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M Grind as a bunker club


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#1 kooch1221

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:04 AM

Looking for a change from my K grind to an M grind as my primary bunker club. I only carry
PW, GW, & LW so the K is my highest lofted wedge.  Its great for the for bunker but sometimes
Im thinking the M would be better for other shots around the green and maybe as capable as
the K? I really dont want to go to the 4 wedge route either.  Just looking for opinions.


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#2 One_Putt_Blunder

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:22 AM

Depends on the bunker sand. M is a little better the thinner the bunkers get. If the sand is thicker you have to be much more precise with the M over the K otherwise it will either dig on you or cut through the sand too good.
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#3 Jack A.

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:25 AM

I play a 58 M grind. It's solid out of bunkers, but I wouldn't call it phenomenal like I've heard the K is, but that's just speculation. The club opens up nicely, and I think it's rather functional around the greens. It doesn't dig for me like I have heard it has for some people. I like it.

I would try one first.
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#4 larryd3

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:40 AM

I'm playing my 54* M grind out of bunkers and really liking it better then the 58* K grind.  For me, it's just works better, not sure why though.....
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#5 taylormade4life

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:53 AM

Had an m grind and loved it in the sm5. Very versatile. I also have played c grind more recently and in the past and it was similar sand interaction With the c digging a little more.


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#6 rblmp32

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 11:56 AM

Been using M grind lob wedges since '06.  They're amazing out of the bunkers, but I agree with a previous post that in thick sand it can be a little tricky.  But you get used to it and I wouldn't trade one for anything for the sheer versatility around the greens and bunkers.

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#7 kooch1221

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 12:26 PM

 One_Putt_Blunder, on 21 July 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

Depends on the bunker sand. M is a little better the thinner the bunkers get. If the sand is thicker you have to be much more precise with the M over the K otherwise it will either dig on you or cut through the sand too good.

The course I play at the most has deep almost beach like type sand. Not the powdery stuff, more granular. I have to admit the K really shines here.

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#8 pearsonified

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 12:27 PM

I could hardly hate the M grind more.

It has a massive tendency to dig. Soft turf? Good luck with that. Soft sand? Godspeed, sir.

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#9 Pepperturbo

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 12:29 PM

I chose 52*/8* F and 58*/8* M and been quite happy.  

The design of the 52-F is such that its really easy to hit under any conditions.  Slightly open the face, increasing effective bounce makes it great for long 30yd-60yd bunker shots.  I get lots of spin on full shots.

The 58-M grind is great for all sorts of conditions; soft sand with open face, firm or hard pan, or soft or firm turf conditions.  Its an all around effective club.  Mine is lengthened to 36" length, as is 52 and PW, giving them a slightly heavier SW feel.  Due to Vokey's heavy head weight, and lengthen S200 129gm shaft, 58*- M is E0 sw.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 21 July 2017 - 12:30 PM.

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#10 kooch1221

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 12:30 PM

What got me interested in the M is Vokey wedgeworks is now offering a high bounce M grind. I was hoping that little bit of extra bounce would close the gap between it and the K..

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Edited by kooch1221, 21 July 2017 - 12:33 PM.


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#11 North Butte

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 12:33 PM

I think the sole on my Mizuno T7 56-degree is somewhere between the S and M grinds in Vokey terms. Visually it looks a little thin for bunker shots but in practice, opened up a moderate amount, it seems to work fine.

What I notice about it versus the K-grind I've used in the past is that no matter what the sand conditions (not counting a plugged lie, of course) a sand wedge with some relief on the sole does not require near as much force behind the swing. It cuts through the sand so easily that I've had to re-calibrate myself to not swing so hard.
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#12 kooch1221

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 12:34 PM

 pearsonified, on 21 July 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:

I could hardly hate the M grind more.

It has a massive tendency to dig. Soft turf? Good luck with that. Soft sand? Godspeed, sir.

Mbarrassing.

Hah. That's exactly what I was afraid of.

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#13 kooch1221

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 12:37 PM

 Pepperturbo, on 21 July 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

I chose 52*/8* F and 58*/8* M and been quite happy.  

The design of the 52-F is such that its really easy to hit under any conditions.  Slightly open the face, increasing effective bounce makes it great for long 30yd-60yd bunker shots.  I get lots of spin on full shots.

