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The "Spieth isn't as talented" argument


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#31 bladehunter

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:53 AM

View Postmizuno player, on 24 July 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

He is talented. As are all that make the tour.

His length is above average. His short game is well above average. Putting is top notch. His ability to bounce back is mind blowing.

Didn't he birdie 13 after butchering 12 at the Master's?

That's strong.


everyone has forgotten how close he came to still winning that day...

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#32 nicoy3k

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:54 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 24 July 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

View Postmwkbmw, on 24 July 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

View Postdpb5031, on 24 July 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

Better iron game than most with his chicken-wing hold off release.  He's got a nice qjiet toe thru the impact zone and his arms are really in sync with his pivot.  His irons are precise in both distance & accuracy.

Not sure why he doesn't drive it straighter using the same method...

I believe Johnny Miller spoke about Jordan being able to trap the ball really well, (typical of Texas ), and that he is much better off the tee with a 3 wood or driving iron. Perhaps Jordan should get a driver with 5 degrees of loft and tee it really low.



you are more correct than you know... i gaurantee you he would hit it straighter with less loft and a low tee height...   and if yu find the right combo you wont loose much distance....  most good iron players ( guys who trap the ball) have trouble hitting the high tee "up" swing a driver requires for max hangtime... he needs to top chasing distance and search for straight , one miss driver swing....

yea, he should change his swing. It's not like its gotten him 3 majors and 11 wins before 24

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#33 sshoe9

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:55 AM

Well, I guess I'm one of those ones who still thinks Jordan has a lot to prove. All of his majors to this point have come with asterisks. The 2015 Masters was one of the easiest on record with the unusually soft greens. The 2015 US Open was played at a quirky course hosting the event for the first time, where his caddy happened to have been a former employee. And now the 2017 Open at Royal Birkdale, considered by the Wall Street Journal to be "a tough yet fair challenge that is accessible to players who don’t have the bombs-away games of golf’s young guns." Also, if you look at his other wins on Tour, they're coming at lot of 2nd tier venues: John Deere Classic, Valspar, Travelers, Dean and Deluca. He tends to be a no show on the power tracks. His 9 over par experience at Oakmont is difficult to ignore, for example.

I think some of us want to see a little more before we're comfortable anointing him. He needs to demonstrate he can contend on the classic, big boy tracks. Until then, I feel like he's still looking up at guys like Rory, DJ, and even Jon Rahm.

Edited by sshoe9, 24 July 2017 - 11:56 AM.


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#34 scruffynick

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:55 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 24 July 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

i always love these "flawed swing " arguments....  fact is 99% of the micheal breed techincally correct swings out there belong to the most unathletic robots on earth.... the range is full of them... and most of them cant play a lick...  give me the flawed guy who can get it in the hole and scramble from a dumpster ( or driving range) any day...
Hear hear....much more fun! I watched Speith on the practice ground and on my hole as a steward and he looked good to me....the amount of people that have said he reminds me of Tom Watson it's untrue...well if he becomes as good and loved as Watson, the boys done alright!

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#35 bladehunter

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:55 AM

View Postnicoy3k, on 24 July 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 24 July 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

View Postmwkbmw, on 24 July 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

View Postdpb5031, on 24 July 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

Better iron game than most with his chicken-wing hold off release.  He's got a nice qjiet toe thru the impact zone and his arms are really in sync with his pivot.  His irons are precise in both distance & accuracy.

Not sure why he doesn't drive it straighter using the same method...

