Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

* * * * * 3 votes

Golf Course Superintendent Ready to Answer Any Questions You May Have


140 replies to this topic

#31 Dseebera

Dseebera

    Newbie

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 14 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 474448
  • Joined: 07/10/2017
  • Location:Bay Area, California
  • Handicap:14
  • Ebay ID:Dseebera
GolfWRX Likes : 5

Posted 13 July 2017 - 05:21 PM

 mallrat, on 13 July 2017 - 05:03 PM, said:

 Dseebera, on 13 July 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

BNGL

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, this is fantastic resource.

We recently had our long-standing and very talented Super hired away by the PGA. We replaced him with his number two. I assume we did this for continuity reasons but I am curious about a few things regarding our search (or lack thereof) because I was not a party to the process: 1) how liquid is the market for Superintendents? when conducting a search is it mostly word of mouth or are there head-hunters for Supers? 2) other than apprenticing, what is the formal training (course of study) that one follows to earn the title? and 3)  [if not appropriate for public consumption please feel free to PM me] what is the comp range for Supers at private clubs?

thank you!

I may be able to help answer this from a different perspective. I work on the grounds crew in a different part of the country.

From my knowledge there is a website specifically for Supers and assistants. Here (in Oregon) Oregon State, which has a VERY highly (aside from golf they have produced the turf care managers for the last 3 World Cups along with producing over 60% of all the grass seed used in the world) regarded turf care management program, keeps a message board. Also around here the courses cherry pick other courses and will reach out. We just lost a Super to a course that is over 70 years old and he is the 4th Super in the clubs history. Especially because many of the courses around here are Poa courses which, I imagine, helps in knowing how to deal with it.

2) Oregon State offers various degrees in Turf Care Management which I believe is an off shoot of horticulture and the students choose their area of specialty, some do football fields others baseball or soccer but mostly golf. Our newest assistant super is doing his dissertation for his Masters in that field.

3) Word is the PNW is pretty low on the pay scale for Supers but the higher end private clubs get into the low 6 figures.

Sorry if I posted anything inappropriate BNGL, if so please let me know and I will gladly, edit or remove.

Thank you! very helpful

“I grabbed a pile of dust, and holding it up, foolishly asked for as many birthdays as the grains of dust, I forgot to ask that they be years of youth. ”

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#32 sethdavidsdad

sethdavidsdad

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,603 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 105964
  • Joined: 04/07/2010
  • Handicap:4.0
GolfWRX Likes : 415

Posted 13 July 2017 - 05:28 PM

Thanks for answering questions, great thread.

We are one of those bent grass course in the south. Over the last 20 years our greens have sunk in. Partly do to the collar build up and partly from aeriefications over time. How do you address this without totally reworking the green?
I have suggested sod cutting the collars and removing build up and replacing sod but this won't totally fix the issue.

Edited by sethdavidsdad, 13 July 2017 - 05:29 PM.

Epic 10.5* Diamana D+ 70X
TM Mini driver 14*
Rogue 5 Wood Diamana D+ X
Mizuno MP18's 4-5SC, 6-PW MB
Yes Callie
Vokeys SM6 52,56,60
WITB Link

2

#33 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 13 July 2017 - 08:04 PM

 TheRatt87, on 13 July 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

For your maintenance equipment, do you lease or buy?  Why one approach vs. the other?

I am guessing that the biggest compliant you get from golfers is about aerating greens.  What is your biggest complaint about the golfers?  Ignorance of the need to aerate?  Unrealistic expectations given budget?  Don't repair ball marks or fill divots?

Great thread by the way!

TheRatt87,

Hmmm that is a great question, and I don't know as that I have one specific complaint. One that drives me nuts is the members that start on 10, without permission from the starter or clubhouse staff, inevitably they will catch up to my guys and be irritated the course isn't prepared. There are always going to be people that wish the course was in better shape, and I am trying to provide the very best conditions possible within my budget. As far as aeration goes, yes all golfers dread it (even I loathe it, its a total pain in the butt!), but I think everyone understands the need for it. The only time I notice people are irritated about aerification is when the pro shop does not tell the golfers before charging them for the round of golf.

But on the whole most golfers I have encountered are mostly complimentary and curious about the work that is being done on the golf course, and that was a reason for me to start this thread, questions are great and hopefully I can help point you all in the right direction.

As far as equipment goes, we buy ours. Because then we aren't limited by terms of the lease, our equipment gets ridden hard and put away wet. Our mechanic does an excellent job keeping our equipment in working condition. We have equipment package with Toro for greens triplexes, carts, sandpros, fairway, and rough units. Once we get new equipment we then sell some of the carts or keep them for backups if need be.

