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3W vs Driver off the tee


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#1201 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:43 PM

View PostBye, on 13 March 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

View PostBye, on 13 March 2018 - 01:11 PM, said:

I think the good iron players have to think about sacrificing a bit of distance with driver. They are two different swings. Getting optimised is not always the best idea.

I keep wondering if it’s worth swapping driver for a strong 3 wood that can be used from the deck.

I’ve never seen anyone that is great with driver, 3 wood and irons. Good with one and ok with the other 2 is as far as I would go.

Nonsense.  Absolute nonsense.

Iron:

https://www.youtube....xe4cjihVM

Driver:

https://www.youtube....v=dcLTmBuU9nQ††

Pause where'ever you want, they are virtually identical.  Same takeaway, same hand position at the top (just to the left of his head), same left hip starts downswing, same extension, same squaring of face, same shaft angle at top, etc... etc...

They are identical in almost every respect, except driver is tee'd up forward to catch it on the upswing.

The driver has a longer shaft so swing flaws are exposed more often and it is harder to compensate for.  Further, the driver hits it farther, so degrees offline equals a bigger miss.  There is one optimal way for you to move a lever around your body (note: I didn't say it was the same for everyone, just that there is one for you) and it doesn't change depending on whether its an iron or a driver.

"I'm good at irons and not good at driver" doesn't mean they are two different movements.  It means that when the shaft gets longer your mechanics break down.

Well at least I didn’t get an eye roll ��

Your argument falls down with the guy that is as good with a wedge as he is with a 3 wood. It’s the upward movement that changes things. If you don’t or can’t move your path to the right it’s going to be hard to use a driver. Yes technically there is not much difference to the eye.

There is an upward movement in every single golf swing with every club, unless you don't follow through with a wedge.  You just hit the driver on the upswing.  The ideal movement is identical.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 13 March 2018 - 02:44 PM.

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#1202 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:44 PM

View Postbaldandbroke, on 13 March 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

View PostBye, on 13 March 2018 - 01:11 PM, said:

I think the good iron players have to think about sacrificing a bit of distance with driver. They are two different swings. Getting optimised is not always the best idea.

I keep wondering if it’s worth swapping driver for a strong 3 wood that can be used from the deck.

I’ve never seen anyone that is great with driver, 3 wood and irons. Good with one and ok with the other 2 is as far as I would go.

Nonsense.  Absolute nonsense.

Iron:

https://www.youtube....xe4cjihVM

Driver:

https://www.youtube....v=dcLTmBuU9nQ††

Pause where'ever you want, they are virtually identical.  Same takeaway, same hand position at the top (just to the left of his head), same left hip starts downswing, same extension, same squaring of face, same shaft angle at top, etc... etc...

They are identical in almost every respect, except driver is tee'd up forward to catch it on the upswing.

The driver has a longer shaft so swing flaws are exposed more often and it is harder to compensate for.  Further, the driver hits it farther, so degrees offline equals a bigger miss.  There is one optimal way for you to move a lever around your body (note: I didn't say it was the same for everyone, just that there is one for you) and it doesn't change depending on whether its an iron or a driver.

"I'm good at irons and not good at driver" doesn't mean they are two different movements.  It means that when the shaft gets longer your mechanics break down.
Yeah, but that's ADAM SCOTT !!! One of the best swingers of the club on the planet. His job is to play golf. He has everything in his life geared towards being better at golf.

I am a 45 year old youth worker, that plays on Saturdays and maybe 1 hour practice if I'm lucky during the week.

Also, MANY golfers at the pro level have a different swing for the driver ... even they look at Adam and go "how does he do that!?!?"

I agree that its difficult.  A ton of golfers (myself included) have swing flaws that make the driver more difficult to hit.  But that doesn't mean its a "different swing".  Rubbish.  You just can't do it.

The idea that no amateur golfer can be good at irons and driver at the same time is kinda silly.

EDIT
Put a ball really high on the tee by your left foot.  Put a ball in the middle of your stance.  Hover your driver head and then try to hit the ball in the middle like it was an iron (but go over it), and just go through the other one (the one on the tee) to the follow-through.  Its a great way to feel it.  I'm not ben hogan or anything, but trying to develop two swings is, IMO, a really inefficient way to learn.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 13 March 2018 - 02:49 PM.

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#1203 North Butte

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:47 PM

But how much more exposing of swing flaws can a 45" 10-degree driver be compared to the 43-1/2" 13 or 14-degree deep 3-woods that people seem to choose as their driver alternative? It's less than two inches and a couple degrees of loft, right? But a huge 460cc head with the driver.

Just seems if you can't keep the driver on the planet, hitting a slightly more lofted, two inch shorter small-headed club really well indicates a problem that isn't just a swing flaw being exposed. Otherwise they could just choke down a couple inches of their driver and kill it.
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#1204 Derek666

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:51 PM

I swing different with my driver with an upward AOA but with my 4 wood, Hybrid and Irons my AOA is all downward and i take divots with them all and i never use tees except for driver.

To say you can't be a good Iron player and hit a driver well is incorrect imo, it just takes practice - I used to play and practice every day when i was at college (wee while ago :) ) and it's amazing the consistency you get when practicing so much.

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#1205 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:07 PM

View PostNorth Butte, on 13 March 2018 - 02:47 PM, said:

But how much more exposing of swing flaws can a 45" 10-degree driver be compared to the 43-1/2" 13 or 14-degree deep 3-woods that people seem to choose as their driver alternative? It's less than two inches and a couple degrees of loft, right? But a huge 460cc head with the driver.

Just seems if you can't keep the driver on the planet, hitting a slightly more lofted, two inch shorter small-headed club really well indicates a problem that isn't just a swing flaw being exposed. Otherwise they could just choke down a couple inches of their driver and kill it.

The driver tee height creates the opportunity for some insane misses.  The three wood is on the ground, which means the angle of attack can't be too crazy without completely whiffing the ball.

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#1206 North Butte

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:10 PM

Why not just swing the driver without uppercutting it then?
Everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the funeral expenses.

