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3W vs Driver off the tee


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#1411 bervin

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 01:18 PM

View PostNeed2golfalot, on 22 March 2018 - 01:11 PM, said:

The skewed aspect of GIR and putts per round is when you play a course with small greens and several shots end up on the fringe.

You're correct, but you are scraping just the tip of the iceberg.  This is only one variable of on-course reality that can impact the significance of your statistics.  There are many, many more variables that impact the data, too.

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#1412 nosedive32

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 01:23 PM

I generally play a cut with the driver. If there's trouble or just not room left I get really uncomfortable and usually hit a big block or duck hook. So on dogleg lefts I take 3 Wood because I can turn it over
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#1413 Bubbtubbs

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 04:25 PM

View Postbervin, on 22 March 2018 - 01:16 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 22 March 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

View Postbervin, on 22 March 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

View Postmahonie, on 21 March 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

Iíve got most rounds from the last 10 years logged in the back of my Filofax (remember them?). Basic Fairways hit, GIR, Putting distance holed, number of putts, scrambling, 1-putts and 3-putts, birdies, pars, bogeys, doubles, other. Over time I noticed that my fairways hit was pretty constant, but everything else was fairly inconsistent. I could hit 14 GIR but take 38 putts and shoot 85 or hit 8 GIR, take 28 putts and shoot 80. I could also hit 8 GIR and take 38 putts and shoot 94. Putting and chipping is easiest for me to practice so I focussed on that. I got my scrambling percentage up from 30% to nearer 50% and got my average number of putts down to 30 from 34. I can still shoot 94 but those rounds are a lot rarer now. I can also break 80 more regularly now and shoot low 70s when everything clicks (not that often). From my stats, I know my next area for improvement is 85-120 yards in and thatís where Iím currently focussing my attention. Thing I have noticed is that it takes ages for any improvement to show up in my stats...itís very gradual increments.

Speculating here, but perhaps the reason it takes so long to see movement in your stats is because of the nature of the "stat" itself.  GIR, for example, is incredibly vague and has a number of variables that impact it.  Just marking Yes/No in a GIR column doesn't tell you what you actually need to know to determine where improvement needs to be made.  Let's take your 85-120 yard comment as an example.  How do you know you need improvement from that range?  Is it just speculative, or what you think needs improving because maybe you don't have enough 10 footers for birdie?  That would be a bit unrealistic.  If you were to keep information about what yardages, lies, course conditions, etc. these GIRs are hit or missed from, and what distance from the hole your GIRs are, or where you missed when you don't get one, it would give you a much more granular look into the details.  The devil is in the details and that is where you can identify strengths and weaknesses.  I don't think most golfers need to go into this kind of detail to play a game they just want to enjoy, but if you are an analytical proponent, then just thought I'd chime in for your consideration.  The reality is you might be tour average from 85-120 and just have unrealistic expectations when you actually need to improve on ballstriking from 150 +.  Again, just a made up example, but food for thought.

I'm not clear how mahonie arrived at the 85-120 yard conclusion from the stats from the stats he listed (Fairways hit, GIR, Putting distance holed, number of putts, scrambling, 1-putts and 3-putts, birdies, pars, bogeys, doubles, other). Those are all either scoring or "counting" stats with nary a distance to be found except for "putting distance holed".

To amplify on bervin's point, if you want to analyze your game instead of simply counting things up and watching them change (or not) over time then you start and end with distances. If you can't look back through the stats and see how shots from 85-120 yards turned out relative to shots from <85 or 120+ yards then you can't really reach a stats-based conclusion at all.

The key determinant of the outcome of a shot is how long it is. A 1-foot putt is much easier than a 10-footer is much easier than a 100-footer and an 85-yard approach is easier than a 185-yard approach. Until you tabulate the distances from which you were approach the green, you can't really look inside a stat like GIR. Fifty percent of GIR from 85 yards is pretty terrible. Fifty percent of GIR from 185 is pretty awesome.

If you have enough information to compute "putting distance holed" it sounds like you're recording the distance of your final putt on each hole. Any time you 2-putt or 3-putt it would be more useful to know the distance of your initial putt on that hole. It may also be that mahonie is recording distance information and just forgot to list it.

Absolutely correct.

It could also be that Mahonie doesn't care to get this detailed in terms of conducting a metrics-based analysis on his golf game.  BY FAR the majority of golfers do not.  But since he brought up stats and, to some degree, analysis - I thought I'd weigh in.  I've found that in this forum, you can't preach analytics or you'll become an outcast in a hurry.
How else do you measure improvement, though? It needs to have a quantitative metric so you can look back and see which areas improved and by how much.

Otherwise we're all just going by feelings, which are revisionist and affected by mood.

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#1414 mahonie

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 03:08 PM

View PostBubbtubbs, on 22 March 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

View Postbervin, on 22 March 2018 - 01:16 PM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 22 March 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

View Postbervin, on 22 March 2018 - 09:14 AM, said:

View Postmahonie, on 21 March 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

I’ve got most rounds from the last 10 years logged in the back of my Filofax (remember them?). Basic Fairways hit, GIR, Putting distance holed, number of putts, scrambling, 1-putts and 3-putts, birdies, pars, bogeys, doubles, other. Over time I noticed that my fairways hit was pretty constant, but everything else was fairly inconsistent. I could hit 14 GIR but take 38 putts and shoot 85 or hit 8 GIR, take 28 putts and shoot 80. I could also hit 8 GIR and take 38 putts and shoot 94. Putting and chipping is easiest for me to practice so I focussed on that. I got my scrambling percentage up from 30% to nearer 50% and got my average number of putts down to 30 from 34. I can still shoot 94 but those rounds are a lot rarer now. I can also break 80 more regularly now and shoot low 70s when everything clicks (not that often). From my stats, I know my next area for improvement is 85-120 yards in and that’s where I’m currently focussing my attention. Thing I have noticed is that it takes ages for any improvement to show up in my stats...it’s very gradual increments.

