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The Ball Goes Too Far


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#1141 Pepperturbo

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:50 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 11 September 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:


That may be true.  But if it is then what we have is an artificially maintained bubble. One that should have never been let get this big.  " the game " is played by people who love it.  I'd play with a stick and a rock or anything in between if that's all I had.  Anyone who wouldn't do the same isn't a true fan of the game.  And I'm not in favor of keeping the ones who wouldn't. And why would anyone ?  To line folks pockets ?  Nah.  There's plenty of like minded folks who would keep enough clubs open to play.


But it doesn't matter.  The cats out and gone.  Can't be unseen.

Its too easy to say you'd play with sticks and stones, and call it dedication. :lol:  I have no interest in your sticks and stones, and neither does the majority of golfers.  That in no way suggests I am not or we're not dedicated fans of the game.  Nobody defines that.  At 40, I learned the game hitting 1200-1500 range balls a week. Don't tell me that's not dedication.

Most that talk golf today, just talk.  They have done nothing to affect change in golf.  You are right.  We're not going back to the stone age of golf balls. :beach: have a good day

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#1142 Shilgy

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:23 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 12 September 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

View Postspooky, on 12 September 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

View PostPepperturbo, on 11 September 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

Even with current balls, they feel forced to play shorter tees because they don't hit the ball as far.  Can't imagine if OEM's presented them with a ball that fly's 10-30yds shorter.

That's just ego though - there's nothing wrong with playing appropriate tees. Most lady members don't hit the ball very far and I don't hear them objecting to playing off shorter tees.

Spot on.
True but...no one wants to suddenly be playing a ball that goes 30 yards shorter on a well struck shot. That is not just ego that is essentially learning a new game.  Which is why the oft discussed Masters ball will never come into play. Would you call it "ego" as why the pros would not want to play a ball one week a year? I would think not as their livelihood is at stake and they would not know EXACTLY how the ball will it react on all shots. Will it curve more? Less? How well can you flight it? Half wedges how do they spin? And on and on.  Like I said that is not ego that is learning a different game.
  It all sounds good until you try to decide how to implement roll backs.
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#1143 North Butte

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:32 PM

People seem to confuse woulda, coulda, shoulda thinking with reality.

If nobody had ever played golf with a ball that performs to the max allowed by the current Rules, some lower performance limits woulda, coulda, shoulda been established. And everyone would (mostly) be fine with that.

If USGA/R&A had gotten out ahead of this 4-5 years earlier, anticipated the manufacturing advances that were coming and had established a suitable testing regimen and limits 10% lower performance than they were able to after-the-fact we'd all be none the wiser. That's probably what they woulda, coulda, shoulda done.

All of which is about like saying if you had bought Apple stock the day it was first listed you woulda, coulda, shoulda sell it for a bunch of money now. So what, you didn't and so you can't.

The reality is, you can't force a substantial performance rollback onto millions of golfers just by claiming some pie in the sky stuff about major championship scores, classic golf courses and wishful thinking that somehow the game will get cheaper and faster as a result. They ain't buying. It's 20 years too late for any of that.
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#1144 new2g0lf

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:50 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 September 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

People seem to confuse woulda, coulda, shoulda thinking with reality.

If nobody had ever played golf with a ball that performs to the max allowed by the current Rules, some lower performance limits woulda, coulda, shoulda been established. And everyone would (mostly) be fine with that.

If USGA/R&A had gotten out ahead of this 4-5 years earlier, anticipated the manufacturing advances that were coming and had established a suitable testing regimen and limits 10% lower performance than they were able to after-the-fact we'd all be none the wiser. That's probably what they woulda, coulda, shoulda done.

All of which is about like saying if you had bought Apple stock the day it was first listed you woulda, coulda, shoulda sell it for a bunch of money now. So what, you didn't and so you can't.

The reality is, you can't force a substantial performance rollback onto millions of golfers just by claiming some pie in the sky stuff about major championship scores, classic golf courses and wishful thinking that somehow the game will get cheaper and faster as a result. They ain't buying. It's 20 years too late for any of that.

I'd like to be at PGA Tour meeting when the USGA announces they are rolling back the ball so every pro will realize a 10% loss of distance.  Even worse will be the amateur golfers reactions when they are told all that hard fought distance they worked to achieve will be rolled back and taken away and are told to simply move up on tee box to compensate for the loss of distance.  