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#1207 Derek666

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:16 PM

I think Sergio Garcia for example hits down on the driver (Or he used to last time i saw his swing) and he's not short and has an amazing Iron game.

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#1208 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:17 PM

I feel like I hit all my clubs more or less equally well.  I try and choose wisely whether to hit 5i, 3h, 3w, or driver off the tee.  It all depends on trouble, fairway width, and length of hole.  Where I do see a difference in difficulty is between teed shots and those hit off the turf.  Teed shots have a greater margin for error striking the ball regardless of club.
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#1209 Bye

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:20 PM

View PostDerek666, on 13 March 2018 - 03:16 PM, said:

I think Sergio Garcia for example hits down on the driver (Or he used to last time i saw his swing) and he's not short and has an amazing Iron game.

He is swinging it a 120+. Doesn’t really matter if it’s a decending blow at that speed.
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#1210 Derek666

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:27 PM

Bye: Is that not the average SS on GolfWRX? :)


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#1211 Bye

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:28 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

View PostBye, on 13 March 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

View PostBye, on 13 March 2018 - 01:11 PM, said:

I think the good iron players have to think about sacrificing a bit of distance with driver. They are two different swings. Getting optimised is not always the best idea.

I keep wondering if it’s worth swapping driver for a strong 3 wood that can be used from the deck.

I’ve never seen anyone that is great with driver, 3 wood and irons. Good with one and ok with the other 2 is as far as I would go.

Nonsense.  Absolute nonsense.

Iron:

https://www.youtube....xe4cjihVM

Driver:

https://www.youtube....v=dcLTmBuU9nQ††

Pause where'ever you want, they are virtually identical.  Same takeaway, same hand position at the top (just to the left of his head), same left hip starts downswing, same extension, same squaring of face, same shaft angle at top, etc... etc...

They are identical in almost every respect, except driver is tee'd up forward to catch it on the upswing.

The driver has a longer shaft so swing flaws are exposed more often and it is harder to compensate for.  Further, the driver hits it farther, so degrees offline equals a bigger miss.  There is one optimal way for you to move a lever around your body (note: I didn't say it was the same for everyone, just that there is one for you) and it doesn't change depending on whether its an iron or a driver.

"I'm good at irons and not good at driver" doesn't mean they are two different movements.  It means that when the shaft gets longer your mechanics break down.

Well at least I didn’t get an eye roll ��

Your argument falls down with the guy that is as good with a wedge as he is with a 3 wood. It’s the upward movement that changes things. If you don’t or can’t move your path to the right it’s going to be hard to use a driver. Yes technically there is not much difference to the eye.

There is an upward movement in every single golf swing with every club, unless you don't follow through with a wedge.  You just hit the driver on the upswing.  The ideal movement is identical.

Unless you change your set up like Hogan did that will result in a player hitting driver straight and hooking their irons or hitting their irons straight and slicing driver. The path has to move to the right with an upward hit.
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#1212 Derek666

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:32 PM

Guy i follow James on Youtube had a Max Driver swing speed today of 144mph (204 Ball Speed 5192 spin) lol and average was 138mph(196 Ball Speed 3417 spin) and his max carry was 357yards and average 337yards :)

He'd outdrive me with a 7 iron.

Edited by Derek666, 13 March 2018 - 03:35 PM.


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#1213 Bye

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:39 PM

View PostDerek666, on 13 March 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

Bye: Is that not the average SS on GolfWRX? :)

Lol, so they say!
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#1214 baldandbroke

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:25 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

I agree that its difficult.  A ton of golfers (myself included) have swing flaws that make the driver more difficult to hit.  But that doesn't mean its a "different swing".  Rubbish.  You just can't do it.

The idea that no amateur golfer can be good at irons and driver at the same time is kinda silly.

EDIT
Put a ball really high on the tee by your left foot.  Put a ball in the middle of your stance.  Hover your driver head and then try to hit the ball in the middle like it was an iron (but go over it), and just go through the other one (the one on the tee) to the follow-through.  Its a great way to feel it.  I'm not ben hogan or anything, but trying to develop two swings is, IMO, a really inefficient way to learn.

Rubbish? Interesting way to have a conversation.

Unless you are playing a single length set ... every one of you swings is different with every club. They all have different planes and angles of attack.

The driver swing is not the same swing as your irons, and nor should it be.

What we are talking about here is a mix of swing mechanics and psychology.

Some swings are prone to problems with certain clubs ... do you agree with that? So when you have a swing that is less than consistent with the longest / lowest loft full swing club in the bag - there will obviously need to be either:

A) a change in equipment to get a driver that minimises the bad shots

B) a change in swing mechanics

C) a change in mindset

Most of us older fellas have played with what we have for long enough to find a way to play with the swing that brought us ... and we aren't making wholesale mechanic changes at this stage of the game. It's not our job, it's a sport we play for fun. We know we aren't the best with the driver, and we have found ways around it ... but that doesn't mean we have stopped looking for better alternatives. Mentally we need to have confidence, and past experience has taught us not to trust the driver ... that is not an easy thing to fix.

The simplest and most realistic solution for me, is option (A). I'm just are trying to get rid of the horrific drives and find something that allows me to play the game. I'm not a bad golfer ... I know how to hit the ball BUT I am not going to rebuild my swing / see a sports psychologist to try and fix the 3 or 4 dead drives a round when I can just give up a little distance and play a shorter easier to hit "driver".

Throwing up examples like Adam Scott and Sergio are hilarious. Even if you are the best amateur player in the country - you are so far behind those guys it isn't funny. Comparing our attempts at golf to ANY pro is laughable.

<EDIT> Thanks for the step by step swing tips, I needed a laugh to start the day. Cheers.

Edited by baldandbroke, 13 March 2018 - 04:26 PM.

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#1215 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:58 PM

View Postbaldandbroke, on 13 March 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

I agree that its difficult.  A ton of golfers (myself included) have swing flaws that make the driver more difficult to hit.  But that doesn't mean its a "different swing".  Rubbish.  You just can't do it.

The idea that no amateur golfer can be good at irons and driver at the same time is kinda silly.

