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Golf Course Superintendent Ready to Answer Any Questions You May Have


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#151 sui generis

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Posted 25 April 2018 - 04:35 AM

View Postmallrat, on 24 April 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:

View Postlawst4days, on 24 April 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

View PostBNGL, on 24 April 2018 - 03:56 PM, said:

View Postlawst4days, on 24 April 2018 - 12:32 PM, said:

Bngl,

I emailed my courses superintendent a few days back with questions about our greens. Here is the scenario.

Our course just changed our greens starting in June and ending in Sept or October. We went from bent to championship Bermuda. We are in North Carolina and have had issues with bent greens dying from summer heat and moisture. Our superintendent said the champ Bermuda would he up better in the heat.

For several months the greens we're in great shape. However now into spring we are seeing more and more dead/dormant spots. Some greens have really been hit hard. Some greens have up to 50% dead/dormant grass.

I sent an email to my superintendent to ask simply, why has this happened to the new greens we put in only 6 months back.

He wrote back that the weather has been cool and they have had issues over the winter. In my opinion basically blaming the weather being too cool for Bermuda and saying he was hoping the weather would break and heat up.

I personally feel like this is a scapegoat for my superintendent. Is it?

Other courses in our area have not been impacted the way ours has, even though they have the same type of grass. In fact I would venture to say of the 5 different courses I have played none have been impacted and the weather really hasn't been that bad.

One other course even started a greens conversion around the same time we did and also had issues with tarps freezing on top of the greens over winter and grass being ripped up. However the greens have already been taken care of on that course. I am not sure if this happened at our course but seems likely given the patterns on our greens.

I just need to know what I should say back to my superintendent as a follow up to his weather excuse.

I want to be informed enough so that I am not being mean or niave. But I do feel like weather is a common scape goat?

Well first off it's naive, secondly I'm not quite comfortable advising this situation. There's so many variables that go into things, it's hard to arm chair quarterback, and for me to "arm" you with advice is wrong in my opinion.

A couple words of advice, you're super has no reason to lie to you or anyone. Zero. I'm only digging myself a hole for which they may fire me later on. Unless you have reason to doubt his honesty, (previous situations, not this one).

It's also near impossible to compare course conditions between area courses, or even green to green at your club. Each green is its own microclimate. It's been a funky winter, at least where I am in Hobe Sound, and growing in new greens with wild weather isn't an enviable situation.

If you're a member of a private club or of a greens committee, then you'll be in the kept in the loop (generally). But if not, I'd just leave it and give it a chance to get better. Growing season is almost here, and it should whatever the problem is, take care of itself.

I appreciate your candor!

Reading back now I understand it would sound like I am trying to devise a "witch Hunt" of sorts. I was just trying to understand some of the factors that could be at play. The reason I don't want to email back my super without being informed is because I don't want to be naive or start a "witch Hunt".  I just want to understand what factors of a moderate or cool climate  impact championship Bermuda.  I wouldn't have set out for answers if I didn't care.

I wanted a third party input, saw this forum and that you regularly reposted, and it seems as though I have gotten it.

I appreciate the time and effort you have put into this topic and that you have opened yourself up to questions. Even as naive as mine may be!

BNGL may offer something on this but from a greenskeeper who has a MILLION questions, be honest with your Super. I have not met a Super (and there are some cranky grumpy supers) yet who doesn't like to talk about turf and turf care. Now make sure you approach in a learning manner, ask to have a cup of coffee or walk a green with him. Don't make it just about the greens that aren't doing well but ask him about other questions. If you get him chatting, odds are his knowledge about things will dumbfound you.

Just another perspective and maybe he won't have time and/or your schedules won't work but imagine how much you don't like the dead patches on the greens now times that by 100 and that is how much he doesn't like them.

There is also the chance that he is just trying to ride out another season or 2 until retirement and is on cruise control.

That's been my experience. :)

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#152 schley

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 02:53 AM

What mowers are the best for greens?  My club is putting together a bid for new ones.

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#153 BNGL

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 04:48 AM

View Postschley, on 04 May 2018 - 02:53 AM, said:

What mowers are the best for greens?  My club is putting together a bid for new ones.

Ask your mechanics, as to what they prefer to work on. Personally I much prefer Jacobsen mowers and equipment, although lately their service has gone to total horse poop. Our 3 mechanics are probably the best in the business, and they despise our Jake fairway units.