I believe Johnny Miller spoke about Jordan being able to trap the ball really well, (typical of Texas ), and that he is much better off the tee with a 3 wood or driving iron. Perhaps Jordan should get a driver with 5 degrees of loft and tee it really low.



you are more correct than you know... i gaurantee you he would hit it straighter with less loft and a low tee height...   and if yu find the right combo you wont loose much distance....  most good iron players ( guys who trap the ball) have trouble hitting the high tee "up" swing a driver requires for max hangtime... he needs to top chasing distance and search for straight , one miss driver swing....

yea, he should change his swing. It's not like its gotten him 3 majors and 11 wins before 24


thats not what i said... i simply said to tee driver to suit "his swing"  instead of the high draw hes tried to go to this year with driver....  its not a secret he HAS changed his driver swing to try to gain distance.. and has become wild because of it

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#36 bladehunter

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:58 AM

View Postsshoe9, on 24 July 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

Well, I guess I'm one of those ones who still thinks Jordan has a lot to prove. All of his majors to this point have come with asterisks. The 2015 Masters was one of the easiest on record with the unusually soft greens. The 2015 US Open was played at a quirky course hosting the event for the first time, where his caddy happened to have been a former employee. And now the 2017 Open at Royal Birkdale, considered by the Wall Street Journal to be "a tough yet fair challenge that is accessible to players who don’t have the bombs-away games of golf’s young guns." Also, if you look at his other wins on Tour, they're coming at lot of 2nd tier venues: John Deere Classic, Valspar, Travelers, Dean and Deluca. He tends to be a no show on the power tracks. His 9 over par experience at Oakmont is difficult to ignore, for example.

I think some of us want to see a little more before we're comfortable anointing him. He needs to demonstrate he can contend on the classic, big boy tracks. Until then, I feel like he's still looking up at guys like Rory, DJ, and even Jon Rahm.


pretty sure the whole field played the same course he did on all 3 of those.... i fail to see the logic...    he nearly won 3 masters in a row?   how much more "big boy " does it get?
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#37 legitimategolf

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:01 PM

If people rate Dustin Johnson or Rory over Jordan it's because not only chicks dig the long ball. Dudes dig other dudes' long balls. Not that there's anything wrong with that of course.

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#38 Dave230

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:02 PM

Still think Rory is more talented, he won two majors by 8 shots, which shows he can blow away a field. This is a bit of a major drought for him, so he's not exactly flavour of the month at the moment.

Rory might not have quite the mental fortitude of Spieth, but he has also had more things happen to him. Injured on and off this year, missed the 2015 Open at St Andrews with another injury which suited him down to the ground, got married this year so maybe focus not 100% on golf, changed equipment twice since 2012 and is going through another change at the moment, went from working out constantly to no working out etc.

Spieth is supremely talented though as well, I hate when people make him out as a pure grinder, when he is a birdie machine.

Edited by Dave230, 24 July 2017 - 12:04 PM.


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#39 JaNelson38

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:04 PM

Nobody is saying Jordan isnt talented.  He is.  Outside of Tiger in his prime, there isnt another player I would put up to make a 20 foot putt to save my life.

He's also as incredibly fortunate as any upper-echelon golfer out there.  From worm-burning a fairway wood 200+ yards to set up eagle to being able to take an unplayable drop 275 yards from the hole in the driving range and not be out of bounds, to multiple holed bunker shots to win tournaments, its unreal how it seems breaks always go his way.  I dont think we've seen a golfer who is so wild off the tee be so successful in big tournaments.  The guy has the game of a high single-digit handicap off the tee and he has 3 major wins.  Its unreal.

It truly does go to show that a good putter hides a lot of your faults in golf.  When Jordan's putter his on, he's really good.  When its not, those are the tournaments he struggles or is a middling player.

Edited by JaNelson38, 24 July 2017 - 12:11 PM.


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#40 jslane57

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:08 PM

You want to see great swings? Go to any Web.com Tour event. You want to see great golfers? Go to any PGA Tour event. Today Jordan is the best of the best golfers...

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#41 starsail85

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:12 PM

View Postsshoe9, on 24 July 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

Well, I guess I'm one of those ones who still thinks Jordan has a lot to prove. All of his majors to this point have come with asterisks. The 2015 Masters was one of the easiest on record with the unusually soft greens. The 2015 US Open was played at a quirky course hosting the event for the first time, where his caddy happened to have been a former employee. And now the 2017 Open at Royal Birkdale, considered by the Wall Street Journal to be "a tough yet fair challenge that is accessible to players who don’t have the bombs-away games of golf’s young guns." Also, if you look at his other wins on Tour, they're coming at lot of 2nd tier venues: John Deere Classic, Valspar, Travelers, Dean and Deluca. He tends to be a no show on the power tracks. His 9 over par experience at Oakmont is difficult to ignore, for example.