EDIT
Put a ball really high on the tee by your left foot.  Put a ball in the middle of your stance.  Hover your driver head and then try to hit the ball in the middle like it was an iron (but go over it), and just go through the other one (the one on the tee) to the follow-through.  Its a great way to feel it.  I'm not ben hogan or anything, but trying to develop two swings is, IMO, a really inefficient way to learn.

Rubbish? Interesting way to have a conversation.

Unless you are playing a single length set ... every one of you swings is different with every club. They all have different planes and angles of attack.

The driver swing is not the same swing as your irons, and nor should it be.

What we are talking about here is a mix of swing mechanics and psychology.

Some swings are prone to problems with certain clubs ... do you agree with that? So when you have a swing that is less than consistent with the longest / lowest loft full swing club in the bag - there will obviously need to be either:

A) a change in equipment to get a driver that minimises the bad shots

B) a change in swing mechanics

C) a change in mindset

Most of us older fellas have played with what we have for long enough to find a way to play with the swing that brought us ... and we aren't making wholesale mechanic changes at this stage of the game. It's not our job, it's a sport we play for fun. We know we aren't the best with the driver, and we have found ways around it ... but that doesn't mean we have stopped looking for better alternatives. Mentally we need to have confidence, and past experience has taught us not to trust the driver ... that is not an easy thing to fix.

The simplest and most realistic solution for me, is option (A). I'm just are trying to get rid of the horrific drives and find something that allows me to play the game. I'm not a bad golfer ... I know how to hit the ball BUT I am not going to rebuild my swing / see a sports psychologist to try and fix the 3 or 4 dead drives a round when I can just give up a little distance and play a shorter easier to hit "driver".

Throwing up examples like Adam Scott and Sergio are hilarious. Even if you are the best amateur player in the country - you are so far behind those guys it isn't funny. Comparing our attempts at golf to ANY pro is laughable.

<EDIT> Thanks for the step by step swing tips, I needed a laugh to start the day. Cheers.

People being successful using two different swings for both and\or individual golfers going after different swings for both has nothing to do with whether or not the swing can be the same. It can be. It’s very difficult, but absolutely possible.  As long as you don’t change your body dimensions and you are allowed to tee it up in different places (so the AoA changes with the same swing depending where it’s teed) you absolutely can.

I didn’t say it was easy. I said it was possible and suggested a drill I found helpful to get it on the upswing, which apparently you don’t think much of. Hopefully you find success with your approach.

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#1216 matchavez

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 05:53 PM

View Postamateur_v1x, on 13 March 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

I finally gave up my driver for a strong lofted 3 wood. top of bag setup is now 3wd, 5wd, 3hybrid... i am out there off the tee 250-260 next to my buddies hitting driver, but i have 1000x more confidence with it. I hit down on the ball, take a small divot with my fairway woods, and cannot hit any driver consistently. this move has been a major positive change for me. for me it was a no brainer, i wish i would have made the move years ago. play YOUR game.

It would be very interesting if you had the same length and weight in your driver as you do in your 3wood now... basically 2" shorter but correct swing weight. I'm guessing you'd monster that driver.

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#1217 Chuck905

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 06:07 PM

Lol this is good. This where the guy claims the swing mechanics are the same for each club which is trivial.

Thereís just so many facets to the game to put together and everybody has different goals; that we should manage our expectations.

This year, Im rolling back the rounds of golf for business travel but will practice as much as I can. Iím not looking for boring consistency, at this point, go for broke and that means the 3 woood and driver must be active.

I understand guys talking about accuracy, but, define it?

I would take two clubs closer to the hole and off line than two clubs further back online  hitting for GIR.

Edited by Chuck905, 13 March 2018 - 06:07 PM.

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#1218 mahonie

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 06:26 PM

View PostChuck905, on 13 March 2018 - 06:07 PM, said:

Lol this is good. This where the guy claims the swing mechanics are the same for each club which is trivial.

There’s just so many facets to the game to put together and everybody has different goals; that we should manage our expectations.

This year, Im rolling back the rounds of golf for business travel but will practice as much as I can. I’m not looking for boring consistency, at this point, go for broke and that means the 3 woood and driver must be active.

I understand guys talking about accuracy, but, define it?

I would take two clubs closer to the hole and off line than two clubs further back online  hitting for GIR.

That’s a good approach as long as your two clubs difference is greater than 60 yards.
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#1219 Justsomeguy

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 08:27 PM

Driver simultaneously the hardest and easiest club in the bag. Worth the practice.
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#1220 baldandbroke

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:06 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

People being successful using two different swings for both and\or individual golfers going after different swings for both has nothing to do with whether or not the swing can be the same. It can be. It’s very difficult, but absolutely possible.  As long as you don’t change your body dimensions and you are allowed to tee it up in different places (so the AoA changes with the same swing depending where it’s teed) you absolutely can.

I didn’t say it was easy. I said it was possible and suggested a drill I found helpful to get it on the upswing, which apparently you don’t think much of. Hopefully you find success with your approach.
I think you are confusing the discussion.

I'm betting you could name your angle of attack with the driver right? You spend a bit of time on with a swing tracker and probably know your spin rate for the driver for different spec shafts?

Some of us don't roll that way.

Your point seems to be that if we just change who we are, how we approach the game, how we swing and what clubs we choose to swing - we too can do it the way you do it.

I wonder why everyone doesn't take this approach? Why does this thread even exist?

My guess is because as much as you want to believe that EVERYONE can do it the way you think works, you'd be very wrong.

If you played a round of golf with me, and saw that I was a better putter than you ... do you think you'd have the same approach you are advocating for the driver? I doubt it. I wouldn't think that you would copy my equipment, my practice routine, my pre-shot routine, my grip, my stroke, my mental approach ... would you?

Golf is a complex game, that does not have absolute truths.

Everyone has different expectations and different reasons for playing. Everyone has different budgets for time and money.

I think it's fine to share your experience, but a bit rich to point to the best swing in the game and say to the thread: "You could do this".