Speculating here, but perhaps the reason it takes so long to see movement in your stats is because of the nature of the "stat" itself.  GIR, for example, is incredibly vague and has a number of variables that impact it.  Just marking Yes/No in a GIR column doesn't tell you what you actually need to know to determine where improvement needs to be made.  Let's take your 85-120 yard comment as an example.  How do you know you need improvement from that range?  Is it just speculative, or what you think needs improving because maybe you don't have enough 10 footers for birdie?  That would be a bit unrealistic.  If you were to keep information about what yardages, lies, course conditions, etc. these GIRs are hit or missed from, and what distance from the hole your GIRs are, or where you missed when you don't get one, it would give you a much more granular look into the details.  The devil is in the details and that is where you can identify strengths and weaknesses.  I don't think most golfers need to go into this kind of detail to play a game they just want to enjoy, but if you are an analytical proponent, then just thought I'd chime in for your consideration.  The reality is you might be tour average from 85-120 and just have unrealistic expectations when you actually need to improve on ballstriking from 150 +.  Again, just a made up example, but food for thought.

I'm not clear how mahonie arrived at the 85-120 yard conclusion from the stats from the stats he listed (Fairways hit, GIR, Putting distance holed, number of putts, scrambling, 1-putts and 3-putts, birdies, pars, bogeys, doubles, other). Those are all either scoring or "counting" stats with nary a distance to be found except for "putting distance holed".

To amplify on bervin's point, if you want to analyze your game instead of simply counting things up and watching them change (or not) over time then you start and end with distances. If you can't look back through the stats and see how shots from 85-120 yards turned out relative to shots from <85 or 120+ yards then you can't really reach a stats-based conclusion at all.

The key determinant of the outcome of a shot is how long it is. A 1-foot putt is much easier than a 10-footer is much easier than a 100-footer and an 85-yard approach is easier than a 185-yard approach. Until you tabulate the distances from which you were approach the green, you can't really look inside a stat like GIR. Fifty percent of GIR from 85 yards is pretty terrible. Fifty percent of GIR from 185 is pretty awesome.

If you have enough information to compute "putting distance holed" it sounds like you're recording the distance of your final putt on each hole. Any time you 2-putt or 3-putt it would be more useful to know the distance of your initial putt on that hole. It may also be that mahonie is recording distance information and just forgot to list it.

Absolutely correct.

It could also be that Mahonie doesn't care to get this detailed in terms of conducting a metrics-based analysis on his golf game.  BY FAR the majority of golfers do not.  But since he brought up stats and, to some degree, analysis - I thought I'd weigh in.  I've found that in this forum, you can't preach analytics or you'll become an outcast in a hurry.
How else do you measure improvement, though? It needs to have a quantitative metric so you can look back and see which areas improved and by how much.

Otherwise we're all just going by feelings, which are revisionist and affected by mood.

I list every club played for every shot and the vast majority of my rounds are at my home course where I know the exact yardages (although I don’t record them) so from that I can determine that the weakest clubs in my bag are 9-iron to LW. It’s not surprising to me really as for years as a kid the most lofted club in my bag was 8-iron. Even now, 8-iron is the most used club in my bag excepting putter. What it did do was cause me to develop some poor habits with pitching in that I tried to ‘scoop’ pitch shots in order to add loft. My pitching technique has improved over the years, but it is nowhere near as good as my game from 130-200 yards. As most approaches at my home course are from 85 to 120 yards it is relatively easy to track progress.


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#1415 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 05:41 PM

View Postmahonie, on 25 March 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

I list every club played for every shot and the vast majority of my rounds are at my home course where I know the exact yardages (although I don’t record them) so from that I can determine that the weakest clubs in my bag are 9-iron to LW. It’s not surprising to me really as for years as a kid the most lofted club in my bag was 8-iron. Even now, 8-iron is the most used club in my bag excepting putter. What it did do was cause me to develop some poor habits with pitching in that I tried to ‘scoop’ pitch shots in order to add loft. My pitching technique has improved over the years, but it is nowhere near as good as my game from 130-200 yards. As most approaches at my home course are from 85 to 120 yards it is relatively easy to track progress.

This only makes sense if you assume you are pulling the correct club at each yardage.

You will never, under this system, hit a half swing 9 iron from 110. Your records would just say 9 iron. But maybe that’s a great shot for you.

Obviously I’m not trying to get on you - you do you - but this system of yours doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for identifying what to improve. It’s a loop. You always hit X from Y, so you only write down Y. Well, if X should have been Z you have no way to know. You need the yardage or your spinning your wheels.

