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The Ball Goes Too Far


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#1501 rangersgoalie

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:23 PM

Due to my dislike of the USGA and the PGA Tour, I'd love to see the bifurcation happen, and the tour say, nah, we'll keep playing under the current rules!!

By popcorn and watch!!


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#1502 Sean2

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:24 PM

View Postchippa13, on 12 October 2017 - 05:45 PM, said:

Until the Einstein-designed putter goes retail, equipment has not "de-skilled" the game of golf.

Yes. Regardless of what kind of club a golfer plays, he still has to put a good swing on it. Believe it or not, a bad swing can produce topped shots, slices, hooks, fat shots, etc., with the most "forgiving" clubs on Earth.
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#1503 farmer

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:26 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 12 October 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

View Postfarmer, on 12 October 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

Billions spent to alter existing courses?  Seriously doubt that figure.  To pick a year, in 1975, I hovered around a 2 hdcp, wood woods, late 60's Haig's, balata balls for serious play, DT's for everyday.  I was adequately long, but nothing special.  Jump forward 30 years, I was still around a 2.  Even with all the improvements in balls and clubs.  I was 55, but still in very good shape, adequately long, still nothing special.  Why didn't I drop to 0 or a +?  The same reason in 1975 was still in effect in 2005.  Several times a round, I made a bad swing that resulted in a bad shot I could not recover from, and was not good enough to consistently offset those bad shots with exceptional shots.  The ball wasn't holding me back, nor giving me a big boost.  Both balls, balata, or modern solid core multi layer, still went crooked when I hit them crooked.  Length is only relevant if it is controlled.  Modern tour pro's hit it longer than they did 40 years ago because everything is better.  Training, teaching, technology, agronomy, equipment, travel, every single thing is better today.

I really am through arguing any point in the thread. But I would answer your question with this question.  Do you hit it same distance now as then ?
Not even close.  Far longer at 25 with the old stuff.  Short steel shafts, old lofts, wood, crappy balls and all.

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#1504 mosesgolf

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:24 PM

When a GOAT such as Jack and now even MJ say things that denigrate a situation different from their heyday is it sour grapes?

http://www.espn.com/...-super-team-era

MJ is one of my favorite all-time greats but this was unbecoming.  Come on!!!!  MJ you played on a SUPERTEAM your self.

OKC, Houston, Boston are not "garbage teams".  Mr. Nicklaus, I respectfully disagree with your assessment on the golf ball.

Edited by mosesgolf, 13 October 2017 - 05:31 AM.

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#1505 gvogel

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 07:33 AM

View PostNard_S, on 12 October 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

View Postgvogel, on 12 October 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

Just to remind the readers of this thread, Mike Davis (Executive Director of the USGA) said this:

"When I look back at the USGA over the decades, my biggest regret would be what has happened with distance.  It's been the thing, probably more than any, that has been the most harmful to the game.  Billions of dollars have been spent to alter golf courses - and for what?...

"Golf is the only sport I can think of where the equipment changes have continually affected the playing field and the size of it.  That can't be the right thing."

"At a recent innovation symposium in Vancouver, I imagined a future that might have variable-distance golf balls, a concept that could be used under the current Rules of Golf.  It sounds radical, but if you could have, for example, an 18-hole golf course sitting on, say, only 70 acres, it would take you only a couple of hours to play it.  And, by the way, it would be cheaper to maintain because of less labor, less fuel for the mowers, less irrigation and fertilizer.  You start to say, that makes sense.  And in theory those cost savings could be passed along to the golfer."

"Beyond the distance, there also has been the issue of golf equipment making the game easier to play.  Innovation has had so many wonderful benefits for the millions who play the game.  We all love getting that new driver that flies longer and straighter.  It's magical.  On the other hand, innovation has de-skilled the the game at the elite professional and amateur level."

He also went on to envision a reduced distance ball that would make a short, old course such as Myopia Hunt Club, a sporting proposition for an elite player like Dustin Johnson.

So, guess what?  The USGA is discussing the idea.

You can read the whole interview here:

https://www.golfdige...and-the-culture

Yes it has.

OF course it has.  To counteract the easier game from tee to green, they have increased green speeds to make putting harder.  And lengthened courses substantially for elite players.

In order to provide an adequate test to today's tour players, the course needs to be 8,000 yards long.  Hence, the USGA put the US Open at Erin Hills, 7,800 yards.  Brooks was -16.  Even shorter hitting Brian Harmon was -12.  The USGA can't find a golf course long enough to test the modern elite player using today's equipment.  Their alternative is to use a shorter course, trick it up substantially with very high rough and very fast greens and very narrow fairways - and then the guy with the straightest 3-wood or straightest driving iron has a shot.  They take driver out of the game.