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#1221 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:19 PM

View Postbaldandbroke, on 13 March 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

People being successful using two different swings for both and\or individual golfers going after different swings for both has nothing to do with whether or not the swing can be the same. It can be. It’s very difficult, but absolutely possible.  As long as you don’t change your body dimensions and you are allowed to tee it up in different places (so the AoA changes with the same swing depending where it’s teed) you absolutely can.

I didn’t say it was easy. I said it was possible and suggested a drill I found helpful to get it on the upswing, which apparently you don’t think much of. Hopefully you find success with your approach.
I think you are confusing the discussion.

I'm betting you could name your angle of attack with the driver right? You spend a bit of time on with a swing tracker and probably know your spin rate for the driver for different spec shafts?

Some of us don't roll that way.

Your point seems to be that if we just change who we are, how we approach the game, how we swing and what clubs we choose to swing - we too can do it the way you do it.

I wonder why everyone doesn't take this approach? Why does this thread even exist?

My guess is because as much as you want to believe that EVERYONE can do it the way you think works, you'd be very wrong.

If you played a round of golf with me, and saw that I was a better putter than you ... do you think you'd have the same approach you are advocating for the driver? I doubt it. I wouldn't think that you would copy my equipment, my practice routine, my pre-shot routine, my grip, my stroke, my mental approach ... would you?

Golf is a complex game, that does not have absolute truths.

Everyone has different expectations and different reasons for playing. Everyone has different budgets for time and money.

I think it's fine to share your experience, but a bit rich to point to the best swing in the game and say to the thread: "You could do this".

Maybe we are having a mis-communication somewhere.  The gentleman said that the driver and irons were "two different swings".  They're not.  That's all I said.  Thinking of them as two different swings because its hard is like thinking of steering a car at 20 mph as different than steering at 200 mph.  Steering at 200 mph is certainly harder, but its an identical motion.  Square is square, and the swings  - *in theory* - are identical.  I understand it isn't easy - I'm a 2 cap, not a PGA tour pro.  But making technical errors about how the swings work when done correctly makes it harder, not easier, to pull off.

i agree with you that people can take different approaches *in practice* and be successful.  But the basic statement that an iron swing and a driver swing are mutually exclusive and that there are no players this side of the tour with a good iron swing who can hit the driver is wrong.
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#1222 mahonie

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 01:57 AM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 10:19 PM, said:

View Postbaldandbroke, on 13 March 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

People being successful using two different swings for both and\or individual golfers going after different swings for both has nothing to do with whether or not the swing can be the same. It can be. It’s very difficult, but absolutely possible.  As long as you don’t change your body dimensions and you are allowed to tee it up in different places (so the AoA changes with the same swing depending where it’s teed) you absolutely can.

I didn’t say it was easy. I said it was possible and suggested a drill I found helpful to get it on the upswing, which apparently you don’t think much of. Hopefully you find success with your approach.
I think you are confusing the discussion.

I'm betting you could name your angle of attack with the driver right? You spend a bit of time on with a swing tracker and probably know your spin rate for the driver for different spec shafts?

Some of us don't roll that way.

Your point seems to be that if we just change who we are, how we approach the game, how we swing and what clubs we choose to swing - we too can do it the way you do it.

I wonder why everyone doesn't take this approach? Why does this thread even exist?

My guess is because as much as you want to believe that EVERYONE can do it the way you think works, you'd be very wrong.

If you played a round of golf with me, and saw that I was a better putter than you ... do you think you'd have the same approach you are advocating for the driver? I doubt it. I wouldn't think that you would copy my equipment, my practice routine, my pre-shot routine, my grip, my stroke, my mental approach ... would you?

Golf is a complex game, that does not have absolute truths.

Everyone has different expectations and different reasons for playing. Everyone has different budgets for time and money.

I think it's fine to share your experience, but a bit rich to point to the best swing in the game and say to the thread: "You could do this".

Maybe we are having a mis-communication somewhere.  The gentleman said that the driver and irons were "two different swings".  They're not.  That's all I said.  Thinking of them as two different swings because its hard is like thinking of steering a car at 20 mph as different than steering at 200 mph.  Steering at 200 mph is certainly harder, but its an identical motion.  Square is square, and the swings  - *in theory* - are identical.  I understand it isn't easy - I'm a 2 cap, not a PGA tour pro.  But making technical errors about how the swings work when done correctly makes it harder, not easier, to pull off.

i agree with you that people can take different approaches *in practice* and be successful.  But the basic statement that an iron swing and a driver swing are mutually exclusive and that there are no players this side of the tour with a good iron swing who can hit the driver is wrong.

My swing with driver was the same as my swing with irons and although it was ‘functional,’ it more often than not turned into a slice whereas my irons were a nice baby fade. Losing distance to guys 20 years older than me who had half a backswing but hit a draw with driver pushed me to have the only golf lesson that I have had. That lesson opened my eyes in that the Pro showed me how I would struggle to consistently hit long straight drives with my iron swing. In effect we rebuilt my driver swing to allow me to hit it more from the inside. It took three years to embed properly to the point where I could call on that ‘driver’ swing. Over the three years my game went into a slump as I tried to use the same moves with my irons. It only started getting back to where it was when I disconnected the driver swing from my iron swing. Now I hit typically hit a draw with driver and a fade with all other shots.
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#1223 baldandbroke

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 03:01 AM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 10:19 PM, said:

View Postbaldandbroke, on 13 March 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

People being successful using two different swings for both and\or individual golfers going after different swings for both has nothing to do with whether or not the swing can be the same. It can be. It’s very difficult, but absolutely possible.  As long as you don’t change your body dimensions and you are allowed to tee it up in different places (so the AoA changes with the same swing depending where it’s teed) you absolutely can.

I didn’t say it was easy. I said it was possible and suggested a drill I found helpful to get it on the upswing, which apparently you don’t think much of. Hopefully you find success with your approach.
I think you are confusing the discussion.

I'm betting you could name your angle of attack with the driver right? You spend a bit of time on with a swing tracker and probably know your spin rate for the driver for different spec shafts?

Some of us don't roll that way.

Your point seems to be that if we just change who we are, how we approach the game, how we swing and what clubs we choose to swing - we too can do it the way you do it.