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#1416 Neige

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 07:38 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 25 March 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

View Postmahonie, on 25 March 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

I list every club played for every shot and the vast majority of my rounds are at my home course where I know the exact yardages (although I don’t record them) so from that I can determine that the weakest clubs in my bag are 9-iron to LW. It’s not surprising to me really as for years as a kid the most lofted club in my bag was 8-iron. Even now, 8-iron is the most used club in my bag excepting putter. What it did do was cause me to develop some poor habits with pitching in that I tried to ‘scoop’ pitch shots in order to add loft. My pitching technique has improved over the years, but it is nowhere near as good as my game from 130-200 yards. As most approaches at my home course are from 85 to 120 yards it is relatively easy to track progress.

This only makes sense if you assume you are pulling the correct club at each yardage.

You will never, under this system, hit a half swing 9 iron from 110. Your records would just say 9 iron. But maybe that’s a great shot for you.

Obviously I’m not trying to get on you - you do you - but this system of yours doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for identifying what to improve. It’s a loop. You always hit X from Y, so you only write down Y. Well, if X should have been Z you have no way to know. You need the yardage or your spinning your wheels.

In some data I posted at http://www.golfwrx.c...-high-handicap/, my 8I dispersion per distance in two sets of clubs is better than pw and 9I. I was surprised to find that. The trend then reverses to "normal" after 8I. The absolute dispersion though is higher with 8I. For the 3W vs Driver, the driver dispersion is both noticeably higher than that of 3W per distance, and the absolute values make a driver very punishing. The former i think is the same for everyone to some degree, while the latter depends on one's skills and fairway width.
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#1417 mahonie

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 02:30 AM

View PostNeige, on 25 March 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 25 March 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

View Postmahonie, on 25 March 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

I list every club played for every shot and the vast majority of my rounds are at my home course where I know the exact yardages (although I don’t record them) so from that I can determine that the weakest clubs in my bag are 9-iron to LW. It’s not surprising to me really as for years as a kid the most lofted club in my bag was 8-iron. Even now, 8-iron is the most used club in my bag excepting putter. What it did do was cause me to develop some poor habits with pitching in that I tried to ‘scoop’ pitch shots in order to add loft. My pitching technique has improved over the years, but it is nowhere near as good as my game from 130-200 yards. As most approaches at my home course are from 85 to 120 yards it is relatively easy to track progress.

This only makes sense if you assume you are pulling the correct club at each yardage.

You will never, under this system, hit a half swing 9 iron from 110. Your records would just say 9 iron. But maybe that’s a great shot for you.

Obviously I’m not trying to get on you - you do you - but this system of yours doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for identifying what to improve. It’s a loop. You always hit X from Y, so you only write down Y. Well, if X should have been Z you have no way to know. You need the yardage or your spinning your wheels.

In some data I posted at http://www.golfwrx.c...-high-handicap/, my 8I dispersion per distance in two sets of clubs is better than pw and 9I. I was surprised to find that. The trend then reverses to "normal" after 8I. The absolute dispersion though is higher with 8I. For the 3W vs Driver, the driver dispersion is both noticeably higher than that of 3W per distance, and the absolute values make a driver very punishing. The former i think is the same for everyone to some degree, while the latter depends on one's skills and fairway width.

I realise that my way of doing it does not provide absolute data. Having said that I also realise that there are so many variables for each shot outside of which club I pick, what swing I put on it and what yardage I have. Course conditions, wind direction, wind strength, temperature all impact. However, when I’m inputting my round data, I also analyse where I have lost shots and make a mental note of what I need to do to improve that particular situation. So when I identify that I’ve only hit 2/10 greens when hitting approaches from 85-120 yards I know that’s where I need to focus. Especially when I’ve hit 6/8 from 120+ yards. As a feel player, I suppose I get a ‘feel’ for where my game is weak. As I posted before, working on my chipping and putting really has lowered my scoring. I still make sure my long game is functional, the next stage for me is those shorter approach shots.
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#1418 matchavez

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 06:27 AM

View PostNeige, on 25 March 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 25 March 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

View Postmahonie, on 25 March 2018 - 03:08 PM, said:

I list every club played for every shot and the vast majority of my rounds are at my home course where I know the exact yardages (although I donít record them) so from that I can determine that the weakest clubs in my bag are 9-iron to LW. Itís not surprising to me really as for years as a kid the most lofted club in my bag was 8-iron. Even now, 8-iron is the most used club in my bag excepting putter. What it did do was cause me to develop some poor habits with pitching in that I tried to Ďscoopí pitch shots in order to add loft. My pitching technique has improved over the years, but it is nowhere near as good as my game from 130-200 yards. As most approaches at my home course are from 85 to 120 yards it is relatively easy to track progress.

This only makes sense if you assume you are pulling the correct club at each yardage.

You will never, under this system, hit a half swing 9 iron from 110. Your records would just say 9 iron. But maybe thatís a great shot for you.

Obviously Iím not trying to get on you - you do you - but this system of yours doesnít make a whole lot of sense for identifying what to improve. Itís a loop. You always hit X from Y, so you only write down Y. Well, if X should have been Z you have no way to know. You need the yardage or your spinning your wheels.

In some data I posted at http://www.golfwrx.c...-high-handicap/, my 8I dispersion per distance in two sets of clubs is better than pw and 9I. I was surprised to find that. The trend then reverses to "normal" after 8I. The absolute dispersion though is higher with 8I. For the 3W vs Driver, the driver dispersion is both noticeably higher than that of 3W per distance, and the absolute values make a driver very punishing. The former i think is the same for everyone to some degree, while the latter depends on one's skills and fairway width.