I believe that the USGA should change the equipment so that shorter courses become harder to play.  Shorter courses take less time to play, not to mention less cost to maintain.  This would be a good thing, no?

I suspect that some of you drive very fast cars.  And I suspect that without speed limits, some of you would drive your very fast cars much faster than currently.  And I suspect that every once in awhile, the result of that very fast driving would be an accident, with the prospect of injury or loss of life.  So, we live with artificially low speed limits, because as a society we value human life and we are accident averse.

I think that it is time to lower the speed limit on golf, for the good and health of the game.

Edited by gvogel, 13 October 2017 - 07:34 AM.

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#1506 Nard_S

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:20 AM

View Postgvogel, on 13 October 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 12 October 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

View Postgvogel, on 12 October 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

Just to remind the readers of this thread, Mike Davis (Executive Director of the USGA) said this:

"When I look back at the USGA over the decades, my biggest regret would be what has happened with distance.  It's been the thing, probably more than any, that has been the most harmful to the game.  Billions of dollars have been spent to alter golf courses - and for what?...

"Golf is the only sport I can think of where the equipment changes have continually affected the playing field and the size of it.  That can't be the right thing."

"At a recent innovation symposium in Vancouver, I imagined a future that might have variable-distance golf balls, a concept that could be used under the current Rules of Golf.  It sounds radical, but if you could have, for example, an 18-hole golf course sitting on, say, only 70 acres, it would take you only a couple of hours to play it.  And, by the way, it would be cheaper to maintain because of less labor, less fuel for the mowers, less irrigation and fertilizer.  You start to say, that makes sense.  And in theory those cost savings could be passed along to the golfer."

"Beyond the distance, there also has been the issue of golf equipment making the game easier to play.  Innovation has had so many wonderful benefits for the millions who play the game.  We all love getting that new driver that flies longer and straighter.  It's magical.  On the other hand, innovation has de-skilled the the game at the elite professional and amateur level."

He also went on to envision a reduced distance ball that would make a short, old course such as Myopia Hunt Club, a sporting proposition for an elite player like Dustin Johnson.

So, guess what?  The USGA is discussing the idea.

You can read the whole interview here:

https://www.golfdige...and-the-culture

Yes it has.

OF course it has.  To counteract the easier game from tee to green, they have increased green speeds to make putting harder.  And lengthened courses substantially for elite players.

In order to provide an adequate test to today's tour players, the course needs to be 8,000 yards long.  Hence, the USGA put the US Open at Erin Hills, 7,800 yards.  Brooks was -16.  Even shorter hitting Brian Harmon was -12.  The USGA can't find a golf course long enough to test the modern elite player using today's equipment.  Their alternative is to use a shorter course, trick it up substantially with very high rough and very fast greens and very narrow fairways - and then the guy with the straightest 3-wood or straightest driving iron has a shot.  They take driver out of the game.

I believe that the USGA should change the equipment so that shorter courses become harder to play.  Shorter courses take less time to play, not to mention less cost to maintain.  This would be a good thing, no?

I suspect that some of you drive very fast cars.  And I suspect that without speed limits, some of you would drive your very fast cars much faster than currently.  And I suspect that every once in awhile, the result of that very fast driving would be an accident, with the prospect of injury or loss of life.  So, we live with artificially low speed limits, because as a society we value human life and we are accident averse.

I think that it is time to lower the speed limit on golf, for the good and health of the game.

My feeling is there needs to be a higher variability on shots in general.  If a drive has a window of 5* face & path strike to hit fairway, it needs to be dropped to 3* or 4*. There's no doubt 25 years ago the window was harder to go through because of the equipment and no doubt today's players may hit that window easier because of tech and in part  by their own talent. The video camera and digital age has helped in that quite a bit. So it's not really rolling back the ball, it's just tightening what constitutes a good strike. Specifying how the ball is weighted from it's center out and aerodynamic drag are key. The template for those could be the old wound ball minus the wound. Actual distance would not change but more shot making would be in the cards and risk/reward quotient gets higher What's so bad about that?