You couldn't pay me enough to be associated with the USGA / R&A, I wouldn't be surprised if they were dragged out of their homes and pelted with non-conforming golf balls.

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#1145 North Butte

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:56 PM

Not really. They will just from that moment on the roundly ignored and no longer have any influence over what clubs and balls people play.  In the end, outside of a handful of events they run,they only have peer pressure to enforce their rules.  

Trying to impose a lower performance ball for no particular reason would mean all of MY peers deserting them wholesale.

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#1146 Shilgy

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 04:08 PM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 12 September 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:


I'd like to be at PGA Tour meeting when the USGA announces they are rolling back the ball so every pro will realize a 10% loss of distance.  Even worse will be the amateur golfers reactions when they are told all that hard fought distance they worked to achieve will be rolled back and taken away and are told to simply move up on tee box to compensate for the loss of distance.  

You couldn't pay me enough to be associated with the USGA / R&A, I wouldn't be surprised if they were dragged out of their homes and pelted with non-conforming golf balls.
Agree-and especially at the pro level it is not just the distance that would be an issue. To roll it back would fundamentally change how the ball reacts on other shots as well.
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#1147 BlackDiamondPar5

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 07:25 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 September 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Not really. They will just from that moment on the roundly ignored and no longer have any influence over what clubs and balls people play.  In the end, outside of a handful of events they run,they only have peer pressure to enforce their rules.  

Trying to impose a lower performance ball for no particular reason would mean all of MY peers deserting them wholesale.
That's why I really don't think it would happen without bifurcation. Unless of course they can engineer a ball that doesn't give up a lot of distance for lower swing speeds but reaches a point of diminishing returns for higher swing speeds.

Edited by BlackDiamondPar5, 12 September 2017 - 07:27 PM.


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#1148 bladehunter

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:13 PM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 12 September 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 September 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

People seem to confuse woulda, coulda, shoulda thinking with reality.

If nobody had ever played golf with a ball that performs to the max allowed by the current Rules, some lower performance limits woulda, coulda, shoulda been established. And everyone would (mostly) be fine with that.

If USGA/R&A had gotten out ahead of this 4-5 years earlier, anticipated the manufacturing advances that were coming and had established a suitable testing regimen and limits 10% lower performance than they were able to after-the-fact we'd all be none the wiser. That's probably what they woulda, coulda, shoulda done.

All of which is about like saying if you had bought Apple stock the day it was first listed you woulda, coulda, shoulda sell it for a bunch of money now. So what, you didn't and so you can't.

The reality is, you can't force a substantial performance rollback onto millions of golfers just by claiming some pie in the sky stuff about major championship scores, classic golf courses and wishful thinking that somehow the game will get cheaper and faster as a result. They ain't buying. It's 20 years too late for any of that.

I'd like to be at PGA Tour meeting when the USGA announces they are rolling back the ball so every pro will realize a 10% loss of distance.  Even worse will be the amateur golfers reactions when they are told all that hard fought distance they worked to achieve will be rolled back and taken away and are told to simply move up on tee box to compensate for the loss of distance.  

You couldn't pay me enough to be associated with the USGA / R&A, I wouldn't be surprised if they were dragged out of their homes and pelted with non-conforming golf balls.


lol   im with you all but the " distance they worked for "   ...what is that ?   what work?     gusy in their 50s hit it longer than in their 20s now because of the ball.. no work to it
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#1149 bladehunter

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:18 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 12 September 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

People seem to confuse woulda, coulda, shoulda thinking with reality.

If nobody had ever played golf with a ball that performs to the max allowed by the current Rules, some lower performance limits woulda, coulda, shoulda been established. And everyone would (mostly) be fine with that.

If USGA/R&A had gotten out ahead of this 4-5 years earlier, anticipated the manufacturing advances that were coming and had established a suitable testing regimen and limits 10% lower performance than they were able to after-the-fact we'd all be none the wiser. That's probably what they woulda, coulda, shoulda done.

All of which is about like saying if you had bought Apple stock the day it was first listed you woulda, coulda, shoulda sell it for a bunch of money now. So what, you didn't and so you can't.