Mate, get some SLIs built identically to that 8i!

8

#1419 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 02:33 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 21 March 2018 - 10:57 AM, said:

View PostBye, on 21 March 2018 - 10:22 AM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 21 March 2018 - 09:30 AM, said:

View PostNorth Butte, on 21 March 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

View PostBye, on 21 March 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

I keep looking at these aps that track shot data, but I know I will just obsess about it.
I use Broadie's app called "Golfmetrics" and I can only do it periodically for maybe 10-15 rounds every few months. Otherwise I do indeed "obsess about it" to the detriment of my enjoyment and possibly my scores. So I just "check in" for six weeks once in a while to see if my stats have changed, which they usually have not.
I actually dont really *gasp* track numerical stats. I bought a little book, its leather, I'm not sure of the name but i've seen them at cash registers at alot of golf stores. It has a flap on the left for a yardage book and on the right it has a scorecard that is set up well for taking lots of notes. Its the perfect size to stick up just slightly in the back left pocket (glove in back right). It also has a small little folder behind the yadage book for notes about the course you're playing. Its a neat package. I generally write down whatever I'm thinking while I'm playing and any other information i think should go in there. 1. its harder to do something stupid if you have to write it down first. 2. its easy to see really stupid mistakes if you read back through outside of the heat of the round (being too aggressive, not aggressive enough, etc..). 3. i only really do it in rounds i care about i.e. ones where i keep score. most rounds i'm just having fun, but when i put on the game face i write it all down. 3. i'm not very different in terms of accuracy with driver and 3 wood, my notes have shown this to be true over time. i don't have it down to numbers, but i do know when i go to 3 wood to find the fairway or driver doesn't matter much *for me*. 4. i get way too much into the "let's just protect this score with pars" mode way too fast in events - that's the devil of golf, i know i do it, and i still can't stop! lol anyway, that's what i do. i don't quantify it. I just write it down and look at it later when i'm not in the round and try to find patterns over several rounds.
I did gasp! Lots of interesting points there. It is easy for a memory to be lost of skewed in the heat of the moment. Writing stuff down sounds like it something that is worth trying. Par protection mode is the default style of most players when they have good score going. Or even at the start of an important round. It is hard to break because those horrible thoughts just come from nowhere. I know that playing too conservatively (especially from the tee) over the years has cost me a lot. I grew up playing on a course where a bad shot would be a lost ball and a big number. Learning how, when and where to miss a shot IMO is huge in this game. Probably like others this shots gained stuff intrigues me, but I am not 100% convinced that it will help my game.
It also helps on courses you play events on a lot. For example on the notes page for #2 at TPC Louisiana I have in huge sharpie across the entire hole in the yardage book "DO NOT AIM LEFT. AIM RIGHT. AIM WAY RIGHT. AIM RIGHT." The hole has a bunker up the left side that if you carry you can cut off and get up in two, but the entire right side is wide open - to the point that its basically impossible to miss, even though you have to lay up, its the right play for me. I've tried to go left there so many times and come up short and made 7 my notes have taught me its a horrible idea to play aggressively there. We know mechanical errors - i.e. huge hooks and blocks - and we set out to fix them. This is the only way I could come up with to "fix" bad decisions. Write them down and review them later.

PSG,
You mention #2 which I remember well, my issue wasn't where to aim my drive, but where to layup! I was about 270 out and I had to decide whether to layup short of the big bunker front right of the green (35 yds wide and 90 yds to center) with a 5i or try to thread the needle left of it (18 yds wide) with a 3w and get as close as possible? Your thoughts on that?

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#1420 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 03:31 PM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 26 March 2018 - 02:33 PM, said:

PSG,
You mention #2 which I remember well, my issue wasn't where to aim my drive, but where to layup! I was about 270 out and I had to decide whether to layup short of the big bunker front right of the green (35 yds wide and 90 yds to center) with a 5i or try to thread the needle left of it (18 yds wide) with a 3w and get as close as possible? Your thoughts on that?

BT

I always play the hole the same way - a combo of the two!  I thread the needle with a 5 iron into the layup area on the left.  I usually hit it pretty low and running, there is a decent amount of space over there.  I hate that huge bunker.  If the wind is behind me and I catch it off the tee sometimes I'll hit 3 wood up the right side, knowing I can't make it and leave a 10 yard bunker shot that I'm comfortable with but usually I play it right off the tee, left lay up, wedge in.  Hitting wedge in from the left is so much easier than any other angle IMO.   You're long enough that unless you're on the Dye tees you could hit driver/wood -> 5 iron/4 iron and have 105-125 left with that nice angle.

As you know / have seen, I'm not skittish about hitting a 3 wood as hard as i can at anything but I could only bang my head into that hole so many times before I had to stop!  That thing is a beast.  I think the only way to play it well is to get it up the right then layup low and running back up the left.  Anything to the left off the tee or right into the green is usually a disaster unless I have enough wind that I can get way up in that bunker on the right.

Its a great hole.  Only #3 is out of place (that kinda dull, stupid par 3) on that front 9 its some great golf and super interesting holes!  The back is significantly weaker at TPC, IMO.