Right now I've got 24 John Deere walkers 12 26 inch mowers for tees and 12 18 inch floating head mowers for greens, plus an additional 6 fixed head walkers to use for sand mowing. 6 triplex mowers to use for vertical cutting, brushing, or mowing in summer when we are closed, or just to mow quickly. They cut very well, one complaint I have is that the reels on the walkers are dependent on the drive. What I mean is you have to have the throttle running full speed to get the reel moving full speed. The Jacobsen walkers had an independent drive for the reels, so one can walk slowly/controlled and still get a good cut.

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#154 mallrat

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 12:41 AM

Do your triplexes leave tire marks?

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#155 BNGL

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 12:27 PM

View Postmallrat, on 05 May 2018 - 12:41 AM, said:

Do your triplexes leave tire marks?

Not really, right after the mow yeah, but our turf is firm and resilient enough to bounce back by lunch. The only real thing to be weary of is following the same direction every time you mow, because then it'll leave a wear pattern.


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#156 DukeOfChinoHills

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 01:10 AM

Earlier today, Phil Mickelson said the USGA should use a "halver" (sp?) to measure the green speeds at Shinnecock Hills instead of, "...a piece of wood that they lift." (Stimpmeter)  I've been around golf for a while and never heard that term.  What is a halver and why does Phil think it's more accurate than a Stimpmeter?
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#157 mallrat

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 11:00 PM

This is weird to me because what does it really matter, the speeds are the same speeds for everyone, who cares how they are measured (directed at Phil not you). Just seems like he’s already building an excuse.

I look at green speeds this way. One of the courses I work at was designed by Jack Nicklaus. Jack came out about a year after the opening and played the course. Half way through the round he asked the Super (or Dir of Agronomy, same guy but forget his title back then) how fast the greens were.

Super shrugs is shoulders and says “I don’t know”

Jack “don’t you have a Stimp reading”

Super “nope but they are the way I like them”

Jack “what do you mean?”

Super “they are fast as h3ll but not so baked i’ll Lose the greens. Now does it really matter the stimp? Isn’t that what practice putting greens are for?”

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#158 BNGL

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 03:37 AM

View PostDukeOfChinoHills, on 05 June 2018 - 01:10 AM, said:

Earlier today, Phil Mickelson said the USGA should use a "halver" (sp?) to measure the green speeds at Shinnecock Hills instead of, "...a piece of wood that they lift." (Stimpmeter)  I've been around golf for a while and never heard that term.  What is a halver and why does Phil think it's more accurate than a Stimpmeter?

First off modern stimps aren’t pieces of wood, and I have not the slightest idea what a halver is. I’ll do some research. I like Phil, but he’s often too smart for his own good. Even if you measure speeds with something different, and use different units of measure. Once you convert it to feet and inches at 12.5 is still a 12.5.

Edited by BNGL, 07 June 2018 - 03:42 AM.


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#159 oldschoolrocker

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 07:35 AM

Any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.

Have an ongoing “mole” problem at the course I work part time at.  Have been fighting them for the last two years with limited success using smoke, bait (granular and worms,) and traps.  Thinking of purchasing a couple of solar power sonic devices to test out.
I understand about eliminating the food source, but, somethings are out of my control.

Any strategy out there that’s working?

Thanks in advance.

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#160 BNGL

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 11:21 AM

View Postoldschoolrocker, on 07 June 2018 - 07:35 AM, said:

Any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.

Have an ongoing “mole” problem at the course I work part time at.  Have been fighting them for the last two years with limited success using smoke, bait (granular and worms,) and traps.  Thinking of purchasing a couple of solar power sonic devices to test out.
I understand about eliminating the food source, but, somethings are out of my control.

Any strategy out there that’s working?

Thanks in advance.

Man we have that same problem too. We have some success with poison, just dotting the disturbed earth with the “mole candies”. We have traps in the summer that are effective as well.


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#161 RobYakes

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 11:02 PM

Thanks BNGL for doing this, super insightful. A few random questions from a grass layman...

1) What is the general go-to grass type for muni greens? I ask because I grew up playing in Southern California and have played out here in the DC area and have only once come across completely different greens than what I'm used to. It was in the Pinehurst area, and the grass had no particular grain, it seemed to grow in every direction and made putting complete luck (to be fair it was mid August so I doubt they were keeping them a bit longer due to heat).

2) I imagine that you've spent the majority of your working career in the industry at private or resort clubs, but what, in your opinion, would be some "quick" fixes maybe more fiscally strapped munis could do to improve their course conditions or keep their courses in better condition due to use and wear (i.e. move the pins more often, etc.)?

3) What are some of your pet peeves as a super when it comes to current golf course design that may seem necessary in terms of routing/length/etc. but from a maintenance standpoint is a waste of money or time?

