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Lag, is it created by passive arms or active arms.


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#1 Macogardy

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 12:19 PM

Thought it would be interesting to discuss what's worked for you individual golfers.  I recently had a post about using active arms and passive shoulders in the transition this is in agreement with moments sergio Sam Snead and Vijay Singh have given in articles describing there swing.  I've worked with instructors in the past that have proposed powering the swing with the upper torso or the shoulders.  

Curious from real world experience what thoughts you've had on these topics.


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#2 Jobu

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 12:29 PM

Lag is created by bad golfers' arms.

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#3 Gamble Gamble

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 12:31 PM

It is created by arms that are in sync with the body

Whether that means you need to fire the arms more to keep up or feel more pivot driven is dependent on the player.

EDIT:  i didnt realize who the OP was.  I expect this to be him baiting other people so he can argue/troll them.  Post at your own risk of time lost to the void.

Quote

8/4 EDIT:  When are you people going to learn... stop feeding trolls.

Edited by Gamble Gamble, 04 August 2017 - 03:00 PM.

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#4 AJ Joseph

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 12:38 PM

Passive

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#5 Z1ggy16

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 12:39 PM

Monte has a whole bunch of videos about this, go check them out.

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#6 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 01:27 PM

You don't have passive arms when you jog or kick a field goal.  Can you swing an axe or throw a frisbee left handed with any sort of competence with passive arms?

Now some people can get the arms to work correctly without any conscious effort, but the overwhelming majority don't use them correctly and the thought of passive arms is what got them there in the first place.

Are you going to have more lag if your arms are more forward or dropped more behind?
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#7 juststeve

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 01:58 PM

Use of the arms retains the lag created in the back swing, so long as it's the arms, not the forearms or hands that are used.  Swing the club forward, in a continuous motion, with THE ARMS and your lag will be just fine.

Steve

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#8 bph7

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 02:45 PM

In before lock.

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#9 Strike Force

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 03:04 PM

 Macogardy, on 03 August 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Thought it would be interesting to discuss what's worked for you individual golfers.  I recently had a post about using active arms and passive shoulders in the transition this is in agreement with moments sergio Sam Snead and Vijay Singh have given in articles describing there swing.  I've worked with instructors in the past that have proposed powering the swing with the upper torso or the shoulders.  

Curious from real world experience what thoughts you've had on these topics.

What is your definition of 'lag'?  Is it shaft lag, a.k.a. a loaded or stressed clubshaft?  Or is it lag angle, a.k.a. the angle between the clubshaft and the left forearm?  Two closely related, yet entirely different elements of the golf swing.
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#10 Petunia Sprinkle

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 03:07 PM

It's created by whatever method I'm currently subscribed to says it is.


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#11 jbw749

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 03:10 PM

 Jobu, on 03 August 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

Lag is created by bad golfers' arms.

Good post.
Bad golfers trying to create lag results in massive areas of the driving range being destroyed with 3" deep divots. And they hit low worm burning cut shots that sound dead off the face.



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#12 Hilts1969

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 03:53 PM

 jbw749, on 03 August 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

 Jobu, on 03 August 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

Lag is created by bad golfers' arms.

Good post.
Bad golfers trying to create lag results in massive areas of the driving range being destroyed with 3" deep divots. And they hit low worm burning cut shots that sound dead off the face.

Have you been spying on me

Stalker alert

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#13 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 04:02 PM

 jbw749, on 03 August 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

 Jobu, on 03 August 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

Lag is created by bad golfers' arms.

Good post.
Bad golfers trying to create lag results in massive areas of the driving range being destroyed with 3" deep divots. And they hit low worm burning cut shots that sound dead off the face.

LOL.  Excellent.
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#14 northgolf

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 05:53 PM

Infinite lag occupies the time between when I read these posts and they make sense to me.  The problem with infinite lag is the club never gets to the ball.
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#15 ricklinens

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 06:11 PM

Passively active, or actively passive, either way.  Here's Zinger's take on harnessing lag.

The less you put in, the more you take out.

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#16 northgolf

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 06:17 PM

When is lag important - p6 or p7?  How much do you want? WTFC.  Smack the pill.
If I do this 11,548 more times, I will be having fun.  - Zippy the Pinhead

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#17 Macogardy

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:19 PM

 Strike Force, on 03 August 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

 Macogardy, on 03 August 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Thought it would be interesting to discuss what's worked for you individual golfers.  I recently had a post about using active arms and passive shoulders in the transition this is in agreement with moments sergio Sam Snead and Vijay Singh have given in articles describing there swing.  I've worked with instructors in the past that have proposed powering the swing with the upper torso or the shoulders.  

