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When must, or when should a player inform of a penalty


47 replies to this topic

#1 gretch

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 01:44 PM

Is it required, or just good etiquette to inform FC's or opponents immediately of a penalty incurred?

Immediately when it happened, or is after the hole ok when providing score for the hole?

I have a specific thing that happened in mind, but not sure it is even relevant to the question at hand.  NOT saying so  immediately was indeed a possible advantage however.


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#2 raynorfan1

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 02:20 PM

In match play, I don't think you're under any specific obligation to report a penalty until the end of the hole, unless your opponent asks you how many strokes you've taken, in which case you must give a correct answer including penalty strokes.

In stroke play, you need to tell your marker about a penalty "as soon as is practicable"...and in the real world, your marker is very frequently a FC.

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#3 gretch

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 02:28 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 11 August 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

In match play, I don't think you're under any specific obligation to report a penalty until the end of the hole, unless your opponent asks you how many strokes you've taken, in which case you must give a correct answer including penalty strokes.

In stroke play, you need to tell your marker about a penalty "as soon as is practicable"...and in the real world, your marker is very frequently a FC.

Interesting that's how it is, as it is MUCH more important to know immediately in match play.  In stroke play you aren't nearly as likely to change your chosen shot or strategy based on what your FC may lie.


Which of course brings up the etiquette part of this.  If what raynorfan said is accurate, what is everyones opinion on withholding this information as a player watches a opponent play a shot that may be chosen based on their incorrect assumption of what they lie?

Edited by gretch, 11 August 2017 - 03:38 PM.


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#4 raynorfan1

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 02:51 PM

View Postgretch, on 11 August 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

Which of course brings up the etiquette part of this.  If what raynorfan said is accurate, what is everyones opinion on withholding this information as you watch a opponent play a shot that may be chosen based on their incorrect assumption of what you lie?

Or on the flipside, at what point is volunteering the information crossing the line into advice..."you really should ask me what I'm lying here..."

IMHO it's not your responsibility to keep your match play competitor informed unless there is a real possibility that there's no way for them to know that you broke the rule. Say you brushed a tiny bit of sand in a bunker in a backswing - I think you should let them know as soon as it's happened. But not required.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where a player might incorrectly concede a putt based on not knowing about a penalty...

Edited by raynorfan1, 11 August 2017 - 02:55 PM.


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#5 Cancun

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 03:01 PM

Your answer is in Rule 9... you may find the full text here: http://www.usga.org/...s.html#!rule-09

In few words: In match play, if a player fails to inform his opponent as soon as practicable that he incured a penalty, he loses the hole (unless he was obviouslly proceeding under a Rule involving a penalty and he was observed by his opponent, or he corrects his mistake before his opponent makes his next stroke.

In stroke play, a competitor who has incurred a penalty SHOULD inform his marker as soon as practicable


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#6 Cancun

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 03:05 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 11 August 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

View Postgretch, on 11 August 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

Which of course brings up the etiquette part of this.  If what raynorfan said is accurate, what is everyones opinion on withholding this information as you watch a opponent play a shot that may be chosen based on their incorrect assumption of what you lie?

Or on the flipside, at what point is volunteering the information crossing the line into advice..."you really should ask me what I'm lying here..."

IMHO it's not your responsibility to keep your match play competitor informed unless there is a real possibility that there's no way for them to know that you broke the rule. Say you brushed a tiny bit of sand in a bunker in a backswing - I think you should let them know as soon as it's happened. But not required.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where a player might incorrectly concede a putt based on not knowing about a penalty...

Nothing to do with advice... at all. I strongly suggest reading Rule 9 (the link I posted above and it's a short read). In match play, where your opponent's strategy may vary depending on what you do, he is entitled to be informed of any enalty incurred, even if he doesn't ask. Not telling him is considered as "giving wrong information", thus losing the hole.

In stroke play, where you're playing against other players not present, there's no penalty but they suggest to inform your marker as soon as practicable, which makes total sense to me.

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#7 MaccaRayDudley

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 03:09 PM

View Postgretch, on 11 August 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

Is it required, or just good etiquette to inform FC's or opponents immediately of a penalty incurred?

Immediately when it happened, or is after the hole ok when providing score for the hole?

I have a specific thing that happened in mind, but not sure it is even relevant to the question at hand.  NOT saying so  immediately was indeed a possible advantage however.

Should be reported immediately.  Why wouldn't you do that?