4) Also in terms of golf course design, as a super is this current trend of "minimalist" design (aka Tom Doak) actually easier to maintain? And do you think the golfing public would/could grow accustom to more natural-looking courses where brown-out is seen as normal and not "poor quality"?
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#162 BNGL

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 06:01 PM

View PostRobYakes, on 07 June 2018 - 11:02 PM, said:

Thanks BNGL for doing this, super insightful. A few random questions from a grass layman...

1) What is the general go-to grass type for muni greens? I ask because I grew up playing in Southern California and have played out here in the DC area and have only once come across completely different greens than what I'm used to. It was in the Pinehurst area, and the grass had no particular grain, it seemed to grow in every direction and made putting complete luck (to be fair it was mid August so I doubt they were keeping them a bit longer due to heat).

2) I imagine that you've spent the majority of your working career in the industry at private or resort clubs, but what, in your opinion, would be some "quick" fixes maybe more fiscally strapped munis could do to improve their course conditions or keep their courses in better condition due to use and wear (i.e. move the pins more often, etc.)?

3) What are some of your pet peeves as a super when it comes to current golf course design that may seem necessary in terms of routing/length/etc. but from a maintenance standpoint is a waste of money or time?

4) Also in terms of golf course design, as a super is this current trend of "minimalist" design (aka Tom Doak) actually easier to maintain? And do you think the golfing public would/could grow accustom to more natural-looking courses where brown-out is seen as normal and not "poor quality"?


Thanks for the questions. Let me give some thought to these questions and get back to this by Sunday night at the latest.

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#163 augustgolf

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 06:11 PM

View PostBNGL, on 08 June 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

View PostRobYakes, on 07 June 2018 - 11:02 PM, said:

Thanks BNGL for doing this, super insightful. A few random questions from a grass layman...

1) What is the general go-to grass type for muni greens? I ask because I grew up playing in Southern California and have played out here in the DC area and have only once come across completely different greens than what I'm used to. It was in the Pinehurst area, and the grass had no particular grain, it seemed to grow in every direction and made putting complete luck (to be fair it was mid August so I doubt they were keeping them a bit longer due to heat).

2) I imagine that you've spent the majority of your working career in the industry at private or resort clubs, but what, in your opinion, would be some "quick" fixes maybe more fiscally strapped munis could do to improve their course conditions or keep their courses in better condition due to use and wear (i.e. move the pins more often, etc.)?

3) What are some of your pet peeves as a super when it comes to current golf course design that may seem necessary in terms of routing/length/etc. but from a maintenance standpoint is a waste of money or time?

4) Also in terms of golf course design, as a super is this current trend of "minimalist" design (aka Tom Doak) actually easier to maintain? And do you think the golfing public would/could grow accustom to more natural-looking courses where brown-out is seen as normal and not "poor quality"?


Thanks for the questions. Let me give some thought to these questions and get back to this by Sunday night at the latest.
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Hey, friend....give 'em the old slow play.....

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#164 BNGL

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 06:24 PM

View Postaugustgolf, on 08 June 2018 - 06:11 PM, said:

View PostBNGL, on 08 June 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

View PostRobYakes, on 07 June 2018 - 11:02 PM, said:

Thanks BNGL for doing this, super insightful. A few random questions from a grass layman...

1) What is the general go-to grass type for muni greens? I ask because I grew up playing in Southern California and have played out here in the DC area and have only once come across completely different greens than what I'm used to. It was in the Pinehurst area, and the grass had no particular grain, it seemed to grow in every direction and made putting complete luck (to be fair it was mid August so I doubt they were keeping them a bit longer due to heat).

2) I imagine that you've spent the majority of your working career in the industry at private or resort clubs, but what, in your opinion, would be some "quick" fixes maybe more fiscally strapped munis could do to improve their course conditions or keep their courses in better condition due to use and wear (i.e. move the pins more often, etc.)?

3) What are some of your pet peeves as a super when it comes to current golf course design that may seem necessary in terms of routing/length/etc. but from a maintenance standpoint is a waste of money or time?

4) Also in terms of golf course design, as a super is this current trend of "minimalist" design (aka Tom Doak) actually easier to maintain? And do you think the golfing public would/could grow accustom to more natural-looking courses where brown-out is seen as normal and not "poor quality"?


Thanks for the questions. Let me give some thought to these questions and get back to this by Sunday night at the latest.
.
Hey, friend....give 'em the old slow play.....

