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The "Spieth isn't as talented" argument


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#1 nicoy3k

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:11 AM

I keep hearing/reading this angle that Jordan is somehow less talented than guys like Rory or DJ, but gets through with golf IQ and "heart".

Jordan is more talented than both of those guys.

He is a better iron player, a better wedge player, has a better short game, and is 10x a better putter.

Yea, he doesn't drive it quite as long (he's sneaky long) or as straight (both Rory and DJ are streaky with their accuracy)... but that's just one aspect of the game..

Jordan Spieth is the most talented player in the world right now.


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#2 Z1ggy16

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:23 AM

They just say that because he doesn't bomb it 320 like DJ and Rory, and doesn't overpower the course. Also, he appears to have made a "flawed" swing into something that he can control with extreme precision (chicken wing), so the swing geeks call him out. The fact is, there's literally a million different ways to swing a club, but there's really only a few feet of swing arc that truly matter, and his is nearly perfect at that location.

Just look at Moe Norman, dudes address and overall swing looks wacky as hell... But he's one of the most accurate pro golfers of all time.

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#3 dlygrisse

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:27 AM

Neither did Trevino, Gary Player, Byron Nelson, Jim Furyk, Nick Faldo, Bernhard Langer etc. etc.  

Spieth isn't a short hitter for a pro, long no, but solidly average.  What is his club head speed?  112-ish?
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#4 dlygrisse

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:30 AM

The reason Spieth is good is not because of "talent" it's the 8" between his ears.  I'll take that over bombing it any day.  Now Tiger had both, so did Jack, that's why they are the two best ever...but Jordan has it all except that extra gear to go long.  Pretty good tool box if you ask me.
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#5 chrisronline

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:49 AM

Even though I don't really think his swing is flawed (anymore than any other pro at least), I think the belief that it is flawed does well for the golf community at large.

It suggests that a perfect swing isn't necessary to play great golf (which I'm sure we all know but I mean for the majority of the golf community) and that should hopefully encourage people to focus on other areas of their game that might actually make a greater impact at shooting low scores.

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#6 meldelaget

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:50 AM

I think what they mean is that when at their best, they are probably better than Spieth. Like when Day won with 3 shots over Spieth at Whisling Straits when both of them was on fire. Define "talent"? What is it really? People have very different opinions on what talent actually is.

I just dont think Spieth has that absolute highest level but its still very much an opinion. And it doesnt really matter that much because they very rarely play at that level and Spieth is better than all of them at winning while not playing perfect golf.
Spieth has already proven to be one of the best grinders of all time, yesterday was a perfect example of that. He has a way of turning a 75 into a 69, turning a 71 into a 66 etc and he has a way of doing it when it matters the most aswell, damn impressive. He is fantastic under pressure and his biggest talent is "between his ears".
Spieth´s consistency is what sets him apart from DJ, Day, Mcilroy etc so far in all of their careers. DJ has been incredible the last year though. Rory is inconsistent as hell for a player of his level. When Day, DJ and Rory play their absolute best, i don think Spieth can take them, Whistling Straits is an example of that. "Problem" is that its impossible to consistently play their best, Spieth is more consistent in terms of playing close to their top level more often but its all my opinion on it. I also think its an overrated discussion, fact is when you win as much as he does, you are the better player. Specially when you take into account age and PGA tour experience.

Edited by meldelaget, 24 July 2017 - 09:52 AM.


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#7 starsail85

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:53 AM

Speith is more talented at shooting a good score relative to the quality of his shots than any pro in history


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#8 jkumpire

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:56 AM

I would't worry about the discussion, results are all that matter on this level.  If not you could argue that Sam Snead is the greatest player of all time by a mile, and Tom Weiskopf was a more talented player than Nicklaus was.

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#9 TheyCallMeVinnie

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:58 AM

They way he forgot that horrible drive by the next hole was something simply amazing. Id still be dwelling on that hole 10 years from now. The fact that he can do that is pure talent.

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#10 dlygrisse

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:01 AM

View Postjkumpire, on 24 July 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

I would't worry about the discussion, results are all that matter on this level.  If not you could argue that Sam Snead is the greatest player of all time by a mile, and Tom Weiskopf was a more talented player than Nicklaus was.

There are those who would say John Daly is possibly the most talented player ever.  Fred Couples and his one major, plus 1000's of other guys you may have never heard of.  Eddie Pearce?  He was supposed to be better than Jack.  

Course management and hitting shots under pressure is what separates the men from the boys at this level, not having "talent"

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#11 meldelaget

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:01 AM

View Postchrisronline, on 24 July 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

Even though I don't really think his swing is flawed (anymore than any other pro at least), I think the belief that it is flawed does well for the golf community at large.

It suggests that a perfect swing isn't necessary to play great golf (which I'm sure we all know but I mean for the majority of the golf community) and that should hopefully encourage people to focus on other areas of their game that might actually make a greater impact at shooting low scores.