3

#34 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 13 July 2017 - 08:18 PM

 Medic, on 12 July 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

Welcome!

I see more and more hybrid drought resistant grasses being used down here in Florida but it doesn't seem that those same grasses are available for public lawn use. It would seem to me that, with water being short at times, those grasses might solve a huge issue. Why aren't they available? (One local course has a Zoysia hybrid grass on the greens and it is amazingly beautiful)

Thanks in advance!

Hey Medic,

I do not have a great answer for your question, I can only speculate and infer based on what I know. In Florida St. Augustine grass is nearly ubiquitous. There are several reasons for this, it grows extremely well in Florida, and once it is established is low maintenance, resistant to bugs, and should be maintained higher (less cutting) just to name a few. Now personally I hate the look of the extremely broad, ragged look of Floratam St. Augustine (Floratam because it is a strain created at U of Florida and Texas A&M), but it is also one of the cheapest and as such it is used extensively by developers.

That being said there are finer bladed strands of St. Augustine available, such as Captiva which gives the same benefits of a floratam or Palmetto cultivars.

It all comes down to cost and maintenance in my opinion. I mean zoysia is gorgeous grass, I have used it extensively at prior courses, but it costs more upfront, and takes more time to maintain.

If I read or hear anything pertinent, I will message you. Hope this helped, I know it was not a slam dunk answer.

4

#35 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 13 July 2017 - 08:31 PM

 Charleston Green Apparel, on 13 July 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

Thank you for your participation and starting this thread!

My question relates to trees. Especially around the greens. Tree roots invade the turf and steal the water needed for the turf in and around the greens. They also block the airflow to keep the greens healthy. A lot of courses will put in fans to alleviate this. Why not just take down the trees around the greens to make it easier for you guys and make it easier to maintain the greens?

Hey Charleston Green Apparel,

This is the second question that I do not have a great answer for, unfortunately. All of the facts you stated are correct, the surrounding areas can be advantageous or wreak havoc depending on the property. That is why I have to be cognizant of everything around the problems, or potential problem. Every green is a unique environment, and that is why knowing your property and relying on people that have been there longer than you is so important. For example I have only been at my current club for a couple months now, and there is two 2x2 patches or so on the back edge of a 2 greens that were weak when I got here, and are still weak even after addressing them. Soil samples came back negative for disease or bugs. I asked around and found out those areas have always been problems, not an excuse for me to not take care of it...but it doesn't keep me up at night anymore.
Taking down trees is up to the super and the greens committee if there is one, otherwise its up to the discretion of the super.

Hope this helps!


5

#36 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 13 July 2017 - 08:36 PM

 Justmuckit, on 13 July 2017 - 04:42 PM, said:

Cool idea for a thread...thanks for taking the time.   Odd question here.

Here in STL, many courses struggle to keep their bentgrass greens from burning up.  However, there is a 100% bentgrass course here (Gateway National) that is ALWAYS in spectacular condition.  They seem to have no problems keeping the bentgrass from burning up.

I know this is a very specific question about a course you have no experience with, but any idea why they are able to keep an entire course of bent looking perfect while most courses in the area are losing their greens in the heat of the summer?

Hey justmuckit,

I have a hunch that you have a PHENOMENAL superintendent and grounds staff. I googled Gateway National, and if that truly is 100 percent bent like you and the website say, then the difference is the dedication of the staff and a decent sized budget to allow for the labor.

Thanks for the question, please feel free to message me with any question that you may have in the future!

6

#37 DukeOfChinoHills

DukeOfChinoHills

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 255 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 380802
  • Joined: 06/15/2015
  • Location:Orange County, CA
  • Handicap:5.1
GolfWRX Likes : 86

Posted 13 July 2017 - 08:37 PM

Thank you BNGL for taking the time to answer so many questions in this thread!

Do you see a difference between the quality of turf between your course in the PNW and Orlando area?  Does turf which goes dormant in the winter stay "healthier" compared to turf which sees play 365 days a year?  

Also, do you think course management caters too much to the "average golfer" by making the course play easier than it could for a majority of the year/season?
"You're still away."

917D2 - Mitsubishi Diamana Whiteboard 70S
917F2 - Mitsubishi Diamana Whiteboard 80S
913H - Mitsubishi Diamana 82S
716 AP2 4-PW - DG S300
Vokey SM5 50.08F & 54.10S & 58.11K
All clubs have Winn Dri-Tac Std. grips
Scotty Cameron Pro Platinum Mid-Slant 35" with GT Pistol Tour

7

#38 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 13 July 2017 - 08:40 PM

 mallrat, on 13 July 2017 - 05:03 PM, said:

 Dseebera, on 13 July 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

BNGL

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, this is fantastic resource.