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#1507 Shilgy

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:36 AM

View PostNard_S, on 13 October 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:


My feeling is there needs to be a higher variability on shots in general.  If a drive has a window of 5* face & path strike to hit fairway, it needs to be dropped to 3* or 4*. There's no doubt 25 years ago the window was harder to go through because of the equipment and no doubt today's players may hit that window easier because of tech and in part  by their own talent. The video camera and digital age has helped in that quite a bit. So it's not really rolling back the ball, it's just tightening what constitutes a good strike. Specifying how the ball is weighted from it's center out and aerodynamic drag are key. The template for those could be the old wound ball minus the wound. Actual distance would not change but more shot making would be in the cards and risk/reward quotient gets higher What's so bad about that?
The smaller window already exists. It is narrower to hit the fairway at 310 than it is at 250.
  As for your ball change what's the point of making it spinnier if it somehow still goes as far? That would just make our weekend games take longer as there would be even more players in the lakes and trees. If you're supporting the ball goes too far you need to shorten it. The question is how to implement the change. It's easy to say the ball goes too far. How do you roll back the ball and still maintain the authority of the USGA? The average player is screaming he is already too short.
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#1508 new2g0lf

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:00 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 12 October 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 12 October 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 12 October 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

View Postchippa13, on 12 October 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

The best golfers in the world couldn't score the same with persimmon versus what they use but you can? This is just getting funny.


nice way to cherry pick one dot that means zero to elevate yourself.....  im trying to speak on a real topic not boast....  ive had this topic in my head for a year and knew it was a mistake to mention it....  anyway as always if you arent part of the herd you have to discuss things that concern you via PM...

whether its believed or not ..there are a segment of us transitional player from older to newer tech that struggles with the in between space that exists.....  the better player here is pulled in both directions and im not the only one... we just choose words carefully as to not turn the flames on.,.   carry on ....  Ill shimmy my elitist self on to the range and get some pracice in while you guys hash it out..
Yes-that is true. You and Tiger and Els and Love would be great examples.  And perhaps you are correct. But...at the elite level to play great golf you still need to hit the center of the clubface squarely. Anything else would lead to missed cuts. So wheter you do that with a blade or a cb or a gi it does not matter.
  Do you ever go into the Tour and Pre-release equipment forum?  Do you have an issue with some of the clubs the guys on the tour play? SGI long irons-hybrids-gi irons and wedges. Mallet putters.


First off.  Let me say In no way shape form or fashion was I insinuating myself should be  in a sentence with those guys.  But In the abstract , and I relative terms I agree and understand the comparison.  Wanted that out there before someone jumped the shark.  Lol.


To answer your question.   I have issue with some As  in they don't fit my eye or game.  It's hard to tell yourself to hit a hybrid. When a 2-3 iron off the deck isn't hard.  

As I said and later deleted I think.  I currently own a set of ap2 that are built to my specs.  I don't hate them. But.   They are aboot a club or a half club short of my mb set.  And it's obvious it's because of spin.  Maybe just new grooves vs old.

Then theres the fact that they just fly straight.  Hard to explain. But they are harder to control or maybe more accurate harder to hit close for me because they just don't compress or launch the same way.  Yet on the range I can hit them dead straight time after time.  Issue on course is I can't make myself aim dead straight at a pin.  I see the ball coming In from the side and not from over the top.  I will give it to this set. They do have enough of a sharp  leading edge to be able to take a divot and compress the ball.  Most irons similar makeme play steeper to just take a divot.

I don't have issue hitting either in the center.  And I'll spare everyone the usually flamed pic of a wear spot.  I got them on every iron.  But again really not trying to brag. Kind of down in a rut mentally and thinking out loud.  

Mallet putters ?  I couldn't putt with one of those if my life depended on it.  4 feet yes. 15 feet = 3 putt. I've got great hands. I'm a feel player.  And the new equipment basically is made to nullify that.  


Anyway. Back to work.  Lol

When I first started programming I used assembly language (my predecessors had to use punch cards), then C, then C++.  It took many years to learn how to proficiently write code so that it would run in the limited memory space of the computers back in the 80's - 90's.

Today PC programmers have unlimited resources within PC's to work with, most of the mundane coding I had to write by hand is now available in class libraries and a lot of code can be generated using visual tools that require almost no programming.  Websites that used to be developed by typing in HTML and CSS are now replaced by WordPress and online tools.  

I could sit back and be bitter that all of the technical and artistic skills I developed to write code in the 80's and 90's has been replaced with online tools and complain that a large percentage of the new programmers wouldn't know how to code a binary tree from scratch if their lives depended on it but I don't.  Instead I've embraced the new tools (some of them are quite good) and I take advantage of the time savings they provide.  

This same experience could be applied to photography (which I'm also very much into) and how digital cameras have changed the art and profession of photography substantially.  With limitless memory you can take 1000's of photos unlike the film days when one had to make each shot as close to perfect due to the cost of film and processing.  We don't even have to get into the whole film processing arena and how Photoshop completely changed the industry and made it so any hack could create beautiful works of art.

Point is you can sit back in your chair and grumble at how the skills you've developed are not as relevant as they once were and that new comers have it so much easier or you can learn from this new generation and maybe improve on the player you are.  You can't turn back time.