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#1421 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:07 AM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 26 March 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

View PostRi_Redneck, on 26 March 2018 - 02:33 PM, said:

PSG,
You mention #2 which I remember well, my issue wasn't where to aim my drive, but where to layup! I was about 270 out and I had to decide whether to layup short of the big bunker front right of the green (35 yds wide and 90 yds to center) with a 5i or try to thread the needle left of it (18 yds wide) with a 3w and get as close as possible? Your thoughts on that?

BT

I always play the hole the same way - a combo of the two!  I thread the needle with a 5 iron into the layup area on the left.  I usually hit it pretty low and running, there is a decent amount of space over there.  I hate that huge bunker.  If the wind is behind me and I catch it off the tee sometimes I'll hit 3 wood up the right side, knowing I can't make it and leave a 10 yard bunker shot that I'm comfortable with but usually I play it right off the tee, left lay up, wedge in.  Hitting wedge in from the left is so much easier than any other angle IMO.   You're long enough that unless you're on the Dye tees you could hit driver/wood -> 5 iron/4 iron and have 105-125 left with that nice angle.

As you know / have seen, I'm not skittish about hitting a 3 wood as hard as i can at anything but I could only bang my head into that hole so many times before I had to stop!  That thing is a beast.  I think the only way to play it well is to get it up the right then layup low and running back up the left.  Anything to the left off the tee or right into the green is usually a disaster unless I have enough wind that I can get way up in that bunker on the right.

Its a great hole.  Only #3 is out of place (that kinda dull, stupid par 3) on that front 9 its some great golf and super interesting holes!  The back is significantly weaker at TPC, IMO.
That's what I figured. IIRC, I played a 3w the first round (good drive) and iron layup the second. Tough hole though for sure.

BT
Bag 1
F7 9.5* - Aldila Copperhead 70TX @ 44.5
King LTD Blk 14.5* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 43
King LTD Blk 19* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 41.5
Mizuno MP15 4-pw - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
Mizuno MP-T5 Black 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge

Bag 2
Mizuno ST180 9.5* - Diamana Kai'Li 70 X
Mizuno GPX850 14.5* - Motore Speeder TS 7.3 S
Mizuno GPX850 20* - Motore Speeder TS 8.3
Mizuno MP25 4-pw - Recoil Proto 125 F4
Mizuno MP-T5 Satin 52, 56, & 60 TT Wedge

11

#1422 rsd1244

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 06:03 PM

I have been using a callaway mini diver and love it

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#1423 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 08:04 PM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 27 March 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 26 March 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

View PostRi_Redneck, on 26 March 2018 - 02:33 PM, said:

PSG,
You mention #2 which I remember well, my issue wasn't where to aim my drive, but where to layup! I was about 270 out and I had to decide whether to layup short of the big bunker front right of the green (35 yds wide and 90 yds to center) with a 5i or try to thread the needle left of it (18 yds wide) with a 3w and get as close as possible? Your thoughts on that?

BT

I always play the hole the same way - a combo of the two!  I thread the needle with a 5 iron into the layup area on the left.  I usually hit it pretty low and running, there is a decent amount of space over there.  I hate that huge bunker.  If the wind is behind me and I catch it off the tee sometimes I'll hit 3 wood up the right side, knowing I can't make it and leave a 10 yard bunker shot that I'm comfortable with but usually I play it right off the tee, left lay up, wedge in.  Hitting wedge in from the left is so much easier than any other angle IMO.   You're long enough that unless you're on the Dye tees you could hit driver/wood -> 5 iron/4 iron and have 105-125 left with that nice angle.

As you know / have seen, I'm not skittish about hitting a 3 wood as hard as i can at anything but I could only bang my head into that hole so many times before I had to stop!  That thing is a beast.  I think the only way to play it well is to get it up the right then layup low and running back up the left.  Anything to the left off the tee or right into the green is usually a disaster unless I have enough wind that I can get way up in that bunker on the right.

Its a great hole.  Only #3 is out of place (that kinda dull, stupid par 3) on that front 9 its some great golf and super interesting holes!  The back is significantly weaker at TPC, IMO.
That's what I figured. IIRC, I played a 3w the first round (good drive) and iron layup the second. Tough hole though for sure.

BT

Had another tough course management decision at TPC today on number 6.

IMG_1522890211.307069.jpg

Had to take an unplayable. This is a good example of why this course is so tough.

Edit:

Should have hit 3 wood. Would have been well short of the gator. Lesson learned.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 04 April 2018 - 09:20 PM.

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#1424 bladehunter

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Posted 04 April 2018 - 08:53 PM

ahem....aheemmm....no balls.....  NOoo BaLLS!......








sorry man....  had to ...   id have given him the ball too..lol
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#1425 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 05 April 2018 - 11:37 AM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 04 April 2018 - 08:04 PM, said:

View PostRi_Redneck, on 27 March 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 26 March 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

View PostRi_Redneck, on 26 March 2018 - 02:33 PM, said:

PSG,
You mention #2 which I remember well, my issue wasn't where to aim my drive, but where to layup! I was about 270 out and I had to decide whether to layup short of the big bunker front right of the green (35 yds wide and 90 yds to center) with a 5i or try to thread the needle left of it (18 yds wide) with a 3w and get as close as possible? Your thoughts on that?