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#8 raynorfan1

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 03:23 PM

View PostCancun, on 11 August 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

Your answer is in Rule 9... you may find the full text here: http://www.usga.org/...s.html#!rule-09

In few words: In match play, if a player fails to inform his opponent as soon as practicable that he incured a penalty, he loses the hole (unless he was obviouslly proceeding under a Rule involving a penalty and he was observed by his opponent, or he corrects his mistake before his opponent makes his next stroke.

In stroke play, a competitor who has incurred a penalty SHOULD inform his marker as soon as practicable

I don't think this is quite right. The rule is:

a. Information as to Strokes Taken


An opponent is entitled to ascertain from the player, during the play of a hole, the number of strokes he has taken and, after play of a hole, the number of strokes taken on the hole just completed.


So the opponent is entitled to ascertain from the player - but in my read of those words, the opponent has to ask the player the number of strokes taken. And the player must honestly answer (or he would be giving wrong information). But I don't think "entitled to ascertain" means that the player needs to give a running commentary of what their score is.

Edited by raynorfan1, 11 August 2017 - 03:23 PM.


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#9 jlbos83

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 03:31 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 11 August 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

View PostCancun, on 11 August 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

Your answer is in Rule 9... you may find the full text here: http://www.usga.org/...s.html#!rule-09

In few words: In match play, if a player fails to inform his opponent as soon as practicable that he incured a penalty, he loses the hole (unless he was obviouslly proceeding under a Rule involving a penalty and he was observed by his opponent, or he corrects his mistake before his opponent makes his next stroke.

In stroke play, a competitor who has incurred a penalty SHOULD inform his marker as soon as practicable

I don't think this is quite right. The rule is:

a. Information as to Strokes Taken


An opponent is entitled to ascertain from the player, during the play of a hole, the number of strokes he has taken and, after play of a hole, the number of strokes taken on the hole just completed.


So the opponent is entitled to ascertain from the player - but in my read of those words, the opponent has to ask the player the number of strokes taken. And the player must honestly answer (or he would be giving wrong information). But I don't think "entitled to ascertain" means that the player needs to give a running commentary of what their score is.
I agree with Cancun, upon actually reading 9-2 b.(i)

A player is deemed to have given wrong information if he:



A player is deemed to have given wrong information if he:

(i) fails to inform his opponent as soon as practicable that he has incurred a penalty, unless (a) he was obviously proceeding under a Rule involving a penalty and this was observed by his opponent, or (b) he corrects the mistake before his opponent makes his next stroke; or

Edited by jlbos83, 11 August 2017 - 03:32 PM.

Jeff, an Arizona hacker

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#10 raynorfan1

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 03:33 PM

View Postjlbos83, on 11 August 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 11 August 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

View PostCancun, on 11 August 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

Your answer is in Rule 9... you may find the full text here: http://www.usga.org/...s.html#!rule-09

In few words: In match play, if a player fails to inform his opponent as soon as practicable that he incured a penalty, he loses the hole (unless he was obviouslly proceeding under a Rule involving a penalty and he was observed by his opponent, or he corrects his mistake before his opponent makes his next stroke.

In stroke play, a competitor who has incurred a penalty SHOULD inform his marker as soon as practicable

I don't think this is quite right. The rule is:

a. Information as to Strokes Taken


An opponent is entitled to ascertain from the player, during the play of a hole, the number of strokes he has taken and, after play of a hole, the number of strokes taken on the hole just completed.


So the opponent is entitled to ascertain from the player - but in my read of those words, the opponent has to ask the player the number of strokes taken. And the player must honestly answer (or he would be giving wrong information). But I don't think "entitled to ascertain" means that the player needs to give a running commentary of what their score is.
I agree with Cancun, upon actually reading 9-2 b.(i)

A player is deemed to have given wrong information if he:



A player is deemed to have given wrong information if he:

(i) fails to inform his opponent as soon as practicable that he has incurred a penalty, unless (a) he was obviously proceeding under a Rule involving a penalty and this was observed by his opponent, or (b) he corrects the mistake before his opponent makes his next stroke; or

Agree.

I missed that part of the rule.


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#11 Newby

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 03:33 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 11 August 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:


The rule is:

a. Information as to Strokes Taken

An opponent is entitled to ascertain from the player, during the play of a hole, the number of strokes he has taken and, after play of a hole, the number of strokes taken on the hole just completed.

The relevant rule is 9-2b(i) Wrong Information
. Did you not read it?