Edited by new2g0lf, 13 October 2017 - 09:01 AM.


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#1509 bladehunter

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:11 AM

View Postmosesgolf, on 12 October 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

When a GOAT such as Jack and now even MJ say things that denigrate a situation different from their heyday is it sour grapes?

http://www.espn.com/...-super-team-era

MJ is one of my favorite all-time greats but this was unbecoming.  Come on!!!!  MJ you played on a SUPERTEAM your self.

OKC, Houston, Boston are not "garbage teams".  Mr. Nicklaus, I respectfully disagree with your assessment on the golf ball.

MJ didn't play on any super teams.  The teams he played on where  just super.     Look at salaries for those teams when formed. MJ and pippen only two of note. And pippen don't get paid what he should.    Later they payed a tad more for rodman I'm sure. But the supporting casts were " common players" on any other team on earth.
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#1510 bladehunter

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:17 AM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 13 October 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 12 October 2017 - 02:52 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 12 October 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 12 October 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

View Postchippa13, on 12 October 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

The best golfers in the world couldn't score the same with persimmon versus what they use but you can? This is just getting funny.


nice way to cherry pick one dot that means zero to elevate yourself.....  im trying to speak on a real topic not boast....  ive had this topic in my head for a year and knew it was a mistake to mention it....  anyway as always if you arent part of the herd you have to discuss things that concern you via PM...

whether its believed or not ..there are a segment of us transitional player from older to newer tech that struggles with the in between space that exists.....  the better player here is pulled in both directions and im not the only one... we just choose words carefully as to not turn the flames on.,.   carry on ....  Ill shimmy my elitist self on to the range and get some pracice in while you guys hash it out..
Yes-that is true. You and Tiger and Els and Love would be great examples.  And perhaps you are correct. But...at the elite level to play great golf you still need to hit the center of the clubface squarely. Anything else would lead to missed cuts. So wheter you do that with a blade or a cb or a gi it does not matter.
  Do you ever go into the Tour and Pre-release equipment forum?  Do you have an issue with some of the clubs the guys on the tour play? SGI long irons-hybrids-gi irons and wedges. Mallet putters.


First off.  Let me say In no way shape form or fashion was I insinuating myself should be  in a sentence with those guys.  But In the abstract , and I relative terms I agree and understand the comparison.  Wanted that out there before someone jumped the shark.  Lol.


To answer your question.   I have issue with some As  in they don't fit my eye or game.  It's hard to tell yourself to hit a hybrid. When a 2-3 iron off the deck isn't hard.  

As I said and later deleted I think.  I currently own a set of ap2 that are built to my specs.  I don't hate them. But.   They are aboot a club or a half club short of my mb set.  And it's obvious it's because of spin.  Maybe just new grooves vs old.

Then theres the fact that they just fly straight.  Hard to explain. But they are harder to control or maybe more accurate harder to hit close for me because they just don't compress or launch the same way.  Yet on the range I can hit them dead straight time after time.  Issue on course is I can't make myself aim dead straight at a pin.  I see the ball coming In from the side and not from over the top.  I will give it to this set. They do have enough of a sharp  leading edge to be able to take a divot and compress the ball.  Most irons similar makeme play steeper to just take a divot.    

I don't have issue hitting either in the center.  And I'll spare everyone the usually flamed pic of a wear spot.  I got them on every iron.  But again really not trying to brag. Kind of down in a rut mentally and thinking out loud.  

Mallet putters ?  I couldn't putt with one of those if my life depended on it.  4 feet yes. 15 feet = 3 putt.     I've got great hands. I'm a feel player.  And the new equipment basically is made to nullify that.  


Anyway. Back to work.  Lol

When I first started programming I used assembly language (my predecessors had to use punch cards), then C, then C++.  It took many years to learn how to proficiently write code so that it would run in the limited memory space of the computers back in the 80's - 90's.

Today PC programmers have unlimited resources within PC's to work with, most of the mundane coding I had to write by hand is now available in class libraries and a lot of code can be generated using visual tools that require almost no programming.  Websites that used to be developed by typing in HTML and CSS are now replaced by WordPress and online tools.  

I could sit back and be bitter that all of the technical and artistic skills I developed to write code in the 80's and 90's has been replaced with online tools and complain that a large percentage of the new programmers wouldn't know how to code a binary tree from scratch if their lives depended on it but I don't.  Instead I've embraced the new tools (some of them are quite good) and I take advantage of the time savings they provide.  