We recently had our long-standing and very talented Super hired away by the PGA. We replaced him with his number two. I assume we did this for continuity reasons but I am curious about a few things regarding our search (or lack thereof) because I was not a party to the process: 1) how liquid is the market for Superintendents? when conducting a search is it mostly word of mouth or are there head-hunters for Supers? 2) other than apprenticing, what is the formal training (course of study) that one follows to earn the title? and 3)  [if not appropriate for public consumption please feel free to PM me] what is the comp range for Supers at private clubs?

thank you!

I may be able to help answer this from a different perspective. I work on the grounds crew in a different part of the country.

From my knowledge there is a website specifically for Supers and assistants. Here (in Oregon) Oregon State, which has a VERY highly (aside from golf they have produced the turf care managers for the last 3 World Cups along with producing over 60% of all the grass seed used in the world) regarded turf care management program, keeps a message board. Also around here the courses cherry pick other courses and will reach out. We just lost a Super to a course that is over 70 years old and he is the 4th Super in the clubs history. Especially because many of the courses around here are Poa courses which, I imagine, helps in knowing how to deal with it.

2) Oregon State offers various degrees in Turf Care Management which I believe is an off shoot of horticulture and the students choose their area of specialty, some do football fields others baseball or soccer but mostly golf. Our newest assistant super is doing his dissertation for his Masters in that field.

3) Word is the PNW is pretty low on the pay scale for Supers but the higher end private clubs get into the low 6 figures.

Sorry if I posted anything inappropriate BNGL, if so please let me know and I will gladly, edit or remove.

No not at all! The whole purpose of this thread is to educate and answer questions. Discussion leads to answers! :) I know I have a bunch every day, and any good super will tell you flat out that he/she does not know everything. Job boards are a great resource, there is one called Turfnet.com, I have seen postings for jobs at Augusta National on that site. I peruse from time to time, just to see where some friends are working.

8

#39 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 13 July 2017 - 09:06 PM

 mallrat, on 13 July 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

Random question, we are having trouble keeping water in our course right now. I guess the Super that left "tried" a new watering agent this year right before he left.

What is a watering agent and would you "try" something new knowing you are leaving a course?

Also, what is your favorite piece of equipment ?

Good Evening Mallrat,

A wetting agent (also called surfectant) is a product that is designed to improve penetration of water and promote uniform distribution of the water through out the soil profile which will aid in moisture retention, water efficiency.

I will try to keep this brief and as non technical as possible lol (FYI I love this part of my job!)

Water exhibits a polar nature, most soil particles are negative and attract with the positively charged end of the water molecule, this is called adhesion. So what you have is a soil that loves water, its is now HYDROPHILIC.

Now soils that lack the polar coating become HYDROPHOBIC, in that at the molecular level the soil is not attracting the positively charged water molecule. A majority of these coatings come from organic processes, and agricultural practices. Soil types that commonly exhibit hydrophobic properties are; sandy soils, soils that frequently go from wet to dry, and soils with high organic matter (especially close to the surface).

Now I could just run overheads, and run a hose to the green constantly but until I change the chemistry of the soil , the water will simply run off. Wetting agents do just that. They add a polar (Hydrophilic) and non polar (hydrophobic) molecules to the water molecule itself. This non polar end sticks to the water repellent ends in the soil and pulls the water in behind it.

If I knew that I was leaving a course, I wouldn't try anything new without consulting the crew coming in behind me. However if I did not know who was coming in, and something needed to be done then of course I would have to pull the trigger.

As far as my favorite piece of equipment, I used to love the sandpro especially when I was working on the crew. Nowadays my favorite toy is my moisture meter. I have one called a POGO, in addition to telling me the moisture content of the soil, it gives me temperature readings, salinity content, plus it has a phenomenal GPS in it. All of that coupled with their app is quite insightful and extremely helpful in irrigating precisely what is needed and not a gallon more.

9

#40 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 13 July 2017 - 09:26 PM

 DukeOfChinoHills, on 13 July 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

Thank you BNGL for taking the time to answer so many questions in this thread!

Do you see a difference between the quality of turf between your course in the PNW and Orlando area?  Does turf which goes dormant in the winter stay "healthier" compared to turf which sees play 365 days a year?  

Also, do you think course management caters too much to the "average golfer" by making the course play easier than it could for a majority of the year/season?


Good Evening Mr. Duke of Chino Hills

Who will be king first? You or the prince of belle aire?!?! haha I am only kidding.

Sorry for any confusion, I am not nor have I ever lived or worked in the PNW. I only attest to what I have read in various industry magazines, and heard from friends that have played or are currently playing on the PGA Tour and Web.com tours. I have only worked at golf courses in the southeast.