The reality is, you can't force a substantial performance rollback onto millions of golfers just by claiming some pie in the sky stuff about major championship scores, classic golf courses and wishful thinking that somehow the game will get cheaper and faster as a result. They ain't buying. It's 20 years too late for any of that.


i agree with you ... the time to have done it is past... that doesnt mean it didnt need to be done....    How many legends of the game need to speak out before its heard as alegitimate gripe?   Just saw Hale Irwin on Feherty remark at the game now as being unrecognizable compared to the 90s...  why ?  the ball....  he says that players now dont consider wind as they once did .. they just take more club and hit it hard....   which i know to be true....    it is what it is....  and you are correct the governing bodies are at least 15 years late if not 20...
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#1150 bladehunter

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:20 PM

View PostPepperturbo, on 12 September 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 11 September 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

That may be true.  But if it is then what we have is an artificially maintained bubble. One that should have never been let get this big.  " the game " is played by people who love it.  I'd play with a stick and a rock or anything in between if that's all I had.  Anyone who wouldn't do the same isn't a true fan of the game.  And I'm not in favor of keeping the ones who wouldn't. And why would anyone ?  To line folks pockets ?  Nah.  There's plenty of like minded folks who would keep enough clubs open to play.


But it doesn't matter.  The cats out and gone.  Can't be unseen.

Its too easy to say you'd play with sticks and stones, and call it dedication. :lol:  I have no interest in your sticks and stones, and neither does the majority of golfers.  That in no way suggests I am not or we're not dedicated fans of the game.  Nobody defines that.  At 40, I learned the game hitting 1200-1500 range balls a week. Don't tell me that's not dedication.

Most that talk golf today, just talk.  They have done nothing to affect change in golf.  You are right.  We're not going back to the stone age of golf balls. :beach: have a good day



so you would quit the game if the ball were brought back?   Im guessing the answer is no.... why ?  because you love it as i do , and as most players do.... sure you would gripe.. but hey you are like me ..thats nothing new...   and the world would still turn

Edited by bladehunter, 12 September 2017 - 10:21 PM.

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#1151 Shilgy

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:46 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 12 September 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

i agree with you ... the time to have done it is past... that doesnt mean it didnt need to be done.... How many legends of the game need to speak out before its heard as alegitimate gripe?   Just saw Hale Irwin on Feherty remark at the game now as being unrecognizable compared to the 90s...  why ?  the ball....  he says that players now dont consider wind as they once did .. they just take more club and hit it hard....   which i know to be true.... it is what it is....  and you are correct the governing bodies are at least 15 years late if not 20...
Guys from the past whine about every sport though. What game hasn't changed from the 70's? Curling? Horse racing? Baseball football hops and hockey are almost unrecognizable from 40+ years ago. It's not always a bad thing but the guys from the past lament the loss of their game.

Edited by Shilgy, 13 September 2017 - 03:11 PM.

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#1152 spooky

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:32 AM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 12 September 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

I'd like to be at PGA Tour meeting when the USGA announces they are rolling back the ball so every pro will realize a 10% loss of distance.  Even worse will be the amateur golfers reactions when they are told all that hard fought distance they worked to achieve will be rolled back and taken away and are told to simply move up on tee box to compensate for the loss of distance.  

You couldn't pay me enough to be associated with the USGA / R&A, I wouldn't be surprised if they were dragged out of their homes and pelted with non-conforming golf balls.

I'm almost certain the professionals wouldn't care - it would be the same for everyone and all they need is a level playing field.

For amateurs, how is that distance 'hard won' if a ball change reduced it - the distance would be down to the ball and not 'hard won'. The shorter people hit the ball the less difference they would notice.

I wonder if a minimum spin rate wouldn't particularly make much difference to the modern game while protecting it from future distance increases to a certain extent.
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#1153 spooky

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:37 AM

View PostShilgy, on 12 September 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

Guys from the past while about every sport though. What game hasn't changed from the 70's? Curling? Horse racing? Baseball football hops and hockey are almost unrecognizable from 40+ years ago. It's not always a bad thing but the guys from the past lament the loss of their game.