9-2b(i) A player must not give wrong information to his opponent. If a player gives wrong information, he loses the hole.

A player is deemed to have given wrong information if he:

opponent as soon as practicable that he has incurred a penalty, unless (a) he was obviously proceeding under a Rule involving a penalty and this was observed by his opponent, or (b) he corrects the mistake before his opponent makes his next stroke

Edited by Newby, 11 August 2017 - 03:36 PM.


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#12 BenoGolf

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 03:40 PM

In reviewing a decision on Rule 9-2, I interpret that the FC should provide the information of a penalty taken unless it was reasonable for the individual to assume that his FC saw the infraction.

9-2/1  

Meaning of "As Soon as Practicable" in Rule 9-2


Rule 9-2b(i) requires a player who has incurred a penalty to inform his opponent "as soon as practicable." This phrase is purposely broad so as to allow for consideration of the circumstances in each situation, especially the proximity of the player to his opponent. Thus, informing the opponent "as soon as practicable" of a penalty incurred does not, in all circumstances mean that the player must do so before the opponent plays his next stroke.

With that in mind, I would interpret this that if a player was in a sandtrap and inadvertently brush sand on their back swing, it would most likely that their FC would not have seen that and therefore, the player should inform their FC that the player is taking a penalty.  However, if the player hits a ball into lateral hazard and it is clear that the FC is observing the player taking a drop, I would think it would not be necessary for that player to informed the FC as the FC had clearly observed the drop.

Thoughts?

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#13 Wendy123

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 04:51 PM

As others have pointed out, Rule 9 covers this.

It's entirely different for match play and stroke play!

In match play you MUST inform your opponent of any penalty as soon as practible, unless it's obvious that you're proceeding under a rule that involves a penalty. Failure to do so means you lose the hole for giving wrong information.

In stroke play you only need to inform your marker of your score at the completion of the hole. That's it. Nothing more required.

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#14 rogolf

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 04:55 PM

View PostBenoGolf, on 11 August 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

In reviewing a decision on Rule 9-2, I interpret that the FC should provide the information of a penalty taken unless it was reasonable for the individual to assume that his FC saw the infraction.

9-2/1  

Meaning of "As Soon as Practicable" in Rule 9-2


Rule 9-2b(i) requires a player who has incurred a penalty to inform his opponent "as soon as practicable." This phrase is purposely broad so as to allow for consideration of the circumstances in each situation, especially the proximity of the player to his opponent. Thus, informing the opponent "as soon as practicable" of a penalty incurred does not, in all circumstances mean that the player must do so before the opponent plays his next stroke.
With that in mind, I would interpret this that if a player was in a sandtrap and inadvertently brush sand on their back swing, it would most likely that their FC would not have seen that and therefore, the player should inform their FC that the player is taking a penalty.  However, if the player hits a ball into lateral hazard and it is clear that the FC is observing the player taking a drop, I would think it would not be necessary for that player to informed the FC as the FC had clearly observed the drop.

Thoughts?

The Decision you've quoted refers to "opponent", which is only in match play.  The Rule is clear on match play - wrong information = loss of hole.
You then go on to discuss FC, which can only be stroke play..
Terminology is important in applying the Rules.

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#15 teejaywhy

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 05:21 PM

Well, I learned something new today. "Practicable" is a word.


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#16 QEight

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 11:41 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 11 August 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

IMHO it's not your responsibility to keep your match play competitor informed unless there is a real possibility that there's no way for them to know that you broke the rule. Say you brushed a tiny bit of sand in a bunker in a backswing - I think you should let them know as soon as it's happened. But not required.

It would be great to grind par5 and then after putting out opponent says "yeah, you would have lost but btw I brushed the sand in that fw bunker..."

But I am glad this is now sorted.
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#17 lchang

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 01:31 AM

If it's not a penalty situation but one where you whiff or barely move the ball out of a bunker or something like that out of the view of your match play opponent... in that case, is it required or good etiquette to tell your match play opponent? Or neither?

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#18 Newby

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 02:02 AM

View Postlchang, on 12 August 2017 - 01:31 AM, said:

If it's not a penalty situation but one where you whiff or barely move the ball out of a bunker or something like that out of the view of your match play opponent... in that case, is it required or good etiquette to tell your match play opponent? Or neither?
Surprisingly, the rules do not seem to cover the situation. But given that the opponent has a right to know the score and has no reason to believe the player has a made a counting stroke, I would rule a serious breach of etiquette under 33/7.