Furyk has shot 58 and 59 on the PGA Tour, he has won 17 times on the PGA Tour including the US Open. Having a "nice swing" is meaningless unless you can get the ball in the hole. How many full shots do a player have during a round? 18 tee shots+14ish full second shots. The rest is putting, short game, scrambling etc. Thats over 50% of the shots. Should be pretty clear for everyone that as long you can get yourself inside 100 yards without f****** it all up, anyone can be on tour no matter how your swing looks as long as you are good inside 100 yards.

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#12 dbleag

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:04 AM

Flawed swings that won majors and other events:

Bobby Jones - backswing almost long enough to hit his left knee
John Daly - see Bobby Jones
Byron Nelson - caddie dip
Arnold Palmer - shut clubface
Jack Nicklaus - flying right elbow
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Hubert Green - several re-routes
Corey Pavin - super-weak grip to start
Jim Furyk - see Lee Trevino
Phil Mickelson - see Bobby Jones
Dustin Johnson - see Arnold Palmer

Seems like players without swing flaws have short game or mental flaws instead.

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#13 moonshine

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:13 AM

Furyk is good example and also see the kid Wolff that lost junior am yesterday.  I have never seen anything like that swing...and yet he was in the final match.
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#14 meldelaget

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:13 AM

View Postdbleag, on 24 July 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Flawed swings that won majors and other events:

Bobby Jones - backswing almost long enough to hit his left knee
John Daly - see Bobby Jones
Byron Nelson - caddie dip
Arnold Palmer - shut clubface
Jack Nicklaus - flying right elbow
Lee Trevino - where to start with swing flaws
Hubert Green - several re-routes
Corey Pavin - super-weak grip to start
Jim Furyk - see Lee Trevino
Phil Mickelson - see Bobby Jones
Dustin Johnson - see Arnold Palmer

Seems like players without swing flaws have short game or mental flaws instead.

When you look at those names, you also have some of the best scramblers,putters and wedge players of all time. People seem to forget that the pros hit 25-35 full shots a round. 18 tee shots+10-15 non wedge approach shots. Thats alot of wedges, putts, chips etc left if your average score is 70.

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#15 Your-away!

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:15 AM

View Postnicoy3k, on 24 July 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

I keep hearing/reading this angle that Jordan is somehow less talented than guys like Rory or DJ, but gets through with golf IQ and "heart".

bullxxxx!!!!!!!!!

Jordan is more talented than both of those guys.

He is a better iron player, a better wedge player, has a better short game, and is 10x a better putter.

Yea, he doesn't drive it quite as long (he's sneaky long) or as straight (both Rory and DJ are streaky with their accuracy)... but that's just one aspect of the game..

Jordan Spieth is the most talented player in the world right now.

I think most people (myself included) would regard natural golf ability as being a good ball striker, hitting the centre of the club 99% of the time, and working it both ways, also hitting it high and low when needed.

IMO you cant say jordan is the most talented in that dept, he has other talents and attributes, there is nothing wrong with that, it shows it wins majors, but the most "talented" or "naturally gifted", no im afraid not.

But Sergio is regarded as one of the best ball strikers in the world, and probably my fave golfer, but put him in a tourney and 8 times out of ten jordan gets a better score, and thats what its all about

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#16 dlygrisse

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:17 AM

View Postdbleag, on 24 July 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Flawed swings that won majors and other events:

Bobby Jones - backswing almost long enough to hit his left knee
John Daly - see Bobby Jones
Byron Nelson - caddie dip
Arnold Palmer - shut clubface
Jack Nicklaus - flying right elbow
Lee Trevino - where to start with swing flaws
Hubert Green - several re-routes
Corey Pavin - super-weak grip to start
Jim Furyk - see Lee Trevino
Phil Mickelson - see Bobby Jones
Dustin Johnson - see Arnold Palmer

Seems like players without swing flaws have short game or mental flaws instead.

Tiger won majors with 3 different swing patterns.  Not sure if all were "flawed" but how could they all be right?  

The ability to score, not swinging pretty, is what wins.  Great ballstriking (whatever that means) doesn't win without making putts.
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#17 nicoy3k

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:19 AM

So talent = distance?

Spieht almost won the grand slam in 2015, Day won a major and has fizzled out.

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#18 bscinstnct

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:19 AM

View Postnicoy3k, on 24 July 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

I keep hearing/reading this angle that Jordan is somehow less talented than guys like Rory or DJ, but gets through with golf IQ and "heart".

Jordan is more talented than both of those guys.

He is a better iron player, a better wedge player, has a better short game, and is 10x a better putter.

Yea, he doesn't drive it quite as long (he's sneaky long) or as straight (both Rory and DJ are streaky with their accuracy)... but that's just one aspect of the game..

Jordan Spieth is the most talented player in the world right now.


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#19 fowlerscousin

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:23 AM

I think spieths swing looks awesome,  always have.  It's a very fundamental swing

Edited by fowlerscousin, 24 July 2017 - 10:24 AM.