Take care!

lol I guess I am more laid-back than most but, but I do not get frustrated by slow play. I am not sure why though. I feel like I have other distractions that others have, significant other, house, job, pets. But I love every moment on the golf course. Golf has been the greatest thing I have ever discovered, and I wish everyone shared/saw golf the way that I do. Because I would not be where I am without golf, it paid for my school (all of it), got me my girlfriend (who is absolutely incredible btw), employs me, introduced me to some people (celebrity, political, athlete, CEO) that I would never have otherwise been able to meet.

Those are good questions, and I wanna give good answers.

Edited by BNGL, 08 June 2018 - 06:24 PM.


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#165 augustgolf

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 08:02 AM

View PostBNGL, on 08 June 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

View Postaugustgolf, on 08 June 2018 - 06:11 PM, said:

View PostBNGL, on 08 June 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

View PostRobYakes, on 07 June 2018 - 11:02 PM, said:

Thanks BNGL for doing this, super insightful. A few random questions from a grass layman...

1) What is the general go-to grass type for muni greens? I ask because I grew up playing in Southern California and have played out here in the DC area and have only once come across completely different greens than what I'm used to. It was in the Pinehurst area, and the grass had no particular grain, it seemed to grow in every direction and made putting complete luck (to be fair it was mid August so I doubt they were keeping them a bit longer due to heat).

2) I imagine that you've spent the majority of your working career in the industry at private or resort clubs, but what, in your opinion, would be some "quick" fixes maybe more fiscally strapped munis could do to improve their course conditions or keep their courses in better condition due to use and wear (i.e. move the pins more often, etc.)?

3) What are some of your pet peeves as a super when it comes to current golf course design that may seem necessary in terms of routing/length/etc. but from a maintenance standpoint is a waste of money or time?

4) Also in terms of golf course design, as a super is this current trend of "minimalist" design (aka Tom Doak) actually easier to maintain? And do you think the golfing public would/could grow accustom to more natural-looking courses where brown-out is seen as normal and not "poor quality"?


Thanks for the questions. Let me give some thought to these questions and get back to this by Sunday night at the latest.
.
Hey, friend....give 'em the old slow play.....

Take care!

lol I guess I am more laid-back than most but, but I do not get frustrated by slow play. I am not sure why though. I feel like I have other distractions that others have, significant other, house, job, pets. But I love every moment on the golf course. Golf has been the greatest thing I have ever discovered, and I wish everyone shared/saw golf the way that I do. Because I would not be where I am without golf, it paid for my school (all of it), got me my girlfriend (who is absolutely incredible btw), employs me, introduced me to some people (celebrity, political, athlete, CEO) that I would never have otherwise been able to meet.

Those are good questions, and I wanna give good answers.

And I feel the same way as you.

I couldn't work a 9-5 job in an office, and altho I did extremely well in outside sales, it is golf that makes me want to get up everyday 2 hours before dawn, and work til 2 hours after sunset.

It's people like you who make the profession great, and I, for one, am glad that people like you still exist in the business, because a lot have quit.

Hope all is well....drop a PM someday, and we can try to catch up a little!

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#166 BNGL

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 05:06 PM

View Postaugustgolf, on 09 June 2018 - 08:02 AM, said:

View PostBNGL, on 08 June 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

View Postaugustgolf, on 08 June 2018 - 06:11 PM, said:

View PostBNGL, on 08 June 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

View PostRobYakes, on 07 June 2018 - 11:02 PM, said:

Thanks BNGL for doing this, super insightful. A few random questions from a grass layman...

1) What is the general go-to grass type for muni greens? I ask because I grew up playing in Southern California and have played out here in the DC area and have only once come across completely different greens than what I'm used to. It was in the Pinehurst area, and the grass had no particular grain, it seemed to grow in every direction and made putting complete luck (to be fair it was mid August so I doubt they were keeping them a bit longer due to heat).

2) I imagine that you've spent the majority of your working career in the industry at private or resort clubs, but what, in your opinion, would be some "quick" fixes maybe more fiscally strapped munis could do to improve their course conditions or keep their courses in better condition due to use and wear (i.e. move the pins more often, etc.)?

3) What are some of your pet peeves as a super when it comes to current golf course design that may seem necessary in terms of routing/length/etc. but from a maintenance standpoint is a waste of money or time?

4) Also in terms of golf course design, as a super is this current trend of "minimalist" design (aka Tom Doak) actually easier to maintain? And do you think the golfing public would/could grow accustom to more natural-looking courses where brown-out is seen as normal and not "poor quality"?


