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The Ball Goes Too Far


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#31 BdaGolfer

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 11:48 AM

But didn't Jack hit it farther than most? People probably complained about him back then.


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#32 North Butte

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 11:49 AM

View PostBdaGolfer, on 08 August 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

But didn't Jack hit it farther than most? People probably complained about him back then.

Some of this lot would probably have wanted to ban the flying right elbow.
A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

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#33 gvogel

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:04 PM

View PostClintDagger, on 08 August 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

I'm always surprised at how people freak out over this topic.  I don't know what the answer is, but to me it's a legitimate debate.  I'm not sure why they don't have the manufacturers produce a less "hot" ball and pick a tournament or two to try it out and see what the result is.  All of the older guys talk about the tradition rich courses that are now obsolete, put one of those in the rotation in silly season and try out a less juiced ball and see what happens.  It might add a little intrigue to a time of year where a lot of fans are checked out.

I would love to see that happen - and I think that they could also make driver heads with a COR of .700.  It is easy for pros to put their preferred shaft in a different driver head.

This topic is germane because Augusta National is buying enough land to lengthen the 13th hole.  Price is about $20 million.  That is an obscene amount of money to pay for more land when the real problem is that technology is responsible for their perceived problem.
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#34 North Butte

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:14 PM

Yeah, I'm sure Dustin Johnson would be real excited about NOT getting paid by Taylormade to endorse the clubs they market to normal punters. Instead he'd get to play a special Tour-only club that nobody's going to pay him to advertise and that hits the ball shorter.

Hard to see why the Tour wouldn't be all for that!
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#35 zzyzxx33

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:16 PM

How about making the Wood smaller? Instead of 460cc how about 230cc?


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#36 friedegglie

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:20 PM

Just make them throw it off the tee......

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#37 North Butte

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:22 PM

View Postfriedegglie, on 08 August 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

Just make them throw it off the tee......

And if they throw it crooked and it lands in the rough...

DQ Baby!!!
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#38 friedegglie

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:29 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 08 August 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

View Postfriedegglie, on 08 August 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

Just make them throw it off the tee......

And if they throw it crooked and it lands in the rough...

DQ Baby!!!

Exactly, or they have to throw it with their laces tied together.

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#39 jslane57

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:30 PM

OP, I agree. The ball goes very far and is very stable. The modern equipment allows for full on 100% swings. Are there other solutions? Of course. One is bifurcation. This makes the most sense to me. Why take technology from the senior golfer? Heck, add it, allow anchoring and such in amateur golf. But limit the professionals. Another is to limit equipment to where one needs to be more precise with the swing to where 100% swings are fool hardy. Yes, I hit the ball farther than i did 25 years ago, and trust me, it is not the swing or the conditioning, it is technology 100%.
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#40 sefus12

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:33 PM

I wonder how many of the people complaining about distance on the PGA Tour also yearn for the four-corner offense in the NBA and days when 34 home runs would lead the MLB for a season.  

As many have said, course set-up and modern grass/mowing technology are just as big a cause of distance increases as the ball, as is club technology and training techniques.  And why is it so bad that guys are hitting 350 yard drives?  Does it make the game less enjoyable for you?  If it makes you feel bad that you can't hit it that far, then that's your issue, not the PGA's.

And as others have noted, if you try and artificially dial back how far pros hit the ball, all you are doing is hurting the growth of the game.  There are FAR more people who watch golf to see DJ and Rory bomb it than there are that pay to watch ZJ hit a wedge to 5 feet.

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#41 sekrah

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:37 PM

View Postsefus12, on 08 August 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

I wonder how many of the people complaining about distance on the PGA Tour also yearn for the four-corner offense in the NBA and days when 34 home runs would lead the MLB for a season.  

Awful analogy.

Quote

As many have said, course set-up and modern grass/mowing technology are just as big a cause of distance increases as the ball, as is club technology and training techniques.  And why is it so bad that guys are hitting 350 yard drives?  Does it make the game less enjoyable for you?  If it makes you feel bad that you can't hit it that far, then that's your issue, not the PGA's.

Driver/Sand Wedge into every Par 4 is boring.  Yes.  It's not enjoyable to watch.

Quote

And as others have noted, if you try and artificially dial back how far pros hit the ball, all you are doing is hurting the growth of the game.