That doesn't make them wrong. ;)

Is baseball unrecognisable? Are they playing with bigger bats and a ball that goes further? If they were and the field (or pitch, or whatever it is) had become much bigger would spectators benefit from that? Are your other sports really unrecognisable? I don't think many ball sports have particularly been allowed to develop in the way that the authorities have let golf equipment develop. They got caught out and, as always, it seems to take them many years before they realise it or are prepared to do anything about it.
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#1154 spooky

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:40 AM

View PostBlackDiamondPar5, on 12 September 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

That's why I really don't think it would happen without bifurcation. Unless of course they can engineer a ball that doesn't give up a lot of distance for lower swing speeds but reaches a point of diminishing returns for higher swing speeds.

Making the ball spin more would do that. The harder you hit it the more it spins and the harder it therefore becomes to control. Ask Trevino why he hit the ball with so much control and he'll tell you it was because his swing didn't have any power.
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#1155 playa

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:45 AM

View Postspooky, on 09 September 2017 - 03:32 AM, said:

View Postplaya, on 08 September 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

View Postspooky, on 08 September 2017 - 04:40 AM, said:

View Postplaya, on 07 September 2017 - 10:29 PM, said:

Making the ball shorter would hand every tojrnament to long bombers and short knockers could no longer compete.

So a shorter ball stops shorter hitters from competing? Trevino, Furyk and Zach Johnson, among others, might disagree with your assessment. Bubba would also disagree. Basically, everyone from the shortest to the longest hitters would disagree with you based on their quotes.
Trevino played in an era when courses were shorter. If the ball was wound back 20 yards Zach and Furyk would have an awful time trying to compete on current courses if they played as long as they do now (hitting a 260 yard drive on 450 plus yard par 4s would hurt). Bubba would disagree with most things put to him just on basic instinct.
Trevino also played with a ball that went shorter on those shorter courses. He was short relative to the field but found a way to win, as did Zach and Furyk. Zach was 128th in driving distance in 2007, averaging 281, yet he won at Augusta, which was playing at 7,445 yards. East Lake in 2010 was playing a similar length when Furyk won - he was 179th in driving distance then, averaging 276 yards.

You seem to think that the ball could be wound back 20 yards equally for long and short hitters... Long hitters would lose more yards than short hitters. Winding the ball back isn't going to happen, but it wouldn't stop shorter hitters from competing.
I realise Zach won the Masters on a long course, but the only reason he could compete with the long hitters is because of how far he hits the current ball. Take 20 yards off his drives and there are par 4s at Augusta he would struggle to reach, never mind par 5s. Winding the ball back might take more yards from DJ than Zach, but it's all relative. Reducing the distance the ball goes would hurt short hitters way more than long hitters, simply because courses have added so much length to counter distance. If Augusta stays at 7,445 yards and the ball goes 20 or more yards less off the tee, Zach and Furyk and co are out of the game imo.

Edited by playa, 13 September 2017 - 04:46 AM.


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#1156 spooky

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:46 AM

View PostShilgy, on 12 September 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

Agree-and especially at the pro level it is not just the distance that would be an issue. To roll it back would fundamentally change how the ball reacts on other shots as well.

They wouldn't have an issue about distance - long hitters would still be long relative to the field if they could control the ball. They would adapt to the differences and it would be the same for everyone. I highly doubt any of them would be crying about losing some distance and many would welcome the change. Control of spin and trajectory in windy conditions would become more important again. I think it would be great and make the game less one-dimensional than it is becoming.
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#1157 spooky

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:49 AM

View Postplaya, on 13 September 2017 - 04:45 AM, said:

I realise Zach won the Masters on a long course, but the only reason he could compete with the long hitters is because of how far he hits the current ball. Take 20 yards off his drives and there are par 4s at Augusta he would struggle to reach, never mind par 5s. Winding the ball back might take more yards from DJ than Zach, but it's all relative. Reducing the distance the ball goes would hurt short hitters way more than long hitters, simply because courses have added so much length to counter distance. If Augusta stays at 7,455 yards and the ball goes 20 or more yards less off the tee, Zach and Furyk and co are out of the game imo.

You wouldn't take 20 yards off for everyone though. It would be a percentage difference and the long hitters would therefore potentially lose a little more than the short hitters. A shorter ball also wouldn't require the course to be played so long - it's been made that length due to the distance the ball goes and a shorter ball would simply result in a slightly shorter course, so Zach, Furyk and co certainly wouldn't be out of the game and they might actually be at less of a disadvantage.