This same experience could be applied to photography (which I'm also very much into) and how digital cameras have changed the art and profession of photography substantially.  With limitless memory you can take 1000's of photos unlike the film days when one had to make each shot as close to perfect due to the cost of film and processing.  We don't even have to get into the whole film processing arena and how Photoshop completely changed the industry and made it so any hack could create beautiful works of art.

Point is you can sit back in your chair and grumble at how the skills you've developed are not as relevant as they once were and that new comers have it so much easier or you can learn from this new generation and maybe improve on the player you are.  You can't turn back time.


All true.


But isn't it just part of the participation trophy society.  Why do we have to like it ?  Isn't there a walll to be hit somewhere that will cutoff the ability of the gifted to rise from anywhere to become whatever they choose ?  The well connected but mediocre human will have the last Morsel of the upper hand ?    I'm guessing that's the end goal ?!  interesting thoughts.   Adapt or die.  But when it's all automated the choice to adapt will go away. Then what ?  Die I suppose will be it.

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#1511 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:19 AM

Oh lord, we're full on into comic book adaptation movie land here.
A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

--Plato

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#1512 mosesgolf

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:32 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 October 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

View Postmosesgolf, on 12 October 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

When a GOAT such as Jack and now even MJ say things that denigrate a situation different from their heyday is it sour grapes?

http://www.espn.com/...-super-team-era

MJ is one of my favorite all-time greats but this was unbecoming.  Come on!!!!  MJ you played on a SUPERTEAM your self.

OKC, Houston, Boston are not "garbage teams".  Mr. Nicklaus, I respectfully disagree with your assessment on the golf ball.

MJ didn't play on any super teams.  The teams he played on where  just super. Look at salaries for those teams when formed. MJ and pippen only two of note. And pippen don't get paid what he should. Later they payed a tad more for rodman I'm sure. But the supporting casts were " common players" on any other team on earth.

Does what they were paid have any bearing on their true talent?  Scotty would've been a superstar in his own right elsewhere.  MJ also had Kerr and Paxon (both very underrated).  1980's Lakers, Celtics, & Pistons were "superteams".    In a sense there is a superteam in golf right now.  :D  And they're not going away.
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#1513 Nard_S

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:52 AM

View PostShilgy, on 13 October 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 13 October 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

My feeling is there needs to be a higher variability on shots in general.  If a drive has a window of 5* face & path strike to hit fairway, it needs to be dropped to 3* or 4*. There's no doubt 25 years ago the window was harder to go through because of the equipment and no doubt today's players may hit that window easier because of tech and in part  by their own talent. The video camera and digital age has helped in that quite a bit. So it's not really rolling back the ball, it's just tightening what constitutes a good strike. Specifying how the ball is weighted from it's center out and aerodynamic drag are key. The template for those could be the old wound ball minus the wound. Actual distance would not change but more shot making would be in the cards and risk/reward quotient gets higher What's so bad about that?
The smaller window already exists. It is narrower to hit the fairway at 310 than it is at 250.
  As for your ball change what's the point of making it spinnier if it somehow still goes as far? That would just make our weekend games take longer as there would be even more players in the lakes and trees. If you're supporting the ball goes too far you need to shorten it. The question is how to implement the change. It's easy to say the ball goes too far. How do you roll back the ball and still maintain the authority of the USGA? The average player is screaming he is already too short.

Nobody is requiring amateurs to play them just like no is requiring them to play Pro Vx1 now. Distance balls attain their straightness and low spin in part to how the mass is distributed inside ball.

As to tighter window now, that's a mirage. The tech has allowed them to air out to 350 with less risk. The ball is straighter, the clubs have higher MOI, the wind is less of a factor. If your talking same ball on 250 or 350, yeah okay, if your talking a ball that will not hold their line as well on slightly off strike, different thing altogether

13

#1514 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 10:02 AM

I love how all the "ball goes too far" people have their own pet theory of how they would engineer their dream ball. The USGA/R&A have absolute control over how far the ball is allowed to go. They could at the stroke of a pen make the ball go 1% shorter, 5% shorter, 20% shorter, whatever they like.

Yet I absolutely 100% guarantee you that within a year or two (if not sooner) these guys would be complaining "It still goes too far" or "It still goes too straight" or the "the mass is still distributed too equally" or some other made-up complaint.

As I've said all along, the whole thing comes down to "If a lumpy, crooked, overspinning, short golf ball was good enough for Jack Nickalus it ought to be good enough for anyone now and forever more and a better ball destroys the game, makes bad players look better, costs billions and billions of dollars and causes every single symptom of cholera".

Edited by North Butte, 13 October 2017 - 10:05 AM.

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#1515 jslane57

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 10:24 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 October 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

I love how all the "ball goes too far" people have their own pet theory of how they would engineer their dream ball. The USGA/R&amp;A have absolute control over how far the ball is allowed to go. They could at the stroke of a pen make the ball go 1% shorter, 5% shorter, 20% shorter, whatever they like.