How does making the fairways narrower and the rough deeper for tour stops hurt the growth of the game?

Quote

There are FAR more people who watch golf to see DJ and Rory bomb it than there are that pay to watch ZJ hit a wedge to 5 feet.

Yes.. that's why TV ratings keep plummeting.

Edited by sekrah, 08 August 2017 - 12:38 PM.


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#42 jslane57

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:38 PM

View Postsefus12, on 08 August 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

I wonder how many of the people complaining about distance on the PGA Tour also yearn for the four-corner offense in the NBA and days when 34 home runs would lead the MLB for a season.  

As many have said, course set-up and modern grass/mowing technology are just as big a cause of distance increases as the ball, as is club technology and training techniques.  And why is it so bad that guys are hitting 350 yard drives?  Does it make the game less enjoyable for you?  If it makes you feel bad that you can't hit it that far, then that's your issue, not the PGA's.

And as others have noted, if you try and artificially dial back how far pros hit the ball, all you are doing is hurting the growth of the game.  There are FAR more people who watch golf to see DJ and Rory bomb it than there are that pay to watch ZJ hit a wedge to 5 feet.
The growth of the game is hurt. Why? Time it takes to play. Cost to play. Courses in metropolitan areas closing. Clearly allowing the equipment to get longer and longer is not helping the game grow. It may not be the reasons it is shrinking, but to say it is helping is folly. What would shorter equipment do? Allow for shorter course set ups. Save time playing. Allow for less maintenance, which could keep increases in price at bay. Who knows what the other side benefits would be. It is not like the long players would no longer be the long players. it is not like the pros wouldn't hit it farther than you. Everything would be the same, just a little less walking to your ball...
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts" -Einstein

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#43 North Butte

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:40 PM

View Postjslane57, on 08 August 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

View Postsefus12, on 08 August 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

I wonder how many of the people complaining about distance on the PGA Tour also yearn for the four-corner offense in the NBA and days when 34 home runs would lead the MLB for a season.  

As many have said, course set-up and modern grass/mowing technology are just as big a cause of distance increases as the ball, as is club technology and training techniques.  And why is it so bad that guys are hitting 350 yard drives?  Does it make the game less enjoyable for you?  If it makes you feel bad that you can't hit it that far, then that's your issue, not the PGA's.

And as others have noted, if you try and artificially dial back how far pros hit the ball, all you are doing is hurting the growth of the game.  There are FAR more people who watch golf to see DJ and Rory bomb it than there are that pay to watch ZJ hit a wedge to 5 feet.
The growth of the game is hurt. Why? Time it takes to play. Cost to play. Courses in metropolitan areas closing. Clearly allowing the equipment to get longer and longer is not helping the game grow. It may not be the reasons it is shrinking, but to say it is helping is folly. What would shorter equipment do? Allow for shorter course set ups. Save time playing. Allow for less maintenance, which could keep increases in price at bay. Who knows what the other side benefits would be. It is not like the long players would no longer be the long players. it is not like the pros wouldn't hit it farther than you. Everything would be the same, just a little less walking to your ball...

You left out one effect.

It would put paid to the USGA's ability to set the rules of the game. The day they announce that the golf ball will henceforth be flying 20% shorter than it does now is the day weekend golfers quit giving a darn what the USGA says.
A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

--Plato

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#44 DLiver

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:41 PM

I'm not convinced there's anything wrong with Pro golf right now. I find it fun to watch, and except for a couple of exceptions (the US Open for example), I find the "grind-it-out-to-finish-two-over" tournaments to be a real snooze fest, especially because the winner is usually the guy who backs up the least.

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#45 jslane57

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:43 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 08 August 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

View Postjslane57, on 08 August 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

View Postsefus12, on 08 August 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

I wonder how many of the people complaining about distance on the PGA Tour also yearn for the four-corner offense in the NBA and days when 34 home runs would lead the MLB for a season.  

As many have said, course set-up and modern grass/mowing technology are just as big a cause of distance increases as the ball, as is club technology and training techniques.  And why is it so bad that guys are hitting 350 yard drives?  Does it make the game less enjoyable for you?  If it makes you feel bad that you can't hit it that far, then that's your issue, not the PGA's.