Edited by Newby, 12 August 2017 - 02:03 AM.


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#19 Stuart G.

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 04:26 AM

View PostNewby, on 12 August 2017 - 02:02 AM, said:

View Postlchang, on 12 August 2017 - 01:31 AM, said:

If it's not a penalty situation but one where you whiff or barely move the ball out of a bunker or something like that out of the view of your match play opponent... in that case, is it required or good etiquette to tell your match play opponent? Or neither?
Surprisingly, the rules do not seem to cover the situation. But given that the opponent has a right to know the score and has no reason to believe the player has a made a counting stroke, I would rule a serious breach of etiquette under 33/7.

Sorry, Newby - but I don't see anything in the rules to support that it would be considered a serious breach at all and think 9-2a covers that adequately.  The basis and I believe the spirit of the rule is that an opponent is entitled the information anytime they want it - it doesn't say you are required to inform your opponent of every actual (non penalty) stroke you take.  If some play takes place out of their view, it's their responsibility to get up to speed, not yours.   Yes, it's considered polite in some circles (or maybe the 'gentlemanly' thing to do) but it's not a requirement under the rules.

Edited by Stuart G., 12 August 2017 - 05:03 AM.


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#20 PerseveringGolf

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 04:31 AM

rules are rules but common sense and fairplay should prevail and inform your FC or referee immediately you incur a penalty, not to do so is just not in the spirit of the game and smacks of covert 'cheating' in matchplay


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#21 Newby

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 06:20 AM

View PostStuart G., on 12 August 2017 - 04:26 AM, said:

If some play takes place out of their view, it's their responsibility to get up to speed, not yours.   Yes, it's considered polite in some circles (or maybe the 'gentlemanly' thing to do) but it's not a requirement under the rules.

I agree, the rules do not require a player to confirm with their opponent the number of strokes he has taken. He is simply entitled to. For a player, on the other side of the fairway completely out of site, to deliberately not inform his opponent he has just whiffed is more than ungentlemanly. I would suggest that most committees would take a very dim view of it and as there is no other penalty option, I would suggest they would go for 33-7.

Would you really ask your opponent how many strokes it took him to get out of the jungle/bunker? You would be questioning his integrity.

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#22 rogolf

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 08:59 AM

View PostNewby, on 12 August 2017 - 06:20 AM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 12 August 2017 - 04:26 AM, said:

If some play takes place out of their view, it's their responsibility to get up to speed, not yours.   Yes, it's considered polite in some circles (or maybe the 'gentlemanly' thing to do) but it's not a requirement under the rules.

I agree, the rules do not require a player to confirm with their opponent the number of strokes he has taken. He is simply entitled to. For a player, on the other side of the fairway completely out of site, to deliberately not inform his opponent he has just whiffed is more than ungentlemanly. I would suggest that most committees would take a very dim view of it and as there is no other penalty option, I would suggest they would go for 33-7.

Would you really ask your opponent how many strokes it took him to get out of the jungle/bunker? You would be questioning his integrity.

I think your approach is very severe and unnecessary.  The player has a right to ask his opponent how many strokes he's taken to that point, and the opponent must answer correctly.  "Integrity", imo, is irrelevant.

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#23 Newby

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 10:02 AM

If the player had no reason to believe his opponent had whiffed, why would he ask for the score?

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#24 QEight

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 10:54 AM

Long time a go I was in a very deep bunker and touched the sand. I told the opponent I had lost the hole.

Why would I not tell him but wait him to ask?
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#25 Newby

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 12:49 PM

View PostQEight, on 12 August 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

Long time a go I was in a very deep bunker and touched the sand. I told the opponent I had lost the hole.

Why would I not tell him but wait him to ask?

I'm sure you would but others wouldn't.


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#26 Stuart G.

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 01:45 PM

View PostNewby, on 12 August 2017 - 06:20 AM, said:

Would you really ask your opponent how many strokes it took him to get out of the jungle/bunker? You would be questioning his integrity.

Yes, I really would - every single time I myself was not (or could not) be aware of how many strokes he took.   Why would I make any assumptions about anything my opponent did if I couldn't see it?   If I did, that would be my mistake, not my opponents.

And agree with rogolf it has nothing to do with integrity.  Integrity only comes into play if he had told me something and I questioned it.