Edited by spooky, 13 September 2017 - 04:51 AM.

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#1158 playa

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:55 AM

View Postspooky, on 13 September 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 12 September 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

Agree-and especially at the pro level it is not just the distance that would be an issue. To roll it back would fundamentally change how the ball reacts on other shots as well.

They wouldn't have an issue about distance - long hitters would still be long relative to the field if they could control the ball. They would adapt to the differences and it would be the same for everyone. I highly doubt any of them would be crying about losing some distance and many would welcome the change. Control of spin and trajectory in windy conditions would become more important again. I think it would be great and make the game less one-dimensional than it is becoming.
Totally agree with this. I think there is a strong argument that Norman had a much bigger advantage over the field from being a long, straight driver of the old wound ball than DJ does now. Same for Tiger pre ProV1. He destoyed the course and field in 97 with a wound ball, mainly cause he was the only guy in the field hitting it that far, and was driving it so far past everyone else. He was literally playing a different course from where his tee shots were landing. I think guys like DJ, Day and Rory would be licking their lips at the prospect of the ball being wound back.

Edited by playa, 13 September 2017 - 04:56 AM.


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#1159 bladehunter

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:07 AM

View Postplaya, on 13 September 2017 - 04:55 AM, said:

View Postspooky, on 13 September 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 12 September 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

Agree-and especially at the pro level it is not just the distance that would be an issue. To roll it back would fundamentally change how the ball reacts on other shots as well.

They wouldn't have an issue about distance - long hitters would still be long relative to the field if they could control the ball. They would adapt to the differences and it would be the same for everyone. I highly doubt any of them would be crying about losing some distance and many would welcome the change. Control of spin and trajectory in windy conditions would become more important again. I think it would be great and make the game less one-dimensional than it is becoming.
Totally agree with this. I think there is a strong argument that Norman had a much bigger advantage over the field from being a long, straight driver of the old wound ball than DJ does now. Same for Tiger pre ProV1. He destoyed the course and field in 97 with a wound ball, mainly cause he was the only guy in the field hitting it that far, and was driving it so far past everyone else. He was literally playing a different course from where his tee shots were landing. I think guys like DJ, Day and Rory would be licking their lips at the prospect of the ball being wound back.

I agree with you. That's why I would love love love to see it wound back.    I could enjoy that advantage as well.
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#1160 playa

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:02 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 13 September 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

View Postplaya, on 13 September 2017 - 04:55 AM, said:

View Postspooky, on 13 September 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 12 September 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

Agree-and especially at the pro level it is not just the distance that would be an issue. To roll it back would fundamentally change how the ball reacts on other shots as well.

They wouldn't have an issue about distance - long hitters would still be long relative to the field if they could control the ball. They would adapt to the differences and it would be the same for everyone. I highly doubt any of them would be crying about losing some distance and many would welcome the change. Control of spin and trajectory in windy conditions would become more important again. I think it would be great and make the game less one-dimensional than it is becoming.
Totally agree with this. I think there is a strong argument that Norman had a much bigger advantage over the field from being a long, straight driver of the old wound ball than DJ does now. Same for Tiger pre ProV1. He destoyed the course and field in 97 with a wound ball, mainly cause he was the only guy in the field hitting it that far, and was driving it so far past everyone else. He was literally playing a different course from where his tee shots were landing. I think guys like DJ, Day and Rory would be licking their lips at the prospect of the ball being wound back.

I agree with you. That's why I would love love love to see it wound back.    I could enjoy that advantage as well.
I wouldn't . That ship sailed about 5 years ago for me, I need all the extra distance I can get these days.


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#1161 disco111

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:49 AM

39 pages and still counting...........Just about everything that can, will or should be done has been offered and discussed. The USGA/R&A and the OEM's are in a catch 22. They, governing powers, now realize that they must / should do something to maintain the games equilibrium, but at what cost to the OEM's? You stifle the OEM's and in turn the game itself to a degree. So what to do, what to do????
The only viable alternative for them and the tour is to adjust the condition of the courses being played. Now were talking strictly tour events and USGA/R&A events, after all, the golfing world follows suit as to what and how the pro's play. This means that they only affect the 1% of the golfing world and the rest of us can proceed on our merry way. Now one stipulation and this again only impacts world class players (pro's and am's), maintain ball technology at it's present level, no further distance advancements. Lets be totally honest here, the ball can't and should not be allowed to keep going further and further. Not doing so will only have a more negative effect on courses and we will be right back to where we are now.