Maybe I am overthinking the dormancy health question, but dormancy is just a natural process. Especially for warm season grasses when dormancy is induced by colder temperatures, the grass doesn't die it just focuses its resources into the roots. The cellular processes that produce chlorophyll (the green of the plant) shut down. The only time I would worry about my turf going dormant, is if I was having weak areas going into the cool season. Now overseeding covers a lot of these problems up, because you are putting down a grass that thrives in cooler temps of fall and winter, but come spring time those trouble spots are still going to be there. I do not know as that I answered your question adequately, let me think on that for awhile and if I happen to come up with a better answer I will message you.

As far as course set up is concerned you gotta now your base that you cater too. Those are the people that pay me. When I was in Orlando I was at a high end resort course near Disney, lots of play in the winter (pretty much always full). We were not going to do anything on a daily basis to slow up play, high rough ultra fast greens etc. Our greens were slightly above average pace, but always smooth and the course striped up beautifully with the overseer. So yes I do think that courses for the majority of the year play easier than they could, but you want to be healthy enough to be able to manipulate it to cater to tournaments or special events


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#41 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 13 July 2017 - 09:35 PM

 youraway2, on 13 July 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

 BNGL, on 12 July 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

 aceofclubs, on 12 July 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Cool idea for a thread.....

Can you explain why some courses have ridiculously slow greens, even ones that are in nice shape otherwise.

Is it a pace of play issue?
Cost?
Just easier to maintain?

I live in the northeast where it can get pretty hot and humid in the summer and courses are pretty tree lined.

For instance i played a course the other day, expensive by my standards ($70 prime rate) and it was a beautiful layout, long, great condition but the greens were soooo slow and spongy. They werent excessively sloped or anything. Im not a country club golfer so i dont typically play on fast greens and these were some of the slowest greens ive seen.  

Thanks

Good Evening aceofclubs thank you for your question!
First let me start by saying that there are several factors relation to green speed;
Height of cut, amount of water being applied, soil compaction, and the type of grass.

Faster greens are more difficult to maintain, cost more, and do present a pace of play issue (at least to me). There are several reasons as to why, that is.
Faster greens are typically mowed tighter (lower), I know that a certain PGA Tour event in Florida has mowers set for .090 tournament week. (certain conditions might dictate that you raise or lower them, but .090 is the target). That is less than a 1/10 of an inch, when your typical municipal course is probably mowing at around .125. These fractions may not sound like much, but that is HUGE on a microscopic level. When you mow that tight, the wilting point of the plant is effectively lowered to almost nothing. That is why if you watch an event after play has concluded for the day you will often see crews with hoses watering greens, and overheads running as well.

Lower cut greens can potentially cost a lot more, because you are extremely susceptible to diseases, drought, and insects. This needlessly increases the pesticide, fungicide, insecticide, and water budgets.

As for the pace of play, quite simply not every body can putt a 10'5"

As for my course specifically my target speed is 9'0". I feel that is a good balance of speed and playability, but I can always get them faster for certain events. But every green is different, each is its own microenvironment, some of my greens are elevated and drain extremely well...those are typically faster than others and won't get rolled as often as the some of my others that are in valleys where water collects. (We also will manage irrigation differently to each green).

As for your case, I suspect that with spongy one of two things. It had rained a lot recently, that will make the property look extremely lush! But if it rains enough it can affect mowing for several days after. What can happen is the greens get spongy enough that the mowers will scalp the greens, even though the regular mowing height hasn't changed. Another factor to sponginess is the course is prepping to aerify or vent greens, grass is a living organism and needs to "breathe". The sponginess you are feeling could be gas built up in the soil that will be released upon aerification. There could be other problems that I cannot speak to having not seen the greens, or the soil. (I have been on courses south of the Mason-Dixon Line all my career).

Quick funny (at least to me) story about fast greens, while volunteering at the PGA Tour event I rolled greens for the week. During the process you see the Tour guys coming around measuring green speeds, and Wednesday morning, after two nights of chilly temps (sub 40), he took a stimp reading on number 10. As soon as the ball came off of the stimp, Mr. Cooper said "Whoa...." this ball never stopped, it slowed down but it just kept trickling. He looks at us and says just single roll the back 9 today. If I remember correctly they were just barely 14'0" Tuesday night. I think the average for the week though was 13'5" just ridiculous and pure as well!

I hope this answer shed some light on your query, please feel free to ask me anything at anytime.
Isn't reoccurring light top dressing a good way to maintain a smooth surface, increase speed and reduce thatch and grain?  Primarily on Bermuda grass greens I might add.

aceofclubs,

You are absolutely correct frequent topdressing is an excellent practice to help maintain a smooth putting surface. That being said it must be done regularly, otherwise you lose the benefits. At my club I actually top dress lightly once a week and verticut lightly every other week to minimize the thatch levels, and reduce effects grain.