Thanks for the questions. Let me give some thought to these questions and get back to this by Sunday night at the latest.
.
Hey, friend....give 'em the old slow play.....

Take care!

lol I guess I am more laid-back than most but, but I do not get frustrated by slow play. I am not sure why though. I feel like I have other distractions that others have, significant other, house, job, pets. But I love every moment on the golf course. Golf has been the greatest thing I have ever discovered, and I wish everyone shared/saw golf the way that I do. Because I would not be where I am without golf, it paid for my school (all of it), got me my girlfriend (who is absolutely incredible btw), employs me, introduced me to some people (celebrity, political, athlete, CEO) that I would never have otherwise been able to meet.

Those are good questions, and I wanna give good answers.

And I feel the same way as you.

I couldn't work a 9-5 job in an office, and altho I did extremely well in outside sales, it is golf that makes me want to get up everyday 2 hours before dawn, and work til 2 hours after sunset.

It's people like you who make the profession great, and I, for one, am glad that people like you still exist in the business, because a lot have quit.

Hope all is well....drop a PM someday, and we can try to catch up a little!

Well thank you very much my friend! Appreciate it. I totally agree there’s a bunch of great people in the industry, and hopefully many more aren’t driven away by the constant negativity (little pay, no time to play etc) associated with the job. No kidding, you gotta work to get the biscuits. Will do. Take care and play lots of golf this summer!

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#167 BNGL

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 07:06 PM

View PostRobYakes, on 07 June 2018 - 11:02 PM, said:

Thanks BNGL for doing this, super insightful. A few random questions from a grass layman...

1) What is the general go-to grass type for muni greens? I ask because I grew up playing in Southern California and have played out here in the DC area and have only once come across completely different greens than what I'm used to. It was in the Pinehurst area, and the grass had no particular grain, it seemed to grow in every direction and made putting complete luck (to be fair it was mid August so I doubt they were keeping them a bit longer due to heat).

2) I imagine that you've spent the majority of your working career in the industry at private or resort clubs, but what, in your opinion, would be some "quick" fixes maybe more fiscally strapped munis could do to improve their course conditions or keep their courses in better condition due to use and wear (i.e. move the pins more often, etc.)?

3) What are some of your pet peeves as a super when it comes to current golf course design that may seem necessary in terms of routing/length/etc. but from a maintenance standpoint is a waste of money or time?

4) Also in terms of golf course design, as a super is this current trend of "minimalist" design (aka Tom Doak) actually easier to maintain? And do you think the golfing public would/could grow accustom to more natural-looking courses where brown-out is seen as normal and not "poor quality"?

As far as a standard grass, there really is not one. Ideally, you pick the one that is in harmony with the climate and budget. If you can stick to those principles, you can save yourself a ton of headaches.

I would say regularly scheduled and properly executed aerifications, top dressings, verticutting and other necessary cultural practices. A lot of clubs tend to shy away from it, because of the perceived loss of revenue, and as a result will not perform cultural practices if not absolutely necessary. By doing those regularly you should have a healthy and dense turf stand that can recover quickly and withstand wear. That is not true for greens, but tee, and fairways, collars and approaches.

Green speeds. They are far too fast nowadays, because everyone wants firm fast greens for whatever reason. But the theres an old saying, "Rolling 8, life is great." that is true on so many fronts because slower greens are far easier to maintain. The grass is typically kept a little bit longer, and the greens are a little bit softer. Short and firm playing surfaces are really expensive and can be difficult to maintain, because you are more susceptible to diseases, pests, and suffocation of the root zone. But this is the ultimate do as I say, not as I do. I have gotten my greens as fast as 15+ this past season, not on purpose they just got that fast and were healthy enough we could push them (I thought that they would max out at around 14.5, but I got 15 feet plus on a majority of greens). That is what my members want, and expect. Although I know that i could drop a few shots off every members index if I merely slowed the greens down and made them more receptive to stinger chips shots my members are prone to hitting.

I am not too sure, I have not worked on a "minimalist" golf course. I would assume so, because you simply have less turf to maintain, my guess is you just weed it and occasionally groom the sand or waste areas. I hope so, I thought that the US Open at Pinehurst was exquisite, and I hope that more players can come to accept a little brown here and there. That brown is not necessarily indicative of poor course conditioning. Again, this is a do as I say not as I do, because I am given more than an adequate budget there better not be a blade of grass out of place lol.

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#168 Roadking2003

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 10:58 AM

View Postmallrat, on 06 June 2018 - 11:00 PM, said:

This is weird to me because what does it really matter, the speeds are the same speeds for everyone, who cares how they are measured (directed at Phil not you). Just seems like he's already building an excuse.