The 58-M grind is great for all sorts of conditions; soft sand with open face, firm or hard pan, or soft or firm turf conditions.  Its an all around effective club.  Mine is lengthened to 36" length, as is 52 and PW, giving them a slightly heavier SW feel.  Due to Vokey's heavy head weight, and lengthen S200 129gm shaft, 58*- M is E0 sw.

What you said is exactly what I was hoping the M would be and what Peasonified said is what I hoping it wasn.t. Crud.

Edited by kooch1221, 21 July 2017 - 12:38 PM.


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#14 kooch1221

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 12:39 PM

 North Butte, on 21 July 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

I think the sole on my Mizuno T7 56-degree is somewhere between the S and M grinds in Vokey terms. Visually it looks a little thin for bunker shots but in practice, opened up a moderate amount, it seems to work fine.

What I notice about it versus the K-grind I've used in the past is that no matter what the sand conditions (not counting a plugged lie, of course) a sand wedge with some relief on the sole does not require near as much force behind the swing. It cuts through the sand so easily that I've had to re-calibrate myself to not swing so hard.

I just went to a Mizuno demo day on my lunch hour. I must admit their wedges felt great.

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#15 Pepperturbo

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 12:42 PM

Presuming your talking about 60* / 12* -K.. .going to 60* / 8 -M will offer more shot options.  Depending on your wedge skill, it may require some practice time for full shots.  Differing sole design in the wrong hands, M may not be as forgiving as the K.

Regardless of conditions, M never digs for me.  As I said, depends on skill.  When someone digs with any club, mechanics are not correct.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 24 July 2017 - 01:59 PM.

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#16 Hit em good

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 01:07 PM

 One_Putt_Blunder, on 21 July 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

Depends on the bunker sand. M is a little better the thinner the bunkers get. If the sand is thicker you have to be much more precise with the M over the K otherwise it will either dig on you or cut through the sand too good.

This is my exact experience also.  I play the M grind 58* at my normal course, where the sand is average - firm.  However, at courses with soft/deep sand, it digs too much for me.  This was so much the case, that I bought a K grind for those occasions when I play a course with softer sand.  

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#17 kooch1221

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 01:15 PM

 Pepperturbo, on 21 July 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

Presuming your talking about 60* / 12* -K.. .going to 60* / 8 -M will offer more shot options.  Depending on your wedge skill, it may require some practice time for full shots.  Differing sole design in the wrong hands, M may not be as forging as the K.

Regardless of conditions, M never digs for me.  As I said, depends on skill.  When someone digs with any club, mechanics are not correct.

Im a 5.5 index and wedge play is probably the weakest part of my game right now. I dont dig or hit it fat, distance control is my issue.

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#18 Pepperturbo

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 01:30 PM

 kooch1221, on 21 July 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

 Pepperturbo, on 21 July 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

Presuming your talking about 60* / 12* -K.. .going to 60* / 8 -M will offer more shot options.  Depending on your wedge skill, it may require some practice time for full shots.  Differing sole design in the wrong hands, M may not be as forging as the K.

Regardless of conditions, M never digs for me.  As I said, depends on skill.  When someone digs with any club, mechanics are not correct.

Im a 5.5 index and wedge play is probably the weakest part of my game right now. I dont dig or hit it fat, distance control is my issue.

You shouldn't have the issues others say they have.   IMO - when someone digs with any club, mechanics are not grooved, smooth or executed with confidence.  The M sole is designed to be used under variable conditions.  Practice is a must.

Last weekend at a cheap muni I faced soft and firm to damp bunker conditions.  No problem executing the proper shot out of bunkers.  However, my buddy had all sorts of problems.  I asked him if he ever practices bunker shots, he said he doesn't have the time.  Least he knew he was responsible, not his club.  That's a common response too.  There are a few wedges specifically designed for people like that...

Edited by Pepperturbo, 21 July 2017 - 01:32 PM.

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#19 BackNineCollapse

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 10:31 PM

A lot of pros are switching to a more square set up (both face and stance) out of the sand.  M grind is very nice for this, and the higher bounce M grind is popular on tour.  If you play a more square face, there's not a lot of difference between the K and M, it's when you open the face (or lift the heel) that they play differently.  If you play square(er) face out of the sand, the M grind gives you K grind like bounce, with the added flexibility to lay it open or use the toe (the other big 'trend' in short game on tour) to chip.
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#20 b.mattay

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 01:40 AM

I think the M grind is more versatile! For me, the K grind was very good off "standard" (ish) lies but didn't respond as well to shots where the hands are lowered (eg. buried in the rough, fried eggs etc.) I had none of the "digging" problems mentioned above with the M!