11

#42 mallrat

mallrat

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,388 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 122361
  • Joined: 02/15/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 1282

Posted 13 July 2017 - 09:40 PM

What type of soil is your course based on? Do you have any experience on a clay based course?

Speaking of sandpro's, do you have to use a starfire on yours and if so how often?

Edited by mallrat, 13 July 2017 - 09:47 PM.


12

#43 ClarkGrswld4

ClarkGrswld4

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,674 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 74090
  • Joined: 01/30/2009
  • Location:Westlake, Ohio
GolfWRX Likes : 248

Posted 14 July 2017 - 12:37 PM

no question at the moment but just wanted to say thanks to BNGL for starting this thread and answering questions, great stuff!

13

#44 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 14 July 2017 - 04:12 PM

 Dropping 7 Hitting 8, on 13 July 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Great idea for a thread!   In regards to tall grassy areas (fescue or just areas the course lets grow out).  Some courses are very playable out of this thick stuff.   Other courses (in my experience lower quality courses) are wrist breakers (if you can even find your ball).

How does a super keep this type of area from getting so thick it becomes virtually unplayable?

Beunos Dias Dropping 7 Hitting 8,

If the turf is high and considered a native area, typically it just gets a mow with a tractor and a bush hog mower (I am not entirely sure this is accurate but the bush hog blades are turned by the tractors driver shaft itself, so we can a lot of high thick grass pretty easily, if anyone is mechanically inclined and want to add on please feel free). So it is basically just a crapshoot from I have done, and seen personally. When it is drier it is easier to lay from, wetter and colder it becomes more of a pain.

Some courses have what a known as environmentally sensitive areas, and those don't get touched at all. (I always found it a bit odd these areas, I mean if it was so environmentally sensitive then why did they build a golf course and housing development on that land? But I digress....)

Other courses such as Audobon Sanctuary clubs have to meet certain standards established by the National Audobon, what those standards are I can only speculate because i have never worked at an Audobon certified course.

14

#45 mallrat

mallrat

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,388 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 122361
  • Joined: 02/15/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 1282

Posted 14 July 2017 - 04:49 PM

We basically use a wheat cutter that doesn't bale the wheat. We have 2 machines, both are towed behind a tractor. I forget the names. As for the thickness, it depends on the turf or if it is mixed in with grass. We have a little bit of regular grass mixed in to keep it for being so thick it will break your wrist.

EDit... 1 is called a Pak Flail, I'll get the other name tomorrow

Edited by mallrat, 14 July 2017 - 05:43 PM.


15

#46 Cajunmike

Cajunmike

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 46 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 388934
  • Joined: 07/31/2015
  • Location:South Louisiana
  • Handicap:12
  • Ebay ID:Dusononliner337
GolfWRX Likes : 43

Posted 17 July 2017 - 04:29 PM

What are southern golf courses using as a primary herbicide now that MSMA has been banned?  I've got a Bermuda lawn that gets invaded from two neighbors one with bahaia and the other st augustine. MSMA used to wipe those out in one application.

16

#47 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 17 July 2017 - 05:25 PM

 Cajunmike, on 17 July 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

What are southern golf courses using as a primary herbicide now that MSMA has been banned?  I've got a Bermuda lawn that gets invaded from two neighbors one with bahaia and the other st augustine. MSMA used to wipe those out in one application.

Cajunmike,

Great question! MSMA or MonoSodium MethaneArsonate, has been banned since 2013? Although I think if you had any in stock you could still use for a certain time as long it was spot treatment only and areas less than 100 square feet. But you are correct MSMA was an extremely effective post-emergent herbicide.More importantly it was cheap!

If you will allow I can provide a quick background as to why MSMA was banned. There were water samples taken from golf course I believe in South Florida, that tested for elevated levels of arsenic in the mid 2000's. Now the obvious knee jerk reaction is to blame products derived from arsenic, there are not many that are commonly used, MSMA was thought to be the culprit. HOWEVER, believe it or not MSMA even though it contains arsenic , is far less toxic than common aspirin. That is because there are two kinds of arsenic, organic and inorganic. Organic arsenic is found in MSMA, inorganic arsenic is the dangerous toxic kind. The EPA never really clarified as to whether or not it was the organic (non toxic) or inorganic (toxic) that was found in the lakes of the South Florida golf courses.

As to what we use now to prevent weeds and other unwanted pesky grasses, we have to use a variety of different herbicides which are just as effective, but I might have to put out different ones to target different weeds. Some examples include; Revolver, Monument, Roundup ProMax, Fusilade, Illoxan, Tenacity, Solitare, Segment, Echelon etc. These are all effective post emergent herbicides.