And as others have noted, if you try and artificially dial back how far pros hit the ball, all you are doing is hurting the growth of the game.  There are FAR more people who watch golf to see DJ and Rory bomb it than there are that pay to watch ZJ hit a wedge to 5 feet.
The growth of the game is hurt. Why? Time it takes to play. Cost to play. Courses in metropolitan areas closing. Clearly allowing the equipment to get longer and longer is not helping the game grow. It may not be the reasons it is shrinking, but to say it is helping is folly. What would shorter equipment do? Allow for shorter course set ups. Save time playing. Allow for less maintenance, which could keep increases in price at bay. Who knows what the other side benefits would be. It is not like the long players would no longer be the long players. it is not like the pros wouldn't hit it farther than you. Everything would be the same, just a little less walking to your ball...

You left out one effect.

It would put paid to the USGA's ability to set the rules of the game. The day they announce that the golf ball will henceforth be flying 20% shorter than it does now is the day weekend golfers quit giving a darn what the USGA says.
Do the weekend golfers care about what the USGA says today? Nope. They just buy the best equipment they can. It would suck to have old equipment go farther than the new stuff for the weekend golfer. Yet another reason for bifurcation...

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts" -Einstein

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#46 Nard_S

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:46 PM

Watching Norman split fairways with persimmon and balata on windy links course was far more impressive than anything that is being done on the tour today. The ball is too straight flying these days making really talented guys do little more than bomb and wedge a round in. It's rather boring. Ball control, spin control on an elite level is great golf. Jack had it right.

Edited by Nard_S, 08 August 2017 - 12:48 PM.


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#47 golfer07840

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:47 PM

View Posthardcaliber, on 08 August 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

A few people have brought up the point that what the pros do and what average players do are two completely different things.

That is totally true but dialing back distance would probably be even more beneficial for the amateur recreational game.  Several great municipal golf courses in my city have recently had to renovate because they are just too short for better recreational players using modern equipment.  The renovations were costly.  In my opinion they detracted from the character and design of the course. Fees also went up, which is probably bad for just about everyone in the current golf economy.


Those local courses did it for A) their own ego and B) because they probably want to attract some sort of USGA type of event there. I play on plenty of courses where the tips are just over 6,800 yards, and I NEVER see anyone hitting from them. And if I do, they probably shouldn't be.

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#48 North Butte

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:49 PM

View PostNard_S, on 08 August 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

Watching Norman split fairways with persimmon and balata on windy links course was far more impressive than anything that is being done on the tour today. The ball is too straight flying these days making really talented guys do little more than bomb and wedge a round in. It's rather boring. Ball control, spin control on an elite level is great golf. Jack had it right.

Nah, that Greg Norman was a hack. He had STEEL SHAFTS for goodness sake.

Back when Bobby Jones was winning the Open, those were real men back then and it took real skill to hit it straight with hickory.

Of course he was NOTHING compared to Young Tom Morris...
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#49 jslane57

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:49 PM

If bifurcation did happen. And there was a "PGA approved" equipment division. It would take zero time for a WRX thread to be titled: I played my best round ever with the shorter ball, anyone else? LOL.
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts" -Einstein

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#50 North Butte

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:53 PM

View Postjslane57, on 08 August 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

If bifurcation did happen. And there was a "PGA approved" equipment division. It would take zero time for a WRX thread to be titled: I played my best round ever with the shorter ball, anyone else? LOL.

Again, nobody is paying Tour players to use and endorse a ball different from what's being sold to punters. It's a complete non-starter, it would be killing the golden goose as far as the players are concerned.

And with no upside to anybody. Do you really think if Tour players started using a Cayman ball that every golf course in the country is going to move the tees up 50 yards and quit maintaining 30 acres of their property? Or that the jokers in the foursome ahead of you next Saturday are going to quit fiddling on the green with their ball alignment line?

A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

--Plato

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#51 golfer07840

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:57 PM

View PostJaNelson38, on 08 August 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

View Postjohnnypro, on 08 August 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

I used to think Nicklaus was just blowing smoke when he argued the ball should be rolled back 5% - 10% but, after watching Firestone this past weekend, I have to agree with him. The freaking ball just goes too far. I know the equipment and teaching methods and physical fitness also play a part but can anyone who has seen golf at Firestone over the past 20+ years believe what these guys were hitting for second shots on most of the holes? Can anyone remember when 18 was a drive and a 4 or 5 iron? Or when even the thought of reaching 16 in two was a daydream?