I think some of us want to see a little more before we're comfortable anointing him. He needs to demonstrate he can contend on the classic, big boy tracks. Until then, I feel like he's still looking up at guys like Rory, DJ, and even Jon Rahm.

Rough was so minimal at birkdale it was frightening . Players getting backspin  from the primary rough with the new grooves

I can guarantee that on a links that doesn't get so much worldwide greenfees and doesn't have rough that is trampled down all year but the thousands of visitors , the whole event would have been a different story
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#42 Mathwiz

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:23 PM

After his driver swing on 13 in the final round of the 2017 Open, he was primed to relive last years Masters all over again.

Instead, he proved he has some well meshed, well-lubricated gears turning between his ears.

Didn't a pretty good golfer once say something about where the game is really played?
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#43 dlygrisse

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:24 PM

View Postsshoe9, on 24 July 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

Well, I guess I'm one of those ones who still thinks Jordan has a lot to prove. All of his majors to this point have come with asterisks. The 2015 Masters was one of the easiest on record with the unusually soft greens. The 2015 US Open was played at a quirky course hosting the event for the first time, where his caddy happened to have been a former employee. And now the 2017 Open at Royal Birkdale, considered by the Wall Street Journal to be "a tough yet fair challenge that is accessible to players who don’t have the bombs-away games of golf’s young guns." Also, if you look at his other wins on rTour, they're coming at lot of 2nd tier venues: John Deere Classic, Valspar, Travelers, Dean and Deluca. He tends to be a no show on the power tracks. His 9 over par experience at Oakmont is difficult to ignore, for example.

I think some of us want to see a little more before we're comfortable anointing him. He needs to demonstrate he can contend on the classic, big boy tracks. Until then, I feel like he's still looking up at guys like Rory, DJ, and even Jon Rahm.


Right, because Jon Rahm has won a lot of majors.  

This might be the worst most ill-conceived post I have ever read on this site.   But I am glad you referenced the Wall Street Journal, very credible golf publication.  Just so you know, he has won 2 more majors than DJ and Rahm combined.
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#44 Bomber_

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:26 PM

View Postsshoe9, on 24 July 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

Well, I guess I'm one of those ones who still thinks Jordan has a lot to prove. All of his majors to this point have come with asterisks. The 2015 Masters was one of the easiest on record with the unusually soft greens. The 2015 US Open was played at a quirky course hosting the event for the first time, where his caddy happened to have been a former employee. And now the 2017 Open at Royal Birkdale, considered by the Wall Street Journal to be "a tough yet fair challenge that is accessible to players who don’t have the bombs-away games of golf’s young guns." Also, if you look at his other wins on Tour, they're coming at lot of 2nd tier venues: John Deere Classic, Valspar, Travelers, Dean and Deluca. He tends to be a no show on the power tracks. His 9 over par experience at Oakmont is difficult to ignore, for example.

I think some of us want to see a little more before we're comfortable anointing him. He needs to demonstrate he can contend on the classic, big boy tracks. Until then, I feel like he's still looking up at guys like Rory, DJ, and even Jon Rahm.

He's looking up at Jon Rahm with his one PGA victory?!

Spieth has 3x as many majors as Rahm has victories on the PGA tour...
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#45 DavePelz4

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:35 PM

View Postthe bishop, on 24 July 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

To use a football analogy Steve Largent wasn't the biggest wide receiver or fastest for that matter.  But he got open.

And he's in the Hall of Fame.


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#46 dlygrisse

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:36 PM

View PostDavePelz4, on 24 July 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

View Postthe bishop, on 24 July 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

To use a football analogy Steve Largent wasn't the biggest wide receiver or fastest for that matter.  But he got open.