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#20 starsail85

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:28 AM

View Postmoonshine, on 24 July 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

Furyk is good example and also see the kid Wolff that lost junior am yesterday.  I have never seen anything like that swing...and yet he was in the final match.

His swing is awesome , that's the swing of the future right there

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#21 mizuno player

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:55 AM

He is talented. As are all that make the tour.

His length is above average. His short game is well above average. Putting is top notch. His ability to bounce back is mind blowing.

Didn't he birdie 13 after butchering 12 at the Master's?

That's strong.

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#22 Bomber_11

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 10:55 AM

Spieth has less raw natural talent than DJ or Rory.

He has a much better mental game, he's a much better putter, and his mistakes generally don't seem to hurt him that bad. (sans #12 @ Augusta)

His good is better than pretty much everyone else's good.

I still say Rory, DJ, and a few others' "great" is better than Jordan's great.
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#23 dpb5031

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:24 AM

Better iron game than most with his chicken-wing hold off release.  He's got a nice qjiet toe thru the impact zone and his arms are really in sync with his pivot.  His irons are precise in both distance & accuracy.

Not sure why he doesn't drive it straighter using the same method...

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#24 the bishop

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:27 AM

To use a football analogy Steve Largent wasn't the biggest wide receiver or fastest for that matter.  But he got open.
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#25 mwkbmw

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:30 AM

View Postdpb5031, on 24 July 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

Better iron game than most with his chicken-wing hold off release.  He's got a nice qjiet toe thru the impact zone and his arms are really in sync with his pivot.  His irons are precise in both distance & accuracy.

Not sure why he doesn't drive it straighter using the same method...

I believe Johnny Miller spoke about Jordan being able to trap the ball really well, (typical of Texas ), and that he is much better off the tee with a 3 wood or driving iron. Perhaps Jordan should get a driver with 5 degrees of loft and tee it really low.

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#26 ezpz

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:32 AM

Don't really get what would be "wrong" about spieths swing. Also the only thing he doesnt have is insane distance, the rest of his game is insanely good. How does that not make him extremely talented? If we would somehow get a major winner who is a steep OTT slicer and holes everything then we can talk about a non talented player winning a major.

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#27 honestveek

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:33 AM

All the talent arguments are more about aesthetics really. All that matters is where the ball goes and the subsequent lower scores. He will win more majors than anyone else currently playing on tour.

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#28 the bishop

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:36 AM

View Postmwkbmw, on 24 July 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

View Postdpb5031, on 24 July 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

Better iron game than most with his chicken-wing hold off release.  He's got a nice qjiet toe thru the impact zone and his arms are really in sync with his pivot.  His irons are precise in both distance & accuracy.

Not sure why he doesn't drive it straighter using the same method...

I believe Johnny Miller spoke about Jordan being able to trap the ball really well, (typical of Texas ), and that he is much better off the tee with a 3 wood or driving iron. Perhaps Jordan should get a driver with 5 degrees of loft and tee it really low.
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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:49 AM

i always love these "flawed swing " arguments....  fact is 99% of the micheal breed techincally correct swings out there belong to the most unathletic robots on earth.... the range is full of them... and most of them cant play a lick...  give me the flawed guy who can get it in the hole and scramble from a dumpster ( or driving range) any day...
17 M1 440 8.5 ( tour issue head ) Fuji Atmos Black 6X ( limited WRX special addition 16/100)
17 M1 15* (tour issue head)  Graphite Design ADDI 8X  
Titleist Custom Grind 2 iron X100
Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
Vokey sm6 copper 53 Vokey 300 series 59   S400
Cameron Newport Beach CT
B330S

29

#30 bladehunter

bladehunter

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GolfWRX Likes : 11386

Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:51 AM

View Postmwkbmw, on 24 July 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

View Postdpb5031, on 24 July 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

Better iron game than most with his chicken-wing hold off release.  He's got a nice qjiet toe thru the impact zone and his arms are really in sync with his pivot.  His irons are precise in both distance & accuracy.

Not sure why he doesn't drive it straighter using the same method...

I believe Johnny Miller spoke about Jordan being able to trap the ball really well, (typical of Texas ), and that he is much better off the tee with a 3 wood or driving iron. Perhaps Jordan should get a driver with 5 degrees of loft and tee it really low.



you are more correct than you know... i gaurantee you he would hit it straighter with less loft and a low tee height...   and if yu find the right combo you wont loose much distance....  most good iron players ( guys who trap the ball) have trouble hitting the high tee "up" swing a driver requires for max hangtime... he needs to top chasing distance and search for straight , one miss driver swing....

17 M1 440 8.5 ( tour issue head ) Fuji Atmos Black 6X ( limited WRX special addition 16/100)
17 M1 15* (tour issue head)  Graphite Design ADDI 8X  
Titleist Custom Grind 2 iron X100
Titleist Tour Proto MB 3-pw Modus 130X
Vokey sm6 copper 53 Vokey 300 series 59   S400
Cameron Newport Beach CT
B330S

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