I know you can't stop progress and you can't build 9,000 yard golf courses but, IMO, something should be done to not have these guys hit driver + wedge on 480 yard par 4's.

If not dialing back the ball, does anyone else have a suggestion?  Limit them to 10 clubs?

Why should we punish these guys for being good?

Three guys out of 76 made it to double digits under par at Firestone, and half the field ended up over par.  You're making it sound like these guys cut up Firestone like it was a muni track.


Ironically, they wouldn't be driving it as far on a muni track. Lack of elevated tees and the fairways aren't cut nearly as short.

But I agree with you overall. The scoring avg in the last 25 years, hasn't changed.

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#52 Shilgy

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:58 PM

View Postnoahdavis_7, on 08 August 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

View Postnochct1, on 08 August 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

View Postnoahdavis_7, on 08 August 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

View Postthe bishop, on 08 August 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

I'm not saying there haven't been improvements to the ball because there obviously have.  But what you are talking about are a combination of not only improvements in the ball but also club technology and modern agronomy.  Those fairways are like freshly oiled bowling lanes.

ABSOLUTELY. I have the same ss as most of those guys (114-120), and I average around 285-290 with my driver. In large part because I get very little roll. Some balls I hit 290 on the courses I play would go 330 on theirs.

It's the courses, not the ball. Dialing down the ball would be awful for the game...

Why would a different ball be awful? The ball companies would produce a pro version of their golf balls. The pro version would fly 20% shorter. The long players still have an advantage. But the courses wouldn't have to change. No need to add new bunkers, tees etc. It would also bring shot making back to golf. While they're at it, they can ban hybrids and Wedges over 56 degrees.

They don't want to slow down the fairways because the tour guys would dominate on courses where they have no fear of the ball rolling into the rough.

And before you argue that golf should have the same rules and equipment for everyone, just remember that almost all of the other major sports have different rules and equipment at the pro level.

LOL... "And boy here's Dustin Johnson with a CRUSHED 270 yard drive! Unbelievable!!" .... It is already hard enough to attract new people to the game. Let's make it significantly less exciting. That's it
WRX would be even worse  insufferable than it is now. DJ 270? Pfffttt I carry further that that! with my old school full length ball.
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#53 Shilgy

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 01:14 PM

Funny-watching Firestone over the weekend and I see Zach Johnson in thick heavy over the shoes rough. Still able to hit it 200 yards to the front of the green. In the old days guys would have had to wedge it out and the commentators would have said "smart play". Today even ZJ works out enough to make a decent play from heavy rough.  So I guess we would all have to go back to unforgiving blades as well?
  Some posts suggest that the long hitters should essentially be penalized by having even deeper rough at 300-350 and make every hole a 90* dogleg. Talk about making history what you want it to be. Did the powers that be do that to Snead? Nicklaus? No they did not. They were able to use their length and it was celebrated.
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#54 golfer07840

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 01:15 PM

View PostClintDagger, on 08 August 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

I'm always surprised at how people freak out over this topic.  I don't know what the answer is, but to me it's a legitimate debate.  I'm not sure why they don't have the manufacturers produce a less "hot" ball and pick a tournament or two to try it out and see what the result is.  All of the older guys talk about the tradition rich courses that are now obsolete, put one of those in the rotation in silly season and try out a less juiced ball and see what happens.  It might add a little intrigue to a time of year where a lot of fans are checked out.

The "Obsolete" course argument I'll never understand. They aren't going out to Pebble Beach (designed in 1919 btw) and shooting 25 under over 18 holes.

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#55 Nard_S

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 01:18 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 08 August 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 08 August 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

Watching Norman split fairways with persimmon and balata on windy links course was far more impressive than anything that is being done on the tour today. The ball is too straight flying these days making really talented guys do little more than bomb and wedge a round in. It's rather boring. Ball control, spin control on an elite level is great golf. Jack had it right.

Nah, that Greg Norman was a hack. He had STEEL SHAFTS for goodness sake.

Back when Bobby Jones was winning the Open, those were real men back then and it took real skill to hit it straight with hickory.

Of course he was NOTHING compared to Young Tom Morris...

Norman in his prime was a great driver of the ball, gave nothing away to Tiger or Jack.