BT

I always play the hole the same way - a combo of the two!  I thread the needle with a 5 iron into the layup area on the left.  I usually hit it pretty low and running, there is a decent amount of space over there.  I hate that huge bunker.  If the wind is behind me and I catch it off the tee sometimes I'll hit 3 wood up the right side, knowing I can't make it and leave a 10 yard bunker shot that I'm comfortable with but usually I play it right off the tee, left lay up, wedge in.  Hitting wedge in from the left is so much easier than any other angle IMO.   You're long enough that unless you're on the Dye tees you could hit driver/wood -> 5 iron/4 iron and have 105-125 left with that nice angle.

As you know / have seen, I'm not skittish about hitting a 3 wood as hard as i can at anything but I could only bang my head into that hole so many times before I had to stop!  That thing is a beast.  I think the only way to play it well is to get it up the right then layup low and running back up the left.  Anything to the left off the tee or right into the green is usually a disaster unless I have enough wind that I can get way up in that bunker on the right.

Its a great hole.  Only #3 is out of place (that kinda dull, stupid par 3) on that front 9 its some great golf and super interesting holes!  The back is significantly weaker at TPC, IMO.
That's what I figured. IIRC, I played a 3w the first round (good drive) and iron layup the second. Tough hole though for sure.

BT

Had another tough course management decision at TPC today on number 6.

IMG_1522890211.307069.jpg

Had to take an unplayable. This is a good example of why this course is so tough.

Edit:

Should have hit 3 wood. Would have been well short of the gator. Lesson learned.

Awww. He's just a little guy! Next time carry some chicken legs to throw out in the water and coax him away.

BT

Bag 1
F7 9.5* - Aldila Copperhead 70TX @ 44.5
King LTD Blk 14.5* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 43
King LTD Blk 19* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 41.5
Mizuno MP15 4-pw - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
Mizuno MP-T5 Black 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge

Bag 2
Mizuno ST180 9.5* - Diamana Kai'Li 70 X
Mizuno GPX850 14.5* - Motore Speeder TS 7.3 S
Mizuno GPX850 20* - Motore Speeder TS 8.3
Mizuno MP25 4-pw - Recoil Proto 125 F4
Mizuno MP-T5 Satin 52, 56, & 60 TT Wedge

15

#1426 baldandbroke

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 03:01 AM

Back to the topic at hand ...

Have given the mini-driver experiment away and gone back to a more standard Driver / 3 wood setup.

What I found was that although I hit the TP Aero Mini pretty well - I didn't gain anything significant on course. It wasn't more accurate than a 3 wood, it wasn't as long as a driver.

I found myself hitting it on holes that called for a long drive AND on holes where a 185m layup was too little. I even whacked my Ping 1-iron back in the bag to see if that was a good middle solution ... but it is way less useful than a 3-wood across the round.

Since returning to the Driver / 3 Wood the difference for me is WHEN I hit driver. I'm using the 3 wood much more than I did in the past, and saving the driver for when it potentially gives me an advantage AND a missed drive is not punished any more than a missed 3-wood would be.

The other thing I've gone back to is trying to ALWAYS fade my driver and only hit the draw with the 3-wood.

Edited by baldandbroke, 01 June 2018 - 03:02 AM.

DRIVER: TEE CB4 Tour, 9', Aldila RIP 60 Stiff @ 45"
FAIRWAY: TEE CB3 Tour, 15', Fujikura Motore Tour 80 Stiff @ 43"
HYBRID: TEE CB3 Tour, 22', Fujikura Motore 80 Stiff @ 42"
IRONS: Mizuno MP-H4 - 5-PW, DGS300
WEDGES: Cleveland RTX-3 CB Wedges, 52, 58
PUTTER: Cleveland Classic Collection Belly 400g @ 38", Flat Cat Standard
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BALL: SEED SD-01

16

#1427 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 10:49 PM

You know, this whole thread is based on the differential between these two clubs. I would like to hear everyone's honest differential in loft along with carry and total distance between their Driver & 3W.

For me, Dr loft is 9.5 to 10.5 depending on head design. 3w loft is 13 to 14.5. typically I carry a well struck drive in the 245-250 range  with totals being around 265-270. 3w carrys 220-225 with total being around 245-250. Is this comparable to what others here get?

BT
Bag 1
F7 9.5* - Aldila Copperhead 70TX @ 44.5
King LTD Blk 14.5* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 43
King LTD Blk 19* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 41.5
Mizuno MP15 4-pw - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
Mizuno MP-T5 Black 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge

Bag 2
Mizuno ST180 9.5* - Diamana Kai'Li 70 X
Mizuno GPX850 14.5* - Motore Speeder TS 7.3 S
Mizuno GPX850 20* - Motore Speeder TS 8.3
Mizuno MP25 4-pw - Recoil Proto 125 F4
Mizuno MP-T5 Satin 52, 56, & 60 TT Wedge

17

#1428 GMN_02

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 10:57 PM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 01 June 2018 - 10:49 PM, said:

You know, this whole thread is based on the differential between these two clubs. I would like to hear everyone's honest differential in loft along with carry and total distance between their Driver & 3W.

For me, Dr loft is 9.5 to 10.5 depending on head design. 3w loft is 13 to 14.5. typically I carry a well struck drive in the 245-250 range  with totals being around 265-270. 3w carrys 220-225 with total being around 245-250. Is this comparable to what others here get?