Yet I absolutely 100% guarantee you that within a year or two (if not sooner) these guys would be complaining "It still goes too far" or "It still goes too straight" or the "the mass is still distributed too equally" or some other made-up complaint.

As I've said all along, the whole thing comes down to "If a lumpy, crooked, overspinning, short golf ball was good enough for Jack Nickalus it ought to be good enough for anyone now and forever more and a better ball destroys the game, makes bad players look better, costs billions and billions of dollars and causes every single symptom of cholera".
This bullish attitude is so not helpful in the context of any discussion about anything. Yet has sadly become norm in our world. Yes the USGA and the R&A could enact change, and I hope they do.

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#1516 chippa13

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 10:28 AM

Man, I didn't know I was going to contract cholera. My whole opinion on this topic has changed.

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#1517 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 10:33 AM

Well, to be honest it only causes the Cholera symptoms in susceptible individuals. Most notably Jason Day.
A sensible man will realize that the eyes may be confused in two ways---by a change from light to darkness or from darkness to light; and he will recognize the same thing happens to the soul.

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#1518 chippa13

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 10:55 AM

Good to know. I could handle rickets or beri beri, maybe even scurvy, but I draw the line at cholera.

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#1519 bladehunter

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 11:00 AM

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 October 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Oh lord, we're full on into comic book adaptation movie land here.


Yea.  I can play the what if game for days. With any topic.


I guess my actual thoughts on the point above by new2golf is that in my industry change is rapid and if affective ,  welcomed.  I have to stay with trends or even if I can make the trends.   But I see a lot of this change as change for the sake of change. Or in other words change for profit not at all because it benefits thegame itself.  All this grow thegame stuff is code for "make us more money " it isn't because anyone actually wants to see their course more crowded etc. and sure some courses would havevto die. But that's another subject.  

The integrity of thegame itself is the question.   Sure it's an ineresting discussion as to where the advances should have stopped.  But I think it's easy for all sides to know that it has jumped the shark at this point.  Whether it should have stopped in 2001 or 1971 is personal preference.  But it is gone , caput , only to be realized in the future when thegame starts to die like other games before it ( NASCAR , baseball etc).  Neither are dead yet. But each has to now subsidize their income with any number of scemes , upsells and gimmicks . Why ? Because each cooked and ate the goose that had been laying the eggs that they depended on for the core fan to stay.  Golf will do the same.  Once the core fan and player is out the newbies they attracted loose interest and poof. No more revenue.  


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#1520 bladehunter

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 11:02 AM

View Postchippa13, on 13 October 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

Good to know. I could handle rickets or beri beri, maybe even scurvy, but I draw the line at cholera.


Eat a lime man !

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#1521 chippa13

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 11:12 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 October 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 October 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Oh lord, we're full on into comic book adaptation movie land here.


Yea.  I can play the what if game for days. With any topic.


I guess my actual thoughts on the point above by new2golf is that in my industry change is rapid and if affective ,  welcomed.  I have to stay with trends or even if I can make the trends.   But I see a lot of this change as change for the sake of change. Or in other words change for profit not at all because it benefits thegame itself.  All this grow thegame stuff is code for "make us more money " it isn't because anyone actually wants to see their course more crowded etc. and sure some courses would havevto die. But that's another subject.  

The integrity of thegame itself is the question.   Sure it's an ineresting discussion as to where the advances should have stopped.  But I think it's easy for all sides to know that it has jumped the shark at this point.  Whether it should have stopped in 2001 or 1971 is personal preference.  But it is gone , caput , only to be realized in the future when thegame starts to die like other games before it ( NASCAR , baseball etc).  Neither are dead yet. But each has to now subsidize their income with any number of scemes , upsells and gimmicks . Why ? Because each cooked and ate the goose that had been laying the eggs that they depended on for the core fan to stay.  Golf will do the same.  Once the core fan and player is out the newbies they attracted loose interest and poof. No more revenue.  

How has the integrity of the game changed? Do technological advancements preclude players from calling penalties on themselves?

21

#1522 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 11:50 AM

Are we talking about televised entertainment (NASCAR, MLB, NBA, etc.) or are we talking about playing golf? Because I would hardly notice if the PGA Tour went away, for me that's just entertainment. Golf is the thing I do 2, 3, 4 times a week whenever I get the chance.

It doesn't matter if Dustin Johnson started hitting the ball 600 yards tomorrow, me and the other old guys at my club will plod along just as we do today.
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--Plato

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#1523 Shilgy

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 11:53 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 October 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 October 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Oh lord, we're full on into comic book adaptation movie land here.