The other angle we work is the pre-emergent herbicides. When necessary we will put out products such as Barricade, Ronstar, or Pendulum.

The other way to control is by maintaining good cultural practices that will promote healthy, dense, and vigorous turf. That is perhaps the best way to keep the unwanted grasses out.

Thanks for the question hope this helped!

17

#48 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 17 July 2017 - 05:45 PM

As a follow up to Cajunmikes questions if anyone does herbicide, pesticide, or fertilizer apps on their own...GOOD ON YOU!!! :) but as a reminder please follow the specified rates on the label. They are there for a reason, and if anyone needs help the conversions they are readily available online, if not already on the label. Also available are quick and helpful tips on how to properly calibrate a backpack sprayer or spreader to ensure that the correct rates of fertilizer are being applied to ensure a lush and vigorous lawn!

Thanks!

18

#49 youraway2

youraway2

    Just Old Sticks

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,206 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 25945
  • Joined: 02/24/2007
  • Location:Niceville Florida
  • Handicap:7
  • Ebay ID:youraway
GolfWRX Likes : 318

Posted 22 July 2017 - 07:19 PM

 BNGL, on 17 July 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

 Cajunmike, on 17 July 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

What are southern golf courses using as a primary herbicide now that MSMA has been banned?  I've got a Bermuda lawn that gets invaded from two neighbors one with bahaia and the other st augustine. MSMA used to wipe those out in one application.

Cajunmike,

Great question! MSMA or MonoSodium MethaneArsonate, has been banned since 2013? Although I think if you had any in stock you could still use for a certain time as long it was spot treatment only and areas less than 100 square feet. But you are correct MSMA was an extremely effective post-emergent herbicide.More importantly it was cheap!

If you will allow I can provide a quick background as to why MSMA was banned. There were water samples taken from golf course I believe in South Florida, that tested for elevated levels of arsenic in the mid 2000's. Now the obvious knee jerk reaction is to blame products derived from arsenic, there are not many that are commonly used, MSMA was thought to be the culprit. HOWEVER, believe it or not MSMA even though it contains arsenic , is far less toxic than common aspirin. That is because there are two kinds of arsenic, organic and inorganic. Organic arsenic is found in MSMA, inorganic arsenic is the dangerous toxic kind. The EPA never really clarified as to whether or not it was the organic (non toxic) or inorganic (toxic) that was found in the lakes of the South Florida golf courses.

As to what we use now to prevent weeds and other unwanted pesky grasses, we have to use a variety of different herbicides which are just as effective, but I might have to put out different ones to target different weeds. Some examples include; Revolver, Monument, Roundup ProMax, Fusilade, Illoxan, Tenacity, Solitare, Segment, Echelon etc. These are all effective post emergent herbicides.

The other angle we work is the pre-emergent herbicides. When necessary we will put out products such as Barricade, Ronstar, or Pendulum.

The other way to control is by maintaining good cultural practices that will promote healthy, dense, and vigorous turf. That is perhaps the best way to keep the unwanted grasses out.

Thanks for the question hope this helped!

Wish EPA would reevaluate their decision, now you have to use more than one herbicide where one took care of the job previously. It also increased the cost because you have to purchase more than one product.  Also control requirements and documentation is a nightmare, am I right?

19

#50 gr00vetech

gr00vetech

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 405 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 118989
  • Joined: 12/16/2010
  • Location:In the Bagroom, FL
  • Handicap:1.9
GolfWRX Likes : 55

Posted 22 July 2017 - 07:46 PM

Hot southern climate with bermuda grass and a redue/regrass coming up in the next handful of years. What is the current preferred grass to go with tees, fairways, rough, greens if budget doesn't matter? Also can you explain a valid logic for our super not verticuttting Tiff eagle greens in over a year?


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#51 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 22 July 2017 - 08:52 PM

 youraway2, on 22 July 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

 BNGL, on 17 July 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

 Cajunmike, on 17 July 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

What are southern golf courses using as a primary herbicide now that MSMA has been banned?  I've got a Bermuda lawn that gets invaded from two neighbors one with bahaia and the other st augustine. MSMA used to wipe those out in one application.

Cajunmike,

Great question! MSMA or MonoSodium MethaneArsonate, has been banned since 2013? Although I think if you had any in stock you could still use for a certain time as long it was spot treatment only and areas less than 100 square feet. But you are correct MSMA was an extremely effective post-emergent herbicide.More importantly it was cheap!

