obviously just my .03 worth and we've addressed this in various forms and scenarios previously, i.e., "4~ versus LPGA Player," etc. and while the numbers have changed, the "game's" still the same, lol.

My thoughts are that there are two types of "scratches," one who has traveled "North" to that territory from "Plus," some, such as Thrill and the guy that I'm about to speak of(again, lol), having been deeper than others, though "Elite" and "Competitive" Plus Ams, of which I would put my old self in the "Competitive" category though below Elite, have "been there done that" to varying degrees and levels.

Do many, such as Thrill and my Friend, who was a DI AA, Walker Cupper and had his Tour card for two seasons(1986 & 1987) before he tried to "perfect" his swing and, well, he joined his father's multi-million dollar company two years later, stay at this physical level after having stepped back and out of the competitive arena? Of course not however they can recall the swings, shots and rounds of days gone by and most importantly, the VISIONS & FEELINGS of those swings and shots where as someone who does not have these swings shots and rounds in their bank has nothing to draw on.

Simply, they are at scratch to 4~ because life got in the way.

Though their physical game may wax and wane, however the thoughts, the focus, the VISIONS and the FEELINGS are still there and unlike the physical game, which is harder to turn on and off, they can flip into "Plus Mode" and basically turn back the clock and while they may or may not Play to their past peak level, they can lay a serious whuppin on 99.5%+'of those sharing the tee with em.

My Friend that I mentioned above was a 1.2~ at Oakmont(mostly shats & giggle rounds as he has family and his position as CEO of the ole man's company take up most of his time) went out the week before the '16 Open with Bob Ford, David Fehety and Monte and he was low man with a 66. He then put the sticks away and didn't Play for 5-6 weeks and had a ho-hum 72 in the Inter-Club Swat, which though it is weekly, he might Play 3-4 times a year.

Could he break 85 from the tourney tees at Augusta?

He went 74-77 last season.

As a 2ish~

Then ya have the other group of "scratch" golfers~

Those that have travelled "south" to this level, and while they have probably shot under par, it probably hasn't been in a Tourney or for money, and while they have the swing, the stroke and the game in all likelihood to Play at Plus, what they lack, and I cannot stress enough that if ya haven't "been there done that" you have no friggin clue just how important this is, and that is that they lack the MENTAL game.

Their mind does not have the thoughts, pictures, visions or most importantly, the FEELINGS of a successful stroke/swing to call on as they stand behind the ball and go through their PSR-

A very very very few have "tricked" their mind into believing that they have "been there done that" due to thousands and tens of thousands of mental visualization "reps," so they exhibit the calm confidence and self belief that tells them that they WILL execute this shot, not that they CAN execute the shot.

Hell, anyone CAN execute a shot, and maybe do it under pressure, but to Play at the level necessary to Play at Plus?

Nah, ain't gonna happen, not under Competieve Pressure.

So this takes me back to the OP's question(You guys should know me and my round the valley way of getting there😂😂)-

It depends....

If it's a Southerner, nope, probably not, at least consistently.

If it's a Northerner, like my Bud or Thrill?

I'll bet on em every single time👍

Stay well Gals & Gents🍻

My Best,
RP

Edited by Forged4ever, 18 August 2017 - 10:22 AM.

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#89 Axman55

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 10:06 AM

I think it would totally depend on the green speeds. No practice on greens with that much slope at those speeds? Forget it. I'm a decent player (not a scratch by any means) and recently played a friends club where the greens run 12-13. I'm a muny guy where if the greens reach 10 they are "fast". Total shock to the system. Squeaked out a 78 with like five 3 putts. When that first putt sails past the cup 12 feet you are on your heels the rest of the day!
If he's a scratch he can get it around the course fine. Little rough, wide fairways, and he seen the course on TV a million times. It's all about the short game at that point.
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#90 Shilgy

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 10:21 AM

 Forged4ever, on 15 August 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

Exactly!!

This is obviously just my .03 worth and we've addressed this in various forms and scenarios previously, i.e., "4~ versus LPGA Player," etc. and while the numbers have changed, the "game's" still the same, lol.

My thoughts are that there are two types of "scratches," one who has traveled "North" to that territory from "Plus," some, such as Thrill and the guy that I'm about to speak of(again, lol), having been deeper than others, though "Elite" and "Competitive" Plus Ams, of which I would put my old self in the "Competitive" category though below Elite, have "been there done that" to varying degrees and levels.

Do many, such as Thrill and my Friend, who was a DI AA, Walker Cupper and had his Tour card for two seasons(1986 & 1987) before he tried to "perfect" his swing and, well, he joined his father's multi-million dollar company two years later, stay at this physical level after having stepped back and out of the competitive arena? Of course not however they can recall the swings, shots and rounds of days gine by where as someone who does not have these swings shots and rounds in their bank has nothing to draw on.

Simply, they are at scratch to 4~ because life got in the way.

Though their physical game may wax and wane, however the thoughts, the focus, the VISIONS and the FEELINGS are still there and unlike the physical game, which is harder to turn on and off, they can flip into "Plus Mode" and basically turn back the clock and while they may or may not Play to their past peak level, they can lay a serious whuppin on 99.5%+'of those sharing the tee with em.

My fiend that I mentioned above was a 1.2~ at Oakmont(mostly shats & giggle rounds as he as family and his position as CEO of the ole man's company take up most of his time) went out the week before the '16 Open with Bob Ford, David Fehety and Monte and he was low man with a 66. He then put the sticks away and didn't Play for 5-6 weeks and had a ho-hum 72 in the Inter-Club Swat, which though it is weekly, he might Play 3-4 times a year.

Could he break 85 from the tourney tees at Augusta?

He went 74-77 last season.

As a 2ish~

Then ya have the other group of "scratch" golfers~

Those that have travelled "south" to this level, and while they have probably shot under par, it probably hasn't been in a Tourney or for money, and while they have the swing, the stroke and the game in all likelihood to Play at Plus, what they lack, and I cannot stress enough that if ya haven't "been there done that" you have no friggin clue just how important this is, and that is that they lack the MENTAL game.

Their mind does not have the thoughts, pictures, visions or most importantly, the FEELINGS of a successful stroke/swing to call on as they stand behind the ball and go through their PSR-

A very very very few have "tricked" their mind into believing that they have "been there done that" due to thousands and tens of thousands of mental visualization "reps," so they exhibit the calm confidence and self belief that tells them that they WILL execute this shot, not that they CAN execute the shot.

Hell, anyone CAN execute a shot, and maybe do it under pressure, but to Play at the level necessary to Play at Plus?

Nah, ain't gonna happen, not under Competieve Pressure.

So this takes me back to the OP's question(You guys should know me and my round the valley way of getting there😂😂)-

It depends....

If it's a Southerner, nope, probably not, at least consistently.

If it's a Northerner, like my Bud or Thrill?

I'll bet on em every single time👍

Stay well Gals & Gents🍻

My Best,
RP
Hmmm, a 1.2 shooting 5.2 and 2.2 below his cap at Augusta from the tourney tees on consecutive days? If I have been losing to him at home I want my money back.  :)

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