Yea.  I can play the what if game for days. With any topic.


I guess my actual thoughts on the point above by new2golf is that in my industry change is rapid and if affective ,  welcomed.  I have to stay with trends or even if I can make the trends.   But I see a lot of this change as change for the sake of change. Or in other words change for profit not at all because it benefits thegame itself.  All this grow thegame stuff is code for "make us more money " it isn't because anyone actually wants to see their course more crowded etc. and sure some courses would havevto die. But that's another subject.  

The integrity of thegame itself is the question.   Sure it's an ineresting discussion as to where the advances should have stopped.  But I think it's easy for all sides to know that it has jumped the shark at this point.  Whether it should have stopped in 2001 or 1971 is personal preference.  But it is gone , caput , only to be realized in the future when thegame starts to die like other games before it ( NASCAR , baseball etc).  Neither are dead yet. But each has to now subsidize their income with any number of scemes , upsells and gimmicks . Why ? Because each cooked and ate the goose that had been laying the eggs that they depended on for the core fan to stay.  Golf will do the same.  Once the core fan and player is out the newbies they attracted loose interest and poof. No more revenue.  
MLB had their 11th highest attendance last year.  Off about a half percent this year.  Television rating are actually down less than average live television viewing is down.
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23

#1524 gvogel

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:08 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 October 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

Are we talking about televised entertainment (NASCAR, MLB, NBA, etc.) or are we talking about playing golf? Because I would hardly notice if the PGA Tour went away, for me that's just entertainment. Golf is the thing I do 2, 3, 4 times a week whenever I get the chance.

It doesn't matter if Dustin Johnson started hitting the ball 600 yards tomorrow, me and the other old guys at my club will plod along just as we do today.

The interesting thing is that guys like you and me would hardly be affected by a ball roll back, and particularly by a roll back in COR.  I was talking to a long time golf industry supplier who told me that at swing speeds under 105, we hardly benefit from fast face drivers.  Only the golfers who swing over about 110 can really flex the face and gain added distance from thin titanium, say as opposed to playing something like persimmon.

Now I don't doubt that the size of the modern driver, and the larger acceptable sweet spot on the face, has made the game easier for you and me.  But not the COR.

On a ball roll back, again I doubt that you or I would realize much of a difference.  And if we did (do), we could move the tee markers forward.
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24

#1525 Bad9

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:11 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 October 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 October 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Oh lord, we're full on into comic book adaptation movie land here.


Yea.  I can play the what if game for days. With any topic.


I guess my actual thoughts on the point above by new2golf is that in my industry change is rapid and if affective ,  welcomed.  I have to stay with trends or even if I can make the trends.   But I see a lot of this change as change for the sake of change. Or in other words change for profit not at all because it benefits thegame itself.  All this grow thegame stuff is code for "make us more money " it isn't because anyone actually wants to see their course more crowded etc. and sure some courses would havevto die. But that's another subject.  

The integrity of thegame itself is the question.   Sure it's an ineresting discussion as to where the advances should have stopped.  But I think it's easy for all sides to know that it has jumped the shark at this point.  Whether it should have stopped in 2001 or 1971 is personal preference.  But it is gone , caput , only to be realized in the future when thegame starts to die like other games before it ( NASCAR , baseball etc).  Neither are dead yet. But each has to now subsidize their income with any number of scemes , upsells and gimmicks . Why ? Because each cooked and ate the goose that had been laying the eggs that they depended on for the core fan to stay.  Golf will do the same.  Once the core fan and player is out the newbies they attracted loose interest and poof. No more revenue.  

blade I enjoy your posts as they are usually polite and reasoned, even the ones I don't agree with. I think that to say "The integrity of thegame itself is the question." because professional golfers hit the ball further and straighter than those is the past did is going a little over the top.


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#1526 Shilgy

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:12 PM

I feel the suggestions of rolling back the equipment have never been implemented in golf before.  Does anyone have any good examples of a sport where the equipment was rolled back because the players were getting too big or too good?
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26

#1527 North Butte

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:14 PM

View Postgvogel, on 13 October 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 October 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

Are we talking about televised entertainment (NASCAR, MLB, NBA, etc.) or are we talking about playing golf? Because I would hardly notice if the PGA Tour went away, for me that's just entertainment. Golf is the thing I do 2, 3, 4 times a week whenever I get the chance.

It doesn't matter if Dustin Johnson started hitting the ball 600 yards tomorrow, me and the other old guys at my club will plod along just as we do today.