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#1162 gvogel

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:19 AM

View Postdisco111, on 13 September 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

39 pages and still counting...........Just about everything that can, will or should be done has been offered and discussed. The USGA/R&A and the OEM's are in a catch 22. They, governing powers, now realize that they must / should do something to maintain the games equilibrium, but at what cost to the OEM's? You stifle the OEM's and in turn the game itself to a degree. So what to do, what to do????
The only viable alternative for them and the tour is to adjust the condition of the courses being played. Now were talking strictly tour events and USGA/R&A events, after all, the golfing world follows suit as to what and how the pro's play. This means that they only affect the 1% of the golfing world and the rest of us can proceed on our merry way. Now one stipulation and this again only impacts world class players (pro's and am's), maintain ball technology at it's present level, no further distance advancements. Lets be totally honest here, the ball can't and should not be allowed to keep going further and further. Not doing so will only have a more negative effect on courses and we will be right back to where we are now.

I don't think that stifling the OEMs would stifle the game.  It would stifle the money growth for the OEMs - but that is different than stifling the game.  Players would still play.  Pros would still give lessons.  Course operators should not be affected.

We should not equate the health of the game to the health of the club and ball makers.
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#1163 North Butte

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:29 AM

The game did not collapse when The Great ProV1 Revolution added 25+ Yards to the Tour game almost overnight. Why would it collapse if other factors add another 25 over the next couple decades?
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#1164 disco111

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:20 PM

We should not equate the health of the game to the health of the club and ball makers.

OK, if you say so...............but without the OEM's making money, then they go out of business and no new products means everybody will have to be content with playing older equipment. The growth of golf, while not totally driven by OEM's, they played a major part in getting folks into the game. You can't separate the two, because they need each other.

The game did not collapse when The Great ProV1 Revolution added 25+ Yards to the Tour game almost overnight. Why would it collapse if other factors add another 25 over the next couple decades?

​I did not say the game will collapse, but it will take a major hit, which relates to money (the driving force behind all of this). We can't keep elongating courses just to appease the OEM's. it's just expensive and any and all expenses funnel down to the playing public, which according to reports is already in a steady decline. There is a point of no return for just about everything and IMO golf is just about there.

Those that just want the ball to keep going and going are not taking into consideration the bigger picture.

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#1165 Pepperturbo

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 03:14 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 12 September 2017 - 10:20 PM, said:

View PostPepperturbo, on 12 September 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 11 September 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

That may be true.  But if it is then what we have is an artificially maintained bubble. One that should have never been let get this big.  " the game " is played by people who love it.  I'd play with a stick and a rock or anything in between if that's all I had.  Anyone who wouldn't do the same isn't a true fan of the game.  And I'm not in favor of keeping the ones who wouldn't. And why would anyone ?  To line folks pockets ?  Nah.  There's plenty of like minded folks who would keep enough clubs open to play.


But it doesn't matter.  The cats out and gone.  Can't be unseen.

Its too easy to say you'd play with sticks and stones, and call it dedication. :lol:  I have no interest in your sticks and stones, and neither does the majority of golfers.  That in no way suggests I am not or we're not dedicated fans of the game.  Nobody defines that.  At 40, I learned the game hitting 1200-1500 range balls a week. Don't tell me that's not dedication.

Most that talk golf today, just talk.  They have done nothing to affect change in golf.  You are right.  We're not going back to the stone age of golf balls. :beach: have a good day



so you would quit the game if the ball were brought back?   Im guessing the answer is no.... why ?  because you love it as i do , and as most players do.... sure you would gripe.. but hey you are like me ..thats nothing new...   and the world would still turn

If nitwits took it upon themselves to roll back the ball so I and millions of other amateur golfers lost +/- 30yrds off the tee, but playing the same courses, the first thing I might do is use my resources to organize a fight.  Build a war chest and go after those nitwits every way possible.  Unlike you, I am not one to let the world turn and push me without a fight.  :)  :beach:  But like much of Golfwrx, its all conjecture.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 13 September 2017 - 03:16 PM.