And he's in the Hall of Fame.

When he retired he was the all-time leader in yards and receptions as well I believe.
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#47 baudi

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:38 PM

Somehow, JS always seems to get away with his misses.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Jordan Spieth Approach H11.jpg


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#48 dlygrisse

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:45 PM

View Postbaudi, on 24 July 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

Somehow, JS always seems to get away with his misses.

What does this picture even prove?  is he playing a draw?  Camera angle?  Playing the slope on the green?  One bad shot?
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#49 baudi

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:48 PM

Maybe you missed it but this is the approach at Hole 11 yesterday.

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#50 sshoe9

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:54 PM

View Postdlygrisse, on 24 July 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:


Right, because Jon Rahm has won a lot of majors.  

This might be the worst most ill-conceived post I have ever read on this site.   But I am glad you referenced the Wall Street Journal, very credible golf publication.  Just so you know, he has won 2 more majors than DJ and Rahm combined.

I guess I'm basing it more on potential. Rahm seems better suited for the big boy courses. I think the jury is still out on whether Spieth can find success in those ballparks, yet.


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#51 tiderider

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:58 PM

View Postnicoy3k, on 24 July 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

I keep hearing/reading this angle that Jordan is somehow less talented than guys like Rory or DJ, but gets through with golf IQ and "heart".

Jordan is more talented than both of those guys.

He is a better iron player, a better wedge player, has a better short game, and is 10x a better putter.

Yea, he doesn't drive it quite as long (he's sneaky long) or as straight (both Rory and DJ are streaky with their accuracy)... but that's just one aspect of the game..

Jordan Spieth is the most talented player in the world right now.

the folks disagreeing with you don't quite understand golf ... maybe don't understand it at all ... the ability to hit the golf ball a long distance does not equate to 'natural' talent ... people like to say 'their best is better than his best' ... no, it's not ... rory will never be the putter that spieth is ... neither will dj ... rory might have a short game that is equal to spieth's, but dj certainly does not and never will approach it ... yes, dj and rory's best driving days are much better than spieth's best driving day, but that is, as you stated, but one aspect of a multifaceted game ...

the person who's  had the most natural talent in the game was probably larry nelson, who was not a long ball hitter ... never played a round of golf in his life and broke 90 the first time he tried it at the age of 21 ... was scratch 9 months later, on the tour 3 years later ... won about 10 tournaments and 3 majors ...

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#52 TheBear95

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:58 PM

View Postsshoe9, on 24 July 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

View Postdlygrisse, on 24 July 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

Right, because Jon Rahm has won a lot of majors.  

This might be the worst most ill-conceived post I have ever read on this site.   But I am glad you referenced the Wall Street Journal, very credible golf publication.  Just so you know, he has won 2 more majors than DJ and Rahm combined.

I guess I'm basing it more on potential. Rahm seems better suited for the big boy courses. I think the jury is still out on whether Spieth can find success in those ballparks, yet.

He won The Masters. Doesn't get anymore "big boy" then that. This is just dumb.
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#53 Barfolomew

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:59 PM

Jordan could very easily hit longer if he chose to..... his technique values accuracy more is all just like Stricker ......and like moi :taunt:
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#54 From_Parts_Unknown

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 01:00 PM

View Postdlygrisse, on 24 July 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

View Postbaudi, on 24 July 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

Somehow, JS always seems to get away with his misses.

What does this picture even prove?  is he playing a draw?  Camera angle?  Playing the slope on the green?  One bad shot?

It proves that golf is a game of misses and players like Jordan who can overcome their misses will eventually prevail.  The problem is, having a good short game, being a great putter, hitting solid mid to long irons just isn't sexy this day and age where it's not if you win but rather how you win.

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#55 sshoe9

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 01:07 PM

View PostTheBear95, on 24 July 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:


He won The Masters. Doesn't get anymore "big boy" then that. This is just dumb.


The greens that year were the softest they had been maybe ever and it wasn't a typical Augusta set up. I think we'll need to see more to ensure that it wasn't just an outlier.