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#21 Dayjobdave

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 07:03 AM

I carry a 52f and either a 58m or a 60K depending on the course.

The 58M was perfect for the sand at my home course until they upgraded all the bunkers to be much fluffier with a lot more volume of soft sand.   Now that they are much more beach-like, the K works better for me.  

Reality is that the m was and is fine out of the sand as well.  It's a little bit more of an open faced setup and more of a controlled swing through the sand under the ball with the M.  The K is just "hit the sand behind the ball and watch it land on the green"

It's been too wet to have any dry, hard conditions to hit off, but if that ever happens the m will probably make it back into the bag.



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#22 kooch1221

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 01:11 PM

 BackNineCollapse, on 21 July 2017 - 10:31 PM, said:

A lot of pros are switching to a more square set up (both face and stance) out of the sand.  M grind is very nice for this, and the higher bounce M grind is popular on tour.  If you play a more square face, there's not a lot of difference between the K and M, it's when you open the face (or lift the heel) that they play differently.  If you play square(er) face out of the sand, the M grind gives you K grind like bounce, with the added flexibility to lay it open or use the toe (the other big 'trend' in short game on tour) to chip.

I've always played bunker shots with a little open face to expose the bounce as I was taught. This is great on short shots or shots I want to fly to the hole. Not so much for shots I want running out to he hole. I'm finding for chips, pitches, bunker shots that I have running too hole  on average get me closer.

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#23 fawley

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 01:35 PM

I tried M and S grind in 54* and 60*. I went in expecting to prefer M in the 54* and Sim the 60*. From a clean lie in the fairway, they were pretty similar, with perhaps a slight edge to the S. from rough, bad lies and sand, it was no contest - S was much better for me. I found the S to be much more forgiving and versatile from those lies, and love it out of the sand.

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#24 kooch1221

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 01:49 PM

 Dayjobdave, on 22 July 2017 - 07:03 AM, said:

I carry a 52f and either a 58m or a 60K depending on the course.

The 58M was perfect for the sand at my home course until they upgraded all the bunkers to be much fluffier with a lot more volume of soft sand.   Now that they are much more beach-like, the K works better for me.  

Reality is that the m was and is fine out of the sand as well.  It's a little bit more of an open faced setup and more of a controlled swing through the sand under the ball with the M.  The K is just "hit the sand behind the ball and watch it land on the green"

It's been too wet to have any dry, hard conditions to hit off, but if that ever happens the m will probably make it back into the bag.


Course I play at most is definitely more beach type deep sand. I'm not sure the K can be bested in those conditions. It's the tight lie chips and pitches from 50,60 yards I am looking for something better

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#25 geochitown

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 02:53 PM

Yea, as said above I would have expected ease out of sand to decrease as one goes from K to S to M

I use S in 60

Cleveland 588 in sand wedge looks more like F type

I have a 56-10 vokey in an R which is like M but haven't tried it yet

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#26 sampga1976

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 06:01 AM

As many other have mentioned the M is the "jack of all trades" and that quote is direct from The Voke himself.  M is short for "My Favorite" as this the most versatile design that he would grind for the tour players when he started his wedge business back in the day.  His grinders personally call the M the "M****r F****r" as it was a real biooootch to make.  (This is also a reason why Vokey wedges are cast in 8620 and not forged, same every time)

The K is great from softer sand and softer overall conditions but many have difficulty in firm conditions with the shot asks for an open face.  AND believe it or not the M is better on partial and full shots because it has a larger leading edge bounce as compared to the K.  The K has, compared to the M, a sharper leading edge which will dig if the player doesn't have proper delivery on a shallower AoA.

With proper technique and the ability to adjust AoA, good players will be able to use almost any grind, but again the M is the go to for all shots... "JACK OF ALL TRADES, MASTER OF NONE"
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718 AP3 - 4i thru P - Modus 120 X (2º weak)

Vokey SM7
50.12F
- Modus 120 X
54.14F @ 54.5º - Modus 120 X
60.12D @ 59º - Modus 120 X

Bettinardi
Kuchar Model 1 Arm Lock - 42"

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#27 kooch1221

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 10:22 AM

 sampga1976, on 23 July 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:


The K is great from softer sand and softer overall conditions but many have difficulty in firm conditions with the shot asks for an open face.  AND believe it or not the M is better on partial and full shots because it has a larger leading edge bounce as compared to the K.  The K has, compared to the M, a sharper leading edge which will dig if the player doesn't have proper delivery on a shallower AoA.