I wonder why everyone doesn't take this approach? Why does this thread even exist?

My guess is because as much as you want to believe that EVERYONE can do it the way you think works, you'd be very wrong.

If you played a round of golf with me, and saw that I was a better putter than you ... do you think you'd have the same approach you are advocating for the driver? I doubt it. I wouldn't think that you would copy my equipment, my practice routine, my pre-shot routine, my grip, my stroke, my mental approach ... would you?

Golf is a complex game, that does not have absolute truths.

Everyone has different expectations and different reasons for playing. Everyone has different budgets for time and money.

I think it's fine to share your experience, but a bit rich to point to the best swing in the game and say to the thread: "You could do this".

Maybe we are having a mis-communication somewhere.  The gentleman said that the driver and irons were "two different swings".  They're not.  That's all I said.  Thinking of them as two different swings because its hard is like thinking of steering a car at 20 mph as different than steering at 200 mph.  Steering at 200 mph is certainly harder, but its an identical motion.  Square is square, and the swings  - *in theory* - are identical.  I understand it isn't easy - I'm a 2 cap, not a PGA tour pro.  But making technical errors about how the swings work when done correctly makes it harder, not easier, to pull off.

i agree with you that people can take different approaches *in practice* and be successful.  But the basic statement that an iron swing and a driver swing are mutually exclusive and that there are no players this side of the tour with a good iron swing who can hit the driver is wrong.
When you say they are the same swing ... what do you mean?

The starting and finishing positions of the body are different. Your body is a different posture during the swing. The swing planes are different. The angle of attack is different. The ball position is different. What is the same? The grip?

A 3-wood off the fairway swing is a different swing to Driver off the tee swing. A Driver off the tee swing is very different to a 7-iron from the fairway swing. A flop shot is different to a chip-and-run.

Maybe you are talking about something entirely different and I am missing it?
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23

#1224 Bye

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 04:35 AM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

View Postbaldandbroke, on 13 March 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

I agree that its difficult.  A ton of golfers (myself included) have swing flaws that make the driver more difficult to hit.  But that doesn't mean its a "different swing".  Rubbish.  You just can't do it.

The idea that no amateur golfer can be good at irons and driver at the same time is kinda silly.

EDIT
Put a ball really high on the tee by your left foot.  Put a ball in the middle of your stance.  Hover your driver head and then try to hit the ball in the middle like it was an iron (but go over it), and just go through the other one (the one on the tee) to the follow-through.  Its a great way to feel it.  I'm not ben hogan or anything, but trying to develop two swings is, IMO, a really inefficient way to learn.

Rubbish? Interesting way to have a conversation.

Unless you are playing a single length set ... every one of you swings is different with every club. They all have different planes and angles of attack.

The driver swing is not the same swing as your irons, and nor should it be.

What we are talking about here is a mix of swing mechanics and psychology.

Some swings are prone to problems with certain clubs ... do you agree with that? So when you have a swing that is less than consistent with the longest / lowest loft full swing club in the bag - there will obviously need to be either:

A) a change in equipment to get a driver that minimises the bad shots

B) a change in swing mechanics

C) a change in mindset

Most of us older fellas have played with what we have for long enough to find a way to play with the swing that brought us ... and we aren't making wholesale mechanic changes at this stage of the game. It's not our job, it's a sport we play for fun. We know we aren't the best with the driver, and we have found ways around it ... but that doesn't mean we have stopped looking for better alternatives. Mentally we need to have confidence, and past experience has taught us not to trust the driver ... that is not an easy thing to fix.

The simplest and most realistic solution for me, is option (A). I'm just are trying to get rid of the horrific drives and find something that allows me to play the game. I'm not a bad golfer ... I know how to hit the ball BUT I am not going to rebuild my swing / see a sports psychologist to try and fix the 3 or 4 dead drives a round when I can just give up a little distance and play a shorter easier to hit "driver".

Throwing up examples like Adam Scott and Sergio are hilarious. Even if you are the best amateur player in the country - you are so far behind those guys it isn't funny. Comparing our attempts at golf to ANY pro is laughable.

<EDIT> Thanks for the step by step swing tips, I needed a laugh to start the day. Cheers.

People being successful using two different swings for both and\or individual golfers going after different swings for both has nothing to do with whether or not the swing can be the same. It can be. It’s very difficult, but absolutely possible.  As long as you don’t change your body dimensions and you are allowed to tee it up in different places (so the AoA changes with the same swing depending where it’s teed) you absolutely can.

I didn’t say it was easy. I said it was possible and suggested a drill I found helpful to get it on the upswing, which apparently you don’t think much of. Hopefully you find success with your approach.

I do agree with you that it is very difficult but possible to use the same move for all clubs. But I also think by doing this a lot of players are going to limit their success with either driver or their iron shots if they do so.

I have seen friends go from great drivers of the ball to terrible ones with the new tech and vice versa.

This subject interest me, I was at the point of ditching my driver because I just couldn't keep it on the course (swing flaw I know). I need to adjust my swing to be able to use a driver.
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#1225 Bubbtubbs

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 07:34 AM

View Postrawdog, on 19 July 2017 - 07:33 PM, said:

View Postchrismikayla, on 19 July 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

View Postmatthewb, on 19 July 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

View Postchrismikayla, on 19 July 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

Slightly OT but many say three wood is as long as driver. Do people really WANT their three wood to be almost as long as their driver?

Interesting that you bring this up as I was thinking the same thing this afternoon. How could someone with this problem not try to fix it?
I think my solution will be to go with a 19 hybrid as my longest club after driver.
My solution would be to learn how to hit driver better.
Right?

So many threads where people say they can't hit X so they're replacing it with Y. Seems like there are few who are willing to try to improve it instead of switching clubs.


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#1226 Stuart G.

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 07:45 AM

View PostBubbtubbs, on 14 March 2018 - 07:34 AM, said:

So many threads where people say they can't hit X so they're replacing it with Y. Seems like there are few who are willing to try to improve it instead of switching clubs.

It's really quite simple.   Swing changes take a lot of time and effort that most ams simply dont' have.   Well, there is also the fact that instant gratification is so much more appealing to most.