Again, as I wrote above, it's very difficult to ignore the +9 at Oakmont.


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#56 TheBear95

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 01:10 PM

View Postsshoe9, on 24 July 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

View PostTheBear95, on 24 July 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

He won The Masters. Doesn't get anymore "big boy" then that. This is just dumb.


The greens that year were the softest they had been maybe ever and it wasn't a typical Augusta set up. I think we'll need to see more to ensure that it wasn't just an outlier.

Again, as I wrote above, it's very difficult to ignore the +9 at Oakmont.

I would think his T2 at Augusta '14 & '16 would have answered that question.

Also, his 3 major championships and Top 5 finishes at the PGA and The Open would have answered if he can play on big boys courses. Oh, let's throw-in his win at the '15 Tour Championship as well.

But, he finished T37 at Oakmont. I guess, questions remain.

Edited by TheBear95, 24 July 2017 - 01:15 PM.

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#57 tiderider

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 01:12 PM

View Postsshoe9, on 24 July 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

View PostTheBear95, on 24 July 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

He won The Masters. Doesn't get anymore "big boy" then that. This is just dumb.


The greens that year were the softest they had been maybe ever and it wasn't a typical Augusta set up. I think we'll need to see more to ensure that it wasn't just an outlier.

Again, as I wrote above, it's very difficult to ignore the +9 at Oakmont.

the longest it played that year was 7284 ... that's hardly a 'huge' course ...

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#58 SwooshLT

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 01:12 PM

View Postnicoy3k, on 24 July 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

I keep hearing/reading this angle that Jordan is somehow less talented than guys like Rory or DJ, but gets through with golf IQ and "heart".

Jordan is more talented than both of those guys.

He is a better iron player, a better wedge player, has a better short game, and is 10x a better putter.

Yea, he doesn't drive it quite as long (he's sneaky long) or as straight (both Rory and DJ are streaky with their accuracy)... but that's just one aspect of the game..

Jordan Spieth is the most talented player in the world right now.


YJS shows more "skill" than those guys..... don't confuse talent with skill....

Way before your time but Larry Bird was Uber skilled basketball ball HOF'er.....add in determination, high BB IQ and a clutch Gene.....there were and are more talented players who could jump higher run faster and physically stronger but that doesn't equate always to better.

YJS kinda falls in this category primarily due to his perceived "lack of distance" .....he has shown to be more than long enough particularly with his irons....which to me is the most IMPORTANT part of golf.....not just hitting greens but have the correct yardage more often than not.

Edited by SwooshLT, 24 July 2017 - 01:13 PM.


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#59 the bishop

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 01:14 PM

View Postsshoe9, on 24 July 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

Well, I guess I'm one of those ones who still thinks Jordan has a lot to prove. All of his majors to this point have come with asterisks. The 2015 Masters was one of the easiest on record with the unusually soft greens. The 2015 US Open was played at a quirky course hosting the event for the first time, where his caddy happened to have been a former employee. And now the 2017 Open at Royal Birkdale, considered by the Wall Street Journal to be "a tough yet fair challenge that is accessible to players who don’t have the bombs-away games of golf’s young guns." Also, if you look at his other wins on Tour, they're coming at lot of 2nd tier venues: John Deere Classic, Valspar, Travelers, Dean and Deluca. He tends to be a no show on the power tracks. His 9 over par experience at Oakmont is difficult to ignore, for example.

I think some of us want to see a little more before we're comfortable anointing him. He needs to demonstrate he can contend on the classic, big boy tracks. Until then, I feel like he's still looking up at guys like Rory, DJ, and even Jon Rahm.
Didn't DJ win at Oakmont?  What was his score at The Open?  +4?  16 shots off the lead.  That guy sucks.  He needs to prove something more to me.
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#60 SwooshLT

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 01:16 PM

View Postbaudi, on 24 July 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

Somehow, JS always seems to get away with his misses.


Worse part of your example is he actually over hooked this particular shot....so showing his ball starting right proves nothing!


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