With proper technique and the ability to adjust AoA, good players will be able to use almost any grind, but again the M is the go to for all shots... "JACK OF ALL TRADES, MASTER OF NONE"

Really I didn't know that. I actually like more or higher bounce in wedges and hearing the M has more then the K when squared up is encouraging.  I'm using my 58K to fill a lot of roles since my next wedge is 52*.Its my everything club inside of 90 yards

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#28 fly787

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:40 AM

the grinds are also made for how one plays the shot.  Do you lay the club open, M grind. Do you place your hands back a bit when trying to get the ball up out of a bunker, S grind. The grinds are as much for the swing as they are for the conditions.

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#29 Valtiel

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:18 AM

I definitely agree with what Pepperturbo has said. Forget everyone's subjective experience and look at the variables and what they mean in relation to how YOU swing the club:

More sole = More resistance to the ground + rapidly increasing effective bounce when opened. Better for neutral to softer conditions (sand and turf), and for players with steeper attack angles. Worse for harder conditions (sand and turf) and shots requiring face manipulation (with the exception of bunker shots).

Less sole (either by width variations or grinds removing material) = Less resistance to the ground and in the case of relief grinds, less rapidly increasing effective bounce when opened. Better for harder bunkers and turf, touch shots requiring face angle manipulation, and players with shallower attack angles. Worse for soft conditions (sand and turf) and in cases of Less via relief grinds, worse for steeper attach angles.    

Those descriptions are fairly general and are by no means concrete rules, any of the scenarios can be executed with just about any wedge, there are just better tools for certain jobs.

For example, I usually lean towards wanting more versatility so I don't carry something like a K-grind wedge. If I was in a super fluffy bunker then I would want nothing more than a K grind, but i'm just fine with my S-Grind 56 most of the time. I can open up the S-Grind a touch if I need to and it is more forgiving on fuller shots which I do use my 56 for. My 60 by comparison is the super aggressive V-Grind which i'd only use in a pretty firm bunker but works great for all types of weirdo flop shots and other green side heroics. My other 60 is a bizarre specialty wedge that I believe was made for someone on an Asian tour. It is very low bounce, wider sole but not as wide as a K-Grind, has relief added to the back to make it more floppable, and has the leading edge blunted a bit so it digs less. It is a great "emergency" green side wedge for drier conditions that I would never in a million years hit off of anything even remotely damp.

With all that said, I would imagine the M-grind would be fine out of a firmer bunker, but it would not be my first choice for anything soft. If you're looking to get more versatility than your K gives you then I might try an S-Grind first. Going from K to M is a very big change and while it will give you a lot more around the greens when you need to do something fancy, you might find you've lost a lot of help in anything but the firmest bunker shots.

Edited by Valtiel, 12 January 2018 - 03:21 AM.

Taylormade M1 430 8.5* Tensei Pro Orange V2 70TX || Titleist 915D3 8.5* Diamana Kai'li 80x
Nike Tour Issue SQ2 13* Blueboard 83x
Nike Tour Issue SQ2 17* Blueboard 103x
|| Nike SQ2 15* Blueboard 93x
Taylormade V-Steel 21* Project X Rifle Satin 6.5 || Ping Anser 20* Aldila Rogue Black 110MSI 105h Tour-X

Mizuno MP-H4 3i 21* Brunswick Precision FCM 7.3
Mizuno MP-H4 4i 24* Brunswick Precision FCM 7.3
Mizuno MP-59 5i-PW 27*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey SM6 52* F-Grind KBS Tour X || Vokey 452.08 DG X200 Black Oxide
Vokey SM5 56* S-Grind DG S400 || Vokey 456.14 Tour Issue Raw DG X100
Vokey Special 60* V-Grind Black Oxide DG X300 SSx2 || Vokey Tour Issue SM60-04 DG X300 SSx2
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29

#30 WidespreadPanic

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 06:45 PM

My SM5 M Grind is great in all kinds of sand. In my opinion it's the most versatile Vokey Grind.

Taylormade M2 ('17) 10.5*
Taylormade M1 (17) 15*
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Cleveland RTX 588 2.0 52*
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Taylormade TP5x

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