BT

I play my driver at 10.5 and my 3W at 15.  I carry my driver between 280-285, total distance totally depends on conditions.  I carry my 3W between 255-260, this tends to be the about my total distance too.  My choice on which of the two clubs to use off of the tee highly depends on the hole.  This is because I hit my driver with a more penetrating/mid-flight trajectory leading to more roll and I hit my 3W higher and it lands softer/less roll out.  My choice between the two always comes down to what is in front of me on the course and how I am swinging that day.


Edit: Added totals to above post.

Edited by GMN_02, 01 June 2018 - 11:06 PM.


18

#1429 Dan Drake

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 10:50 AM

My driver has a stated loft of 9.5° and is 45" long.  My 2w has a stated loft of 12° and is 43" long.  Reasonably solid shots with the driver carry 265y and reasonably solid shots with the 2w carry 245y.  There is no roll to speak of where I play.
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19

#1430 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 12:56 PM

Interesting. I find my driver and 3w have very similar trajectories. I also play my driver at 44.5" and my 3w at 43.5, so CHS only varies about 2mph. Rollout is usually a bit more for the driver, but not that much. So the differential is at most, 2 clubs. IMHO, this will only make a difference on the longest par 4s. Hence my original opinion in this thread. I was just curious how much difference others have.

BT

Edited by Ri_Redneck, 02 June 2018 - 12:59 PM.

Bag 1
F7 9.5* - Aldila Copperhead 70TX @ 44.5
King LTD Blk 14.5* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 43
King LTD Blk 19* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 41.5
Mizuno MP15 4-pw - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
Mizuno MP-T5 Black 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge

Bag 2
Mizuno ST180 9.5* - Diamana Kai'Li 70 X
Mizuno GPX850 14.5* - Motore Speeder TS 7.3 S
Mizuno GPX850 20* - Motore Speeder TS 8.3
Mizuno MP25 4-pw - Recoil Proto 125 F4
Mizuno MP-T5 Satin 52, 56, & 60 TT Wedge

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#1431 baldandbroke

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 07:18 PM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 02 June 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

Interesting. I find my driver and 3w have very similar trajectories. I also play my driver at 44.5" and my 3w at 43.5, so CHS only varies about 2mph. Rollout is usually a bit more for the driver, but not that much. So the differential is at most, 2 clubs. IMHO, this will only make a difference on the longest par 4s. Hence my original opinion in this thread. I was just curious how much difference others have.

BT
I definitely hit modern drivers much higher than I hit my 3-wood, and I think that's something that turns me off them. Even if the distance is great I don't like that high floating shot, I just don't feel like I have any control of it. I understand launch and spin numbers, but I'm much more of a feel golfer ... if it doesn't look and feel right I'll never buy in.

I hit my 3 wood 225m (250yds) , Driver 260m (290yds).

I was settling back into my TEE CB3 Tour 9 degree driver, until on the 13th on Saturday the head snapped off!! At least the ball finished in the fairway, a fair tribute to this old warrior of a club :-( I have since lashed out on eBay and bought a much updated driver ... the CB4 Tour driver with the RIP stiff 60 shaft ($110 delivered). Will see how this new fangled thing performs in coming weeks ... looks like a low spin - low launch fade machine, let's hope so!

Posted Image
DRIVER: TEE CB4 Tour, 9', Aldila RIP 60 Stiff @ 45"
FAIRWAY: TEE CB3 Tour, 15', Fujikura Motore Tour 80 Stiff @ 43"
HYBRID: TEE CB3 Tour, 22', Fujikura Motore 80 Stiff @ 42"
IRONS: Mizuno MP-H4 - 5-PW, DGS300
WEDGES: Cleveland RTX-3 CB Wedges, 52, 58
PUTTER: Cleveland Classic Collection Belly 400g @ 38", Flat Cat Standard
BAG: Cobra Ultralight 18, Peacoat / Red
BALL: SEED SD-01

21

#1432 Frisco Kid

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 11:08 AM

Why do people cut their shafts down on a driver?

For ME, I’d rather choke down on a driver for consistency sake.  It’s a good option to be able to grip normally and eek out a few extra yards if needed.
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#1433 bcsquare

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 11:40 AM

View PostGMN_02, on 01 June 2018 - 10:57 PM, said:

View PostRi_Redneck, on 01 June 2018 - 10:49 PM, said:

You know, this whole thread is based on the differential between these two clubs. I would like to hear everyone's honest differential in loft along with carry and total distance between their Driver & 3W.

For me, Dr loft is 9.5 to 10.5 depending on head design. 3w loft is 13 to 14.5. typically I carry a well struck drive in the 245-250 range  with totals being around 265-270. 3w carrys 220-225 with total being around 245-250. Is this comparable to what others here get?

BT

I play my driver at 10.5 and my 3W at 15.  I carry my driver between 280-285, total distance totally depends on conditions.  I carry my 3W between 255-260, this tends to be the about my total distance too.  My choice on which of the two clubs to use off of the tee highly depends on the hole.  This is because I hit my driver with a more penetrating/mid-flight trajectory leading to more roll and I hit my 3W higher and it lands softer/less roll out.  My choice between the two always comes down to what is in front of me on the course and how I am swinging that day.


Edit: Added totals to above post.

I have the same set up but have about the same numbers as ri_redneck though.