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#1227 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 08:56 AM

View Postbaldandbroke, on 14 March 2018 - 03:01 AM, said:

When you say they are the same swing ... what do you mean?

The starting and finishing positions of the body are different. Your body is a different posture during the swing. The swing planes are different. The angle of attack is different. The ball position is different. What is the same? The grip?

A 3-wood off the fairway swing is a different swing to Driver off the tee swing. A Driver off the tee swing is very different to a 7-iron from the fairway swing. A flop shot is different to a chip-and-run.

Maybe you are talking about something entirely different and I am missing it?

The swing is an arc - it has different angles of attack all the way around your body.  Theoretically, if you put the ball on a three foot tall tee next to your waist and way in front of you, you could hit the ball with a +40 degree angle of attack with the "same swing".  The secret to good golf is controlling and having a consistent low point of the swing - that it "bottoms out" in the same place every time.  The swing will always bottom out (like any other lever) at 90* to its axis, which in the golf swing is the line formed by your chin, sternum and belly button.  Any lever will always bottom out at 90* to its axis.  So if that line is behind the ball, you'll hit it fat.  If that line is in front of the ball, you'll get a nice, crisp iron strike - you hit just slightly down because of where the ball is positioned - the ball is just behind the axis.  If that axis line is positioned behind the ball but you allow the club to bottom out and then start back up before the strike - due to ball position - then you will have an upward AoA (its after the lowest point and starting back up) with the same swing as an iron.

The most efficient* way to control AoA is by ball position.  If you do it that way, you do not have to change anything, your impact changes because the ball is being struck on an arc beginning around your rear heel and ending about your left big toe.  Placing a ball anywhere there (on a tee or not) will produce anything from a severe downward blow (heel) to a driver upswing (high AoA).  Those with lower clubhead speed should be much more extreme in their ball position because they can hit significantly down or up based on where the ball is in their stance, not changing up their mechanics.  The other problem with this is it requires pretty high vigilance for your set up during the round, which isn't the most fun thing in the world, but a whole lot of professionals make ball position a huge part of their pre-shot routine.

There are two significant issues that stop most players from being able to do this - plane and spine angle.  Pros maintain their spine angle all the way through the swing because they don't have to manufacture angle of attack, either because they are so fast they can hit it really far hitting down (Sergio, Rahm) or they have such good mechanics that they can "hit up" just by sliding the ball forward and letting the driver just bottom out before impact (Scott).  Most really good ams, when they swing an iron, properly clear their left side low and their right side comes through the ball high - they don't do the left-up/right-down scoop move with the irons.  But then with the driver, they scoop without realizing it trying to get a positive AoA.  Second, a lot of good but not great players don't keep their clubface on the target line very long.  Professionals keep their irons on the target line for about two and a half feet - they are so on plane, that they keep the clubface facing square a foot before and after impact.  So if we think about the geometry of it, if you push the tee forward in order to catch it after the bottom and make the same swing, your face is going to be wonky at impact unless you are able to square the face early and keep it square until it exits left.  That is very difficult to do.  Most ams have a compensation somewhere where they square the face for a very short window just before and after impact.  In that case, the same swing doesn't work, because the face is no longer square when it reaches the further forward, tee'd up ball.

There are professionals, even, who have "two swings", but most don't, and it is certainly not impossible.  It is, however, difficult.

*efficient is not a synonym for only.  There are plenty of people who make it work.  Its just less efficient IMO, and its absolutely possible.

EDIT -
Let's say you have a pretty classic good player bad iron swing where you loop inside going back and outside going down, hitting virtually all cuts and fades.  You go way off plane inside on the backswing and then compensate by looping it down outside, squaring the face for just an instant before the face shuts down completely and exists sharply up and closed.  It is hopeless for you to hit a driver with that swing.  If you move the tee forward to catch it on the upswing, you'll hit snap hooks and massive pushes for days.  But its not because its an "iron swing" its because its a really off plane iron swing that you've grooved over years of practice to be able to get away with.

Probably a better way to say it is you can't hit driver with a bad iron swing that you've made work by practicing timing over years and years.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 14 March 2018 - 09:02 AM.

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#1228 baldandbroke

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 04:44 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 14 March 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:


The swing is an arc - it has different angles of attack all the way around your body.  Theoretically, if you put the ball on a three foot tall tee next to your waist and way in front of you, you could hit the ball with a +40 degree angle of attack with the "same swing".  The secret to good golf is controlling and having a consistent low point of the swing - that it "bottoms out" in the same place every time.  The swing will always bottom out (like any other lever) at 90* to its axis, which in the golf swing is the line formed by your chin, sternum and belly button.  Any lever will always bottom out at 90* to its axis.  So if that line is behind the ball, you'll hit it fat.  If that line is in front of the ball, you'll get a nice, crisp iron strike - you hit just slightly down because of where the ball is positioned - the ball is just behind the axis.  If that axis line is positioned behind the ball but you allow the club to bottom out and then start back up before the strike - due to ball position - then you will have an upward AoA (its after the lowest point and starting back up) with the same swing as an iron.

The most efficient* way to control AoA is by ball position.  If you do it that way, you do not have to change anything, your impact changes because the ball is being struck on an arc beginning around your rear heel and ending about your left big toe.  Placing a ball anywhere there (on a tee or not) will produce anything from a severe downward blow (heel) to a driver upswing (high AoA).  Those with lower clubhead speed should be much more extreme in their ball position because they can hit significantly down or up based on where the ball is in their stance, not changing up their mechanics.  The other problem with this is it requires pretty high vigilance for your set up during the round, which isn't the most fun thing in the world, but a whole lot of professionals make ball position a huge part of their pre-shot routine.