I look at green speeds this way. One of the courses I work at was designed by Jack Nicklaus. Jack came out about a year after the opening and played the course. Half way through the round he asked the Super (or Dir of Agronomy, same guy but forget his title back then) how fast the greens were.

Super shrugs is shoulders and says "I don't know"

Jack "don't you have a Stimp reading"

Super "nope but they are the way I like them"

Jack "what do you mean?"

Super "they are fast as h3ll but not so baked i'll Lose the greens. Now does it really matter the stimp? Isn't that what practice putting greens are for?"

I care.   I think most golfers would like to know the Stimp.  Then decide what speed they like.  They might be surprised.

Does it matter?  No, but I would like to know.

And BTW, if the greenskeeper isn't measuring the speed, how does he know all the greens are the same or nearly the same.

And shouldn't a club have a target Stimp rather than leave it to the daily whims of the greenskeeper.

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#169 BNGL

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 04:15 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 11 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

View Postmallrat, on 06 June 2018 - 11:00 PM, said:

This is weird to me because what does it really matter, the speeds are the same speeds for everyone, who cares how they are measured (directed at Phil not you). Just seems like he's already building an excuse.

I look at green speeds this way. One of the courses I work at was designed by Jack Nicklaus. Jack came out about a year after the opening and played the course. Half way through the round he asked the Super (or Dir of Agronomy, same guy but forget his title back then) how fast the greens were.

Super shrugs is shoulders and says "I don't know"

Jack "don't you have a Stimp reading"

Super "nope but they are the way I like them"

Jack "what do you mean?"

Super "they are fast as h3ll but not so baked i'll Lose the greens. Now does it really matter the stimp? Isn't that what practice putting greens are for?"

I care.   I think most golfers would like to know the Stimp.  Then decide what speed they like.  They might be surprised.

Does it matter?  No, but I would like to know.

And BTW, if the greenskeeper isn't measuring the speed, how does he know all the greens are the same or nearly the same.

And shouldn't a club have a target Stimp rather than leave it to the daily whims of the greenskeeper.

If I may, most average golfers do not know what a stimpmeter is or how we measure green speeds. They just know that it is a number measured in feet and inches the higher the faster. And you're 100 percent correct, a majority of time, they are surprised when I tell them the speed. When I was working a premier resort course in Orlando, I rarely got them above 11 (only during FSGA events or especially PGA Show week id work on getting them faster). But for a majority of players, that was way too fast.

Just playing devils advocate here, but a few of the most storied clubs in the world of golf, have different speeds for different greens....intentionally. As they should because every green is totally separate from the others on the property. One may be pitched severely enough that a well struck shot will not hold, one green may have too many hills and valleys, or one hole might be particularly exciting if players can go for the green knowing that they can hold it because it is softer than the others. One such club hosts an event every April.

Ultimately relating to mallrats post, the whole idea of agronomy is to keep things in balance. If i get going to far one way or the other, conditions will get bad and I will blow my budget on products and man-hours to get things back in balance. BUT if you are in balance long enough, then you can push hard for certain events. Because you will have healthy turf. Ultimately it comes down to communication, if there is going to be a significant change in speeds, just say so ad heres why.

Edited by BNGL, 11 June 2018 - 04:29 PM.


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#170 raynorfan1

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 04:27 PM

View PostBNGL, on 11 June 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 11 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

View Postmallrat, on 06 June 2018 - 11:00 PM, said:

This is weird to me because what does it really matter, the speeds are the same speeds for everyone, who cares how they are measured (directed at Phil not you). Just seems like he's already building an excuse.

I look at green speeds this way. One of the courses I work at was designed by Jack Nicklaus. Jack came out about a year after the opening and played the course. Half way through the round he asked the Super (or Dir of Agronomy, same guy but forget his title back then) how fast the greens were.

Super shrugs is shoulders and says "I don't know"

Jack "don't you have a Stimp reading"

Super "nope but they are the way I like them"

Jack "what do you mean?"

Super "they are fast as h3ll but not so baked i'll Lose the greens. Now does it really matter the stimp? Isn't that what practice putting greens are for?"

I care.   I think most golfers would like to know the Stimp.  Then decide what speed they like.  They might be surprised.

Does it matter?  No, but I would like to know.

And BTW, if the greenskeeper isn't measuring the speed, how does he know all the greens are the same or nearly the same.

And shouldn't a club have a target Stimp rather than leave it to the daily whims of the greenskeeper.