The issue is not distance, the issue is the diminished role wind and side spin has had on the Pro game. When's the last time the wind on 12th hole of Augusta really mattered? Jack and his peers had to throttle back on drives and work shots more because the ball was at the mercy of the wind a lot more.

Today's guys are a talented bunch. Their talent would shine through greater if they faced some of the things Jack and Greg had to. Honestly, 360 yard drives with 460cc Ti and a smart bomb ball is pretty lame in comparison. Bring back the wind and spin issues tour players once faced and things would get a lot more interesting.

Edited by Nard_S, 08 August 2017 - 01:19 PM.


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#56 golfer07840

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 01:23 PM

View Postjslane57, on 08 August 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

View Postsefus12, on 08 August 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

I wonder how many of the people complaining about distance on the PGA Tour also yearn for the four-corner offense in the NBA and days when 34 home runs would lead the MLB for a season.  

As many have said, course set-up and modern grass/mowing technology are just as big a cause of distance increases as the ball, as is club technology and training techniques.  And why is it so bad that guys are hitting 350 yard drives?  Does it make the game less enjoyable for you?  If it makes you feel bad that you can't hit it that far, then that's your issue, not the PGA's.

And as others have noted, if you try and artificially dial back how far pros hit the ball, all you are doing is hurting the growth of the game.  There are FAR more people who watch golf to see DJ and Rory bomb it than there are that pay to watch ZJ hit a wedge to 5 feet.
The growth of the game is hurt. Why? Time it takes to play. Cost to play. Courses in metropolitan areas closing. Clearly allowing the equipment to get longer and longer is not helping the game grow. It may not be the reasons it is shrinking, but to say it is helping is folly. What would shorter equipment do? Allow for shorter course set ups. Save time playing. Allow for less maintenance, which could keep increases in price at bay. Who knows what the other side benefits would be. It is not like the long players would no longer be the long players. it is not like the pros wouldn't hit it farther than you. Everything would be the same, just a little less walking to your ball...

Mike Davis is that you?

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#57 golfer07840

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 01:25 PM

View PostNard_S, on 08 August 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

Watching Norman split fairways with persimmon and balata on windy links course was far more impressive than anything that is being done on the tour today. The ball is too straight flying these days making really talented guys do little more than bomb and wedge a round in. It's rather boring. Ball control, spin control on an elite level is great golf. Jack had it right.

If it's that easy with this equipment, why aren't we all pros?

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#58 noahdavis_7

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 01:28 PM

It is so funny how all the big names in the Golf industry push more distance, The OEMS, the teachers and coaches, Golf Digest etc. etc. however we have now conjured up this idea more distance is a bad thing.
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#59 cardoustie

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 01:55 PM

It's the courses

Merion was fine as a US Open.  Narrow fairways and some rough .. and SMALL greens.    How about bunkers in the right spots for starters ?  280 out on a dogleg is a joke nowadays

The issue is that the PGA Tour and the casual fan want to see big drives.  The tour dictates tightly mown and dried out fairways.  Fans don't want to see high scores, they want the long ball and lots of birdies with eagle options .. it's all about excitement for non Wrx'rs

My course is 7,000 yards, small greens that are sloped like crazy (and fast) and tight off the tee .. the pro's NEVER eat it up
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#60 Nard_S

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 01:59 PM

View Postgolfer07840, on 08 August 2017 - 01:25 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 08 August 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

Watching Norman split fairways with persimmon and balata on windy links course was far more impressive than anything that is being done on the tour today. The ball is too straight flying these days making really talented guys do little more than bomb and wedge a round in. It's rather boring. Ball control, spin control on an elite level is great golf. Jack had it right.

If it's that easy with this equipment, why aren't we all pros?

I hit the ball farther and straighter than I ever did 25 years ago. Some of it is better technique for sure but just as assuredly Ti driver and modern ball do help quite a bit.

Playing wound balata with Ping Eye 2's was harder for me than using Precept ball with Ram muscle backs. My handicap went down 7 strokes, trust me it wasn't the Rams.

Amateurs really have not improved because we are sold on the virtues of tech. We spend $500 on latest and greatest where back in the bad old days, they spent the doe on lessons. What got lost in the "progress" is golf as a shot making game. It is lost on Tour and it's lost at the municipal. At the very least, the best in the world should still have to utilize it. Would make watching them a lot more fun and interesting. Personally, I'll take high lights of Seve over Dustin any day.


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