If you will allow I can provide a quick background as to why MSMA was banned. There were water samples taken from golf course I believe in South Florida, that tested for elevated levels of arsenic in the mid 2000's. Now the obvious knee jerk reaction is to blame products derived from arsenic, there are not many that are commonly used, MSMA was thought to be the culprit. HOWEVER, believe it or not MSMA even though it contains arsenic , is far less toxic than common aspirin. That is because there are two kinds of arsenic, organic and inorganic. Organic arsenic is found in MSMA, inorganic arsenic is the dangerous toxic kind. The EPA never really clarified as to whether or not it was the organic (non toxic) or inorganic (toxic) that was found in the lakes of the South Florida golf courses.

As to what we use now to prevent weeds and other unwanted pesky grasses, we have to use a variety of different herbicides which are just as effective, but I might have to put out different ones to target different weeds. Some examples include; Revolver, Monument, Roundup ProMax, Fusilade, Illoxan, Tenacity, Solitare, Segment, Echelon etc. These are all effective post emergent herbicides.

The other angle we work is the pre-emergent herbicides. When necessary we will put out products such as Barricade, Ronstar, or Pendulum.

The other way to control is by maintaining good cultural practices that will promote healthy, dense, and vigorous turf. That is perhaps the best way to keep the unwanted grasses out.

Thanks for the question hope this helped!

Wish EPA would reevaluate their decision, now you have to use more than one herbicide where one took care of the job previously. It also increased the cost because you have to purchase more than one product.  Also control requirements and documentation is a nightmare, am I right?

Good Evening,

You are a hundred percent correct, now not only have costs associated with buying more product gone up, but so has labor because now my spray tech needs to mix and make more apps. As far as record keeping goes it actually isn't that bad, if you keep your house clean and properly record the product you are putting out, when you put it out as opposed to later at the end of the day it is a piece of cake. The only major issue I have ever had is the Department of Agriculture Inspector showing up 30 minutes early trying to catch us with our pants down. I have a table in a binder in my office to record every single drop that gets sprayed on the course. I record the date, weather, person spraying, their license number (Or the person whom they are spraying under), product being applied (Including trade name, active ingredient, EPA Registration numbers), at what rates, location, approximate area to be sprayed, and the equipment used to put it out.

Most DAGs inspectors are pretty cool to be honest, they can sense pretty quickly who is doing something shady and who is following code. Just by the look of the shop, and chem storage room. If it is a mess, then it'll be a more thorough evaluation.

Thanks for the question!

21

#52 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 22 July 2017 - 09:04 PM

 gr00vetech, on 22 July 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

Hot southern climate with bermuda grass and a redue/regrass coming up in the next handful of years. What is the current preferred grass to go with tees, fairways, rough, greens if budget doesn't matter? Also can you explain a valid logic for our super not verticuttting Tiff eagle greens in over a year?

Good evening Groovetech,

Personally I would go with champion in the fairways, I have 419 at my club, but I have seen it and played it a club in Vero Beach that just regrassed within the past couple years, it is quite good and stripes up nicely!

As for tees my preferred choice would be zoysia. I love the striping and deep dark color associated with this cultivar, HOWEVER it is slower growing, which does not make it ideal for tees, but if budget isn't a problem...

As for greens you gotta go with bent grass, again with budget not being an issue...bentgrass in my opinion is the only true roll. However in this climate it will be a constant headache and maintenance nightmare to keep alive, it can be done though. Another viable alternative would be ultradwarfs, like champion, they are bermuda but designed to mowed at .100 (1/10 of an inch).

As for not verticutting, I have no good reason for that...it is something that should be done regularly. There could be some circumstances affecting his/hers decision making though.

22

#53 ArtMBgolf

ArtMBgolf

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 149 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 476646
  • Joined: 07/27/2017
  • Location:Delaware
  • Handicap:8
GolfWRX Likes : 40

Posted 27 July 2017 - 03:29 PM

 BNGL, on 12 July 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

Good Afternoon GolfWRX,

As the title says hit me up with any questions that you may have in relation to golf course agronomy, or why certain practices are done at certain times. Whatever the question you have, if I don't have the answer I will provide it for you.

Fairways, Greens, and remember to repair your ball marks!

As courses in the south upgrade greens to the Various Hybrid greens like Tifeagle, will any be wanting to
change fairways to a hybrid?

23

#54 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 28 July 2017 - 01:32 PM

 ArtMBgolf, on 27 July 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

 BNGL, on 12 July 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

Good Afternoon GolfWRX,

As the title says hit me up with any questions that you may have in relation to golf course agronomy, or why certain practices are done at certain times. Whatever the question you have, if I don't have the answer I will provide it for you.

Fairways, Greens, and remember to repair your ball marks!

As courses in the south upgrade greens to the Various Hybrid greens like Tifeagle, will any be wanting to
change fairways to a hybrid?