There are two significant issues that stop most players from being able to do this - plane and spine angle.  Pros maintain their spine angle all the way through the swing because they don't have to manufacture angle of attack, either because they are so fast they can hit it really far hitting down (Sergio, Rahm) or they have such good mechanics that they can "hit up" just by sliding the ball forward and letting the driver just bottom out before impact (Scott).  Most really good ams, when they swing an iron, properly clear their left side low and their right side comes through the ball high - they don't do the left-up/right-down scoop move with the irons.  But then with the driver, they scoop without realizing it trying to get a positive AoA.  Second, a lot of good but not great players don't keep their clubface on the target line very long.  Professionals keep their irons on the target line for about two and a half feet - they are so on plane, that they keep the clubface facing square a foot before and after impact.  So if we think about the geometry of it, if you push the tee forward in order to catch it after the bottom and make the same swing, your face is going to be wonky at impact unless you are able to square the face early and keep it square until it exits left.  That is very difficult to do.  Most ams have a compensation somewhere where they square the face for a very short window just before and after impact.  In that case, the same swing doesn't work, because the face is no longer square when it reaches the further forward, tee'd up ball.

There are professionals, even, who have "two swings", but most don't, and it is certainly not impossible.  It is, however, difficult.

*efficient is not a synonym for only.  There are plenty of people who make it work.  Its just less efficient IMO, and its absolutely possible.

EDIT -
Let's say you have a pretty classic good player bad iron swing where you loop inside going back and outside going down, hitting virtually all cuts and fades.  You go way off plane inside on the backswing and then compensate by looping it down outside, squaring the face for just an instant before the face shuts down completely and exists sharply up and closed.  It is hopeless for you to hit a driver with that swing.  If you move the tee forward to catch it on the upswing, you'll hit snap hooks and massive pushes for days.  But its not because its an "iron swing" its because its a really off plane iron swing that you've grooved over years of practice to be able to get away with.

Probably a better way to say it is you can't hit driver with a bad iron swing that you've made work by practicing timing over years and years.

"Professionals keep their irons on the target line for about two and a half feet - they are so on plane, that they keep the clubface facing square a foot before and after impact"

What? I don't know how you think that would happen.

https://www.golftips...pact-is-a-myth/

Here's some pictures from Brad Hughes's site that show a few guys with awful spine angle changes, angles of attack and head movement:

jacktilt.jpg

leetr3.jpg

mnknee.jpg

player3.jpg

http://www.bradleyhu...ons/swing-myths

Good luck with whichever method you are employing. I've seen them all before ... The Golf Machine / Square to Square / Single plane theory ... I personally don't think any of them will lead me to the promised land!!

I play once a week and move between a 3 and 6 handicap throughout the year. I can go through patches where I struggle off the tee with modern drivers ...  Hell, my goto driver is a short Titleist 975d at 8.5 degrees with an S300 shaft! Why do I then bother with any of this new fangled stuff? Well ... I guess I'm guilty of a bit of "the grass is greener on the other side", like most golfers :-)
DRIVER: TEE CB4 Tour, 9', Aldila RIP 60 Stiff @ 45"
FAIRWAY: TEE CB3 Tour, 15', Fujikura Motore Tour 80 Stiff @ 43"
HYBRID: TEE CB3 Tour, 22', Fujikura Motore 80 Stiff @ 42"
IRONS: Mizuno MP-H4 - 5-PW, DGS300
WEDGES: Cleveland RTX-3 CB Wedges, 52, 58
PUTTER: Cleveland Classic Collection Belly 400g @ 38", Flat Cat Standard
BAG: Cobra Ultralight 18, Peacoat / Red
BALL: SEED SD-01

28

#1229 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 05:27 PM

View Postbaldandbroke, on 14 March 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 14 March 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:


The swing is an arc - it has different angles of attack all the way around your body.  Theoretically, if you put the ball on a three foot tall tee next to your waist and way in front of you, you could hit the ball with a +40 degree angle of attack with the "same swing".  The secret to good golf is controlling and having a consistent low point of the swing - that it "bottoms out" in the same place every time.  The swing will always bottom out (like any other lever) at 90* to its axis, which in the golf swing is the line formed by your chin, sternum and belly button.  Any lever will always bottom out at 90* to its axis.  So if that line is behind the ball, you'll hit it fat.  If that line is in front of the ball, you'll get a nice, crisp iron strike - you hit just slightly down because of where the ball is positioned - the ball is just behind the axis.  If that axis line is positioned behind the ball but you allow the club to bottom out and then start back up before the strike - due to ball position - then you will have an upward AoA (its after the lowest point and starting back up) with the same swing as an iron.

The most efficient* way to control AoA is by ball position.  If you do it that way, you do not have to change anything, your impact changes because the ball is being struck on an arc beginning around your rear heel and ending about your left big toe.  Placing a ball anywhere there (on a tee or not) will produce anything from a severe downward blow (heel) to a driver upswing (high AoA).  Those with lower clubhead speed should be much more extreme in their ball position because they can hit significantly down or up based on where the ball is in their stance, not changing up their mechanics.  The other problem with this is it requires pretty high vigilance for your set up during the round, which isn't the most fun thing in the world, but a whole lot of professionals make ball position a huge part of their pre-shot routine.

There are two significant issues that stop most players from being able to do this - plane and spine angle.  Pros maintain their spine angle all the way through the swing because they don't have to manufacture angle of attack, either because they are so fast they can hit it really far hitting down (Sergio, Rahm) or they have such good mechanics that they can "hit up" just by sliding the ball forward and letting the driver just bottom out before impact (Scott).  Most really good ams, when they swing an iron, properly clear their left side low and their right side comes through the ball high - they don't do the left-up/right-down scoop move with the irons.  But then with the driver, they scoop without realizing it trying to get a positive AoA.  Second, a lot of good but not great players don't keep their clubface on the target line very long.  Professionals keep their irons on the target line for about two and a half feet - they are so on plane, that they keep the clubface facing square a foot before and after impact.  So if we think about the geometry of it, if you push the tee forward in order to catch it after the bottom and make the same swing, your face is going to be wonky at impact unless you are able to square the face early and keep it square until it exits left.  That is very difficult to do.  Most ams have a compensation somewhere where they square the face for a very short window just before and after impact.  In that case, the same swing doesn't work, because the face is no longer square when it reaches the further forward, tee'd up ball.

There are professionals, even, who have "two swings", but most don't, and it is certainly not impossible.  It is, however, difficult.