If I may, most average golfers do not know what a stimpmeter is or how we measure green speeds. They just know that it is a number measured in feet and inches the higher the faster. And you're 100 percent correct, a majority of time, they are surprised when I tell them the speed. When I was working a premier resort course in Orlando, I rarely got them above 11 (only during FSGA qualifiers or the PGA Show week id work on getting them faster). But for a majority of players, that was way too fast.

You bring up a good point, the stimp

I’ve said it on other threads...but no good comes from posting “stimp” speeds. We have a couple of high end public courses nearby that do, and they ALWAYS show their greens somewhere between 12’ and 13’. They’re really more like 9, but it’s a victimless crime, right?


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#171 BNGL

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 05:35 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 11 June 2018 - 04:27 PM, said:

View PostBNGL, on 11 June 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 11 June 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

View Postmallrat, on 06 June 2018 - 11:00 PM, said:

This is weird to me because what does it really matter, the speeds are the same speeds for everyone, who cares how they are measured (directed at Phil not you). Just seems like he's already building an excuse.

I look at green speeds this way. One of the courses I work at was designed by Jack Nicklaus. Jack came out about a year after the opening and played the course. Half way through the round he asked the Super (or Dir of Agronomy, same guy but forget his title back then) how fast the greens were.

Super shrugs is shoulders and says "I don't know"

Jack "don't you have a Stimp reading"

Super "nope but they are the way I like them"

Jack "what do you mean?"

Super "they are fast as h3ll but not so baked i'll Lose the greens. Now does it really matter the stimp? Isn't that what practice putting greens are for?"

I care.   I think most golfers would like to know the Stimp.  Then decide what speed they like.  They might be surprised.

Does it matter?  No, but I would like to know.

And BTW, if the greenskeeper isn't measuring the speed, how does he know all the greens are the same or nearly the same.

And shouldn't a club have a target Stimp rather than leave it to the daily whims of the greenskeeper.

If I may, most average golfers do not know what a stimpmeter is or how we measure green speeds. They just know that it is a number measured in feet and inches the higher the faster. And you're 100 percent correct, a majority of time, they are surprised when I tell them the speed. When I was working a premier resort course in Orlando, I rarely got them above 11 (only during FSGA qualifiers or the PGA Show week id work on getting them faster). But for a majority of players, that was way too fast.

You bring up a good point, the stimp

I’ve said it on other threads...but no good comes from posting “stimp” speeds. We have a couple of high end public courses nearby that do, and they ALWAYS show their greens somewhere between 12’ and 13’. They’re really more like 9, but it’s a victimless crime, right?

Absolutely I totally agree. There’s nothing good from posting them. All it is a contest to see how big it is, it just doesn’t matter. There’s some notoriety amongst players, “oh such and such Club has greens at 12”.....or “oh I heard that over there was 12.5.” Any time I speak with members of our club that rave about green speeds of other clubs they’re members at, I just smile and say, “oh wow”. Then I make a call and get the real speed from director of grounds, who just laughs and says, “about 1.5 to 2 feet slower”

It’s not a victimless crime...it puts me in a weird situation where I have to say no to a member, because he/she is a dope. I can’t tell them straight up they’re lying to me, so I have to get creative.

Edited by BNGL, 11 June 2018 - 05:37 PM.


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#172 mallrat

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 06:50 PM

We actually are trying to dial ours back a bit on the private course. Yesterday I did a single roll and they were pushing 13. The turf is completely healthy enough to handle it but that isn’t what our Director of Agronomy feels is best for the members.

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#173 BNGL

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 06:45 PM

View Postmallrat, on 11 June 2018 - 06:50 PM, said:

We actually are trying to dial ours back a bit on the private course. Yesterday I did a single roll and they were pushing 13. The turf is completely healthy enough to handle it but that isn't what our Director of Agronomy feels is best for the members.

Thats good to hear!

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#174 Destroyer

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:45 PM

Very cool thread. This is the side of golf that I enjoy.  My full time job is about 50-60 hours a week and last year I took on a part time job.  I began working in the maint. side of things at a golf course.  It's pretty damn neat to start mowing greens at 6 in the morning and watch the sun come up.  Sometimes I will work in the evenings doing practice divots and blowing the range off and various other things.  I really enjoy it.  The course I get to work at is The Honors Course in Ooltewah, Tn.

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#175 oldschoolrocker

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 05:01 PM

BNGL,
  I’m trying out those “solar powered sonic devices” to see if I can effectively keep the moles off the short grass.  I’ll post the results here after I have a chance to evaluate.