Curious from real world experience what thoughts you've had on these topics.

What is your definition of 'lag'?  Is it shaft lag, a.k.a. a loaded or stressed clubshaft?  Or is it lag angle, a.k.a. the angle between the clubshaft and the left forearm?  Two closely related, yet entirely different elements of the golf swing.

Sorry I was referring to accumulator #2  or left wristcock

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#18 northgolf

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:25 PM

 Macogardy, on 03 August 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

 Strike Force, on 03 August 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

 Macogardy, on 03 August 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Thought it would be interesting to discuss what's worked for you individual golfers.  I recently had a post about using active arms and passive shoulders in the transition this is in agreement with moments sergio Sam Snead and Vijay Singh have given in articles describing there swing.  I've worked with instructors in the past that have proposed powering the swing with the upper torso or the shoulders.  

Curious from real world experience what thoughts you've had on these topics.

What is your definition of 'lag'?  Is it shaft lag, a.k.a. a loaded or stressed clubshaft?  Or is it lag angle, a.k.a. the angle between the clubshaft and the left forearm?  Two closely related, yet entirely different elements of the golf swing.

Sorry I was referring to accumulator #2  or left wristcock

When do we measure it, I mean you don't want to come into impact half cocked.
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#19 Macogardy

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:27 PM

 ricklinens, on 03 August 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

Passively active, or actively passive, either way.  Here's Zinger's take on harnessing lag.

I'm really interested in hearing personal experiences.  To me that's real world what worked for you personally not theory.  

Zinger in this video shows a drill but IMO he doesn't show how to power it he just says miss the wall.  Which sounds great but at full speed we are talking about forces being active.

I'll chime in and say me personally more of an active arms pulling motion creates lag for me.  When I have tried to turn my shoulders or torso through the ball with more passive arms it has caused clubhead throwaway.  

I was curious if this was others results as well or if maybe it is there is alternate results for different people

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#20 Macogardy

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:33 PM

Deleted

Edited by Macogardy, 03 August 2017 - 09:39 PM.


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#21 northgolf

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:34 PM

 Macogardy, on 03 August 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

 ricklinens, on 03 August 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

Passively active, or actively passive, either way.  Here's Zinger's take on harnessing lag.

I'm really interested in hearing personal experiences.  To me that's real world what worked for you personally not theory.  

Zinger in this video shows a drill but IMO he doesn't show how to power it he just says miss the wall.  Which sounds great but at full speed we are talking about forces being active.

I'll chime in and say me personally more of an active arms pulling motion creates lag for me.  When I have tried to turn my shoulders or torso through the ball with more passive arms it has caused clubhead throwaway.  

I was curious if this was others results as well or if maybe it is there is alternate results for different people

Have you read Jorgensen?
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#22 Macogardy

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:34 PM

 northgolf, on 03 August 2017 - 09:25 PM, said:

 Macogardy, on 03 August 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

 Strike Force, on 03 August 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

 Macogardy, on 03 August 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Thought it would be interesting to discuss what's worked for you individual golfers.  I recently had a post about using active arms and passive shoulders in the transition this is in agreement with moments sergio Sam Snead and Vijay Singh have given in articles describing there swing.  I've worked with instructors in the past that have proposed powering the swing with the upper torso or the shoulders.  

Curious from real world experience what thoughts you've had on these topics.

What is your definition of 'lag'?  Is it shaft lag, a.k.a. a loaded or stressed clubshaft?  Or is it lag angle, a.k.a. the angle between the clubshaft and the left forearm?  Two closely related, yet entirely different elements of the golf swing.

Sorry I was referring to accumulator #2  or left wristcock

When do we measure it, I mean you don't want to come into impact half cocked.

Well in my experience that's not much of a problem as in order to get the impact you want you'll need to extend that wrist c0ck

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#23 Jasonic

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:35 PM

I create lag when I use a dial up connection to read GolfWRX
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#24 northgolf

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:39 PM

 Macogardy, on 03 August 2017 - 09:34 PM, said:

 northgolf, on 03 August 2017 - 09:25 PM, said:

 Macogardy, on 03 August 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

 Strike Force, on 03 August 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

 Macogardy, on 03 August 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Thought it would be interesting to discuss what's worked for you individual golfers.  I recently had a post about using active arms and passive shoulders in the transition this is in agreement with moments sergio Sam Snead and Vijay Singh have given in articles describing there swing.  I've worked with instructors in the past that have proposed powering the swing with the upper torso or the shoulders.  