Definitely, I mean courses are alway looking for new ways to conserve resources, and researchers are always looking for ways to improve current cultivars, by making them more resistant to drought and pests. As far as specific strains I would have to do some research and get back to you. The reason hybrids evolved on greens was to maximize playability with sustainability. In my opinion, bent grass provides a true roll, but bent grasses are extremely difficult and expensive to grow in warm southern climates. So hybrid bermudas were introduced to blend the playability of bent grasses with the sustainability of bermuda grasses that thrive in warmer environments.

24

#55 spud3

spud3

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,209 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119423
  • Joined: 12/27/2010
  • Location:Portland, OR
GolfWRX Likes : 794

Posted 28 July 2017 - 02:36 PM

How does bentgrass fare compared to poa?  Here in the PNW, poa seems to invade everything, especially those nice fescue greens that just seem destined to ultimately fail.

"take that, you miserable
little white swine!"

25

#56 Gdpers

Gdpers

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 391240
  • Joined: 08/14/2015
  • Location:Allen, tx
  • Handicap:15
  • Ebay ID:Gdp1951
GolfWRX Likes : 0

Posted 28 July 2017 - 04:15 PM

Thanks for your insights
You mentioned fans earlier. Those things are loud. Any way to help,with the noise especially for people living near a green?

Also, when should they be operating, as some seem to run all night?

26

#57 carrera

carrera

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,232 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 139
  • Joined: 04/21/2005
  • Location:Northern California
GolfWRX Likes : 254

Posted 28 July 2017 - 07:06 PM

Cool thread. Thanks for starting.

My club has some hydrophobic areas around the course that our superintendent is addressing.  My green committee assignment for the weekend was to write something for the membership about hydrophobic conditions (what that means and what we're doing) and your above post was helpful.  We've got a bit of fairy ring also.

27

#58 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 28 July 2017 - 08:05 PM

 carrera, on 28 July 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Cool thread. Thanks for starting.

My club has some hydrophobic areas around the course that our superintendent is addressing.  My green committee assignment for the weekend was to write something for the membership about hydrophobic conditions (what that means and what we're doing) and your above post was helpful.  We've got a bit of fairy ring also.

Ah the good ol'greens committee....gotta love'em lol. What kind of fairy ring are you observing? Is it necrotic (dying) or merely rings of dark green? Fairy ring is a visible symptom of a fungus.

Fairy ring is caused basiodomycete fungus (think mushrooms), and what happens is one of two things.
1. They colonize in the thatch (Lectophilic)
2.They grow in the root zone (Edaphic)

As these fungi decompose organic matter, mycelia among other hydrophobic materials such as proteins, carbohydrates, and other organic compounds secreted by the fungus begin to coat the surrounding sand and soil particles contributing to an increase in water repellency in the root zone which leads to decline in turf quality.

Good luck with problems, I hope that they are cleared up soon!

28

#59 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 28 July 2017 - 08:24 PM

 Gdpers, on 28 July 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:

Thanks for your insights
You mentioned fans earlier. Those things are loud. Any way to help,with the noise especially for people living near a green?

Also, when should they be operating, as some seem to run all night?

http://gsrpdf.lib.ms...sing-8-5-11.pdf

That link connects you to an article from the USGA, (for all the people critical of the USGA for the US Open setup or rules decisions, and I am one of them, their turf studies are top notch in my opinion). I personally have never had fans on my course, but I understand the need for them and the concerns of the homeowner living on the golf course. You gotta be able to balance the needs of the homeowner with the needs of the golf course. Although this is just my opinion, not trying to be blunt or rude, but that is one of the unforeseen issues of owning a golf course home and while I will stop short of saying deal with it, you should contact your HOA, usually the clubs and HOA try to work toward a solution that pleases everyone.

As for when the should be operating that is up to the supers discretion.

Hope this helped, please feel free to contact me anytime!

29

#60 BNGL

BNGL

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 472816
  • Joined: 06/26/2017
  • Location:Jupiter, Florida
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 28 July 2017 - 08:31 PM

 spud3, on 28 July 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

How does bentgrass fare compared to poa?  Here in the PNW, poa seems to invade everything, especially those nice fescue greens that just seem destined to ultimately fail.

Truthfully I do not have much experience with either bent grass or poa, but you are correct that poa does aggressively encroach on everything. In my opinion it would not be a problem if the whole green was uniformly poa, instead of the clumps that tend to occur in the fescue greens. In fact that is what is happening to Chambers Bay right now, I know that they are transitioning from fescue to poa, in the hopes of landing another US Open. Again it comes down to money and what ownership wants. When a course is being built it is extremely easy to say that I want this grass, and this is what we will do to keep it etc. BUT it is another thing once the grass is actively growing and some courses simply cannot afford the cost of keeping the invasive out.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

30



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors