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3W vs Driver off the tee


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#31 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 11:20 AM

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 27 June 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 27 June 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

View Postchippa13, on 27 June 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

PSG, you're being too simplistic. You have to take course layout into consideration. If you're playing a cow pasture then sure, being a little wayward from the fairway won't hurt you but if you're playing a well treed course then being off in the rough is going to lead to much tougher approaches for an average Joe who can't regularly work the ball both ways but has to find a way to fit his natural "fade" or "draw" into a shot at the green.

And that's assuming you can even find the wayward driver shot in the trees and have a shot with it. I hit two 3 hybrids of one of our narrow holes this weekend, both landed on the edge of the tree line (not deep into them)  I only found the provisional and still had to take an unplayable.   If I had hit driver, it would have taken a lot more balls to get one I could actually play.

View Postchippa13, on 27 June 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

PSG, you're being too simplistic. You have to take course layout into consideration. If you're playing a cow pasture then sure, being a little wayward from the fairway won't hurt you but if you're playing a well treed course then being off in the rough is going to lead to much tougher approaches for an average Joe who can't regularly work the ball both ways but has to find a way to fit his natural "fade" or "draw" into a shot at the green.

Nobody is advocating blasting the ball where you can't find it.  We were discussing fairway at 240 vs. rough at 260.  Somehow now we're behind trees and not finding our ball.  Obviously I'm not advocating that you hit the ball into a penalty area or an area where you have to chip backwards.

A whole lot of people work on driver accuracy in a vacuum.  I'm saying its player-dependent.  If I can work the ball, my "accuracy" is completely different than a 20 cap.  The key to driver accuracy is to measure it *in terms of the accuracy of the resulting iron shot*.  Driver accuracy, taken on its own, doesn't matter very much*.

Measured over several rounds, it is very possible - probably even likely - that a driver that is a little less accurate but longer will result in iron shots that have a tighter proximity to the hole.

*This does not mean it doesn't matter if you blast it into a lake, or a house, or the woods.  But giving up accuracy for distance makes sense in a whole whole lot of cases.
id love to play against someone from the middle of the fairway all day long as they hit out of the rough 15 yards closer to the green. 2 players of = skill, ill take the guy who is in the fairway all day vs the other guy.

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You'd lose almost every time.  The study has been done.  Being able to hit an iron that is shorter with more loft more than makes up for the lie.

And it was 20 yards we were discussing, not 15.  Two clubs.  8 iron vs. PW.  6 vs. 8.

We don't have to argue about it.  Its a very good book if you haven't read it.  The number one factor in how close you hit your irons is how close to the hole you start because it is so much easier to hit a shorter club with higher loft.

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#32 JunkerJorge

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 11:27 AM

Not worried about the rough. I'm worried about OB. That'll put a kink in the ole strokes gained.

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#33 chippa13

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 11:27 AM

Hmmmmmmm, a 6 iron off a perfect fairway lie or an 8 iron out of the rough that could produce a flyer, reduce spin, catch the hosel and close the face or be thick an open the face? I'll take the 6 iron shot and meet you on the green.

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#34 Stuart G.

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 11:34 AM

Can't speak for anyone elses swings or courses,  but if I get a 3wd to stay in the fairway, I'm not loosing any where near that much distance (if any) because the 3wd will usually roll out and the driver in the rough will usually take only one small hop and then die were it lands.

However, the bottomline is that everyone has their own criteria and reasons for making the choices they do.  ANY type of generalizations are pointless.

Edited by Stuart G., 27 June 2017 - 11:37 AM.


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#35 tsecor

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 11:38 AM

Quote

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/1592407501

You'd lose almost every time.  The study has been done.  Being able to hit an iron that is shorter with more loft more than makes up for the lie.

And it was 20 yards we were discussing, not 15.  Two clubs.  8 iron vs. PW.  6 vs. 8.

We don't have to argue about it.  Its a very good book if you haven't read it.  The number one factor in how close you hit your irons is how close to the hole you start because it is so much easier to hit a shorter club with higher loft.
don't think so....its a busted theory.....and a business guy can say whatever he wants....playing from the rough is not the same or better than the middle of the fairway....as a golfer, how can you even seriously say this? no argument, it just doesn't make sense.

Look at Spieths sudden death hole....from rough to sand trap.....if he was in the middle of the fairway on his tee shot, you think it would have taken a miracle shot to win? he was just as well off from his tee shot? lol

Edited by tsecor, 27 June 2017 - 11:41 AM.


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#36 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:15 PM

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Quote

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/1592407501

You'd lose almost every time.  The study has been done.  Being able to hit an iron that is shorter with more loft more than makes up for the lie.

And it was 20 yards we were discussing, not 15.  Two clubs.  8 iron vs. PW.  6 vs. 8.

We don't have to argue about it.  Its a very good book if you haven't read it.  The number one factor in how close you hit your irons is how close to the hole you start because it is so much easier to hit a shorter club with higher loft.
don't think so....its a busted theory.....and a business guy can say whatever he wants....playing from the rough is not the same or better than the middle of the fairway....as a golfer, how can you even seriously say this? no argument, it just doesn't make sense.

Look at Spieths sudden death hole....from rough to sand trap.....if he was in the middle of the fairway on his tee shot, you think it would have taken a miracle shot to win? he was just as well off from his tee shot? lol

Have you read it?
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#37 JunkerJorge

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:21 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 27 June 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Quote

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/1592407501

You'd lose almost every time.  The study has been done.  Being able to hit an iron that is shorter with more loft more than makes up for the lie.

And it was 20 yards we were discussing, not 15.  Two clubs.  8 iron vs. PW.  6 vs. 8.

We don't have to argue about it.  Its a very good book if you haven't read it.  The number one factor in how close you hit your irons is how close to the hole you start because it is so much easier to hit a shorter club with higher loft.
don't think so....its a busted theory.....and a business guy can say whatever he wants....playing from the rough is not the same or better than the middle of the fairway....as a golfer, how can you even seriously say this? no argument, it just doesn't make sense.

Look at Spieths sudden death hole....from rough to sand trap.....if he was in the middle of the fairway on his tee shot, you think it would have taken a miracle shot to win? he was just as well off from his tee shot? lol

Have you read it?

I have read it. I think strokes gained is one of the best and most helpful stats for golf. That being said I still think the issue is more complicated. For starters: Strokes gained is averages. Scoring is personal. Different guys have different ways of getting it done. Statistics that are descriptive for a phenomenon, using an entire population, is not always prescriptive for an individual. Again strokes gained is a helpful, if not the most helpful statistic around. That being said there is no magic bullet.

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#38 JunkerJorge

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:24 PM

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Quote

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/1592407501

You'd lose almost every time.  The study has been done.  Being able to hit an iron that is shorter with more loft more than makes up for the lie.

And it was 20 yards we were discussing, not 15.  Two clubs.  8 iron vs. PW.  6 vs. 8.

We don't have to argue about it.  Its a very good book if you haven't read it.  The number one factor in how close you hit your irons is how close to the hole you start because it is so much easier to hit a shorter club with higher loft.
don't think so....its a busted theory.....and a business guy can say whatever he wants....playing from the rough is not the same or better than the middle of the fairway....as a golfer, how can you even seriously say this? no argument, it just doesn't make sense.

Look at Spieths sudden death hole....from rough to sand trap.....if he was in the middle of the fairway on his tee shot, you think it would have taken a miracle shot to win? he was just as well off from his tee shot? lol


The discussion is not as simple as longer in the rough vs shorter on fairway. You also have to consider that some of your drives will presumably be in the fairway, and some of your shorter clubs will presumably be in trouble. On balance being longer is better statistically. That being said, for my personal game, and on the courses I play, I am killed by penalty strokes. So best practices for tour pro don't necessarily apply to me.

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#39 tobiasjd

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:39 PM

Also for amateurs, at least in my case, missing the fairway could potentially equal a big number.  Hitting recovery shots from pine straw around or between trees is freaking impossible.  Pros make that kind of thing look routine.  I would gladly be 20 yards further back if that puts me in the fairway more often, where I can just play a regular full shot.
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#40 Mtngolfer1

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:41 PM

I believe  you have two ways to look at  Driver vs 3-wood off the tee.
  • Course management: Some holes simply don't require a driver off the tee. A 3 wood puts you in better position for the approach shot distance you are most comfortable with. I hate those pesty 40-50 yard wedge shots so in some cases to make sure I have a full swing with a club on my approach I will use my 3 wood off the tee.
  • Accuracy: I am fortunate that I have a driver that I feel very comfortable with off the tee. My accuracy with my driver is at least equal to if not better than my 3 wood, but I don't hesitate to pull either club based on what the shot requires. Accuracy comes down to center of the face contact and club head control. Being a shorter club the 3-wood is going to easier to control for many. I can only speak form experience and personal observation, but if a person struggles with a driver to the point that a 3 wood or other is required off the tee to keep the ball in play it is likely that the driver they are using is not properly fit to them.  Shaft Length, Shaft flex, Shaft design properties, Swing Weight and Driver loft all play a part in having a driver that performs well. two extreme examples are Ricky Fowler on the PGA Tour and Brooke Henderson on the LPGA tour. Ricky shortened his driver to just over 43"s to improve accuracy he felt he was already pliantly long off the tee but needed to improve his accuracy so he went to a shorter driver. Brooke on the other hand went to a 48" driver to improve power and add distance. Obviously Brooke felt she had the accuracy needed to control a driver of that length just as Ricky felt he has the power to support the accuracy gained from decreasing his driver length.  So its a matter of balance for each individual golfer.
Over the past few years I have gone through more than a few driver fittings and each time I have become more aware of what works for me. I have given up a few yards in distance for the sake of accuracy. I wont get into brand specific, but like most on WRX I have chased distance each time a new driver has come out with promises of more distance and at least on the last couple I have found what I gained in distance I lost in accuracy/forgiveness. The best shots with the other offerings were indeed longer than my current driver, but overall my current driver was still a better fit for me it was longer  on average and had better accuracy. It is this confidence I have in my current driver that allows me to play the shot off the tee that the hole requires. If I come across an improvement over my current driver I will make the change knowing I am playing the equipment that best fits my game. I have also learned that I will never again buy a driver that I was not properly fit for on a launch monitor first and a range visual second. The launch monitor gives me the data I need to evaluate performance the  range visual gives me the opportunity to put my eye on it for personal preference. Launch height shape etc.

A fitter recently told me more R&D money is put into the driver than any other club in the bag to make sure it is long and forgiving it's just a process of elimination to find the combination that works best for individual golfer. In my opinion, if those who struggle off the tee with a driver would take the step of going through a proper club fitting it would change the game for them. Edit for one final thought on Driver Fitting/Accuracy A golfer can go through a complete driver fitting and have a driver that performs outstanding for him at that moment, but if he/she does not have a consistent set up or routine that puts them in a consistent set up the results can often vary. I walked in on a conversation one day at my club fitter and he was showing a client this. He showed him the tape of his set up at fitting and he showed him the tape of his set up that day and both varied widely as would be expected the results with the driver he was fitted for varied to some degree. Step one to be consistent off the tee be consistent in your routine and in your set up.

Edited by Mtngolfer1, 27 June 2017 - 01:07 PM.


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#41 tsecor

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:42 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 27 June 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Quote

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/1592407501

You'd lose almost every time.  The study has been done.  Being able to hit an iron that is shorter with more loft more than makes up for the lie.

And it was 20 yards we were discussing, not 15.  Two clubs.  8 iron vs. PW.  6 vs. 8.

We don't have to argue about it.  Its a very good book if you haven't read it.  The number one factor in how close you hit your irons is how close to the hole you start because it is so much easier to hit a shorter club with higher loft.
don't think so....its a busted theory.....and a business guy can say whatever he wants....playing from the rough is not the same or better than the middle of the fairway....as a golfer, how can you even seriously say this? no argument, it just doesn't make sense.

Look at Spieths sudden death hole....from rough to sand trap.....if he was in the middle of the fairway on his tee shot, you think it would have taken a miracle shot to win? he was just as well off from his tee shot? lol

Have you read it?
i don't have to read it. Just watched the travelers......the guys hitting from the rough all day didn't win....and spieths last hole was horrible FROM THE ROUGH....and it took a miracle shot to win it....

look at his first round....all day in the fairway......rory's last round........did you watch Erin Hills? what golfer was scoring excellent from the rough all weekend? The business guy from Columbia probably doesn't have a formula for that.

Edited by tsecor, 27 June 2017 - 12:43 PM.


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#42 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:45 PM

View PostMtngolfer1, on 27 June 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Course management: Some holes simply don't require a driver off the tee. A 3 wood puts you in better position for the approach shot distance you are most comfortable with. I hate those pesty 40-50 yard wedge shots so in some cases to make sure I have a full swing with a club on my approach I will use my 3 wood off the tee.

Do you think its possible that what you are comfortable with and what will generate the lowest score are not the same?
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#43 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:47 PM

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 27 June 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Quote

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/1592407501

You'd lose almost every time.  The study has been done.  Being able to hit an iron that is shorter with more loft more than makes up for the lie.

And it was 20 yards we were discussing, not 15.  Two clubs.  8 iron vs. PW.  6 vs. 8.

We don't have to argue about it.  Its a very good book if you haven't read it.  The number one factor in how close you hit your irons is how close to the hole you start because it is so much easier to hit a shorter club with higher loft.
don't think so....its a busted theory.....and a business guy can say whatever he wants....playing from the rough is not the same or better than the middle of the fairway....as a golfer, how can you even seriously say this? no argument, it just doesn't make sense.

Look at Spieths sudden death hole....from rough to sand trap.....if he was in the middle of the fairway on his tee shot, you think it would have taken a miracle shot to win? he was just as well off from his tee shot? lol

Have you read it?
i don't have to read it. Just watched the travelers......the guys hitting from the rough all day didn't win....and spieths last hole was horrible FROM THE ROUGH....and it took a miracle shot to win it....

look at his first round....all day in the fairway......rory's last round........did you watch Erin Hills? what golfer was scoring excellent from the rough all weekend? The business guy from Columbia probably doesn't have a formula for that.

There is no point to us discussing anything if you are going to mock a guy whose book you haven't even read.  Take care and hit 'em straight.
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#44 gvogel

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:48 PM

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

I see a lot of members talk about using a 3 wood off the tee because the driver isn't working.......with todays technology and "forgiveness", you would think drivers are much easier to hit than years past. The huge 460cc heads are supposed to inspire confidence (I hate them personally), but its funny how a smaller head 3W with a shorter shaft provides that confidence to a lot of amateur players.....maybe club fitting should be geared towards shaft length along with the other fitting parameters. I know it is somewhat, but what are your thoughts? It seems a lot of people like the 3w off the tee because it flies straight for them....but the heads are tiny compared to todays drivers and I know the shafts are shorter.....maybe that's the key to good fitting. Sure you lose some yardage, but if it flies down the middle and you are confident with the club, hitting it 240 down the middle instead of 260 into the rough may save you 5 strokes a loop.

What are your thoughts?

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#45 Matt J

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:50 PM

I think the larger head being easier to hit is a fallacy.  Sure, the sweet spot is bigger, but controlling the face is more difficult.  The added surface area is also more resistance as it builds speed so it takes impeccable timing to hit a 460 cc driver perfectly.  I struggle hitting a draw with my driver, but can do so easily with 3 wood.  So, if I have to have that shot shape I'm probably going to pull driver.  I always try and remember it's only about 15 yards difference.  So, up to about 135 or 140 out I can give up 15 yards and not lose a lot of accuracy.  If the approach is going to be greater than a 7 iron, I figure bogey is already in play, so if there's no OB then I'll take my chances with hitting a fade with the driver and punching out of the woods if I have to.


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#46 tsecor

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:55 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 27 June 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 27 June 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Quote

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/1592407501

You'd lose almost every time.  The study has been done.  Being able to hit an iron that is shorter with more loft more than makes up for the lie.

And it was 20 yards we were discussing, not 15.  Two clubs.  8 iron vs. PW.  6 vs. 8.

We don't have to argue about it.  Its a very good book if you haven't read it.  The number one factor in how close you hit your irons is how close to the hole you start because it is so much easier to hit a shorter club with higher loft.
don't think so....its a busted theory.....and a business guy can say whatever he wants....playing from the rough is not the same or better than the middle of the fairway....as a golfer, how can you even seriously say this? no argument, it just doesn't make sense.

Look at Spieths sudden death hole....from rough to sand trap.....if he was in the middle of the fairway on his tee shot, you think it would have taken a miracle shot to win? he was just as well off from his tee shot? lol

Have you read it?
i don't have to read it. Just watched the travelers......the guys hitting from the rough all day didn't win....and spieths last hole was horrible FROM THE ROUGH....and it took a miracle shot to win it....

look at his first round....all day in the fairway......rory's last round........did you watch Erin Hills? what golfer was scoring excellent from the rough all weekend? The business guy from Columbia probably doesn't have a formula for that.

There is no point to us discussing anything if you are going to mock a guy whose book you haven't even read.  Take care and hit 'em straight.
im not mocking it. Im just saying his theory doesn't hold water, especially when you playa course like erin hills and your theory doesn't hold water either....but were off point anyway....the topic is the 3w vs driver.....should fitting be changed? I mean if you get on a monitor and field test a driver with a much shorter shaft but hit it straight and 20 yard shorter, shouldn't that be factored in?

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#47 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:04 PM

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

im not mocking it. Im just saying his theory doesn't hold water, especially when you playa course like erin hills and your theory doesn't hold water either....but were off point anyway....the topic is the 3w vs driver.....should fitting be changed? I mean if you get on a monitor and field test a driver with a much shorter shaft but hit it straight and 20 yard shorter, shouldn't that be factored in?

Its pretty on-point, actually.  You arn't getting straighter.  Your just getting shorter on the same line.

tee_off.gif

Which golfer is the "most accurate", 1, 2, 3 or 4?  Two are in the fairway, ones in the trees, one is OB.  Are 1 and 2, in your mind, "more accurate" than 3 and 4? (pretend the red ballflight line is straight).  If you had to place a bet on which of these players was the best based solely on this diagram, which would you pick?

If shortening the shaft changes the line, it should be done.  But if it just reduces speed so you are shorter on the same line, its silly.

More to the point, which golfer, above, would you rather be?  I mean, two of them are in the fairway...

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 27 June 2017 - 01:11 PM.

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#48 chippa13

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:13 PM

Without seeing the entire layout of the hole your question is impossible to answer.

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#49 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:14 PM

View Postchippa13, on 27 June 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

Without seeing the entire layout of the hole your question is impossible to answer.

lol, OK.
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#50 chippa13

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:18 PM

Depending on the hole layout, I could rather be any of the 4 players. Does it bend to the left past your fairway? Does it bend to the right? Is it straight out? An argument could be made for each ball on which I would rather be on that hole.


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#51 JunkerJorge

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:23 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 27 June 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

im not mocking it. Im just saying his theory doesn't hold water, especially when you playa course like erin hills and your theory doesn't hold water either....but were off point anyway....the topic is the 3w vs driver.....should fitting be changed? I mean if you get on a monitor and field test a driver with a much shorter shaft but hit it straight and 20 yard shorter, shouldn't that be factored in?

Its pretty on-point, actually.  You arn't getting straighter.  Your just getting shorter on the same line.

tee_off.gif

Which golfer is the "most accurate", 1, 2, 3 or 4?  Two are in the fairway, ones in the trees, one is OB.  Are 1 and 2, in your mind, "more accurate" than 3 and 4? (pretend the red ballflight line is straight).  If you had to place a bet on which of these players was the best based solely on this diagram, which would you pick?

If shortening the shaft changes the line, it should be done.  But if it just reduces speed so you are shorter on the same line, its silly.

More to the point, which golfer, above, would you rather be?  I mean, two of them are in the fairway...

This is helpful. If you think of accuracy in terms of degrees offline then your driver may be as or more accurate than other clubs. However, on a tight hole w OB a driver at x degrees offline may be OB whereas a hybrid is fine. Accuracy may not be the correct term but a shorter club brings less trouble into play. Depending on your miss range some people, as Harvey Penick said, might be better off with the Driver in their closet.

I would take any of those positions over OB.

Edited by JunkerJorge, 27 June 2017 - 01:25 PM.


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#52 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:33 PM

View Postchippa13, on 27 June 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

Depending on the hole layout, I could rather be any of the 4 players. Does it bend to the left past your fairway? Does it bend to the right? Is it straight out? An argument could be made for each ball on which I would rather be on that hole.

I meant which player in general not that hole. They all hit driver. Obviously if you don't know where the green is you can't know for that hole.
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#53 chippa13

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:43 PM

I'd say none of them should be hitting driver. The first two obviously can't take advantage of any increased distance and the second 2 are very out of control with it.

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#54 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:48 PM

View PostJunkerJorge, on 27 June 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 27 June 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

im not mocking it. Im just saying his theory doesn't hold water, especially when you playa course like erin hills and your theory doesn't hold water either....but were off point anyway....the topic is the 3w vs driver.....should fitting be changed? I mean if you get on a monitor and field test a driver with a much shorter shaft but hit it straight and 20 yard shorter, shouldn't that be factored in?

Its pretty on-point, actually.  You arn't getting straighter.  Your just getting shorter on the same line.

tee_off.gif

Which golfer is the "most accurate", 1, 2, 3 or 4?  Two are in the fairway, ones in the trees, one is OB.  Are 1 and 2, in your mind, "more accurate" than 3 and 4? (pretend the red ballflight line is straight).  If you had to place a bet on which of these players was the best based solely on this diagram, which would you pick?

If shortening the shaft changes the line, it should be done.  But if it just reduces speed so you are shorter on the same line, its silly.

More to the point, which golfer, above, would you rather be?  I mean, two of them are in the fairway...

This is helpful. If you think of accuracy in terms of degrees offline then your driver may be as or more accurate than other clubs. However, on a tight hole w OB a driver at x degrees offline may be OB whereas a hybrid is fine. Accuracy may not be the correct term but a shorter club brings less trouble into play. Depending on your miss range some people, as Harvey Penick said, might be better off with the Driver in their closet.

I would take any of those positions over OB.

The point isn't that hole.  Its that being in the fairway and accuracy don't have that much to do with each other.  Shorter hitters arn't more accurate, but they are in the fairway a whole lot more.  Being in the fairway is a cocktail of aim line, club choice, distance and impact.  Being accurate is your path and face at impact.  Its insane to purposefully make yourself shorter to be in the fairway more.  Its an optical illusion.  Your not more accurate, you are just shorter.  A whole lot of people get fooled by this.  Missing the same just shorter isn't better.  Its worse.  There may be some holes where its better in the short-term, but over time its much worse to miss short on the same line than long.

Nobody ever misses a fairway and says "dang, I hit it too far for that aim line", but that is usually what is actually happening.  Its not your accuracy *unless* you isolate the variable.  You have no idea if you are 1,2,3 or 4 in the drawing above.  Until/unless you do, you can't fix it no matter how many times you get fit.

View Postchippa13, on 27 June 2017 - 01:43 PM, said:

I'd say none of them should be hitting driver. The first two obviously can't take advantage of any increased distance and the second 2 are very out of control with it.

Which do you think is the most accurate?  

Three earlier posters had said they want accuracy so they can be in the fairway.  That was the question I asked you, not what club should someone hit.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 27 June 2017 - 01:51 PM.

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#55 gambit

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:51 PM

View PostDaRiz, on 27 June 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

My thoughts are that if you can routinely square up a 43" 3 wood, but not a 45" driver, then that driver is too long for you

I'm 6'1 and chopped mine down to 44" and my accuracy has skyrocketed. Ricky is at 43.5" in his driver now (but he's a little guy)

The OEMs are never going to push this as stock because it doesn't allow them to make the same distance claims, but I have noticed a lot more talk about this on golf broadcasts as well as this forum

I'm thinking of chopping my driver down to 44" too. Just wondering how much distance, if any, you lost on well struck shots?

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#56 chippa13

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:52 PM

Well, I don't know what they were aiming at or how far they intended to hit it. Was 4 just lined up poorly to target or did he just block one out that way because he was late? Was 2 laying up for an angle at the pin? Just putting 4 numbers along a random straightish line doesn't make for much of a scientific discussion.

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#57 RogerinNewZealand

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:56 PM

3 or 4 years ago i got a Ping G5 13 fairway, put a V2 65 regular in it.
That went 200 metres Dead Centre for me, but the shaft was still too stiff so sold it.

Right now i am awaiting a TM  3wd Burner 2008 to test vs a 3 V Steel and 3 TM200
The 5 and 7 V Steel are excellent.

I recently re did the wedges Vokey SM5  48 54 60.
I look to get down to the 90 metre marker in 2 or 3 knowing i have a reasonable short game and great putter to save me.

I am the opposite of most of you guys.
I only practice Putting and then Chipnruns at 22 metre.
I hit 14 fairways 10 days ago in Huge Fog.....and at a new course !
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#58 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:59 PM

View Postchippa13, on 27 June 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

Well, I don't know what they were aiming at or how far they intended to hit it. Was 4 just lined up poorly to target or did he just block one out that way because he was late? Was 2 laying up for an angle at the pin? Just putting 4 numbers along a random straightish line doesn't make for much of a scientific discussion.

This is why I said "lol" in my first response post.  You know exactly what I'm driving at and you are avoiding it.  4 didn't "block it" he hit the exact same line as the other three.

The point is that if cutting your shaft down *Changes* the red line, you should do it.  If it simply moves you backwards along the same line, you should not do it.
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#59 JunkerJorge

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 02:02 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 27 June 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

View PostJunkerJorge, on 27 June 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 27 June 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

View Posttsecor, on 27 June 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

im not mocking it. Im just saying his theory doesn't hold water, especially when you playa course like erin hills and your theory doesn't hold water either....but were off point anyway....the topic is the 3w vs driver.....should fitting be changed? I mean if you get on a monitor and field test a driver with a much shorter shaft but hit it straight and 20 yard shorter, shouldn't that be factored in?

Its pretty on-point, actually.  You arn't getting straighter.  Your just getting shorter on the same line.

tee_off.gif

Which golfer is the "most accurate", 1, 2, 3 or 4?  Two are in the fairway, ones in the trees, one is OB.  Are 1 and 2, in your mind, "more accurate" than 3 and 4? (pretend the red ballflight line is straight).  If you had to place a bet on which of these players was the best based solely on this diagram, which would you pick?

If shortening the shaft changes the line, it should be done.  But if it just reduces speed so you are shorter on the same line, its silly.

More to the point, which golfer, above, would you rather be?  I mean, two of them are in the fairway...

This is helpful. If you think of accuracy in terms of degrees offline then your driver may be as or more accurate than other clubs. However, on a tight hole w OB a driver at x degrees offline may be OB whereas a hybrid is fine. Accuracy may not be the correct term but a shorter club brings less trouble into play. Depending on your miss range some people, as Harvey Penick said, might be better off with the Driver in their closet.

I would take any of those positions over OB.

The point isn't that hole.  Its that being in the fairway and accuracy don't have that much to do with each other.  Shorter hitters arn't more accurate, but they are in the fairway a whole lot more.  Being in the fairway is a cocktail of aim line, club choice, distance and impact.  Being accurate is your path and face at impact.  Its insane to purposefully make yourself shorter to be in the fairway more.  Its an optical illusion.  Your not more accurate, you are just shorter.  A whole lot of people get fooled by this.  Missing the same just shorter isn't better.  Its worse.  There may be some holes where its better in the short-term, but over time its much worse to miss short on the same line than long.

Nobody ever misses a fairway and says "dang, I hit it too far for that aim line", but that is usually what is actually happening.  Its not your accuracy *unless* you isolate the variable.  You have no idea if you are 1,2,3 or 4 in the drawing above.  Until/unless you do, you can't fix it no matter how many times you get fit.

View Postchippa13, on 27 June 2017 - 01:43 PM, said:

I'd say none of them should be hitting driver. The first two obviously can't take advantage of any increased distance and the second 2 are very out of control with it.

Which do you think is the most accurate?  

Three earlier posters had said they want accuracy so they can be in the fairway.  That was the question I asked you, not what club should someone hit.

I understand what you are saying. I understand that shorter does not make you straighter in terms of degrees offline. I understand that longer is typically better than short. What I am saying is that longer and crooked can get you in more trouble than shorter and crooked. I'm not saying a fw wood or an iron is technically straighter. I am saying it can bring less trouble into play. If the course is wide open by all means have a swing. But to say anything other than driver is stupid because of stats I think is incorrect.

For example take a high handicapper with decently high swing speed. This person is going to lose a lot less balls on a tight hole going with less club. It might not be the right play for Rory, but it would be the right play for him. If driver on every tee is always the right play than why do pros, many of whom employ statisticians, hit less drivers off the tee than most of us?

Edited by JunkerJorge, 27 June 2017 - 02:04 PM.


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#60 gambit

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 02:02 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 27 June 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:


The point isn't that hole.  Its that being in the fairway and accuracy don't have that much to do with each other.  Shorter hitters arn't more accurate, but they are in the fairway a whole lot more.  Being in the fairway is a cocktail of aim line, club choice, distance and impact.  Being accurate is your path and face at impact.  Its insane to purposefully make yourself shorter to be in the fairway more.  Its an optical illusion.  Your not more accurate, you are just shorter.  A whole lot of people get fooled by this.  Missing the same just shorter isn't better.  Its worse.  There may be some holes where its better in the short-term, but over time its much worse to miss short on the same line than long.

Nobody ever misses a fairway and says "dang, I hit it too far for that aim line", but that is usually what is actually happening.  Its not your accuracy *unless* you isolate the variable.  You have no idea if you are 1,2,3 or 4 in the drawing above.  Until/unless you do, you can't fix it no matter how many times you get fit.

I disagree with this. I get what you're saying, but a lot of times a shorter club leads to better face angle, strike, and angle of attack. Playing a club too long can make one feel stuck so they do things they normally don't do in order to compensate. I'm sure there are plenty of times where a shorter driver leads to the results you mentioned, but it's not an absolute.

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