Curious from real world experience what thoughts you've had on these topics.

What is your definition of 'lag'?  Is it shaft lag, a.k.a. a loaded or stressed clubshaft?  Or is it lag angle, a.k.a. the angle between the clubshaft and the left forearm?  Two closely related, yet entirely different elements of the golf swing.

Sorry I was referring to accumulator #2  or left wristcock

When do we measure it, I mean you don't want to come into impact half cocked.

Well in my experience that's not much of a problem as in order to get the impact you want you'll need to extend that wrist c0ck

Begs the question, How can you measure lag?  If you can't define it and measure it, you are just blowing smoke.  So, let's try this again: define lag.
If I do this 11,548 more times, I will be having fun.  - Zippy the Pinhead

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#25 Macogardy

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:40 PM

I've personally found I hit it farther with more lag.
I would think storage between p5 and p6 would allow you to accelerate your hands faster If the moment arm increases the club will start slowing down.

You ever done a back flip.  If you tuck in your legs you spin way faster with the same effort.  Once you extend you start slowing down quick.


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#26 Matt J

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:43 PM

Shaft lean at impact?

I like Monte's perspective because I feel like you have lag / passive arms / stuck on one side of an equation and flip on the other.  Golf is played in the middle whenever you can square the club face.

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#27 Strike Force

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:45 PM

 Macogardy, on 03 August 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

 ricklinens, on 03 August 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

Passively active, or actively passive, either way.  Here's Zinger's take on harnessing lag.

I'm really interested in hearing personal experiences.  To me that's real world what worked for you personally not theory.  

Zinger in this video shows a drill but IMO he doesn't show how to power it he just says miss the wall.  Which sounds great but at full speed we are talking about forces being active.

I'll chime in and say me personally more of an active arms pulling motion creates lag for me.  When I have tried to turn my shoulders or torso through the ball with more passive arms it has caused clubhead throwaway.  

I was curious if this was others results as well or if maybe it is there is alternate results for different people

Start the downswing slowly with the inside of your body in lieu of jerking the club down with the outside of your body (e.g. your hands).  Passive hands and relaxed shoulders...with both hands working together in harmony so the clubhead trails behind your hands.  The lag angle will naturally open (club/arm expands) due to rotational forces.

Edited by Strike Force, 03 August 2017 - 09:53 PM.

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#28 Macogardy

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:54 PM


I'm no scientist or professional teacher,
But I would personally define lag simply as reducing the moment arm by keeping your weight the club arms etc closer to the center of rotation.  

So trying to get say 15 mph of handspeed which if I remember correctly is about what Sergio's speed is would require a lot more effort or power if you have 90 degrees of wristcock from p5-p6 compared to having less than 90 degrees because the weight would be farther from the center.  

Then as your wrist uncock your hands start to slowdown.  And as you get extension because the club shaft arm relationship is longer the head is traveling at a faster speed but is starting to slowdown.  So getting this acceleration period with "lag" then releasing it to get the surface speed from the longer total club arm length shows the momentary fastest clubhead speed.  

That's at least how I understand what happens and is inline with the self testing I've done with friends.  

Anyone see things differently that maybe I'm seeing wrong?

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#29 MPStrat

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 10:09 PM

Is the ultimate goal 2d lag or speed+pure contact? Consciously trying to increase the 2d lag angle takes away from both of those in my experience. Some swear the extreme float load adds speed, but it slows the club head down a lot for me.

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#30 Macogardy

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 10:22 PM

 MPStrat, on 03 August 2017 - 10:09 PM, said:

Is the ultimate goal 2d lag or speed+pure contact? Consciously trying to increase the 2d lag angle takes away from both of those in my experience. Some swear the extreme float load adds speed, but it slows the club head down a lot for me.

Speed plus pure contact would be my goal.

Interesting that's the kinda discussion I'm interested in.  I've found it adds speed.  But the question is how much?  Is it 1 mph 5 mph etc..

Sounds like I'n your case you are saying when you lag the club you loose distance.  

So very interesting.

Edited by Macogardy, 03 August 2017 - 10:23 PM.


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