However my driver is a high floating flight and the 3w is more of mid flight; I can still hit a high rising shot off the tee.  My choice depend on the hole also and if I have the room to hit a driver.  The driver is the least accurate club for me so I'll fall back to the 3w or 3i if the hole is narrow or if I need to navigate around something.
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Cobra F9 18.5*, Fujikura Atmos Blue 7S
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23

#1434 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 09:15 PM

View PostFrisco Kid, on 04 June 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

Why do people cut their shafts down on a driver?

For ME, I’d rather choke down on a driver for consistency sake.  It’s a good option to be able to grip normally and eek out a few extra yards if needed.
For me, the grip is too small when choking down. I build my grips up to just shy of midsize and choking down doesn't feel right to me. I've used drivers up to 48" and the small distance gain is not worth loss in control. I do okay at around 45.5-46, but only get a couple mph more and really no distance increase due to poorer contact.

BT
Bag 1
F7 9.5* - Aldila Copperhead 70TX @ 44.5
King LTD Blk 14.5* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 43
King LTD Blk 19* - Aldila RIP Beta 80 S @ 41.5
Mizuno MP15 4-pw - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
Mizuno MP-T5 Black 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge

Bag 2
Mizuno ST180 9.5* - Diamana Kai'Li 70 X
Mizuno GPX850 14.5* - Motore Speeder TS 7.3 S
Mizuno GPX850 20* - Motore Speeder TS 8.3
Mizuno MP25 4-pw - Recoil Proto 125 F4
Mizuno MP-T5 Satin 52, 56, & 60 TT Wedge

24

#1435 Ereim

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 09:24 PM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 05 June 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

View PostFrisco Kid, on 04 June 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

Why do people cut their shafts down on a driver?

For ME, Iíd rather choke down on a driver for consistency sake.  Itís a good option to be able to grip normally and eek out a few extra yards if needed.
For me, the grip is too small when choking down. I build my grips up to just shy of midsize and choking down doesn't feel right to me. I've used drivers up to 48" and the small distance gain is not worth loss in control. I do okay at around 45.5-46, but only get a couple mph more and really no distance increase due to poorer contact.

BT

I've always felt like I can generate more speed with my hands on the end of the club vs choking down. When I choke down I feel like the butt impedes my swing from the top down.

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#1436 BillyBawShanks

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 06:00 PM

Been hitting 3 wood off tee lately. Almost goes as far as driver and less damaging on misses.
3 wood I’m always in the hole, but driver can put me O.B!

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#1437 Chuck905

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 08:50 PM

I actually now go to the U45 17* when I need less than driver. Had a Recoil 110 +1/2Ē shaft put in and can turn it over just as far to the 3 wood.

Learned to hit a cut driver and now the strong 3 wood is redundant; looking at a GW now.

View PostBillyBawShanks, on 19 December 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

Been hitting 3 wood off tee lately. Almost goes as far as driver and less damaging on misses.
3 wood Iím always in the hole, but driver can put me O.B!

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#1438 KiwiNick

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:45 AM

I kind of look at my 3 wood (13.5* Fly Z +) as ‘driver #2. The 9* driver is for open fairways with bailout or minimal trouble. The 3 wood is for tighter fairways or for keeping it low into the wind. Hitting a slight draw keeps the ball low and actually goes further than the driver in that situation, something very common in Wellington, NZ.
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#1439 KiwiNick

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:50 AM

View PostRi_Redneck, on 01 June 2018 - 10:49 PM, said:

You know, this whole thread is based on the differential between these two clubs. I would like to hear everyone's honest differential in loft along with carry and total distance between their Driver & 3W.

For me, Dr loft is 9.5 to 10.5 depending on head design. 3w loft is 13 to 14.5. typically I carry a well struck drive in the 245-250 range  with totals being around 265-270. 3w carrys 220-225 with total being around 245-250. Is this comparable to what others here get?

BT

Yeah that’s almost bang on what I get. Cobra F7 9* and Fly Z+ 13.5*. The Z has been such a great ‘go to’ club for a fairway find under pressure. However, the loss of 20-30 yards often means an extra club into the green and that can sometimes negate the advantage.
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#1440 Mahamilto

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 07:32 AM

If 3w is in play vs driver taking penalty... then 3 wood for sure.

If 3w in fairway, vs driver in rough... hit driver.

Like someone else said, this has been extensively measured and the yardage matters more than fairway lie.

This seems over simplified, but holds true on most courses, especially the ones that amateurs play regularly.

Exceptions would be

1) if hitting driver causes you a penalty... then clearly the added distance does you no good

2) if the course or hole puts an errant, but findable, tee shot without a second shot... again, accuracy over distance here.

This would apply to times where there is fescue, trees, or tons of bunkers lining the fairway.

The simple reality is that most people who can’t control their driver at all, probably can’t hit the fairway with 3w at the drop of a hat.

The bad driver shot hurts you less than the possible bad 3 wood shot.

I can’t tell you how many times I decided to play it “safe” and hit 3 wood or iron, only to end up without a ideal look at the flag anyway, and I’m 20 yards further away to boot.

And to be honest, I’m a 10HCP and long game is one of the better parts of my game.

So if it’s fairway 3w vs driver in rough...
Choice is clear.

Not advocating stupid play, but pay attention to your own game, and realize that if both clubs give you a look at the flag, the distance matters most in 95% of situations.

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