*efficient is not a synonym for only.  There are plenty of people who make it work.  Its just less efficient IMO, and its absolutely possible.

EDIT -
Let's say you have a pretty classic good player bad iron swing where you loop inside going back and outside going down, hitting virtually all cuts and fades.  You go way off plane inside on the backswing and then compensate by looping it down outside, squaring the face for just an instant before the face shuts down completely and exists sharply up and closed.  It is hopeless for you to hit a driver with that swing.  If you move the tee forward to catch it on the upswing, you'll hit snap hooks and massive pushes for days.  But its not because its an "iron swing" its because its a really off plane iron swing that you've grooved over years of practice to be able to get away with.

Probably a better way to say it is you can't hit driver with a bad iron swing that you've made work by practicing timing over years and years.

"Professionals keep their irons on the target line for about two and a half feet - they are so on plane, that they keep the clubface facing square a foot before and after impact"

What? I don't know how you think that would happen.

https://www.golftips...pact-is-a-myth/

Here's some pictures from Brad Hughes's site that show a few guys with awful spine angle changes, angles of attack and head movement:

jacktilt.jpg

leetr3.jpg

mnknee.jpg

player3.jpg

http://www.bradleyhu...ons/swing-myths

Good luck with whichever method you are employing. I've seen them all before ... The Golf Machine / Square to Square / Single plane theory ... I personally don't think any of them will lead me to the promised land!!

I play once a week and move between a 3 and 6 handicap throughout the year. I can go through patches where I struggle off the tee with modern drivers ...  Hell, my goto driver is a short Titleist 975d at 8.5 degrees with an S300 shaft! Why do I then bother with any of this new fangled stuff? Well ... I guess I'm guilty of a bit of "the grass is greener on the other side", like most golfers :-)

Square doesn’t mean “pointing at”, that would be ridiculous. If the clubface is dead parallel to the the target line at the top of the backswing when the shaft is exactly horizontal, it’s square. The shaft is at an angle at address, and the face is square at address. As you go back the shaft angle changes so the face no longer points at the target *but it points square in relation to the shaft as the shaft changes it’s angle*. If the face is dead parallel when the shaft is exactly horizontal, that is a square clubface and no compensations are required on the way down. Most pros have stopped any compensations they may have about two feet before impact. Most amateurs are still compensating as they get within inches of the ball.

Obviously I don’t mean the face is literally square to the ball-target line for two feet. You’d have to be twelve feet tall to hit a ball like that. I mean it’s square to the shaft angle - square as it rotates around you.  Longer shaft = harder to compensate for a swing that squares late.
aeroburner tp 9.5* diamana blue 53 x-flex
rescue dual 14* 19* burner 23* tour blue 65 x-flex
j40 5-pw s300
sm6 50* 55* sm5 60* s300

29

#1230 bladehunter

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 08:19 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 13 March 2018 - 12:39 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 13 March 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

View Postbaldandbroke, on 06 March 2018 - 04:37 PM, said:

I'm in the group that will hide behind other clubs if I have a weakness in my bag.

As a low-ish handicapper that may seem strange, but even when I played off scratch ... it was the double / triple bogey from the dead-awful drives that would ruin my round more often than a missed iron or putt. I once shot 1-over where I had two eagles, three birdies, two triples and a double - the rest pars!! I once had 29 / 43 for a 2 over par 72 :-)

Funnily enough, people that play with me think I'm a good driver of the ball ... but I think that's because in my older age I just minimise my mistakes off the tee. Over the years I've had a Callaway Deuce Big Bertha / Ping Eye 2+ 1-iron / Mizuno FliHi MP 2 iron / Louisville Persimmon Thumper Driver / Callaway Strong 4+ all become my "go to" club off the tee because I could take out the horrible drive.

When I play a full length bombing driver, it only takes one really bad drive for me to lose confidence in it and fall back to the next club in the bag.

My most recent attempt at finding a club that I can rely on is working so far ... the Callaway XR 3-Deep at 14 degrees has not given me ANY of those dreadful snap hook or blow-out pushes that I tend to produce with the 45 inch varieties AND I'm not really losing a lot of distance. I can actually hit it lower than I can hit most drivers if needed, and on those longer Par 5s that I want to have a go at in two - well, if I hit a good drive to the right spot, it is the perfect club to have a real go at the second shot :-)

I guess the main thing I want in my "driver" is I want to be looking for a reason to hit it, not the other way around.

A common mistake I see is trying to hit the club off the tee as far as you can, rather than having a distance you are aiming for like you do with almost EVERY other shot on the course. I find that having a less than "bomber" driver helps me with that mentality.


This describes my Driver to a T. I've too had the 4-5 under 9 holes only to give them all back on the next 9. Aways Driver.  

Serious question to all.  Can you name a player that is considered a great driver of the ball and is also great with a 3 wood and irons who isn't on TV?   I have utmost confidence in irons and 3 wood. Yet Driver is so fickle.  Usually when you see s guy who is confident with Driver and he will hit Driver bunts vs 3 wood and the hole in his game will be iron play.  But someone who covers the ball well and hits down on irons and 3 wood rarely hits Driver well.  Stupid game.

I don't get it.  Did you not hit driver for the first 9 holes?  Why does the Driver get all the blame for "giving them all back" and none of the credit for putting you 4-5 under?

Unless your course is 3000 yards on the front and 4500 yards on the back, it sounds like a mental issue with being 4-5 under, not a driver issue.


truth is my home course requires 2 drivers on the front from me from the back tees...both par 5s.. its a tight positional course.... on the back i hit 5 drivers if im feeling good... 3-4 if i dont feel in control...  so yes i can directly attribute the loss of strokes to tee balls with driver...  the front 9 includes a par 3 that plays from 205-219 depending on hole location and thats with dead calm wind.. its a beast when cold and into the wind... it includes 2 sharp dogleg par 4s i hit 3 iron to the dogleg and am left with 150-185 in... ( depending on quality if iron off tee).... so yes my iron, wedge and putting game is solid... driver costs me quite often... yet ill keep hitting it because its statistically better to on a 400-450 yard par 4...


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