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#1166 Shilgy

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 03:15 PM

View Postspooky, on 13 September 2017 - 04:37 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 12 September 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

Guys from the past while about every sport though. What game hasn't changed from the 70's? Curling? Horse racing? Baseball football hops and hockey are almost unrecognizable from 40+ years ago. It's not always a bad thing but the guys from the past lament the loss of their game.

That doesn't make them wrong. ;)

Is baseball unrecognisable? Are they playing with bigger bats and a ball that goes further? If they were and the field (or pitch, or whatever it is) had become much bigger would spectators benefit from that? Are your other sports really unrecognisable? I don't think many ball sports have particularly been allowed to develop in the way that the authorities have let golf equipment develop. They got caught out and, as always, it seems to take them many years before they realise it or are prepared to do anything about it.
Unrecognizable? No. Just like golf is the same until you delve deeper. I am not going to look up the numbers but baseball has fundamentally changed. They are way more at bats that do not result in a ball in play that there were in the past-and not that long ago.  Base on balls/strikeouts/home runs are all up and hitters are now essentially using trackman type numbers to change their swing to hit up more than in the past. Sound familiar?
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#1167 Shilgy

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 03:20 PM

View Postplaya, on 13 September 2017 - 04:55 AM, said:

View Postspooky, on 13 September 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 12 September 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

Agree-and especially at the pro level it is not just the distance that would be an issue. To roll it back would fundamentally change how the ball reacts on other shots as well.

They wouldn't have an issue about distance - long hitters would still be long relative to the field if they could control the ball. They would adapt to the differences and it would be the same for everyone. I highly doubt any of them would be crying about losing some distance and many would welcome the change. Control of spin and trajectory in windy conditions would become more important again. I think it would be great and make the game less one-dimensional than it is becoming.
Totally agree with this. I think there is a strong argument that Norman had a much bigger advantage over the field from being a long, straight driver of the old wound ball than DJ does now. Same for Tiger pre ProV1. He destoyed the course and field in 97 with a wound ball, mainly cause he was the only guy in the field hitting it that far, and was driving it so far past everyone else. He was literally playing a different course from where his tee shots were landing. I think guys like DJ, Day and Rory would be licking their lips at the prospect of the ball being wound back.
in 1987 Norman played perhaps the spinniest ball ever made-the Spalding Tour Edition- and was 4th in driving distance just 5 yards behind the leader.

Edited by Shilgy, 13 September 2017 - 03:21 PM.

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#1168 spooky

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:26 PM

View Postdisco111, on 13 September 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

The only viable alternative for them and the tour is to adjust the condition of the courses being played.

Lets be totally honest here, the ball can't and should not be allowed to keep going further and further. Not doing so will only have a more negative effect on courses and we will be right back to where we are now.

The first sentence quoted I disagree with as that can continue indefinitely.

The second bit quoted I absolutely agree with.
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#1169 spooky

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:27 PM

View PostShilgy, on 13 September 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

]in 1987 Norman played perhaps the spinniest ball ever made-the Spalding Tour Edition- and was 4th in driving distance just 5 yards behind the leader.

I'm not sure what your point is. He was one of the greatest drivers of the ball. So one of the greatest drivers of the ball ever was still long with a ball that spun a lot... ok...

Edited by spooky, 13 September 2017 - 04:28 PM.

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#1170 spooky

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:32 PM

View PostShilgy, on 13 September 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

Unrecognizable? No. Just like golf is the same until you delve deeper. I am not going to look up the numbers but baseball has fundamentally changed. They are way more at bats that do not result in a ball in play that there were in the past-and not that long ago.  Base on balls/strikeouts/home runs are all up and hitters are now essentially using trackman type numbers to change their swing to hit up more than in the past. Sound familiar?

Yet you said they were all unrecognisable. Now you say not. Which is it?

I believe that they limited the technology in the bats and the ball is fundamentally the same, along with the size of the playing field? Or are you saying baseball has changed as much as golf?

Golf isn't the same. unless you know more than the great players, who say, among other things, that playing in the wind is very different now. Golf has far less value placed on trajectory and spin control than it used to because the ball takes care of much of that.

Edited by spooky, 13 September 2017 - 04:33 PM.

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