The interesting thing is that guys like you and me would hardly be affected by a ball roll back, and particularly by a roll back in COR.  I was talking to a long time golf industry supplier who told me that at swing speeds under 105, we hardly benefit from fast face drivers.  Only the golfers who swing over about 110 can really flex the face and gain added distance from thin titanium, say as opposed to playing something like persimmon.

Now I don't doubt that the size of the modern driver, and the larger acceptable sweet spot on the face, has made the game easier for you and me.  But not the COR.

On a ball roll back, again I doubt that you or I would realize much of a difference.  And if we did (do), we could move the tee markers forward.

Well then let some manufacturer start selling a low-COR driver and a ball that's 20% shorter than a ProV1. We'll see how successful that particular business plan turns out to be? After all, if nobody would notice a difference then why wouldn't they sell just fine.

It's almost charming the belief you guys have in magic golf balls. They're going to knock 100 yards off Dustin Johnson's combined driver+iron shots on each hole yet some 8-HCP weekend hacker swinging at 100mph won't notice any difference at all. Talk about your unicorns...
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27

#1528 chippa13

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:35 PM

View PostShilgy, on 13 October 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

I feel the suggestions of rolling back the equipment have never been implemented in golf before.  Does anyone have any good examples of a sport where the equipment was rolled back because the players were getting too big or too good?

The only example I know of is the rules on the size of goalie equipment in hockey, but that is an effort to increase scoring. Essentially, it would be the equivalent of increasing the size of the hole in golf.

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#1529 bladehunter

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:59 PM

View PostBad9, on 13 October 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 13 October 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 October 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Oh lord, we're full on into comic book adaptation movie land here.


Yea.  I can play the what if game for days. With any topic.


I guess my actual thoughts on the point above by new2golf is that in my industry change is rapid and if affective ,  welcomed.  I have to stay with trends or even if I can make the trends.   But I see a lot of this change as change for the sake of change. Or in other words change for profit not at all because it benefits thegame itself.  All this grow thegame stuff is code for "make us more money " it isn't because anyone actually wants to see their course more crowded etc. and sure some courses would havevto die. But that's another subject.  

The integrity of thegame itself is the question.   Sure it's an ineresting discussion as to where the advances should have stopped.  But I think it's easy for all sides to know that it has jumped the shark at this point.  Whether it should have stopped in 2001 or 1971 is personal preference.  But it is gone , caput , only to be realized in the future when thegame starts to die like other games before it ( NASCAR , baseball etc).  Neither are dead yet. But each has to now subsidize their income with any number of scemes , upsells and gimmicks . Why ? Because each cooked and ate the goose that had been laying the eggs that they depended on for the core fan to stay.  Golf will do the same.  Once the core fan and player is out the newbies they attracted loose interest and poof. No more revenue.  

blade I enjoy your posts as they are usually polite and reasoned, even the ones I don't agree with. I think that to say "The integrity of thegame itself is the question." because professional golfers hit the ball further and straighter than those is the past did is going a little over the top.


Yea.  I'm a bit magenta currently ( golden girls reference to show I'm well rounded lol).

And I'm cursed with the ability to take any side of an argument and go with it.  Lol.  

But it is questionable in my opinion.  But I do see how that seems over the top compared to most opinions
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29

#1530 bladehunter

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 02:02 PM

View Postgvogel, on 13 October 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 October 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

Are we talking about televised entertainment (NASCAR, MLB, NBA, etc.) or are we talking about playing golf? Because I would hardly notice if the PGA Tour went away, for me that's just entertainment. Golf is the thing I do 2, 3, 4 times a week whenever I get the chance.

It doesn't matter if Dustin Johnson started hitting the ball 600 yards tomorrow, me and the other old guys at my club will plod along just as we do today.

The interesting thing is that guys like you and me would hardly be affected by a ball roll back, and particularly by a roll back in COR.  I was talking to a long time golf industry supplier who told me that at swing speeds under 105, we hardly benefit from fast face drivers.  Only the golfers who swing over about 110 can really flex the face and gain added distance from thin titanium, say as opposed to playing something like persimmon.

Now I don't doubt that the size of the modern driver, and the larger acceptable sweet spot on the face, has made the game easier for you and me.  But not the COR.

On a ball roll back, again I doubt that you or I would realize much of a difference.  And if we did (do), we could move the tee markers forward.

THIS ^^    It's beside the point I guess. But all this above is truth.

17 M1 440 8.5 ( tour issue head ) Fuji Atmos Black 6X ( limited WRX special addition 16/100)
17 M1 15* (tour issue head)  Graphite Design ADDI 8X  
Titleist Custom Grind 2 iron X100
Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
Vokey sm6 copper 53 Vokey 300 series 59   S400
Cameron Newport Beach CT
B330S

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