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#176 caniac6

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 05:02 PM

Watching the greens turn brown at the US Open, is there ever a time when the super stops listening to the USGA, or the PGA at a normal tour event, and just say the heck with you guys, I'm not going to let you kill my greens.

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#177 raynorfan1

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 05:29 PM

View Postcaniac6, on 16 June 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

Watching the greens turn brown at the US Open, is there ever a time when the super stops listening to the USGA, or the PGA at a normal tour event, and just say the heck with you guys, I'm not going to let you kill my greens.

Not at the US Open - the contract is that the USGA dictates everything and you should expect the place to be dead on Monday.

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#178 BNGL

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 05:51 PM

View Postcaniac6, on 16 June 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

Watching the greens turn brown at the US Open, is there ever a time when the super stops listening to the USGA, or the PGA at a normal tour event, and just say the heck with you guys, I'm not going to let you kill my greens.

No. Not during the US Open or any major, maybe Augusta but I doubt it. I have been a part of US Open setups, and a Ryder Cup. I have put out some product on a Wednesday night of an event, because we recognized the symptoms and knew that it would look bad come the weekend. But it was rarely anything that would burn or adversely affect the conditioning of the golf course, it was mostly just dye. I have gone as far as sodding a couple areas Thursday morning, redoing the landscape for TV Friday morning because the plants had checked out and we liked to have the name of the club under the 18th leaderboard, or removing pine straw and replacing with pine bark at the player walkways. At the US Open though, USGA agronomy staff gets it, they're are some of the best supers in the game, (If you guys complain about course conditions, ask USGA agronomists lol I'm going back and forth with the guy that does our annual site visits right now), I highly doubt they would let anything get that bad needing immediate attention.....except in 2004....oh and Olympic that one year the ball wouldn't stop on 18.

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#179 spud3

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 06:29 PM

View PostBNGL, on 16 June 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

View Postcaniac6, on 16 June 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

Watching the greens turn brown at the US Open, is there ever a time when the super stops listening to the USGA, or the PGA at a normal tour event, and just say the heck with you guys, I'm not going to let you kill my greens.

No. Not during the US Open or any major, maybe Augusta but I doubt it. I have been a part of US Open setups, and a Ryder Cup. I have put out some product on a Wednesday night of an event, because we recognized the symptoms and knew that it would look bad come the weekend. But it was rarely anything that would burn or adversely affect the conditioning of the golf course, it was mostly just dye. I have gone as far as sodding a couple areas Thursday morning, redoing the landscape for TV Friday morning because the plants had checked out and we liked to have the name of the club under the 18th leaderboard, or removing pine straw and replacing with pine bark at the player walkways. At the US Open though, USGA agronomy staff gets it, they're are some of the best supers in the game, (If you guys complain about course conditions, ask USGA agronomists lol I'm going back and forth with the guy that does our annual site visits right now), I highly doubt they would let anything get that bad needing immediate attention.....except in 2004....oh and Olympic that one year the ball wouldn't stop on 18.

And Chambers Bay....
"take that, you miserable
little white swine!"

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#180 BNGL

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 06:51 PM

View Postspud3, on 16 June 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

View PostBNGL, on 16 June 2018 - 05:51 PM, said:

View Postcaniac6, on 16 June 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

Watching the greens turn brown at the US Open, is there ever a time when the super stops listening to the USGA, or the PGA at a normal tour event, and just say the heck with you guys, I'm not going to let you kill my greens.

No. Not during the US Open or any major, maybe Augusta but I doubt it. I have been a part of US Open setups, and a Ryder Cup. I have put out some product on a Wednesday night of an event, because we recognized the symptoms and knew that it would look bad come the weekend. But it was rarely anything that would burn or adversely affect the conditioning of the golf course, it was mostly just dye. I have gone as far as sodding a couple areas Thursday morning, redoing the landscape for TV Friday morning because the plants had checked out and we liked to have the name of the club under the 18th leaderboard, or removing pine straw and replacing with pine bark at the player walkways. At the US Open though, USGA agronomy staff gets it, they're are some of the best supers in the game, (If you guys complain about course conditions, ask USGA agronomists lol I'm going back and forth with the guy that does our annual site visits right now), I highly doubt they would let anything get that bad needing immediate attention.....except in 2004....oh and Olympic that one year the ball wouldn't stop on 18.

And Chambers Bay....

Chambers Bay wasn’t directly there fault, it was the ultimate bad combination of weather and decisions made well in advance of the US Open. Could it have been managed better? Absolutely.


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