Nor can I find anything to support your claim that 33-7 would be warranted.  If you have something specific from the rules that you've found that you think justifies that ruling, feel free to share it.   Actually, I don't see anything to indicate that it would even be a minor breach of etiquette, much less a serious one.   And it usually takes multiple offenses of a serious breach of etiquette to warrant DQ under 33-7 (not just a single breach) according to dec 33-7/8.

Edited by Stuart G., 12 August 2017 - 01:50 PM.


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#27 rogolf

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 05:26 PM

View PostNewby, on 12 August 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

If the player had no reason to believe his opponent had whiffed, why would he ask for the score?

So that fully understands the status of the hole being played?  Seems logical to me.  The opponent has no responsibility to report a whiff, and not doing so is not a breach of the etiquette section of the Rule book.

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#28 gretch

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 05:54 PM

View Postrogolf, on 12 August 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 12 August 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

If the player had no reason to believe his opponent had whiffed, why would he ask for the score?

So that fully understands the status of the hole being played?  Seems logical to me. The opponent has no responsibility to report a whiff, and not doing so is not a breach of the etiquette section of the Rule book.

To be sure you really believe what you just typed, ponder the following:

You are in a deep bunker next to the lip on one side fo the green sitting 2, you catch the lip with your club on the way by missing the ball.  you then blast out up near the pin sitting 4.  Your opponent is short sided , deep in the rough, over a bunker on the the other side of the green and assumes you lie 3.  Believing he must get his tough short sided shot up and down he begins to prepare for a difficult, low percentage flop  out of the hay to pull it off.  

Are you just going to let him do this without informing him you actually lie 4, which could change how he might want to play the shot?

It was a similar situation, albeit with a ball deflecting off of a players foot that made me create this thread to get some clarity.  Granted, that part has been made clear from a penalty situation, but I do not see any difference from a etiquette standpoint.

Edited by gretch, 12 August 2017 - 06:01 PM.


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#29 rogolf

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 06:01 PM

View Postgretch, on 12 August 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

View Postrogolf, on 12 August 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 12 August 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

If the player had no reason to believe his opponent had whiffed, why would he ask for the score?

So that fully understands the status of the hole being played?  Seems logical to me.  The opponent has no responsibility to report a whiff, and not doing so is not a breach of the etiquette section of the Rule book.

To be sure you really believe what you just typed, ponder the following:

You are in a deep bunker next to the lip on one side fo the green sitting 2, you catch the lip with your club on the way by missing the ball.  you then blast out up near the pin sitting 4.  Your opponent is short sided over a bunker the the other side of the green and assumes you lie 3.  Believing he must get his tough short sided shot up and down he begins to prepare for a difficult, low percentage flop to pull it off.  

Are you just going to let him do this without informing him you actually lie 4, which could change how he might want to play the shot?

It was a similar situation, albeit with a ball deflecting off of a players foot that made me create this thread to get some clarity.  Granted, that part has been made clear from a penalty situation, but I do not see any difference from a etiquette standpoint.
In answer to your direct question, yes, I'm permitted to let him do this without informing him - I have no obligation to inform him how many strokes I've taken unless penalty strokes that he did not observe are involved.  He has the right to ask, and I have the responsibility to answer correctly, but if no penalty stroke is involved, it's all on his broad shoulders.  That's what the Rules of golf say.

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#30 sui generis

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 06:07 PM

View Postgretch, on 12 August 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

View Postrogolf, on 12 August 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 12 August 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

If the player had no reason to believe his opponent had whiffed, why would he ask for the score?

So that fully understands the status of the hole being played?  Seems logical to me. The opponent has no responsibility to report a whiff, and not doing so is not a breach of the etiquette section of the Rule book.

To be sure you really believe what you just typed, ponder the following:

You are in a deep bunker next to the lip on one side fo the green sitting 2, you catch the lip with your club on the way by missing the ball.  you then blast out up near the pin sitting 4.  Your opponent is short sided , deep in the rough, over a bunker on the the other side of the green and assumes you lie 3.  Believing he must get his tough short sided shot up and down he begins to prepare for a difficult, low percentage flop  out of the hay to pull it off.  

Are you just going to let him do this without informing him you actually lie 4, which could change how he might want to play the shot?

It was a similar situation, albeit with a ball deflecting off of a players foot that made me create this thread to get some clarity.  Granted, that part has been made clear from a penalty situation, but I do not see any difference from a etiquette standpoint.

Tough as it can be at times, a player in a match bears some responsibility for paying attention to his opponent's actions. Order of play makes it possible.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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